The Game Changers

Sarah Bern: Power, Joy & Redefining Strength in Women’s Sport

• Sue Anstiss • Season 21 • Episode 1

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“It’s so easy to chase perfection, but it doesn’t exist. The whole world is built on imperfection - and that’s what makes it beautiful.”

It was our privilege to talk to World Cup winner and Bristol Bears tighthead Sarah Bern for today's episode of The Game Changers podcast as she relives that history-making day at Twickenham and what's to follow. 

Sarah candidly traces her journey from a teenager wrestling with body image to a visible role model for strong, muscular women. Authentic on and off the pitch, Sarah shares how Ilona Maher’s arrival at Bristol Bears helped her find her own voice on social media - a powerful tool to drive change and open vital commercial doors for female athletes.

Sarah takes us behind the scenes - sharing what it's feels like in an England scrum or waiting in the tunnel walk to walk out in front of 82,000 fans. 

We also talk about the crossover of fashion and women's sport with the launch of her own clothing label - Below the Shoulder - with her teammates, a Vogue photoshoot and how Red Roses merchandise has been selling out in stores.

Looking ahead, Sarah calls for true equality across sport as we judge female athletes by what happens on the pitch, not by their appearance.

Her legacy goal is simple and powerful - to help women feel comfortable in their own skin so they can attack life with purpose and joy.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Sarah Bern:

It's phenomenal, but we're speechless. Like we're lost for ways to actually get your hands on that trophy is pure joy, but relief, but excitement, but like so many different emotions, and just like not only have we won this World Cup that we have worked incredibly hard for, like, we're hopefully changing the game for women's rugby and helping women sport all over the world.

Sue Anstiss:

Today in The Game Changes, I'm joined by Sarah Bern, one of the most celebrated players in World Rugby. A World Cup winner with the red roses and a cornerstone of Bristol Bear's front row. Sarah's renowned for her explosive running game, her dominance in the scrum and her fearless leadership on and off the pitch. But Sarah's story is about more than winning medals. From struggling with body image as a teenager to becoming a proud role model for strong, muscular women, Sarah has reshaped perceptions of what a female athlete can look like. She's inspiring the next generation not just with her performances, but with her honesty, courage, and her joy for the game of rugby. So, Sarah, firstly, massive congratulations. Winning the World Cup at Twickenham in front of 82,000. What did that moment mean to you personally as you finally got your hands on that beautiful trophy? Well, firstly, thank you for that lovely introduction.

Sarah Bern:

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say all those nice things about me. So I'm scaring up a little bit. No, I'm very flattered. But yeah, winning the trophy. First of all, the 82,000, like absolutely incredible. When we got the bus in, it was just phenomenal, like the streets were full. And when we got the 60,000, that was really special when we played against France. And it was the first time we thought, wow, like people are interested and invested in us. But coming into the 80,000, we had the cues of people on the floor, but the stands, it was up on the stand and around the south stand spiral staircase. It's amazing, wasn't it? Heads everywhere looking over the balcony. And that, like, there's that iconic picture that I think um our our lovely media people took. And I wore it literally, remember that we were all sat on the bus going, wow, look up there, like that's phenomenal. And just our fans are amazing, like they're so amazing. They just want us to do well. And I think that's really special as well, with the World Cup final and England being in it. It was essentially it looked like a stadium full of about 80,000 English fans, and like 2,000 of every other nation. It was an incredible experience, and it hasn't even sunk in. Like, I I I've been asked a lot, and everyone has, and and we've probably all got the same answer. Like, it's phenomenal, but we're speechless. Like, we're lost for words to actually get your hands on that trophy is pure joy, but relief, but excitement, but like so many different emotions, and just like proud to like be able to represent our country and say, look, guys, like not only have we won this World Cup that we have worked incredibly hard for, like, we're hopefully changing the game for women's rugby and helping women sport all over the world.

Sue Anstiss:

Absolutely. And is there a moment you talked about that seeing the Southstand with everyone looking over as the coach came in, but is there another snapshot memory of the game that you think will stay with you forever as you kind of look back in your old age?

Sarah Bern:

I think for me personally, like coming on to a game where you know we were a little bit in front, but we weren't massively in front, and it was a little bit of a oh a Canada coming back in and having it being a scrum, and I think it's like um you know, when you get subbed on, you're like the one thing you don't want to go straight into is a scrum because it's like the ultimate pressure point. So um we came on and we got the that amazing penalty, and for me, I just remember thinking like this ball of excitement just came over me and was like this confidence of like let's go and do it now. And yeah, that was definitely a defying moment for me as a front rower, obviously. But um, I think just seeing Zoe Orcroft burst into tears and just you know being her roommate, I know how how much she gives everything like we all do, but Zoe is just different gravy since she was 17 years old, and there was a time where you know she wasn't in the squad for certain tournaments, and now you think, wow, that's just absolutely how could you ever not take Zoe Oldcroft somewhere and she's she's the most amazing captain we could have ever asked for, and yeah, I'm just yeah, so much joy to see her that happy and just all that emotion just released.

