The Game Changers

Giselle Mather: Coaching with courage and changing the game

• Sue Anstiss • Season 21 • Episode 4

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Why are we still telling female rugby coaches they are ‘not ready’ to coach at the highest levels of the women’s game, when we then say to male players ‘you can go straight into professional coaching when you come off the field’?

 This is just one of the thought-provoking questions Giselle Mather tackles on today’s episode of The Game Changers podcast.

Giselle is one of the most influential and pioneering figures in rugby. A former
England international and World Cup winner, Giselle's extraordinary coaching
career has seen her consistently break new ground in the sport. 

 Giselle was the first woman to earn the RFU’s Level 4 coaching qualification and has gone on to lead at the very highest levels of both the men’s and women’s professional game. 

In this candid conversation, Giselle relives the raw early years of the women’s
game, from the first Women’s World Cup in 1991 to lifting the trophy in 1994,
and explains how those experiences forged a coaching philosophy that puts the human before the athlete.

Combining elite coaching with a busy family life as a mother of three, Giselle has coached at Wasps, London Irish, Teddington, Ealing Trailfinders and internationally as a coach for England Women and Head Coach for Team GB Women’s Rugby 7s, along with the inaugural Women’s Barbarians.

Giselle shares how she’s earned respect in men’s environments, the principles that underpin her sessions and the leadership needed to build diverse staff teams where every player can connect and thrive. 

We talk about how visibility is the fastest route to equality for women’s rugby,
why elite athletes deserve the very best qualified coaches and how blunt gender quotas in coaching can backfire.

Renowned for her vision, passion and commitment to developing people, Giselle has inspired players and coaches across generations. She’s an extraordinary leader on and off the pitch. 

 Next week's guest is Somali professional boxer, model and campaign activist - Ramla Ali

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Giselle Mather:

They are international rugby players. They are elite sportswomen playing in front of 25,000 people. That experience is huge, so why would you not put in front of them a really experienced coach? Why do you think that it's okay to bring somebody just off of the field? And maybe that's controversial.

Sue Anstiss:

Giselle Mather is one of the most influential and pioneering figures in rugby. And in this episode of The Game Changers, you'll learn how this former England International and World Cup winner carved out an extraordinary career that's seen her consistently break new ground in the sport. Giselle was the first woman to earn the RFU's level 4 coaching qualification, and she's gone on to lead at the very highest levels of both a men's and women's professional game and internationally. Renowned for her passion, vision, and commitment to developing people, Giselle has inspired players and coaches across generations. She's a much celebrated leader on and off the pitch. This episode was recorded in a live online meeting with members of the Women's Sport Collective, and I started by asking Giselle about her memories of playing in that very first Women's World Cup back in 1991.

Giselle Mather:

We had to play four games in nine days. I think that would be the first major, major difference because obviously now it's every week they get rest. We had to stand up and go again and again. Obviously, financial stuff around all of that, but um that was and playing rugby and that physicality, people's bodies were somewhat sore by the end of it. For me, I got my opportunity in the actual World Cup final because back in the day you only got put on the field as a bench person if the person on the field that you were replacing was actually injured. You weren't allowed to bring your bench on. So I'd spent many, many internationals sat on a bench, never getting an opportunity. And um in this one, in the World Cup final, the fullback Jay Mitchell went down with a dislocated shoulder with about 25 minutes to go. So I got my opportunity to come on in that World Cup final, and it was magical, really, really special for me. We did lose the game, but from my point of view, all the work that I'd done, all the training, all the things, finally I got I got my opportunity and proved in that game that I was ready to play, and then travelled the whole journey to 94 as a starting player. So that was an amazing experience for me. It was so different. The hotel, for example, uh, there was one night where there was an uh we were overbooked, so we had to all come out of our rooms. The hotel was overbooked and we all slept on the floor, which of course was sore body, you can imagine what that was like. We're all in one big conference room with sleeping bags on the floor. The event was organized by four very special women, which I'm sure you've seen the the whole thing around them of how they set up that World Cup. It was incredible, and it was it was women setting up something that they really, really wanted to do because they loved it.

Sue Anstiss:

There's a fabulous documentary, actually, Scrum Queens, made by BBC Wales. If people haven't seen it, which just uh 45 minutes, but an amazing summary of that incredible story. Uh you alluded there three years later, 1994, you went on to win the Rugby World Cup. So, what did that mean to you personally at the time to be a World Cup winner?

Giselle Mather:

I have a massive work ethic. I I massively believe that if you work hard ultimately and you practice hard, ultimately you will get the rewards. Not always in the way that you you might think, different ways for different people. Not everybody gets to win a competition. And again, whenever you start a World Cup, there were 16 teams in in this current one, only one of them is going to win. But they all have wins in different ways by the work that they've done. But for us at that time, um, we'd obviously lost the 91 World Cup. We worked incredibly hard, we were amateurs through and through, we paid for absolutely everything ourselves. Strength and conditioning, we didn't really have a program at that time, we had to do it all ourselves. So therefore, when we when we won it and defeated the Americans, a lot of lessons for me in that, as a which obviously now I apply in terms of my coaching role, but that the work ethic that we had, the tactics that were employed for us to win because the Americans technically their backs were sensational and they could move the ball all over the place, but the forwards not so. So we went at the game at the way that you needed to go at a game to to win because rugby is multifaceted, and Steve Dowling and got that absolutely spot on in how he did that, and we executed a game plan. We changed things slightly. There were so many things that happened that now that I look back were massive forecasts for me going forward as a coach. But incredible special day. It happened on my dad's birthday. That was Winterin's. I remember even more just the whole thing. And that moment when the final whistle went was something I will never ever forget.

