The Game Changers

Sue Campbell – The power of authentic leadership

• Sue Anstiss • Season 21 • Episode 8

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“When I first walked into the FA, I felt completely out of place - like an alien at someone else’s party. The culture was so unfamiliar that I doubted whether I belonged at all. But by finding allies and quietly building a team who believed in change, I realised I could make an impact.”

Baroness Sue Campbell is one of the most influential leaders in British sport, a woman whose entire career has been driven by a single mission: to use sport to change lives. Recorded live at the Leaders in Sport 2025 Summit, this conversation revisits her extraordinary impact at the FA, her pivotal role in the Lionesses’ Euro 2022 triumph and her new chapter chairing England Netball.

She talks openly about resilience rooted in moral purpose and the power of authentic leadership. We explore how staying focused on her mission, and not personal ego, has carried her through moments of doubt, sexism and deep personal challenge.

Sue speaks movingly about the Lionesses’ journey, working with Sarina Wiegman and the unforgettable night at Wembley when years of pressure and self-doubt melted into joy. 

But she also warns of the current “illusion” of success in women’s sport, urging urgent investment in the ‘missing middle’ - the semi-professional pathways that must be strengthened if young women are truly to build sustainable careers in sport.

Now leading England Netball, Sue shares her passion for growing the sport’s profile and protecting the unique culture that makes women’s sport so special - community, safety, authenticity and connection.

Her message for future leaders is clear and compelling: stay authentic, find your purpose, learn relentlessly and never underestimate the power of one determined individual to change the world.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Sue Campbell:

All the pain, all the anxiety, all the pressure, all the moments when I thought, oh my god, self-doubt, all the feelings of inadequacy sometimes working in the air for like that moment was worth all of that.

Sue Anstiss:

Baroness Sue Campbell is one of the most respected and influential figures in British sport. It was my privilege to speak to Sue in 2020 for series three of The Game Changers podcast, and I was thrilled to welcome her back for this episode, which was recorded live at the Leaders in Sport 2025 Summit in London. Sue's leadership has spanned the Youth Sport Trust, UK Sport, and the FA, where she was pivotal in driving the professionalisation of women's football, the rise of the Women's Super League, and the Lioness's journey to inspiring a nation. Sue is now chair of England Netball, helping to steer the sport into an exciting new professional era. A life pivot in the House of Lords, Sue's impact extends far beyond the pitch or court, shaping policy, inspiring change, and mentoring the next generation of leaders across British sport. I started by asking Sue to look back on eight years as director of women's football at the FA and to share some of the achievements she's most proud of.

Sue Campbell:

Yeah, I think perhaps I'd sooner start with why did I go? Because I'd been at UK Sport, we'd taken Great Britain to be the most successful Olympic and Paralympic nation in the world for our population size. I was aging and I thought it was time to go and get the golf clubs out. But I always say I've had lots of roles, but we've only ever had one mission, and that was born in my first teaching job in Mothside, Manchester, where I realized because sport had been my life. I I didn't realise it was a vehicle, I thought it was an end in itself. And then when I worked with young people in Mothside who had very little hope and had some very big challenges that I didn't I'd never encountered before, I realized that I could use sport to change their lives. And so every step I've gone along the way, whatever the job has been, the mission has been clear in my head. And my mission has more always been about getting more girls and women, not just to play sport, but to develop through sport. And when I was approached to ask if I would be interested in the FA, I actually said no. I finished, I'm I'm going to the golf course. And then, of course, I go to bed at night and I start thinking, wow, if you could do something with football, if you could change people's perceptions of this national game of ours, that it's actually accessible by women, and that girls can excel as players, as coaches, as referees. I just wonder if you could change not just the lives of the players, but could you change the lives of girls in society? So that's why I took the job with this huge ambition in my head that by transforming girls and women's football in the FA, maybe I could improve the lives of girls and women generally in society. So having got into the FA, I have to say I initially struggled. The culture was, let me say, not one I was familiar with. I think you have to be respectful that men's football had been around a long time. The analogy I've used is it's like going to a party in somebody else's house, and you go in and it's well underway, it's been going a long time, in the case of men's football, hundreds of years, and you go in and you're standing in the kitchen thinking, I'm not too sure this is for me. And you have two choices, haven't you? One is you decide it's not for you, and I did, I did think that through. And the other is you get the biggest glass of white wine you can find, and you go and sit in a corner, and you don't throw the things around in the kitchen because that's not going to change anything except make them think you're not somebody to be listened to. But you go and sit in the corner and you draw towards you the people who understand that you operate differently, and that's not how you're going to be. And very interestingly, a lot of people come to your corner because they too are uncomfortable, but perhaps haven't quite got the nerve to get the big glass of white wine and sit in the corner. And so I think that first impact was huge for me at the FA.