Sue Anstiss:

I loved it. They're beautiful, happy, ugly proper tears, weren't they? It was proper sobbing emotional tears there. I I love so much about the day. I think for me, one of the most powerful moments was when the camera, we were in the stadium, the camera panned to you all in the tunnel. I get goosebumps now, as you're waiting to walk out into the stadium and just looking at people's faces, and we were out there, so we knew the noise and the just the sounds and the sights, and I was thinking, oh what are you thinking? So what were what were your thoughts as you were there, knowing you were coming out into this cauldron, as it were?

Sarah Bern:

I think for me it was excitement. I was like, This is everything that we have ever worked for, not just for the last three years, but you know, to s to sell out Twickenham Stadium for a home World Cup final, like that is something, you know, not very many players get to to be a part of. And also, you know, that's something we've been working on my whole nine, ten years of my England rugby career, like all building up to that one point of becoming a World Cup champion. So, you know, it was excitement. I remember Maud, like, because of the amount of people there. Maud literally turned to me and was like, Oh, she was like, I I I feel a bit wobbly. And I was like, You'll be great. Don't don't like, don't worry, you're always great, Maud. Like, you'll be amazing. And she was like, No, not to play, to that, I'm gonna cry in the anthropomorph. How lovely. Cute. I think it was just an overwhelming amount of support and excitement from the fans. Like we felt that, and that you know, that you can't help but it brings out an emotion because you're so proud and um thankful for them and to be able to be in the position you are at that point in time.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, absolutely. You've obviously experienced two previous World Cup finals that didn't have such happy endings. So, how did those memories impact the way that you handled this one? Uh yeah, I've had quite a journey, I think.

Sarah Bern:

When I was younger, I was very much, I'm gonna be the best in the world and I'm gonna do everything. And kind of that like Johnny Wilkinson mentality, need to do everything, need to be the best in the gym, best in nutrition, or not in terms of like competitiveness, but more so for me to be like, I've done everything I can do. So we're playing in 2017, I was a baby, I've didn't know how to scrummage personally. I just was put there and I was winging it. But it was great fun and I loved it. And I was playing with Emily Scarrot, Case Daly McLean, Danielle Waterman, like all these plays that I'd watched growing up because I was very lucky to be at London Irish and Isha Rugby Club, where they played a lot. You know, I was in total awe of all of that. So, first World Cup, really exciting, and I remember being like, Well, I'm playing with all these legends, so we're definitely gonna win. Like, because I was just like an 18-year-old. I was like, obviously, like these are the best plays ever. Um and we did it, and I after that I thought, no, I'm gonna do everything, and that's where that mentality came in. And in 2022, it was obviously tricky with COVID and all that kind of uncertainty around what's it gonna look like? Are we gonna play? Are we not gonna play? Have we trained enough? Have we had the ability to have time together? That probably for me kind of drove it even more to be, I need to be on it even more because there's all these different distractions. And we kind of came out with the same result. And I think I was a little bit like like I've just spent so much of my time so incredibly focused that I probably had a lot of blind spots that I wasn't probably aware of, whether that was I didn't see enough of my family or I didn't hang out with friends enough and things like that. So I think I made a big conscious effort because I was so sad when we we lost that World Cup final. That actually, you know, this time around I really want to enjoy it. I want to try and you know enjoy the fans, enjoy the experience. Because you you never know, like it could go like that. Injury or you know, selection or whatever. So this World Cup, yeah, I I had a significant knee injury the last season. So I missed out a big chunk of England that in that time frame. But then coming back, I thought I'm gonna relish in this. Like I I want to be joyful, I want to enjoy, I want to be confident in myself. And actually, I found, you know, doing things on social media where you're having fun with the crowd and engaging with people and like actually talk genuinely talking to people about their experiences helped me to kind of find my feet in my own skin, if that makes sense. And um helped me, I think, to just get the hard work right and also just the fun and silliness that we, you know, we can all tend to miss out on when we desperately are trying to achieve something.

Sue Anstiss:

And it feels like from the outside looking in, but that's a culture of a whole team. It really does feel like there's a lot of fun being had there. So not that they weren't happy teams before, but do you feel that's a distinctive shift in this team in terms of the culture?