Sue Anstiss:

You mentioned then that you're you were kind of analysing it. Do you think you were you were destined to be a coach even at that time in the way that you looked at the game?

Giselle Mather:

Yes, without without question. I I think right from a very, very young age, I knew I wanted to be a peer teacher. So I was, I did that for all through my playing career. I was that's what what what my role was. I was a peer teacher. So organising sessions, preparing teams, doing things like that with albeit with little people, was something that I've was just passionate about from very, very young. I played sport from a very young age, loved it, could see what sport gives you from a very young age, not just playing. So, yeah, without question, I think that that was something that was always going to happen.

Sue Anstiss:

And when we look now at the support around the red roses, and you were there the weekend, I was down in Bristol weekend. I mean, amazing, the the fans and the support and everything else. How does that make you feel when you see that progress as a former player, seeing what those red roses have now? You know, what's your response to that? Emotional.

Giselle Mather:

That's the first thing. Whenever that I mean, there were 25,000 for stadium at Bristol, 30,000 at Brighton, 42,500 in Sunderland. And you just I have no wish that it was me now, that we didn't have none of that, because I had such joy when we played. The things that we did were magical. My experiences are sensational. So for me personally, but I do have a big awareness that without what we did, this wouldn't be happening. So, and I think I think that's the same through all women's sport, you know, that the the football, the cricket, all of us have done stuff, hockey, we've all done netball, we've all done it, haven't we? Where we're paying for everything ourselves and working it all out, and some of the team are actually organizing things off the field. And in order that we get to this stage now where commercial people are interested, sponsors, business, that the media now, the visibility, that all that former stuff has to happen. And I'm immensely proud that I was part of that.

Sue Anstiss:

Back to the beginning, but getting started when you did in rugby, like it wasn't a popular sport for women to play. Why do you think it attracted you in that way that others like me at Lovebrook at the time wasn't attracted to it? But why do you think it was that you found that as your sport?

Giselle Mather:

Okay, so when I was 12 years old, on my birthday, my father took me and my brother to Wembley to see England-Brazil men on my ad, because the women weren't doing that at that stage. I play football. And it was my first major experience of a of an international. And as I walked up to the in the the concourse and you got up to the pitch, I will never forget how I was hit by the noise, by the colour, the pitch, the bright green kit, the players out on it, ready to go, just the whole thing, the noise, everything. Then went to our seats, watched the national anthems, and was like, oh my god, this is just so amazing. Watched the game, and uh from that moment on I thought I want to represent my country, but I didn't know it what sport. So I spent the next, to cut a long story short, the next 10 years, I went, I did hockey, got to South of England that, but never good enough to go up to that. I played netball at county level, I fenced for the southwest of England, I did judo, I did cricket, I did football, all of the stuff that you you do, but did well, but never to the international level. Went to university and found rugby. And all of a sudden, the fact that I had played football and could kick a ball, the fact I played netborne and had great hands that could pass the ball, the fact that I'd done judo and was comfortable with my body being hit and me throwing people about the place, the fencing was good for my footwork, the hockey, the tactics and the teamwork, cricket, hand eye cord, and everything. And all of a sudden, it was like, this is where I'm meant to be. This is the sport. And I went through things very, very quickly because I I could do all that because of all the stuff that I'd done. And I think, you know, with my own kids and and with the kids that I've taught and what have you, I've always said nothing is a waste of time. You just never know when it's going to be. So give it everything you've got at that particular time because you just never know when you might need that skill, when that skill becomes part of you and what what you want. And yeah, there's some things that you may do that you never really understand why, but the transference of different skills and different things, I think, is massively valuable. And those experiences gave me the opportunity to represent my country.

Sue Anstiss:

So great effort for not specializing too soon in the multi-sport, isn't it? I think that when you I haven't heard you talk about it in that way before, but like all of those elements that contribute to making you a great player. In terms of coaching, what was your first coaching experience? Obviously, you're a P teacher, but coaching rugby, when did that first start?

Giselle Mather:

So I had a little bit of an experience um with a men's team, funnily enough, which my husband, well, he wasn't my husband at the time, but was playing for. It was very like low-level stuff. And then when I finished playing to have my family, I was asked by England to take the development side and England development side across to the European Championships. I'd been doing lots of little things and bits and bobs and had done some of my coaching award as we travelled, the journey of playing. But that experience, it was three games again in nine days. I had Jasper with me, who was eight months old at the time, and Jeff Richards, who was the head coach of the full England side, said to me, Have you ever taken away an international psych coach and before I looked at him? I was like, No. So he sat me down and explained what would be happening, broke down the days of what I needed to do. And I'm so glad he did that because otherwise it would have been a massive, it would have been an epic fail for me, I think. But I was prepared for it. I knew what was going to happen. At two o'clock in the morning after the first game, I'm sat there doing all the analysis. Because at that time, I mean, just the fact that I was asked to do that is one of my major early experiences. There weren't loads of staff. There was me, another coach, no analyst. We had a medic, no strength and conditioner. It was pretty much that was what it was. So I'm there analysing the game, ready to prepare for the players at nine o'clock. Jasper's awake in the rocket tots and my foot's on that, going, trying to get him, you know, settled to go back to sleep, all the stuff ready to go again. But at the end of that, I was absolutely exhausted, but I absolutely loved it. And I thought, yeah, this is this is what's going to be next. This is this is the next thing for me. So, and then I went into Wasps, um, WASP women and and worked with them regularly, and then the career just started to roll.