Sue Anstiss:

And how long did it take for you in that corner? But how long were you at the FA until you realised, yeah, I do fit in here, I can have an impact, I'm gonna make change.

Sue Campbell:

It took a while. I had a very good chief executive, Martin Glenn, who wanted things to change, and he said I had the reputation of being highly disruptive, and that's why he wanted me to disrupt. It was just thinking through how to disrupt what was so set, and I decided with Martin that we wouldn't set up a women's division in the football association, we would get some feisty women in each division of the FA, and I would matrix manage them, so they would be kind of my soldiers, but they'd be deployed in each of the divisions, and we agreed that we would find people who were not just experts in what they did, but had a bit of um feisty personality in order that we could really challenge the status quo, so we could change women's football, but we could challenge the status quo of what was going on. Um, so that team really was the beginning of starting to change things, and it probably took me a year to get the team in place that I wanted. You know, one of the great things I'd say about leading is you're only as good as your team, you know, and and the greatest strength you have as a leader is knowing what your greatest weaknesses are, and putting people around you who are better than you are, and once you've got that team, then anything's possible, frankly.

Sue Anstiss:

And as you look back now, are there any clearly there's so much that was achieved, so much that changed. But as you kind of sit and look back, what are the really key things that shifted in that time and have impacted now?

Sue Campbell:

I think I think I'm proudest of the team. I'm proudest of the fact that many of them who some of the people who were already in the FA were very capable but hadn't been given a platform. So it was good to be able to. Kay Cossington would be a good example of that. You know, she was working as a talent scout, she ended up as the first ever technical director of women's football. So that gave me joy, and I I, you know, I'm still fundamentally a coach. I love watching people grow and develop. And one of the great things I think, again, of leadership is that you leave something better than you found it, and that doesn't mean you, it means you grow people who can take it on and beyond. So I sat with a lovely smile on my face listening to Sue Day. Not that I had any uh help in her growth, but to listen to her talk, it just feels wonderful to have passed the bat into somebody who I know has the same passion and commitment and drive that I had. So I think growing the people was really important. I think I took over the England team. I wasn't that wasn't in my remit when I started in 2016. I took that over in 2017, um, and I met this incredible group of women whose passion, desire to win was sort of burnt a hole through you. You only had to sit and talk to the Lucy's and the Millies and the Scotties, and you could kind of feel this desire, but they weren't surrounded with the right support to make that possible. That performance area always takes longer than other things. But the joy of you know, winning the Euros in 22 is one will never leave me. And and I remember walking down onto the pitch, and obviously, you know, I I was very central to recruiting Serena. When Serena started in September 21, I remember saying to her, I don't expect you to be a miracle worker. And she was, you know, technically I was her boss. You know, I'll put that to one second because Serena doesn't really have one. Um, but technically on paper, I was her boss. Um and and I said, I don't expect to be a miracle worker, you know. You you've got nine months, but you've got this group of players whose desire is so strong, whose commitment is so strong if you give them the right platform. And she she just nodded at me, you know. I don't know if she took a word in, I said, but she went off and did her thing. And I remember going down onto the pitch, and she walked over to me with her arms open and her eyes wide, and she said, What did I just do? And I said, You are a miracle worker, and you've done something exceptional for this country, let alone for football. And then I turned and Chloe, who is now famous or infamous, probably, was running at me from about I don't know, 20 yards away, and I was thinking, My God, she's gonna throw herself at me. And I've braced myself, thinking I'm never gonna, and she hit me full pelt. I staggered two steps back, but fortunately I managed to stay on my feet. And there's this lovely picture of her hanging round me, screaming things in my ear, like, you know, we did it so, and it was just wonderful, right? Those, you know, all the pain, all the anxiety, all the pressure, all the moments when I thought, oh my god, self-doubt, all the feelings of inadequacy sometimes working in the FA, that moment was worth all of that.

Sue Anstiss:

And how did you deal with those moments? The the not so positive, then perhaps not being able to always get things across that you wanted to get what I wanted. Yeah, how do you but how do you deal with that personally as a leader in that?