Sarah Bern:

I think, yeah, isn't I don't think it was that we're not happy. I think people just really wanting to work hard and be professional. I think rugby in particular, because at that point in time we were very much seen as we have to mimic the men in order for it to be successful. And it was like, oh well, you when you do media, you know, these are your points in the media, and like you can say this much, but not too much. And I think it's kind of very much that kind of stoic male presence. And I think, especially well, for me working with Alona at Bristol Bears, Aloma, I kind of was like, people don't people don't want that. Like they want to see us, they want to see who we are. Um we we're not a big enough as a sport for us to be stoic and and kind of all the same carbon copy because we need to grow our sports, we need to entertain people, and that's what what we're in. We're in the entertainment business at the end of the day. So actually kind of break those barriers. You can be fun and silly, and you can be incredibly hard-working and very successful. They can both coexist. And I think we all really lent into that and thought if we're having fun and we get to show our fun side, that will ultimately show on the pitch.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, and clearly did. And I love that Alan Gilpin, head of World Rugby, has said actually the men's game needs to learn a little bit from the women and what we've been doing. That's what we've all been waiting for in women's sport for men to finally look across and say they could emulate and do a bit of what the women's game and women's sport has done too. I mean, leading on from that, because obviously there's the the piece about you as a successful team, but then how that impacts the public too. And you've said that the tournament obviously is more than about winning, that it's the legacy. So, how do you feel you hope that the the World Cup will impact women's rugby but women's sport more broadly?

Sarah Bern:

Um, I think for women rugby, like it's proven people want to come to games, people want to tune in on TV, like some incredible stats, five million, was that final and twelve million in total reach, or like absolutely phenomenal stats. And like we could keep talking about it, but selling out Twickenham Stadium, selling out other venues that we have been in the whole World Cup, like the appetite is there. So I think as from a rugby player's perspective, like I hope people invest in in women's rugby and see it as a like you say, it's its own identity, its own creation. We can take it wherever we want to take it. Like, yes, the rules of the game are the same as the men's, but everything around that can be different. It can be whatever we want it to be, and we can make it entertaining for people to come and enjoy and watch. So that's that's one thing, but also hopefully showing young girls and young boys, or actually to be honest, anyone, that they have a place in in the world, and that's something really close to my heart, is that you can be tall, big, small, short, strong, fast, like, and there's the place for you on that rugby pitch. And even if it if you're none of those things and you're not sporty, seeing how much fun that all the teams have had, you know, get involved in that. And you can be a team manager, you can be nutritionist, you can be SNC, you can be logistics manager. Like, there's so many roles for people to get involved in sport, but like the main thing is the connection and bringing a whole community of people together to celebrate something that is pretty fun and cool to watch. And if anything, like I feel like we all just wander this planet looking for joy. So why not why not keep sharing that?

Sue Anstiss:

That's my motto in life, follow the joy. That is my strapline. So I love that. You that's the same two there. I just to talk a little bit about your journey in in rugby specifically. So you moved from that back row position into being a tight-haired prop. So quite different positions. How did that change how you felt uh as an athlete and and your kind of role within the team?

Sarah Bern:

Um, yeah, so I actually I first started, I was always a bigger kid. You wouldn't notice I was really big, but I was always bigger and broader and taller, and like I just even my head, like I've got a giant head. Like I'm just born bigger, and that's I was literally just born like that. So for me, it was like growing up. I started as a as a proper, got put there first straight away, just based on appearance, and then then started playing. And then they were, oh no, no, no, move her to number eight, she's a really good ball carrier. And then actually, because I did a lot of athletics when I was younger, not like to high standard, but I just really enjoyed running and doing all different types of sports. So, yeah, then in secondary school moved to centre, so I played a lot of my childhood in the centres. Um, even I think I've played like 10 and 9 for county at some points, which had never put me in a nine shirt, never. That's not that's not my strength, but you know, got to try, yeah. And then yeah, I settled as a back rower in Ungled and 20s, and I still had this like giant pair of shoulders on me. And the coach came in and was like, I I want to make you a tighthead, and I was like, Yeah, no, thank you. Don't want to do that. And um, Matt Ferguson, he was our coach at the time, so he left and he came back. But the issue was I was really good at all the body management stuff, the like little individual skills we do, which is bare course. I don't know, I won't get too technical, but I I just really enjoyed that bit of like body movement. So he came back in, he was like, Lit, like, I've got some injuries and I really need a tighthead. And he was like, I'm not saying that you would never play for England as a back row because like you're a good player, but I've got loads of really good back row players right now. But I need a tighthead, and I think I can get you there quickly. And I said no again. What did you not want at the time? What was it? I didn't want to be a prop. There was a stigma of kind of like the kind of old lads' clubs that it was always your your bigger men, you and that no offense to them, absolutely lovely guys, but like I didn't see that as a feminine role, I didn't see that as a powerful role, like where now you look at it and you go, Wow, look at the props, you've got LSN, you've got you know Hannah Bottom and you've got all these players that are really strong and powerful and and fast. So, but at the time you you didn't really have too much of that. So I didn't I didn't want it, and I had a big thing about I was always bigger and I didn't want to be bigger, I wanted to be smaller, I wanted to be the shape that people find or associate with femininely and like uh beautiful and that kind of those body images standards that those kind of ideals that get pressed on to kids or women of of any age, to be honest, not just not just children. And I did grow up around some eating disorders, some difficulties with shape, and you know, my family were heavily involved in in dance and fashion and I wanted to continue to, you know, be like be like my family and enjoy and I'd do that. And I I didn't see myself in that. I n I didn't see anyone who looked like me ever.