Sue Anstiss:

And I mentioned in introduction that you were the first woman to achieve the RFU's level four coaching qualification. Did you appreciate at the time what a momentous thing that was to have achieved?

Giselle Mather:

Um, I knew I needed it if I was going to do the fulfill what I wanted to fulfill, because as the sole, pretty much sole female coaching at that time, I needed the gravitas of a qualification in a way that showed people that I did know what I was about. By that stage, I had done my level three, which was quite a significant thing in my career, that there were a hundred guys in the room and me and my six-week-old daughter, Roxy. She had just been born, and I knew that I was ready to do it, but also was feeding her. So I rang up the RFU and said, Is it okay that I bring Roxy along? I appreciate that if she suddenly screams or loses the plot and I have to take her out to sort her out and I fail because of that, so be it. She's my responsibility, but I'm ready to do the course, so I I need to be able to do it. So they said, Oh, we'll get back to you. Obviously, never having had a request like that before. So I get this um phone call back that basically said, if you're discreet, it'll be fine. And I thought, yeah, there's a hundred guys in the room. I'm gonna be going, woo, come on, you know, please. But anyway, I went with her. So when she was awake, she was in the little papoose as I was doing all my work on the boards and discussing what I needed to do. When she was asleep, she was in the rock at basically I was in a group of four with Toby Booth, who was the head coach of the Academy at London Irish Men at the time. We then finished that course, both of us passed, both he and I, and um, then we went on for a year coaching, and then you come back for the last weekend where you've got to do the same thing. And funnily enough, I was in his group again, and the chances of that happening are very serendipitous. And again, he had to listen to me talk about rugby for 24 hours, and I had to do the same with him. At this stage, Roxy didn't need to be there because she was a year old. And then four months after that of qualifying, he rang me and said, I would like you to coach in the EPDGs, which is elite player development groups at London Irish Men, who are their young players who they've got their eye on to become future first team club players. And because he'd had to listen to me talk and and me him, he didn't care that I was female. He knew I knew what I was talking about. He knew that I could do the job, and he gave me the opportunity to do that. So off I went, did all that, absolutely loved it. Progress with and several of those players that I took then have now had England men's international honours. And then from that came a full-time job at London Irish to Take Their Ace program, which is a again, it's an everyday program for 16 to 18-year-old boys who are working in the state system, um, in the in the state schools, not rather than private schools, which at the time a lot of rugby was just private schools. So I had to set up that programme, started with just eight boys in year one, then developed it to 25 boys. Again, there are four or five international rugby players that have come from that, but also several premiership players have come from that. But it was because of that, Toby, understanding that I knew what I was about and not giving them monkeys that I was female and giving me the opportunity because he knew that I could do it. And that is something that I feel anyone who has a position of responsibility and has the opportunity to hire, need to throw that open and look and don't care about all the other stuff that history says or culture says or society says. Just go, this person's right for the job, this person could do the job, they're gonna get it. And because of that, my career was able to go in the direction that it's gone.

Sue Anstiss:

I'm gonna come back to that because I think we don't see as many men like him, perhaps in sport. Do you approach the way that you coach men and women differently? So coaching those young male athletes, is that different to how you coached WASP women before?

Giselle Mather:

Uh yes, but not because of gender. I think the most important thing is what is the individual in front of you? What is their why? What are they there for, and what are they doing it for? And once you get to the bottom of that, that's what you coach. So all the groups that I coached, the boys, the 16 to 18-year-old boys were desperate to be elite players. They wanted a full-time career in rugby. So they were all about the technical, the tactical, the ability, the understanding of what was required of them, the professional behaviours. But when you go to, for example, Teddington men that I coached, their why was the camaraderie together. They loved each other's company and they loved sport and they loved exercise and wanted fitness, beach bodies, all of that stuff was what they were about. But they wanted to perform, but they wanted to be together. So you coached that group in a different way. The WAS women. The first time I coached them to start with, they're in 2002 to 2005, they they a lot of them were international rugby players, very they were already established in that way. They wanted to get better, they wanted to enjoy it, they were holding down full-time jobs, so you had to look at how you managed all of that. When I coached them the next time, they were in the premiership, but always at the bottom of it. It was a mixture of social, but the club wanted them to become wasps and and and what was about. And the players were looking for that, but weren't quite sure how to get there. So that was a different thing. The barbarians was all about representing the spirit of rugby and loving each other's company and playing with people different and the magic of the barbarians. So you've got to what I always try to do is what is this group here for? Why it, why are they here? And how can I get the best out of them? It's not about whether they're men or women. And also the stereotypical stuff, 80% of what you think women would be. I've got 20% of guys that are like that. And 80% of the men and have got, do you know what I mean? There's always that difference. So just because it's a male or a female in front of me doesn't mean they're going to be what society thinks a man or a woman should be. They are an elite athlete as an individual in their own right, and they want whatever it is that they want.

Sue Anstiss:

You mentioned the Tellington men there. I believe you went on to lead them to three promotions, an incredible 62-game unbeaten run. And although I do not disagreeing with you, I completely agree that we can coach men and women, you know, they have different needs and requirements. But I'm sure you must have had some pushback as a woman in that environment. Well, I'm assuming you did. So did you? Did you deal with that? Either whether that's from the players or parents or other coaches? How did you deal with that?