Sue Campbell:

Um I think resilience comes, and this is gonna sound a bit ground, but I think resilience comes from your moral purpose. Alright, so no job I've ever done is about me. Because that moment at Moss Side, I realized I was merely a vehicle to help women be what they wanted to be. And when those moments hit you, and sometimes you know, you've made a mistake or you've not seen an opportunity, or whatever it is. So, in a way, you do have to take responsibility, but you have to keep reminding yourself what is the mission. Great leaders are not people who are obsessed about themselves, they're obsessed about the journey they're trying to lead. You know, Gandhi, all these people that you look at, Nelson Mandela, these are extraordinary figures. Mother Teresa, you know, people who had a cause and a purpose, had unbelievable setbacks. You know, Nelson Mandela was in prison for 27 years. Mahatna Gandhi nearly starved himself to death, but the cause was big enough that the person could go through that and still come out with decency and values and honesty about what they were trying to do. So I've always been really clear, I'm not in this for me, I'm in this. Can I? I don't and again, this sounds a bit grand, but can I change the world? And so this setback I can deal with because I can push again, I can go again. If it takes if you take it personally, then it becomes very heavy to carry. And when things go wrong, it does feel very personal, but you've got to be able to keep putting it out there in front of you and going, yeah, I'm hurting right now, but that isn't going to stop me finishing the mission. So I I think resilience and sheer damn determination, other two qualities, I'd say I've probably got an abundance.

Sue Anstiss:

And and so for future leaders, do you think that's something that having that North Star, that passion, that goal, that people can not impose on themselves but go and find that? Is that something that a great leader needs, do you feel?

Sue Campbell:

Yeah, I I think you have to find your North Star. And and you know, to begin with, the first 20 years of my life, my North Star was playing sport. You know, I was lucky enough to play for England under 21s, and I became a coach and an umpire. But it was those moments in Moss Side when I I saw things. I mean, I grew up two working, you know, working class mum and dad. I thought it was a normal home, but you know, I had two people who loved me. I had a sister who tormented the hell out of me. But you know, I had what was I I thought was normal food on the table, holidays, and then I met these young women whose lives were already unbelievably challenging and had very different challenges to anything I'd ever experienced. And I was gonna teach them netball, it kind of felt irrelevant. So, all that time I'd trained to be a teacher, and then I I suddenly realized that teaching wasn't about the subject, it was about finding that magic spark in kids that you can find if you listen. And I had to learn to listen really well to these young women and then ignite a spark in them, whether it was through dance or whatever it was. And the objective wasn't that they became dancers or great athletes, the objective was that they became people with pride and confidence and could stand a little bit taller in the world and could go on and do great things. One of the women I will always remember was a young woman called Clarion. And, you know, she was considered by most to be the worst, you know, those were the languages that was the language who's the worst, the most disruptive, the most dangerous person in school. And through, I won't tell you the story, it's too long, but through listening, through understanding, through connecting with her, I realized that leading a gang and leading positively is not that far apart, actually. And she loved to dance, and I wasn't very good at it. Well, I like to dance, but I'm not really good at teaching it. Um she became a better teacher than me. And did she go on to do dance? No. She left school with very little of no qualifications, essentially went into FE college and spent her lifetime in the health service. Now, you know, does that matter? Yes, it does, because it means sport can truly change your life, and it's not just about producing champions and medal winners, as wonderful as that is, and as great a platform that is to show young people what's possible. It's what you do with sport in developing those people that don't have hope, that have a sense of despair. And I I believe in football, we've managed to do to ignite that light in many kids, and hopefully, whether they become great footballers is less relevant to me than whether they become great people.

Sue Anstiss:

It's fantastic to hear, isn't it? And that growth, that grassroots, the kind of social purpose of sport, but you also had a huge impact at the FA in terms of the WSL, that growth of the professionalism and the commercial element of sport, too. So I I just kind of wonder as we look now, and I mean I do remember having a number of conversations with you at the time around we need to make this sustainable and it's a long-term piece. So, again, when you look now to where WSL 1 and WSL2 are, do you feel you kind of got that right in the planning of does it feel like it is in a sustainable place?