Sue Anstiss:

What age? What around what age were you were you not first aware of that and and wanting to always. I remember being little.

Sarah Bern:

I I did ballet but I had a little pop belly. Like I wasn't I wasn't big, I just had a little pop belly and um had big broad shoulders. And I just remember being like I don't look like I don't look like everyone here. You got sisters, you're s you got two sisters. They're ten years older than me. So okay. When I was little, they were obviously in their teenage years. And yeah, I just remember looking at like magazines and stuff and being like, I don't look like that. Why do I not look like that? Or like the clothes wouldn't fit me right. Like it wasn't that they wouldn't necessarily they wouldn't fit, they just didn't fit like right the way that they meant. So I think I was very conscious of that from a young age, and I think when I went to secondary school, that's when you know when you're most insecure, isn't it? When you first go to secondary school and you're trying to meet new friends, and you're also your body's changing anyway, and you want to fit in, you're desperately trying to fit in, which is so crazy because when you get to university, you're desperately trying to stand out. It is such a bizarre concept, but um yeah, and I I struggled with with diet and and overtraining and uh lost loads of weight actually, but it got really praised, like it got praised because you know that's what society, you know, sees as you know, healthy and fit. But the reality was I wasn't healthy and fit. I I was definitely fit because I was doing loads of exercise, but it wasn't in a healthy way. And I remember going to rugby camp and I was terrible at rugby. I was getting absolutely shot left, right, and centre. I couldn't ball carry, and that was my strength was ball carrying. And I remember like sitting up and talking to my friend at the time in the ch in the like dorm room, and I was like, I think I gotta eat more food. I was like, I'm way too tired. I am, and that's when I really started to like dial in on body image and actually being an athlete is more than what you look like, and that's why I was so stubborn to move to Thai prop because I felt like I'd really come away from that. But then yeah, Matt Ferguson, he sat me down, he was like, Okay, look, like I give you a deal. If you do this for me, I will get you to a World Cup. And I was like, obviously 18 years old, like bit cocky, and I was like, I'll do it, but handshake, you have to make me the best prop in the world. I'm not doing it. And then he he went hand and I went, uh, and also I want to play sevens because that's I wanted to play in the Olympics. That was my dream. Like I want to be a sevens player. And he was like, Yeah, fine, fine, fine. So he shook my hand, and then I've not played sevens since 2017, but he definitely and he definitely did a good job at teaching me how to be a tight head prop. So fair, fair play to him.

Sue Anstiss:

And you've got this reputation for being one of the most explosive props in the game. So I think that it that's fascinating, isn't it? That playing style of being able to combine both, that's almost what makes you unique but very different to others out there. So, how do you train? Because I feel like slightly different in terms of that training for power and strength versus training for speed, the part that you're so renowned for. Um, I love speed training.

Sarah Bern:

Like I absolutely love it. I'm not one of those fools where they're like, oh, we're doing speed today, and they go, Oh no, I can't do it. I love it. Like, I love learning how to do it properly. I was I was really like quite not in a bad way, but I was very geeky around how do I become like the best. Like I just genuinely wanted this inner drive since I was about, I don't know, really little, but I think for rugby specifically, probably from the age of like 12, where I was like, I'm I'm gonna I remember if I didn't have a game, I'd set up a obstacle course where I would just get tackling. Yeah, like mum would look outside and why she's just running in circles outside, like in the garden. So I was just very driven.

Sue Anstiss:

Um Is that your personality generally that you're want something and you'll go for it?

Sarah Bern:

And yeah, I like I would say all my family are very hardworking, so I think that was kind of in instilled in us, but also we enjoy like having fun at the same time. So I think that's the bit where I kind of leant way too hard at like being so driven, and now I'm kind of you know getting getting the funnel element back into it. So yeah, no, I was so so driven when I was a youngster. Well, and even now, I'm still driven, but I guess my my goals have slightly shifted a little bit.

Sue Anstiss:

And for those of us that have never been in the scrum like me, can you I guess take us a little bit into the psychology? Because I think it is a fascinating area of the game that others you know we we've all run and we've all kicked balls, but actually to be in the scrum, what happens in those those moments before the opposing teams meet? What's the psychology going on there?

Sarah Bern:

It's actually very interesting because most if you speak to I don't know, maybe a backs coach or someone, not to name it, Lou Meadows, and she just like that all you do is bend over, don't you? Just bend over and push, ha ha ha ha. Like, and then you've got like your flankers behind you, like screaming, like, yeah, scram. But actually for me, you you have that inner element of like, yeah, like scram, I'm gonna dominate, like I'm gonna dominate you. But it's actually more of a chess game. It's very, very strategic in setup. It's because you're working with eight people, but realistically, you've got three people at the front that are gonna control where this goes, and the back five are this raw power coming through the middle of it. So you're the drivers of that power. It's very much okay. Did I get the what's my process? So you could like foot, bind, head, whatever that looks like for you. Calm, and then when it's like you're there, it's then the aggression to snap and hold it there because it's uncomfortable. I'm not gonna lie. It's uncomfortable.

