The Game Changers

Eboni Usoro-Brown: The reality for women in elite sport

• Sue Anstiss • Season 20 • Episode 5

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"Women in sport shouldn’t have to choose between motherhood and their career. We need real investment, policies and understanding to make both possible."

England netball legend Eboni Usoro-Brown (formerly Beckford-Chambers) wore the red dress 117 times across an extraordinary 15-year career, including that unforgettable Commonwealth Games gold in 2018.

A trailblazer on and off the court, Eboni has combined elite sport with a career in law, championed dual careers, and inspired so many through her return to professional netball after becoming a mother.

In this episode of The Game Changers podcast, Eboni shares her remarkable journey as we go behind the scenes of England’s dramatic 2018 Commonwealth Games Gold and explore the resilience and mental toughness needed to stay at the top for over a decade.

Eboni talks why every athlete needs a “Plan B”, the reality of returning to professional sport after pregnancy and her thoughts on the future of the Netball Super League.

Having been a massive fan of Eboni's for many years, Sue loved this powerful and inspiring conversation about chasing your dreams, overcoming challenges and leaving a legacy that opens doors for others.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Sue Anstiss:

Hello and welcome to the Game Changers the podcast, where I speak to trailblazing women in sport, the leaders, pioneers and rule breakers who are reshaping the world of sport for future generations. A big, big thank you to our partners, sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast with a National Lottery Award. Cast with a National Lottery Award. My guest today is an extraordinary woman whose career spans both elite sport and the legal world.

Sue Anstiss:

Ebony Asura-Brown, formerly known as Ebony Beckford-Chambers, is a former England netball international who earned over 100 caps across a phenomenal 15-year career. She was part of that unforgettable Commonwealth Games squad that made history in 2018, securing gold for England in one of the most dramatic netball finals ever. But Eben's story goes far beyond the court. Alongside competing at the highest level, she's also trained and qualified as a solicitor, balancing the intense demands of sport with her passion for law and justice. Ebony is a mother, a leader and a fierce advocate for women in sport, especially around dual careers and the challenges of returning to elite performance after pregnancy. So, ebony, I wonder if I can start on the Gold Coast and that extraordinary Commonwealth Games gold medal. But as you look back today, what are your overriding memories from that final game in Australia?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I look back and I think it's just pure joy. It was one of those moments where I jumped about as a little girl. I was one of those girls who sat at Wembley Arena and watched England played. As a youngster and just dreamed about wearing that dress and representing my country, and I think back then England were losing by 30 to Australia and New Zealand. So to be at that pivotal moment for our sport against the world's best in Australia and to get across the line in the fashion that we did with the team that we had, it was just one of those moments you can really dream about. So I'm just grateful for the opportunity to have been part of that team.

Sue Anstiss:

And when you went into the game that morning, did you personally feel that you could win?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Definitely. I think, jeeva and I we were sharing at the time and we probably only had about four hours sleep because we were so excited all night we were just like we've got to go to sleep, but just the the fact that we'd made the final and I think, even if we beat Jamaica in the semi-final by one. So I think in our minds anything would be possible and I think for us, when we have a coach like Tracy Neville, with her belief, her passion, just her knowledge of the game, it's in her we trusted and I think, in terms of executing the game plan, understanding our roles, at the time we said if we could stick to it, we could come out with a great result and luckily we did.

Sue Anstiss:

I love the thought of you and Jeeva like naughty little girls in your room, like chatting and not going to sleep. Yeah, no, it was was.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I just remember just lying there and just like, can you believe we actually did it? And I think it's that excitement that you, just you just realize in the moment you're on the, you're on the cusp of something really special, um, not only for yourselves, but all the the years, the hard work of the team behind the team, your family, your friends have been on that journey with you. So, regardless of what the result was going to be, we knew we were going to go home with a medal and I think it was really nice just to sit and live in that moment at that time.

Sue Anstiss:

And what was it like when you came back to the UK? Because the time I was up with my family middle of the night watching, but I think that that time difference did mean you perhaps didn't feel as connected to home and the netball community. So what was that like when you returned?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

it was absolutely pandemonium because, um, we, as you say, we hadn't realized being, I guess, one step away about how the country had gone netball mad, but also how many fans and new fans that come on the journey with us. It was only when we we landed back home on that british airways flight and the captain said, can the netball team stay behind? We were like what happened? So everyone else had left the plane and we got escorted through immigration, got our bags, we came out and it was through those doors in the arrival hall where we just saw that wall of paparazzi cameras absolutely flashing and we kind of then got an understanding as to how big that moment had actually been.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

So I think my only one regret was that only six of us out the 12 came home, because the other six were still playing in the Australian New Zealand, though it was only any of those athletes playing in the Super League over here that returned. So we really kind of shouldered the excitement and the the buzz and around it. But it was a phenomenal time for the sport and yeah, I look back on it really fondly.