Sue Campbell:

Um look, I I I I think, and uh talking to Sue Day this morning as we were walking down from uh from the station, these wonderful showcase moments. I mean, the brilliance of the red roses here last weekend and the tournament, and the brilliance of the women at the Euros, and the brilliance of our netball players, you know, who did brilliantly in the World Cup and won the Commonwealth Games a few years ago. They're fantastic, but they are almost an illusion that the women's games are okay. We're not okay. The reason that that platform is okay is because the RFU have invested in women's rugby, the FA invested heavily in the women's football, cricket, similarly. But when you go to the next tier, when you go to those leagues, those professional leagues, and we're all now meeting together because we realise we're all struggling with the same issue, it's a big problem because we can't get the investment, we can't get the commercial leverage we need to grow that platform so that young women can play professionally. So the illusion, if you like, of the success at the top can actually work against us. And I think Sue said in her session this morning the grassroots piece is going well, and I'd I'd say that's true in in most of our sports, because the showroom, the showcase, the shop window, as I call it, uh attracts girls to come in. But if there isn't that really concrete pathway and the opportunity to play at a professional level, then in a way we're we're we're fooling people into an illusion that doesn't come to anything. And that's the area that we all have got to, we're all struggling with, and we've all got to find a solution to. And I'm not sure the solutions are the same for each of us in football, cricket, rugby, and netball, but we are all looking at that that professional tier and that talent pathway, and how we make sure that the youngster whose light is lit by what they see and who has the talent, the determination, and the courage, and all that it goes to get up that ladder, that that ladder is secure, and when they go for the rung, it doesn't give way. That's got to be our next ambition, and I think that's true for all of us, and those professional leagues are challenging. I mean, the Super League one is sustained massively by the investment from men's football clubs. Super League Two is less secured that way and struggles, and the gap starts to grow so that the notion of relegation and promotion gets more difficult. And in in America, leagues are closed. So you only have you know 10 franchises or 12 franchises. There's no promotion and relegation because sitting underneath it is this amazing student system. We don't have that. We've got to sustain promotion and relegation, but we've got to find a way of lifting the tiers below up, and that's still a massive job for the women's game and the future of women's sport. Because I wonder what'll happen when we don't win the World Cup and when we don't win the Euros, and when and suddenly people stop investing in that top bit. So we've got to capitalise now, and we've got to help encourage commercial investors to see the value in helping to build that infrastructure between grassroots, which I re I believe is relatively healthy, and the top, which is clearly healthy, that bit in the middle, and of course, that's the most difficult thing to invest in if you want brand awareness because it's not visible. You know, either you've got large numbers at the bottom or you've got great visibility at the top. In the middle, you've got neither of those, so it's harder to get investment. But that's where the real challenge is, and it's it's a massive challenge for all of the semi-professional, come professional leagues, rugby, you know, that they are struggling at that league level, just as football is and and netball is.

Sue Anstiss:

Um, I think it's no secret that I'm not a massive fan of men's football. But how can women's football retain that lovely identity that we talk about and kind of overcome engaging some of the negative elements of the men's game and uh or are we too late, do you feel?

Sue Campbell:

No, not too late, never too late. We we started a piece of work, which I was pleased to hear Sue say this morning, she's continuing, which is it was something about how do we retain the culture of the women's game. And she said this morning that have we defined that really carefully? Do we really know what we mean? We know what we feel. If you go to a women's big game, you feel different because there is a warmth and a, you know, there aren't people throwing beer cans around, and there aren't people swearing endlessly, and there aren't people singing provocative songs to the other end of the bitch. There is a warmth and a welcome, but we're still learning about women's fans. You know, who are these people that are coming to women's sport? Do they come for the same reasons, or do they come to be part of a community, a movement for women? You know, I I talked to a couple of the American clubs when we were looking at the Super League and how we were going to form the professional league, which was my last job after we'd won the Euros, was that's what Mark asked me to do. And I I went over, and one particular club, I won't name them because it's not replied, um, they don't win anything, but they fill the stadium every week. And you're going, hang on, I don't get this. Because the logic is you come to watch people play well and they don't. So I was thinking, why are they coming? And then they talk to me about their attitude to the community within which they work. So they get sponsorship and they'll put some of it very visibly into the local food banks, or they'll put it somewhere somewhere else, and they have a connection with people in their community, so that people come to feel part of something, a community. That isn't why a lot of men go to sport. They're tribal, they go because their dad did and their uncle did. And being tribal is not always a bad thing. It means you go even in poor weather, and you go even if they're not very good. That isn't why women go to sport. They're drawn very much more by individuals, by icons. That's why our players are so critical to us. But they're also drawn by this sense of being part of something that feels welcoming, safe, wholesome, fun, enjoyable. We've got to capture that, understand it, and keep working at it. I think it it will be more challenging as more commercial money comes into sports, not to let it drift in that direction. But right now, the authenticity of our players, the decency of the people who play our games, they won't let that happen because they still remember what it was like when they were young and had to fight to play the sport they loved. I wonder as the next generation comes through, if that might change a bit, but I won't be around probably, so that won't make a lot of difference.