Sue Anstiss:

As in pain, is painful or just is discomfort?

Sarah Bern:

No, no, no, it's not painful, it's just you imagine doing like a maximum squat and you're at the bottom of maximum squat, and then you're also playing chess at the same time, but you're also like quite aggressively playing chess, you're just like it is more is a position n you're never in in day-to-day life. So it is something that you really do have to train, and it's never gonna go perfect, never ever. And once you get one scrum and you've like, oh, I've worked this out, I'm gonna get them again. Someone else has changed something, and you know, you might be going backwards at that point. So it's um it's a real learning game. It is a dark arts, and sometimes it's just about painting good pictures for referees.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, we hear that a lot from the commentary, don't we? And and do you enjoy it? Do you like are you pleased when there's a scrum? Yeah, I am. Well, uh depend where it is in the game.

Sarah Bern:

Ten scrums will write anything getting higher, not for many things, no. But I'm more of a runner though, so I love playing attacking rugby. So if there's like 20 minutes of the game where there's no scrums, I'm in my element, I'm going, great, I feel so fit and ready to go. As soon as there's a scrum, because the weight the weight of it takes it out of your legs. Like and then you've got the nine going, get round the corner, get round the corner. You're like, you get round the corner, I'm seeing stars. But yeah, no, it is good. I I love I've always loved learning, like I was saying, like about the speed and the power and stuff. Like, I really enjoy essence, it's just strength and conditioning, and all that kind of uh in-depth knowledge about it. So like I do enjoy it, yeah.

Sue Anstiss:

And we talked earlier, you talked about that that fact that rugby is such an amazing sport because it really thrives on body diversity, and you have become this really visible role model, as I mentioned in the introduction, but for strong muscular, aesthetic women and you're regularly sharing posts now. So, how important do you think it is that representation across social media to to younger, it's not younger women, but women of all ages?

Sarah Bern:

Uh so I think it's so important, and I think got to a point where I was like, well, if I'm feeling like this, I you know, I've a household of women, I live in a household of women like my families, but predominantly women, and I mean that my sisters look totally different to me, and they still have the same insecurities, just worded a different way. So I was like, if you feel like that, and I feel like that, well, there must be so many women, and I've never ever met a a woman that's truly, truly gone, uh loved everything about me. Like, I just don't think it's in our nature. Like we are as as like women, we don't believe in ourselves massively, and it's because society's just not set set up for us to have that kind of innate belief in ourselves, and actually we do have to tell ourselves, and it's not easy to when to wake up every day and go, Oh, I love myself, I'm gonna be great today, I'm a great person. Like, that's just not life because life is so can be difficult, and things come up, and you always got a little voice in the back of your head going, I don't know if I can do this, I don't know if I can do this. But I think for me, what I realized is is that why don't we share that more? Because it is very easy to think, oh, that's just in my head. But they don't have it. Look how amazing they are, they don't have those thoughts, and that's not that's not true at all. Like everybody has thoughts and insecurities, so why don't we share them a bit more? And actually, maybe me doing that, I might help you know some younger kids growing up who had had have that pressure. I think it's even worse now with social media, have a pressure to kind of be perfect, and it's so funny that we all chase perfection because it's not it's not real, it's not there, and also if we were meant to be perfect, we would be, but the whole world is created of imperfection. And actually, if you look at like the seven wonders of the world or whatever, the natural wonders, they're wonderful because they are so unique and different. So it's crazy that we celebrate in nature things that are so different, so amazing, but within ourselves and in society, it's kind of we banish, we banish it. We don't want it, we want everyone to look the same. And I just think that's you know, I I just want to bring that element back actually, just because you're different doesn't mean you're not beautiful. It doesn't mean your your worth is any less.

Sue Anstiss:

And your your posts have been so powerful. My kids have told me about, you know, um whether it's the TikToks, but all that you're sharing, I think it was about a year ago you said you were kind of anxious about showing yourself online, but you seem to have completely embraced that now on social media. So what was the turning point then? You mentioned Alona Ma, her presence at Bristol Bears, in fact, her whole family has clearly had a huge kind of impact. So what did she unlock for you personally? Was it was that the tipping point for you?