Giselle Mather:

Um, I think again, the actual players, whatever it's players, what players want is to be challenged in a session, for it to be intense so they feel they've done something, they want to learn and develop and they want to enjoy it. And if all four of those things are present, and I don't think that's just in sport, I think it's in business, in anything you do, if you're a motivated human being that has turned up somewhere, those are the four things you want. You then add, and they're every session. You want that kind of stuff the whole time. Then you add on the piece of value and recognition, valuing the person that's there, feeling valued in the group, feeling the sense of belonging and recognition when things are going well or things have improved. If you've got all of those things, then I don't think the players give a two-bit who's in front of them. They don't care that I'm a woman. They forget that I'm a woman. I am their coach and I'm providing that environment for them. So at Tennington, the very first session that I took, obviously the boys that were there did not know me at all. It was early doors in my career, but I was asked to go down and would I be interested? So I said, well, let me do a couple of guest sessions. Just introduce me as a guest coach for the time being, and I'll see whether I think I can add value to that group, and we'll see how that goes. Well, in the very first session, there was a guy in the group who, metaphorically speaking, had tattooed across his head, what the hell do you know? Right? Why are you here virtually? So session starts, and within two minutes, he gives a question at me. So I answer his question, we crack on. Five minutes later, he comes at me again, and it's passive aggressive all the way through. He's coming at me. So I was like, I answered his question again. Then I turn the dial just a little bit on the intensity of the session. Then he comes at me a third time. I answered his question and then we went on. He didn't ask me any other questions. The session went on. He came up to me afterwards and said, That's one of the best sessions I've ever had on side. Second week, the captain of the team had not been at the first session. He then rocks up at the second one, having heard from the boys that there's this woman who's come down to coach them. Anyway, I do the session and he makes a really, you know, he makes an error at the beginning of it. So I was like, no, stop. And the whole thing was, whichever group makes the error, you have to wait and we're seeing which groups wins. And he was like, Oh, but but I went, no, no, no, no, stop. And he was like, and after that, had him totally on board. And I think whenever you go into an environment where you feel that it's potentially threatening, it's different, people might not take, you just got to be really, really well prepared, be you, get out there, right on from front and lead right from the beginning, and then you've got half a chance of building up. And as I say, challenge of the session, the intensity, always them learning and developing, always having fun. And then in the whole thing, add in that value and recognition. And if you've got that, the players are running, they're happy, they're doing. And each and every one of them is getting what they want from what they do.

Sue Anstiss:

Do you think there's a danger sometimes, and not just in rugby and other sports too, that we see women as the people to coach the young children, the development, but once it becomes more elite, you know, men need to step in. Do you think clubs feel that way? Do you think some of the athletes, men and women feel that too?

Giselle Mather:

It's mind-blowing that we're still at that stage. For me, this is where I, you know, the the the humility piece and and the person that you you spoke about before, Stephanie Sword Williams wrote this book called F-U-C-K being humble. And what she's actually about is why self-promotion isn't a dirty word. Now, as a typical female, I don't like to talk about the things that I've done. I struggle with the social media promotion of self, all of those things, right? And whether it's my age, whether it's society, whether it's whatever, I do struggle with that. But I am at this moment now, I should say that I'm unapologetically proud of what I've done and I'm good at what I do, and I am. The fact that we are now in a situation where coaching is viewed as, oh, you finish your playing career and you walk onto a pitch and can coach. Now, yes, the technical, ex-players, straight off the pitch, really good at the technical, absolutely, totally support it. But all the things that coaching is about, all the other stuff about the human being, about getting the best out of every human being, about putting the human beings into a team, and you know, how that team molds together. And I'm sure everyone on this call can sit and think of groups of people they work in, and there'll be that one person that every time they say something, you go, drives me mad, and it stops you performing because it becomes a block. And you all of you will be thinking of someone now, and then there's somebody on your team that everyone goes to and is the energy behind your team. And as a coach, it's my job to have the difficult conversations with the people who might be blocking others' performance and just not aware of it. It's my job to raise self-awareness of every every individual, my job to get them to know each other as a team and to form that culture that allows all of them to be the best they can be. Now, why does a player coming off the field have that automatically? Coaching is a profession that needs to be worked at and done. So people who are now working at the grassroots, they're learning stuff that professional coaches probably never even learn because youngsters teach you so much. My whole coaching backed on 14 years of teaching, youngsters teach you so much, it's raw. They say they say it as it is. If they're fed up, they're straight away. You know, it's like, you know it. It's not professional behaviors. It's they'll talk about things they're not happy with. They'll they'll have a massive go at another kid who's said something they don't like because they don't realize that that's not really the way to deal with it. So you're constantly seeing all these things from young people, grassroots coaches, as they travel the journey, you become more and more aware of what's necessary, more and more skilled at that. And so players, people just coming off the field, be they're male or female, it's not uh this is not anti-male at all. But coaching is a profession and needs to be learned and valued. And the people who've been doing it for years, be they male or female, have so much to offer in this field to help bring up others rather than watching them make mistakes. And the thing that really annoys me, and I'm being brutally honest here, the women that we coach at PWR, at elite level, at internet, they are international rugby players. They are elite sportswomen. They're having experiences now, all the girls that are playing in this World Cup, playing in front of 25,000 people, week in, week out at the moment, that experience is huge. So why would you not put in front of them a really experienced coach? Why do you think that it's okay to bring somebody just off of a field? And maybe that's controversial. Bringing them in to do technical, but giving them the full thing, it it's too in-depth a profession. And players only have one career. It's short. So they want the very best that they can have at any given time. And personally, I think they deserve it.