Sue Anstiss:

You recently took on, it's not that recent actually. When did you take on the chair role in Canadian?

Sue Campbell:

Well, there we go again, you see. A guy's going to the golf clubs. Yeah, I'd polished them, I had actually got them out and cleaned them off, and I'd gone and bought myself some new balls and a new driver, and I haven't used it once. Um when young Fran, is she in the room? Yes, your fault. Uh yeah. Fran rang me and said, Um, Fran is the chief executive of England Netball and very brilliant as well. Um, and rang me and said, uh, we're looking for a new chair. And I I sort of said, No, no, no, no. And then she rang me again and I go, Well, maybe. And then she rang me again. I said, Oh, okay then. So here I am. I started in January um as chair of England Netball.

Sue Anstiss:

Did it feel like coming home? Because that's where you'd started you. Did you say an amazing?

Sue Campbell:

Yeah, in many ways it did. Yeah, because I obviously I wasn't allowed to play football as a youngster. I loved it, my goodness. I practiced and practiced, and I was the best centre forward in the primary school. I scored all the goals, and I didn't realise I went to secondary school saying, Oh, girls don't play football. And I went, no, I've got to. So I had to play netball and hockey. Um, having said that, netball always spoke to me. There was something about, and this might sound ridiculous, there was something about flying through the air and catching a ball. I perhaps should have been a goalkeeper at football, but there was something about that that I just love, that kind of physicality, the athleticism of it, or most of the beauty of it. We were talking about it earlier, weren't we? There's a beauty to it that's very athletic, but it has an elegance and a beauty, which I I I remember. And yes, so coming home to netball has been great. I mean, the hard bit is somebody who looks even older than I am says to me, I remember you training me as a coach, and I'm going, oh no. Um, so I've I've been around rather rather too long, probably. But yeah, I'm really enjoying it. Very different set of challenges to football.

Sue Anstiss:

And obviously, participation we know is is huge in terms of netball, but how do we take that grassroots element and translate that into more commercial numbers in terms of the investment, the elite profile, the awareness of a sport? I I know you've got lots of challenges, but that feels like a fundamental one for netball.

Sue Campbell:

Yeah, I think when you first go into a job, any job, and you know, in my case, at a level where I was given the grace of good time to think, I think the most important thing is to listen again. You know, I I learned that from Moss's side, and I've never let it's never left me. Listen and learn. Don't think you know. Because having played the sport and having been in sport all my life, it would have been very easy to think I know, and I didn't. And uh I went out, met with grassroots, went to see the roses, talked to Jess, who was our head coach, spent time with a lot of time with Fran trying to explain everything to me, um, getting out and about so that I could have a sense of where we were, not just because knowing where to go, creating a vision of where you're going, is not just about logic, it's also about feel. So I often say when I go into a job, I know there's a mountain there, but it's covered in mist. Because right now I don't know enough to know what the mountain should look like, or even more importantly, how you get up it. So I think you know, there was a lot, and there has been a lot of great work done by Fran and the team. You know, our adventure strategies is excellent. There's a lot of really good work. We had three over three million girls and women playing our sport. So it's it isn't about what can I do to change some of the things I had to change in football, it's a different set of issues, a different set of challenges and and problems. And one of the things is most people don't know what netball is, I mean, profile-wise, it's amazing how many times I go into a meeting with somebody and they say, 'Oh, yeah, I brought so and so she's a netball player.' So there's millions of them around, but actually, the profile of the game is not at a level where investors can see value. So, first thing Fran and I and team are doing is building profiles. So, as of November the second, we'll have a weekly newsletter in part of the Telegraph newspaper, which will start to give people more awareness of who we are and what we are. We've done an agreement with Hearst magazines, which are Cosmopolitan and L and others, to try and raise the profile of our wonderful players and who they are, and the fact that they're very authentic, just like the footballers and rugby players. That's what makes women's sport really different right now is the authenticity of the people who play it and coach it and referee and umpirate. So lots of very different challenges to deal with.

Sue Anstiss:

And we are hearing more at the moment about potential Olympic inclusion. Do you feel that could be transformational for the sport, or can the sport thrive and succeed without that? The sport will thrive and succeed without that.