Sarah Bern:

Yeah, I think so. I think um when Elona first came into Bristol, she was a huge, you know, star. She was a big, I always was like, you know, someone saying, Oh, Jennifer Anderson's coming to train with you. Like, you're like, well, like in the rugby world, like she's massive. So um when she came in, but she was the first, I guess, kind of star that I've ever met, like on a close level, where she was exactly, she's exactly the same as how she presents on social media. She's there's there's no different. Like, and it's the same with all her family. And that's why I say like her family are lovely as well, because what you see on social media, that is that is them, and they're just a really like gorgeous group of people that when you spend time with them, like you feel, you know, you they bring you up, they pump your tires, like, as well as like you're going around going, wow, you're amazing. Like, they they literally that's just how they are as people, so they're like little rays of sunshine. And I think I was like, Wow, you you can just be who you are, like you don't have to fit into things, like you don't have to make yourself small, you don't have to do what people sit like say all the time, like you can just be you and be really strong and brave within that. There's like a real kind of brave element to being so vulnerable with with things, and that's actually how you change the world. Like, and I think what you going back to your point about like uh me being anxious about like negative comments and things like that. Well, if you're making real change, people aren't gonna agree. And I think that's why I kind of leaned into it. If if people weren't commenting certain things, well, I'm not saying that they should, but you know, people want to give their opinion, and everyone has the freedom to do that, and that's the great thing about the world. But it means that uh we're catching their attention, there's a conversation happening there, and actually we might change some minds along the way. So, yeah, negativity is never great, and obviously there's a there's a point where you go, okay, that's that's enough now. But actually, the fact that we're even getting comments like that is creating conversation, creating change.

Sue Anstiss:

It does feel like such a genuine friendship, and you've clearly got such respect for each other as as players as well. Uh do you still struggle with your self-image today? Is that still something that you have to overcome?

Sarah Bern:

Yeah, for sure. And I'm pretty sure like Ilona probably does every day as well. Like we're we are women, like we are still women, we're not superheroes. And actually, sometimes, you know, I look at my own post and go, oh, wait, wait, why are you getting grumpy or why why why are you annoyed that this shirt is like looks a bit funny on this bit of like it's so easy to become so fixated on the way we look and is and it it's because the world is built to is the world is built like that, and that you know, that's okay. But also you've got to remember the most amazing things that you're doing outside of that. And that's why the the positive comments on social media, the amount of amazing messages I get, the amount of amazing people I've got to meet, and um, you know, that have inspired me by you know having the opportunity to meet them, like that's why I want to do it. And hopefully, okay, maybe yes, generations that have passed never had the opportunity to feel confident in their own skin because they didn't have role models. And you know, I didn't have necessarily have a role model either, like Alona. But if me, Alona, other people, other rugby girls or anyone really can start talking about it, well, hopefully it will create a generation in I don't know, 20 years' time that go, nah, we're we're pretty comfortable with how we we are, and just because you're different to me doesn't mean you're you're any less valuable.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, it's fantastic. And obviously, that driving social change and attitudes is really important. But Elohim has also been really frank about the fact that the social media following and engagement, it's that element that enables her to commercialise her involvement in the sport too, because she's not going to do it just through playing the sport, unfortunately. So is there an element of that as to your approach with that or other red roses too? Seeing that as an opportunity, the commercial side?

Sarah Bern:

Yeah, definitely. I think it's I think it would be silly to say for any woman sport athlete, and there's a crazy fact, I can't remember exactly, but it's something. Like 90% of women, female athletes, rely on as like three-quarters of their income is for commercial value. Something, something like that.

Sue Anstiss:

The men's is the anti is the opposite of that, isn't it? The men's is that they're getting their money from playing their sport rather than their stuff up. I s I heard that quite recently too. I was blown away. Yeah.

Sarah Bern:

It's so wild because we don't get that much coverage either. So you're thinking about how hard all these female athletes are working to get those deals to be successful, have that life. And on the flip side, it's just it's totally opposite. And so, yeah, definitely people wanna we we want to close that, close the gap. Like we would love for it to be equal and women treated equally. But that's just again, that's just not not where we are right now. So yeah, working in those commercial spaces. Also, if we're in commercial spaces, we're in mainstream sport, in mainstream, you know, media, more more people we can help help and hopefully encourage them to come to rugby because like I say, there's a place for everyone there. So the more joy we can spread.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned that mainstream media, but in the build-up to the tournament, you were featured in Vogue and you've partnered with Barbie. So how does that feel? Is that a bit surreal to be in those places and for women's rugby to be celebrated in those places too? That was the most wildest week of my life.

Sarah Bern:

I mean, until until recently, yeah. We yeah I had a call about well, it all started actually after Six Nations, and I had a call that I was in the Pride Independence Pride list, and I was like, oh wow, thinking that's really cool. I I didn't know too much about it. And then I was like, looking, I was like, Elton John's on this list. I was like, I ranked higher than Elton John on the Pride list. I was like, what's happening here? Um and I like I said, because I genuinely just want to be my authentic self, and if that helps people, that helps people. It was amazing to be a part of that. And then following on from that Barbie, we're like, Oh, we really want you to to be on the Barbie shoot, and that was just I just never thought that ever. I I never saw myself as a Barbie. Like never ever. So like the fact that I don't want to get emotional, but like the fact that then yeah, you do yeah. I think um give me a second. The fact that like there was an opportunity to show young kids with something that's so prevalent, like Barbie, being the sponsor for that, that you genuinely can be whoever you are, as and whoever you want to be, and you can still be beautiful, sexy, and all that kind of thing that's associated with Barbie, like was just like, yeah.