Sue Anstiss:

When you say bringing a player off a field, an international player into coaching, I think we're referring more generally to male players here and and some female players also in that way. But what where do you feel we are right now? General question, but for women coaching in rugby in terms of PWR elite teams. I think there's only three, is there three coaches, one co-coach, two head coaches in this current Rugby World Cup? None, no head coach, female coaches in the PWR right now. So what are your thoughts, Giselle?

Giselle Mather:

Well, I it used to be that we were told women aren't ready. And you know what? After all I've just said, I agree with that. We were coming off the field, the evolution of the game, because it's not it's not that old, really, is it? You know, the 91 World Cup was where all of this really took off 86, 87, when the club game started in universities. So it's not that old. So women needed to go through that experience of playing and understanding the game and then moving into coaching and learning all these skills. But to say to us now, we're not ready, when you then say to a male player, straight in off the field, that to me is an opsymoron that I can't square that circle for love and money. But I think we are ready. We're more than ready now. There are all these programs that are in place: the Elevate Program, Gallagher World High Performance Academies, where women are getting that kind of information. We've got lots of programs now where women are put into international environments to learn and see what's going on. All of that is fantastic. But it is the people that are hiring. So the need for Toby Booth and others in my career, Neil Hatley, Gareth Cross, Kieran Beattie, who've all people who've gone, but she's she can do it. She's good, she can do it. And interestingly, I didn't name a female there. It's always been males that employ me. And it's is still very much of that ilk. It's those people, and then the owners of the clubs who are, with due respect, are older, who grew up in a generation where women didn't play sport at this level and were expected to be doing things with the kids all the time and the kitchen and the all of those stuff that we were expected to do as as women when we were f back in the 60s, and that's when and they're not aware or prepared to back female coaches. So it's those people that are the block at the moment, in my view.

Sue Anstiss:

And how can we change it then? Because we can't just wait for them not to be in those positions anymore. We got uh and I look across who's on this call today. It's maybe I'm not gonna shout you out by name, but some amazing women, female coaches up and coming in rugby. So, what's gonna make the change? What's gonna make the difference? No, you're in charge today. What would you do tomorrow to begin to shift that?

Giselle Mather:

I think athletes need to use their voice. There was, you know, some interesting stuff coming out from the Scotland camp where they said, we've never really had a people person that coached us. And that's no disrespect to people who are coaching there. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but they're, you know, it's talking to what players, particularly in the female game, are really needing and wanting. It's people like me, Susie Appleby, Joe Yap, uh, Rachel Taylor, speaking to these people and actually asking them to properly listen about what it is we're about and what we see and how we uh how we work. It's giving opportunity and being brave to give that opportunity because if you look at this current World Cup, one of their commitments was to female empowerment. The board who's run this World Cup is 100% female. When I caveat this, this is nothing against men, nothing against men whatsoever. I have some amazing male counterparts in this who've either supported me or I've worked with. And I think a lot of men who haven't had elite careers in rugby struggle with some of this stuff too. They don't get taken seriously as coaches because they haven't played the game at elite level, which again is categorically wrong. There's some amazing male coaches who haven't played the game, they've studied it, they've looked at it, they see it in a different way. But when you look at this current World Cup, as I'm saying, the board is 100% female, 70% of the work's workforce is female, and I could give you loads more about it, but even the the team that are going to prepare the pitch at Twickenham for the final is all female. How cool is that? So opportunities are being given to women through this World Cup. And do you know what? What a bloody good job they've done. Look at this World Cup, it's the best World Cup ever. There are packed out stadiums, there are people so who says women can't do it? We need to be given opportunity to show the skill sets that we've got. And maybe this is a generalization, and and but when women get that opportunity, my God, do they work? Card to do and be the best that they can be. They in most women that I've worked with inherently then care about the level. It's not just a job to them, it's way more than that. So you get more from them on that. And I just think that those that hire need to see that. They need to be in rooms and environments on these things. And they need to see, they need to hear, and they need to know that the female coaches that are out there are just as good, different skill sets as their male counterparts in times. And I don't want to generalize that 80-20% thing again. But what you really need is a balanced coaching team. And the more balanced it is, the more the athletes that you coach, particularly in a sport like rugby, which has got a lot of people involved, a lot of players, the players will connect to at least one person on that coaching team. I'd be desperately arrogant and naive to believe that everyone in my squad thinks it's me that they connect with. There's no way, but they might connect to my strength and conditioning coach, they might connect to my to the medic, to the assistant coach, to the mentor, whoever it may be. You need those people to be diverse, males and females. And this is also in the men's game. You need women's presence there as well. And when I worked at London Irish, the amount of senior players that would come in and talk to me because they couldn't talk to the male coaches about it, because they were perceived that they might be seen as weak, or I had a different viewpoint on how they could solve that issue and that block to their performance. You need a diverse coached team at men and female sport.

Sue Anstiss:

And if those men at the senior level aren't going to listen to you when you go talk to, what's your thoughts? And I know a little bit of this anyway, but what's your thoughts on quotas? And I we guess we've seen that within Worldby and they're having to have a female assistant coach in place within each of the national teams. But what's your thought on imposing a number of people that need to be in place in teens?