Sue Campbell:

And I have no doubts about that. I think Fran and I were talking on the way, we went out to watch the under 21s World Championship in Gibraltar. Don't ever, by the way, go to Gibraltar in bad weather, it is dire. You should have seen us trying to get out of Gibraltar was the miracle. But anyway, we're here. And we were talking about you know, things aren't easy, and they're not. But we both absolutely know we've got something really special here, and it will happen, and we will make it happen. Whether or not we get the Olympics, yes, of course, being part of the Olympics is great for once every four years, of course. It's not being in the Olympics, it's what you do with the profile the Olympics gives you. It's the thing I always say to the players winning is wonderful. At that moment, it's wonderful, but it's gone in a flash. It's what you do with the platform it gives you. And you remember the thing I said to you, I was proudest of was after we won the Euros in 22. Of course, that is a special moment for families, for everybody's ever coached you or knows you or thinks they know you. It's a special moment, but the most special moment for me was the next day on the bus. We had a very long party the night after the Euros. I don't think we went to bed. Not as long, by the way, as the rugby players have had, by the way. But they're still partying, I was surprised they weren't here. Um but but the we had a great party. I danced with Serena's father. You know, don't ever do that if you ever come across him because he broke every toe on my both feet. And the next day we're on the bus, the fumes are enormous coming from the back of the bus, which is where the players are sitting. You could have got drunk on the fumes. And uh I get a tap on my shoulder, and it's Leah and Lotta. And I say, somebody ill said, No, we want you to come back of the bus. I said, Oh Lord, what? So go to the back of the bus. They said, We don't want. Our legacy to just be winning the Euros. And I sat there and I just thought how incredibly special is that moment. You've just won the first major football tournament in the country since 1966, and that's not what you want to be remembered for. You want to be remembered for how you use the platform. And they said, You've told us over and over again it's the platform, and this is the moment. And here's what we want to do. We want to make sure no girl ever struggles to play our game again. We wrote to we had two prime ministers at the time. We wrote to both of them. Uh, one didn't last very long, and then the other one gave us what we asked for. So I I think being in the Olympics would be terrific, but it's how we'd use it. What do we use that? Because I'm not sure, it might get in because it's Brisbane and it's Australia, and it might go in as a test event because of Australians' love of netball. But what we'd have to think carefully about is how do we use that moment to help us here drive our game to another level? Because that's that's what we were passionate about here.

Sue Anstiss:

And we talked to me about that that tier beneath the big national and international events and between the grassroots. So for Netball, the Netball Super League, I'm super proud to be on the board of London Mavericks, and I've kind of witnessed this gradual transformation towards professionalism. But what are your personal ultimate goals? Where do you think the Netball Super League could get to in the next 10 years or so?

Sue Campbell:

Look, I would want all the women's professional leagues, that's rugby, football, cricket, if that happens, netball. I'd want them all to be a place where young women with the aspiration to be a professional player can go and get a salary that is commensurate with good living. And I don't mean I don't mean high living, I mean good living. So that has to be our objective. We if we start where we always have to start, which is with the players, they are our first and most important priority. Then you've got to say how how do you create an investment strategy that will encourage people to get engaged in helping to build that league? And I don't know that the answers for us in netball will be the same as football or cricket and rugby. I think because we haven't got this financially well-off parent in terms of the men's sport, we've got to find our own way. And therefore, I think we're working hard and thinking where that investment might come from and what it might look like. So that league is important, not just to give us profile and presence, but for those youngsters, you know, and and I also am passionate about dual career. I don't I don't think we ever want a youngster to give up the day job, so to speak, to play our sports. Because in the next 10 years, I don't think, maybe with the exception of football, that women will earn the sorts of money that will allow them not to have to work. And I also passionately believe it's healthy and good to have a dual career approach to things, otherwise, it can become pretty tedious. You're playing, you're training, you're sleeping, and eating. You're playing, you're training, you're sleeping, you're eating. I think it's really good to have something else that you pursue. So I I am very optimistic about where we'll get to. I don't think the journey's an easy one. We're working really hard on it, and just watch what happens over the next couple of years. Watch this space.

Sue Anstiss:

Watch this space. Your book, The Game Changer, is an incredible read. I'd read it in sat down and read it on a Sunday. It wasn't just like I can't believe that.

Sue Campbell:

You texted me and said you read it in one day. It doesn't say much about the book, does it really?

Sue Anstiss:

Fantastic, but every chapter not very long. Every chapter. There was a fantastic history of what you had done, and then a kind of leadership lesson within that. So I wonder whether, as you kind of sat and wrote it and performed performed it, were there any particular chapters that were particularly difficult for you to revisit, emotional to revisit?