Sue Anstiss:

So you can see it means so much, yeah. And what means so much for so many other girls that are coming to the you know, are coming to that for the first time. It's so powerful.

Sarah Bern:

And the same with Vogue, yeah. So top fashion magazine, and like grew up around fashion. I absolutely love it. So that was like a real milestone. And also it was kind of nice to go to my sister who used to work in the fashion industry, be like, hey.

Sue Anstiss:

Have you been in Vogue? Yeah.

Sarah Bern:

That was pretty cool as well. You got good bragging rights.

Sue Anstiss:

And talking to fashion, so you've launched a new Prime Below the shoulder. Tell us a little bit about that. What inspired you and some of the other players to come together in that space?

Sarah Bern:

So, what uh what inspired us was um firstly Emma Swords, she is my best friend since we were 12 years old. We played rugby together.

Sue Anstiss:

Oh, I didn't know that. That is so lovely.

Sarah Bern:

So we first met at London Irish. I think she's a year older than me, so she might have been like 13, 14, and I was 12 years older, and we just were best friends since then. So um we've not always been like close because obviously rugby takes you here, there, and everywhere. But we've always been, she's we she calls herself my constant. But I d I don't know if she's meant you meant to give yourself the that slogan, but yeah, no, yeah. So she's um she's like lovely, absolutely like my rock. So we were thinking, we were watching like kind of we were like there's no real like fashion rugby, like you see football and fashion now, huge like football shirts everywhere. I mean like it's not really happening with rugby too much. Yes, you have the rugby style kind of vintage shirts, but I feel like we can really push this more. And Emma came up with this deck, and we were like, Well, yeah, why not? And Jess and Zoe were like, We're in, like, we want to be, they love fashion as well. So they were like, we want to make a brand that people can relate to, that is rugby, but it was also really cool and stylish, and let's take rugby, like we say, into mainstream fashion because football's done it, so why can't we? And that's kind of how it was born. Um in terms of the four of you, with Jess Breach and Zoe Harrison. And um, yeah, so then we we it was very quick turnaround to get it before well cut because there's like commercial restrictions on it. Got it all done, got it off, and yeah, it kind of exploded, which was really cool. Um, and now we're we're gonna make some more products, TBC, coming out of just something some different. It'll still be like that kind of stylish, kind of magazine shoot kind of style that we really want to push, but it will definitely all still be rugby.

Sue Anstiss:

And the lovely, the kind of irreverent logos. I mean that's a piece about it, isn't it? That it's a bit not tongue-in-cheek, but I like that. That's the element about it that makes it so cool.

Sarah Bern:

Yeah, and that's what you know, you look at the you look at your rock and roll stars, you look at like your pop stars, it's all a little bit rebellious, it's all a little bit kind of reframing what what's should be right and what should be wrong, or even actually getting rid of all labels. And we kind of wanted to be a part of that rebellious. We all are in our own way a little bit rebellious anyway, so we thought there's so much tongue-in-cheek in rugby anyway, so let's make it fashionable.

Sue Anstiss:

I love that. I love that. I had to fight hard last night to get myself one of the uh feel the burn t-shirts at So London and on Regent Street. They saw that of every size. I literally did more stock coming today. And apparently they had a queue outside the store on Sunday morning after the game on Saturday with girls wanting to get Red Roses merch for the future. So how it's just so wonderful. I mean, how how does that make you feel as a player to know there is that whole other market? And actually, we saw that obviously the the hats and the everything else around it, but you could just see I I love that there's so much variety of players creating their own things and new opportunities.

Sarah Bern:

Yeah, I think it's I think it's brilliant. Like honestly blown away that there was cues trying to get into the store. It's a really cool story. It's a great idea in the first place because why shouldn't we celebrate the summer of sport? Like, why shouldn't we buy merchandise? And it was a really cool opportunity that just popped up and we were like, cool, let's run with it. And then it it went crazy and we'll keep running out of stock. I've got so many messages like, can you get more stock? I'm like, yeah, let me figure that out. I don't know how.

Sue Anstiss:

But yeah, I'm trying to also train and play for winning a World Cup and everything else, but leave it with me. Interviews.

Sarah Bern:

I was like, share your message, let me forward it on. Like because my friend, Izzy Nor Smith, actually, she uh used to play for England, she was the back row from Bristol Bears as well. She was like, She's like, mate, there's no kid sizes. And I was like, hang on a minute, let's sort that out. So literally, then the next day those kid sizes up on the website.

Sue Anstiss:

So they tried to offer me a child size yesterday. Yeah, I was I don't know what I was thinking when I tried that on in the change room, but yeah.

Sarah Bern:

Well, they are oversized, so you know.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, even so.