Giselle Mather:

I do feel that governance has a big role in all of this, because, as you say, can't make people change their mind. They're the money men, they're doing this and that. And you can see that there's all sorts of problems in the men, men's game because of that, because it's the money men that are running the show, and there's a lot of things that you can't change because rugby's model is based upon that kind of model of where somebody's holding the purse strings and and has a lot of money, and without it, the professionalism breaks down and you'd have to go back to amateur or semi-pro. So they I'm not disrespecting them at all, but I I really want them to be involved in seeing the differences now that are there. So governance has a big role, but quotas for me as a woman, if ever a quota issue comes along, I feel that the people that you're working with go, oh yeah, but she's just here because of that, because we have to. Therefore, you don't get the opportunity or the respect that you should have the moment you walk through the door. There's always you're fighting something before you even start. And it is tough enough at the moment breaking these glass ceilings down. And there'll be women on the call who are breaking their glass ceilings in all areas of of sport, not just in on the field and coaching, but in the commercial side of it, getting opportunity, all of the rest of it that will relate to this. It's tough enough as it is to then have that, oh, you're only here because you were quota. Nobody necessarily has to say it like that, but you can you see it, you sense it, you know it. And I do know that some of the people who've been put into the international environment don't feel they've been given the jobs they should have got when they're there. They almost feel like a spare part and they're not being given the opportunity because, oh, well, you're here because you've been given to us, not because you've earned it. Do you know what I mean? There's a lot of stuff there that you then have to fight against. And so that's why I'm against actual full-on quotas, but I am very pro that governance should be involved. So, for example, organizations don't get some of their funding if they're not investing in a diverse workforce, if they're not looking for that's different because then the company's got to go out and look for the right people, make effort, not we're putting somebody in as a quota or you have to do. They're actually having to look for it because some of their funding depends upon a diverse workforce. That's to me different. It's getting to the same point, but in a different way. So the people that are coming in have been looked for, and that to me is a slightly different thing than saying you have to. But um, it it's about the individual, how they have to balance what that actually means when they walk through the door in an environment that's already pretty tough.

Sue Anstiss:

And are you hopeful for where we are now? Where do you think we might be? Ten years' time, you look back at women's coaching across rugby, but across elite sport more broadly. Do you feel we're we're moving in the right direction?

Giselle Mather:

I'm always hopeful, Sue. I'm an optimistic person, I always have been. So, yes, the fact that the PWR has gone backwards, and it has, so you can't hide from that, it has gone backwards. The World Cup head coach has gone forwards, but what happens after this World Cup, Joey Upp is already not going to be coaching in Australia. Don't know yet what Leslie McKenzie and what Gal Mignon are choosing to do. So there's more women in and around the environments, but not leading those environments. So in that way, it's going forward. But yeah, look at look at what happened from my 91 to now in terms of what's what's going on. Yes, I am hopeful. Yes, I think that the what a coach is and what it means and the profession itself will become more valued and people understand how essential it is and how difficult it is and the skill set needed for it. That's happening. And women's sport is in a place that we could only have dreamed about 10 years ago. So following that, coaching is always one of the last things that people look at. I don't know why, but it is. So it will come behind the movement that we're in. So, yes, I am hugely optimistic. There are concerns. The fact that the game is just exploding right now, that means that the job applications will start coming more from people who haven't worked in the women's sport, that see it as got visibility, got a platform. And the one thing that I will want to go on record, we're not the women's game is not a stepping stone to work in the women's game. It absolutely isn't. It's a game in its own right with incredible athletes, wonderful people, and needs to be seen like that. It's not a stepping stone for something else.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, absolutely. You've obviously done all this alongside raising a family, three children. Any advice do you give to women that might be on the call that are interested in pursuing careers and having a career like you while also raising a family?

Giselle Mather:

Well, first and ultimate, it you can do it. You've got you've just got to find a way, right? You can do it. I've loved doing it alongside that. Personal organization, massive. The biggest lesson to me there. When I was coaching the, I was assistant coach to the Red Roses. We weren't, they weren't known as Red Roses back then, but 2004 to 2006, and that World Cup in Canada. 12 weeks before that, we were going to be in camp all the way through, coming home, going back. And my kids at the time were 6'4 and 2. And so the there's a guy called John Neal, who was a performance coach, was working with us. And he said, right, Giselle, your homework is you need to go back now. This is three, four months before the camp. He said, I want to see a 12-week organizational chart of who's looking after your kids when, who's picking up when you're in camp. So I went away and I did that and I showed it to him. He sent me back, said that's not enough. There's not enough detail in that. So I did it again. I then came to him and said, right, that's excellent. He said, now on that Wednesday, particular Wednesday, he picked it out. He said, the person you've got to pick up your kids is sick and can't do it. What are you going to do now? He said, I need this whole thing as backup plan. I was like, you're choking. So I then had to make loads of calls to all sorts of people to say, right, if this happens, could you be on standby? Would you be this? Would you be that? So reprepared it all and then handed that in. He said, right, now we're ready to go. And he was absolutely right that once I then was with the squad, I knew everything back home was fine. I knew all three of my kids were going to be fine. I knew that I had a backup plan if something went wrong. And I was able to be me in that coaching environment. I think the second thing is that you have to develop the ability to leave things behind. So what I mean by that is that let's just say I'd been running around like an idiot, and one of my kids kicked off and had a tantrum from hell. And then my husband's like, I've got to go to work, I can't deal with this now, and I'm dealing with all sorts of stuff. I then drive to work, and then just before I got out to be at work, I would sit in the car, de-stress. Okay, I'll pick that up when I come back, go out and be me in the coaching environment. Then when I get back in the car, right, why am I this morning? How am I gonna deal with that when I get home? And and that, never bringing it into the environment. And London Irish working with, because it was only me as a performance coach and a fabulous physio, could call Jodie Clark. We were in two females in that environment, and I learned that from them. And then the last piece of advice I would give is people know what you're doing. So again at London Irish, I was working with three guys, all who had family, all kids, similar age to mine. And they would get into the environment at seven o'clock in the morning. I would arrive at nine, and then there would be some, every now and again a comment would come out as, oh, well, you know, in she rocks, whatever. So I went, right, boys, sit down. I said, can you tell me what you've done from seven o'clock in the morning, please? So they said, Oh, we did a gym workout together, we've showered, we've had a coffee, we've had a chat about whatever was on the TV last night, and now we're ready to go. I said, right, let me tell you what I've done. I said, I've had three kids, got them all dressed and ready for school for three different schools they were at this time. Three packed lunches with what they like in the pack lunches. I've then made sure that they've got their pea kit in the bags and I've done this and that. I've driven each of them to the three schools and now I'm here. So we haven't done anything that's made a difference. And they all went, right, fine. And being upfront about what it is you are doing before you work through the door, I think's really important. And they respected me for it. They supported me from then on in, and I never got any of that snide stuck. Might have gone on before when people don't understand why you haven't come in at seven o'clock in the morning.