Sue Campbell:

Yeah, I think there were two. I I did the audio book as well as having written the book, so I had to do the audio, and um I have to tell you, that's one of the one of the hardest things I've ever done to actually do the audio. You know, I said, Oh, I'll get it done in a day, and the woman said, No, no, no, you won't do it in a day. I said, Oh, we'll do it in a day, no, no, no. And it actually took me three and a half days, and there were two parts where I had to leave the studio I couldn't do. One was my anorexia, the loss of my father, the despair I found, the love of my mother, the recovery. Even now I'm choking a bit, talking about it. Hard to to to to read it was harder almost than to write it because I heard it. And and then I think the other one that really I found very difficult was the whole feeling of I and I didn't articulate it as clearly in the book, but I found it hard to read it, which was the the real challenges of going into the FA and feeling like I was an alien from outer space. Not ever having felt that before, it doesn't mean I hadn't been subject to sexism and all the other things that goes with being a woman in any position, but I had always had the self-confidence and self-belief to somehow ride through that and to continue to be authentically me. I've never wanted to be, I've never wanted to be something that somebody else is. I've learned from lots of people, I've been surrounded by great people, but I've always wanted to be authentically me. And I found in the FA that was the first time me felt like I wasn't good enough. That was really tough.

Sue Anstiss:

I don't think I did get that from the book. No, I don't think you did.

Sue Campbell:

But as I was reading it, I started to feel it again. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I mean sometimes. And I didn't, I because I didn't want the book to be about, you know, I did want it to explain some of the challenges I'd faced, but I didn't want it to be I wanted to be an upbeat, positive, hopeful, optimistic book. I didn't want to make it into anything else.

Sue Anstiss:

So for women working in that sport in the FA, in terms of women leaders and future leaders, what advice would you give now from your experiences from having from someone that it is so clear on knowing who you are and being authentic? If you struggle in that environment, what advice would you give them?

Sue Campbell:

I won't give any advice to anybody in the FA, but I would say as as a woman, we we and this is you know, this is and there are men who feel this as well as a continuum of human life, right? It isn't it isn't you can't say women feel this way and men feel that way. That isn't how it is at all. But there is a I think women can be damaged more easily by comments and barbs, and and I think we have to constantly go back to that mission thing. You know, don't take these things personally. If you take them personally, they can destroy you, and you have to be bigger than that, and that's so easy to sit here and say, and so damn difficult to do. But that's the same with setbacks, you know, they're they're learning experiences, they're not things that should crush you, but it's very easy to be crushed, and and I think that's probably true of men as well, but I think women show it more clearly, and I think that sort of emotional damage that these things can do to you is hard to recover from. But I I genuinely believe if you keep focused on the mission, you keep reminding yourself you're just you. You get up in the morning, you clean your teeth, you walk the dog, you know, you're no different to anybody else, you never will be any different to anybody else. The mission is where you're focused, it's where you want to go. Then people can't damage you as severely. But it took, yeah, it took a lot. And I I think the other one, which I know you will know about, was when Michael Gove made his terrible decision to get rid of the school sports structure that I'd spent um 15 years of my life building and watched somebody dismantle it in about two hours. That was brutal. And and and you know, I think I think when when you've you're vested in that mission and you spend all your energy persuading people to be part of that mission, to go and to be part of something, and you're growing something, and people are trusting you that this is gonna be okay, this is gonna be okay. That's why they come with you, that's why they believe in you, because they think you're taking them to something better, and then to watch somebody dismantle the thing, and I think in the process, make 3,000 people redundant, and that was the most cruel. And people were ringing me and saying, Do something. And I was thinking, My god, do you think I'm not trying to do something? But I couldn't, I couldn't stop him. And I think I said to you, it was the time I lost my moral purpose, and I I wouldn't take phone calls, I couldn't take anybody else's pain. I was getting these calls from people, you know, saying, Do something, help us, what can we do? And I and I just kept saying, I said eventually, I can't take any more calls. And then about two months in, and I I was now withdrawn, something you'd never hear anybody say about me, but I was completely withdrawn and completely pessimistic about what might happen. And uh a young woman called Debbie Foote, aged 17, from Lincolnshire, rang me up and said, This isn't right. And I said, No, you're right, it's not right. I mean, I had to be persuaded to take the call, put the phone down, thought nothing more of it. Two months later, Debbie rang to say, I've collected 750,000 signatures, I've organised 212 people, I've got the chip shop to give us all t-shirts that says save school sport, and we're marching down Downing Street. And I went, Oh, and I'm sitting here feeling sorry for myself, right? And what was my mission? My mission was to use sport to grow young people, to have the confidence, the self-belief, and the desire and the skills to be who they needed to be. And here they were, you know, they said, We don't want you to march with us. I thought, well, that's nice. Um but we'd love you to be there on the green, you know, outside the house. And I watched them coming down Downing Street, and I thought, oh, Susan, there's your mission walking towards you. And I could feel myself well up with emotion. And and as they walk towards me, I thought, you're pathetic. You've just spent three months feeling sorry for yourself. Get a grip. So those those those moments are are are deeply, and it's you know, I'm not unusual. People feel those things deeply, and I I think you just have to be able to come back and say the mission is still there.