Sarah Bern:

Yeah, it's been crazy. And like that just shows as well. Again, there's such a commercial appetite, there's such a demand for learning about each individual person, not just the player, but them as people. Like, what what could they design? What would that look like? And it it's just everything that we have seems to be like everything that we've touched as red roses has just shot off the shelves. So maybe in like like I was saying, like how we have the men's game and the women's game, and they get compared really easily. It's all about ticket sales, bums on seats. And actually, I wonder in the women's game, you know, who's the biggest consumers? Women and families and children, and who's our biggest market? Women's family and children. So actually, maybe if we focus more on the commercial element and change kind of that financial element of it, we'll get more investment into our sport, we'll get more nations having more support behind them. I mean, the Irish girls with their um fleeces. Oh my god, I know. That was amazing, wasn't it? Absolutely phenomenal. And like that again, that shows like they have done so well this year, and like they have one item of kit that like have just gone wild. Like, sell them, commercialise it, get it out, get more back in.

Sue Anstiss:

Should you say what happened there? There was there was a people at the there were people at games holding up like free the fleece of holding things, and then then they eventually got a uh a low load of them made and they was like sold out in an hour and all sizes. It was incredible.

Sarah Bern:

It just shows like there's such a demand for it, and hopefully that makes it more appealing to sponsors, and hopefully that means that we can get more professional female athletes and we can really start to push our game forward.

Sue Anstiss:

And and obviously we've said that the women's game is changing so fast and growing so fast, but if you could pick one change that you'd like to see kind of globally or domestically, that would move the needle even faster for the game, what what would that be? Oh, that's such a tricky question. Throwing that in the end.

Sarah Bern:

Um, it's a great question. It's a very good question. Uh I think I can't pick, I've got so many thoughts going through my head. The one thing I would like to change, I think definitely the one that's probably the biggest elephant in the room is that gender equality, no matter what that looks like. So whether that's in financially or even just opinions about how maybe women aren't as big, so then they don't work as hard because it's less energy. Like, you know, things like crazy things like that, or women's Easter gym will put off men and stuff like that. Like it's just I yeah, it's that would be the biggest thing for me is just to be seen as an athlete that ha what is happening on the pitch and not as a as a gender. I think, but that that's not just in rugby, that's in in all sports across the world. And if we can get that equality, kind of that stigma uh attached, or even like get that archaic view out of the way. I think women's sport, it already is taking off, but I think it will launch not only women's sport, it will launch men's and women's. Like it will help everyone grow. So let's go for it.

Sue Anstiss:

It's really interesting, isn't it? Stuff within women's sport at the moment where it's like, well, we need to bring the male fans across because and I've always thought, but yeah, we do, if they want to watch, but actually there's this massive audience that's never come to sport, has never really seen sport. And I think from the sales of the merchandise and the people in the turns, and yeah, their dads and boyfriends can come with them. But actually, there's this huge, untapped audience of of fans out there that haven't really had sport at all. And women's sport can be the place where they feel included and connected and all those things that we saw in the stadium. Yeah, definitely.

Sarah Bern:

And there's no judgment, like if you don't know the rules, no one no one cares because there's a great song about to come on when someone scores a try. Like, that's absolutely fine, and that's kind of what we want. I think, yeah, it's so nice to to be there. And there were so many people at Battersea. We were very fortunate to go to Battersea Palace Station to lift the trophy. And there was people in the crowds there that were like, I don't know any of the rules, I don't know what a prop is, but I really like you and I like the team. And that's like you're like, great, like come along. We we want everyone there for the ride. So yeah, I that's what I do love about that.

Sue Anstiss:

And just finally, when people talk about Sarah Burn in the future, in 10 years, couple of decades time, what do you hope that they will say about what you help to change in the in the game or society?

Sarah Bern:

Um I think my real passion is that I just I just help people to feel like they can be themselves. I think that's probably it. Like, oh, like she inspired me just to, you know, be myself and go and it go and attack life because you know, like life's tricky anyway. We don't need to beat ourselves up around as well. And I just hope people realise that if they can do that, and it's definitely hard for so many people, that you know, the their potential is limitless. I just yeah, I want people to be kinder to themselves and therefore kinder to each other.

Sue Anstiss:

Well, I hope I wasn't fangirling too much there, but what an incredible athlete and human being Sarah Bern is. It's been my pleasure to talk to a number of rugby legends for The Game Changers Podcast, so do get back and you can find episodes with the likes of Sue Day, Maggie Alphonosi Shaunagh Brown, Sarah Hunter, Mo Hunt, Emma Mitchell, Giselle Mather, and Lisa O'Keefe. In fact, there are over 200 episodes of the Game Changers that are all free to listen to on podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomen.co.uk. Guests include elite athletes along with coaches, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs, all women who are changing the game in sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 14,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us. The whole of my book, Game On, The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport, is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you to Sport England, who back the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective, with a National Lottery Award. Thank you also to Sam Walker at What Goes On Media, who does such a great job as our executive producer, and thank you to my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannon. You can find the Game Changers on all podcast platforms, so please follow us now to ensure you don't miss out on future episodes. Do come and say hello on social media where you'll find me on LinkedIn and Instagram at Sue Anstiss. The Game Changers.

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Sue Anstiss

Host
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Sam Walker

Producer