Sue Anstiss:

Brilliant, brilliant stuff. I I've got a great question here from Rebecca Fitzgerald who says, To what extent have other women supported or enabled your journey? And have you ever encountered any situations where women have tried to hold you back? Which is kind of interesting, isn't it? That I think we talk about women supporting women in a super collaborative, supportive environment. Is that what you've have found during your career in sport? Yes to both.

Giselle Mather:

Being the only woman at the table, I think that has been in the past. I think I've had to navigate that. I'm not going to go into detail. I've had to navigate that, but I've also had some amazing women that have been supportive. I feel now with my knowledge, my understanding, my own growth, it's my job now to try to pull females up, to look out for females. Because with that knowledge, I know what they're going through. I know that it's tough. I know that it's hard. I know all sorts of things that might help women. So it's my job to do that. It's also reality checks as well, I think sometimes to say, well, are you ready for that? Are you really ready for that right now? This is what I think you need to be doing. There are lots of things there, but it's different when it's a a female that puts the block on. It sits in a slightly different place. I'm I'm used to that from some of the males that I've worked with who've just kind of thought, what the hell are you doing here? Who are you? You know, all of that stuff because I'm different, because I'm female, and I've had that too. And the thing that I would say there is whenever there is a block, it's about me knowing who I am as a coach, me knowing and trusting in what the work that I've done. Not everyone's going to like me. Not everyone's going to support me. Not everybody wants me to succeed, but knowing what I'm about and why. And I think the biggest thing for me there, when people have dealt cards to me that I don't feel should have been dealt that way, is staying in integrity to myself and knowing that I will answer and say what I believe to be right in order that when I put my head on the pillow every night, I can be in integrity to myself. And if I lose a job because of that, so be it, because I believe that further down the line, as I said earlier about all the skills that I did with my sport, everything I do is an experience, is a learning experience. If I experience it, maybe my athlete's experiencing it, you know, helps me being more empathic. It helps me connect to every individual that I work with because human being before athlete is my coaching philosophy, and I have to live that every day. And when I've lost a job, one or two jobs, I have lost because I've said this isn't right, and stood by that and not allowed things to happen that I don't believe would be right to happen, be they from males or from females. And that pays back later on down the line.

Sue Anstiss:

We need the alternative, Giselle May, the No Holds Bard podcast where we uh go behind the scenes. There's a fabulous question here from Sarah Paris, mum to international rugby players. What's one thing that world rugby can do to have the biggest impact, to at least start leveling the playing field across international women's teams? So the likes of USA and Canada don't have to fundraise, girls don't have to work while also playing at a World Cup. So clearly we are seeing world rugby do work to have impact, but what where do you feel the biggest impact could be?

Giselle Mather:

For me, I would say visibility. So the Samoan girls have just hit massive visibility. They made such an impact at this World Cup in what they've bought and the flavour they've bought and how they fought to compete, and it's been tough out on the field. They've had some big scores go against them, but you never saw their heads drop. The Japanese girls bought their flavour to the World Cup. The Fijians, all of which are in this place of not equality and not level playing fields. Sadly, it comes down to money and resource, but there is still an awful lot that can be done. And I've had several jobs. The Teddington Antas job was not with resource. I'm telling you that now. We had to wheel lights out onto the pitch to train. But you find ways, but it's an evolutionary process, and that visibility, there will be people out there now who've seen that who will want to help. Their own unions will now have to look at how they address the finance between male and female rugby, the female game attracting the crowds and the visibility that it is, the trouble that the men's game's in at the moment. I think everybody has to stop and look. And the visibility, the broadcast, the media, the social media that the players do themselves, that is what is raising the consciousness of people. And when people's consciousness is raised, they demand that things are done about it. When the visibility is there, people are listening. So that would be my biggest thing that this visibility piece needs to carry on. We don't want now Samoa to disappear for the next four years and not be heard of. We've got to get them more internationals. That would be a place that then raises their visibility, gives them something to properly train for. So it's the visibility piece and getting games on and opportunities for people to play.