Sue Anstiss:

Has your leadership style changed across your career? Would you say, if you look back to when we first met actually at the UK National Coaching Foundation, as it was at the time, but but how have you changed in your style?

Sue Campbell:

Yeah, massively, I think. I think I said to you over lunch, if I'd worked in the FA in my 40s, I'd have smashed a few people on their nose because I wouldn't have had the I wouldn't have had the control over my frustration. I I've learned to handle those things better. I don't know whether that's old age and you sort of get to the point where you don't want to fight people physically anyway, or that you just mature and you grow and understand. But I think I I'm a great believer that that leadership is a learning journey. And even now at Netball, I'm learning it again. And if I wasn't learning, I wouldn't be excited by the job. And if the challenges weren't different, I wouldn't be excited by the job. So I think anyone who thinks they're a finished article is finished or should retire. And and I I don't feel that. I still feel I can get better, I can improve, I can learn. Because the challenges are different, you know, I'm having to think differently, work at it, think about it in a different way. So I think leadership is not it's a journey, not a destination. You never get there, you just keep on evolving. So yeah, I've definitely evolved. There are bits of me that I liked at each point along the way, but you know, you evolve to manage the environment in which you're in, and you evolve based on what your previous experiences have been. You do anything differently if you look back now, if you had oh god, yes, I'm sure I would do lots differently. Um I think hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? I think all you can ever do is say, when you make errors, and I've made them in every job, some more serious than others, all you can ever do is sit and say to yourself, Did I make that decision at that time based on what I believe to be right? And if your answer is yes, then you can't beat yourself up about it. If you look back and you think, gosh, do you know I didn't take that into account, I didn't, then it's a lesson you learn. But it it's no good beating yourself up, is it? Because uh you you your confidence and your self-belief is what carries people with you. It's like a it's like a tide. The minute you start to retreat, they'll retreat. You've got to believe, and they have to believe in you, and they have to believe in what you're you're trying to accomplish.

Sue Anstiss:

And just finally, and we've got women that women in the room, women that listen to the podcast, and men listen to the podcast too, but but many women that work in the sport sector. What would you say to those that are looking and aspiring to lead in the way that you have through sport? Is there anything you wish you'd been told as a uh kind of younger leader in that space?

Sue Campbell:

What would you I'd say don't do what I did. Do it your way, be your authentic best. Don't ever feel you you can't learn. Yes, of course, listen to people, other people, learn from other people, and I did. I learnt many of my real skills from male male colleagues too. It isn't just but it's I do think women's leadership is slightly different, and and I think you must continue to believe that you can do it your way, and that's not arrogant, but it it it it must be authentic to you, because otherwise you're copying somebody else. That isn't authenticity. Learn from others, yes, but just believe in yourself. I am a great believer that individuals can change the world. I don't know that governments can, I don't know that politicians can if I'm being brutal, but I believe individuals with the right desire, with a passion, with a clear vision can change the world.

Sue Anstiss:

What a place to finish. Thank you so much, Sue Campbell. I always learn so much when I speak to Sue, and this conversation was no different. What a woman. Thank you once again to Sue for coming along to Leaders in Sport to speak with us live at the summit. If you'd like to hear from other troublezers in sport, there are over 200 episodes of the game changers that are free to listen to on all podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomen.co.uk. My guests have included senior leaders like Sue, along with the Lee athletes, coaches, broadcasters, scientists, journalists, and CEOs, all women who are changing the game in sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 14,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us. The whole of my book, Game On, The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport, is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you to Sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast and the Women's Sport Collective with a National Lottery Award. Thank you also to Sam Walker at What Goes On Media, who does such a brilliant job, as our executive producer, and thank you also to my colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannon. You can find the Game Changers on all podcast platforms, so please follow us now to ensure you don't miss out on future episodes. Do come and say hello on social media where you'll find me on LinkedIn and Instagram at Sue Anstis. The Game Changers.

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Sue Anstiss

Host
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Sam Walker

Producer