Sue Anstiss:

It's interesting, isn't it? I won't go into this in detail, but it's interesting when Canada are doing so well and could do so well, but actually not being fully funded. There's almost a negative piece where the danger is a governing body could say, Well, that's you didn't need the funding because look how well you do without it.

Giselle Mather:

Well, but for me, that's the pressure on the roses. They have had all the support. Therefore, if they deliver, every team can go see. If you give us the support, this is what happens. Now, the Canadians, though, have been unbelievably smart. Kevin Ruil, who is their head coach, I have so much respect for. He is a guy who has not had a massive resource, so he has worked it out. He has found different ways. He's placed players in every club in the PWR. So they've got access to the best league in the world and are getting the same uh competition exposure as the Red Roses are, um, and the training environments that the Red Roses are and all the other top players in the world. They compete regularly, which is why you see such a difference in their performance now. He was the only head coach who came on the World Seven Series with Canada. He came with Canada. No other head coach did that to their own national side. And he spent two tournaments working with those girls. So when they transitioned across to the environment for Canada, he was totally on board with where they're at, what they're doing. He was helping them all the time. He's got WhatsApp groups with the whole team on the offer the weekend games and they talk. He's done camps in Canada. He does camps over here. The guy works so hard and has been so smart in how to use limited resources to get high performance. And I have huge respect for how the Canadians are playing the game. I love watching them play. They stick to what they're about, and they are a real, real threat this Friday night to New Zealand.

Sue Anstiss:

Can't wait. And actually, that leads me very nicely into a question from Michelle Van Roon. Great question. How important is the game of sevens for the continued development of the 15s game in women's rugby? As many people will only come to the sport 12 years after their male counterparts.

Giselle Mather:

Okay, so I'm obviously a lot more informed now on that one than I was a year ago, having spent the year being um the head coach to GB Sevens, which again, from a coaching place, that was mind-blowing in my learning. And to get that much learning at this stage of my career was a massive privilege. But to take on the leadership of a sport that isn't solely my sport was something else. But anyway, that's another story altogether. But the Sevens game, having lived it right up close, wow, the game demands so much from the athletes that play it, let alone, you know, themselves what they demand. You have to be able to pass the ball 10 to 15 metres accurately off both hands to play the game. You have to be ludicrously fit. You have to be able to make your one-on-one tackles because there's only seven of you on the field to do that anytime. So, yes, there's still double tackles. Yes, there's all of those things. You have to make great decisions, you have to read what's going to happen next when you're absolutely shattered. It's a sport that really complements 15s if used well, because as I say, the game demands that. And you only have to look at the current Red Roses back line. Virtually all of them, depending on who you would select for the World Cup final, if each of you was the coach of it, have all spent time. At least five of the seven have spent a quality amount of time in the game of sevens, which is why their skill set is higher than those who haven't, and why they are the ones in the shirts. So I think sevens has a huge place. It's also a lot of fun. When this World Cup finishes, go to primary schools. They can't get 15 kids on a field and do scrums and line-outs and all that, but they can certainly put seven of them on the field. Touch rugby should be more connected with rugby in general because a lot of kids will start the game through that and their love of the game. And the biggest thing for the youngsters is the thrill of running with the ball. There's something, if any of you haven't done it, find a way to get down and play touch because touch is a mixture of girls and guys. There's also walking rugby, but moving with the ball, I can't describe it. And kids get that. You see, the first time they run with the ball and they run past someone, their little faces just light up because it's so liberating. And the kids will go back to primary school is sevens. So they'll start with that. So let's really celebrate, and the two should be running side by side.

Sue Anstiss:

Thank you. Yeah, and I'm sorry I haven't got time for everybody's questions here. I'm just going to wrap up with one final question, Giselle. What does success look like for you in the next five years?

Giselle Mather:

I'm currently between jobs because obviously the sevens thing has done what it's done, and not all contracts terminated as they change it from a full-time programme to a part-time programme. I have got my eye on one particular job where I think my skill set would be really good for the current group of players that are there and for where that particular program is in space, but I'm not going to say anything now. It's something that I think I would really like to go for and and and do. But I also have, I think I've got a lot to add in terms of the women's game. I've really enjoyed the commentating work that I do in the media of bringing that and highlighting the game in that respect. But anything that empowers people to have a go at something, to get better at something. I I love elite sport, I love elite anything, like watching, I don't know, Coldplay, right? I'm a massive Coldplay fan. I went to see them on Friday night. But the four of them up there, that's elite performance, entertaining 80,000 people in the way that they do. Any elite performance, I just wow, because I know what's going on underneath to get people to be at that stage and the passion and the energy and the effort that's gone into doing that, and the little incremental things, you know, that you you get better at all the time. And when you see elite performance, super special. So something that allows me to continue to push and let people fulfil their potential.

Sue Anstiss:

As always, it is such a pleasure and an inspiration to hear from Giselle. If you'd like to hear from other trailblazers in sport, there are over 200 episodes of the Game Changers that are all free to listen to on podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomen.co.uk. Guests include coaches like Giselle, along with elite athletes, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs, all women who are changing the game in sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 14,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us. The whole of my book, Game On, the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport, is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you to Sport England for backing the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective with a National Lottery Award. Thanks also to Sam Walker at WhatClows on Media, who does such an excellent job as our executive producer, and also to my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannon. The Game Changers is available on all podcast platforms, so please follow us now to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes. Do come and say hello on the social media where you'll find me on LinkedIn and Instagram at Zue Anston. The Game Changers.

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Sue Anstiss

Host
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Sam Walker

Producer