Sue Anstiss:

And, as I mentioned in the introduction, you put on that red dress over a hundred times for your country. So what did it mean to you every time you, you ran out and did that change and evolve over time as you matured and played more?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Putting on the red dress for me I think, as I mentioned, I was that girl at Wembley, I think 12 years old, and mum took me there and that dream of playing in that environment in front of the English fans, just to do my family proud, myself proud, I think it's one of those things, like I said, I used to dream about through all the training sessions that were indoors or outdoors, in the rain, the snow. So I think, getting that opportunity in 2008, debuting against Malawi, having been the England under-21 captain, it really was that full circle moment in terms of working hard, setting a goal and not making excuses. Actually, what can come about if you kind of restate, stay the course? So to never mind getting the opportunity to wear the England dress only once, but well, 117 times. In the end, each and every single occasion was such a privilege and such an honour. I remember it was one of the one of my first coaches, lynn Gunton, and her words always stick my mind like it's easy getting into the England team.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

The hardest part is actually staying there, and especially in part, as like starting seven. So I never took it for granted and, as you say, sue, it did evolve as I, as I went through ranks. I started off as a young woman, ended up going to play in Australia, new Zealand, and find my trade there, professionally, coming back and obviously being part of the squad but also becoming a mother. During my time I was in the England Roses dress, so my goals and my values definitely evolved personally in amongst that team setting. But I couldn't be prouder of how I left the dress and hopefully inspired a few of those athletes coming behind me and you said that you alluded to that.

Sue Anstiss:

you played for a very long time and it does take time to, I guess, to stay in the team, to be able to stay in the team, but the resilience that it takes to stay, both mentally and physically, able to be making that squad over time, how demanding was it, do you think, for you personally, as you look back over all those years, to stay at the top of your game for so long.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I think it was hugely demanding and, I think, probably my greatest blessing now as I look back in terms of the mental resilience and toughness that the sport allowed me to build each and every single day.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

You had to have a level of self-belief that was unwavering compared to anything else. You had to believe in yourself. You had to make sure you put your best foot forward and you were giving 110% every single time because the competition was so fierce. But I think the lessons that I learned from that high performance or elite environment really did equip me with life skills now that I've transitioned out the sport, or even whilst I was in it and I was trying to forge my way in the legal sector. So I really put it down to one having the best support network around me friends, family, mentors, even backroom staff. So on those days where you're questioning, questioning if you're going to make it, I think they really kind of reinforce what your whys are and really kind of prior to that kind of nurturing and guiding hand throughout my journey in an England dress to allow me to go on to achieve what I did.

Sue Anstiss:

And were there moments when you thought you might step away from it all Were? You took that seriously and you thought actually this might be either too much or I've given too much of myself to it all.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

A hundred percent, I think. After we won gold in 2018 on the Gold Coast, we followed up that appearance with the World Cup in Liverpool in 2019 and it was a long slog over that four years and I got married at the end of 2018 and for me it was very much JK and I knew that we wanted to start a family. So I remember just being exhausted with a whistle blue in Liverpool We'd won a bronze medal, having beaten South Africa in the bronze medal playoff, and I actually thought that was my time over and done. And at the end of that 2019 year we wanted to start our family and luckily I fell pregnant before going into the 2020 season and I guess, unfortunately, obviously, covid then ensued and I was granted an enforced break. But I think that time away to become a mother, to obviously navigate the pandemic but also have the opportunity to return at the end of 2020 to a pre-season with my domestic team, team Bark, at the time was probably a real blessing in disguise.

Sue Anstiss:

And I want to talk to you more about motherhood and come on to that, but I would like to take you back to your younger years, if I can do just now, in terms of the beginning of your netball journey. So you've talked about being that 12-year-old at Wembley and watching the England team play, but what was the first club you played for? England team play, but what first? What was the first club you played for? Where did you grow up and how did netball start out as part of your life.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Oh so at school I was one of those kids who played absolutely everything.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I guessed that I thought that might be the case, yeah like you could throw me in anywhere and I would just give it a go.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

As to whether I was good at it or not was a different question.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

But, um, netball's probably where I found my passion, because most of my friends played the sport and I think it all goes back to having really great enthusiastic, passionate teachers, because that's where you kind of really learn and start to embed the, that feeling, that competitive spirit that sport really like gives to you. So from there, from playing at school, I joined a club called epsom downs I'm a Surrey based girl, locally so and it was a great coach called Eunice Smith who was an ex-England player who probably pushed me to my limits, probably recognized something or saw something in me that I probably didn't see myself at the time. And luckily I then went on to play for Surrey County and it was a Surrey County match that I was scouted for the England junior squad. So I know the pathway is very different now within netball itself, but I really put it down to the school teachers that I had really kind of advocating each of the sports and why to get involved and the benefits that could accrue from it.

Sue Anstiss:

Do you ever reflect on what other sports you might have done if you'd have taken a different path?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Oh, I'd love to say I would have been a gymnast. Now that I'm six foot one, I think I would have been a football player on even bars, or a tennis player, but I think Serena Williams has definitely got that covered. So, yeah, I'm glad that level ended up being for me.

Sue Anstiss:

And you're known for your defensive brilliance, that kind of unique style of play. So how did that develop across your career?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Were you always a defender? Um, I wasn't always a defender. So when I first got into England at the end of 17 ranks, um, they spent a year actually trying to make me a shooter. But I was trialled as a defender. So, um, I had one-on-one coaching with Lynn Carpenter, an ex-England international goal attack, putting up shots week in, week out. And I remember going to the European competition and I think I played the first quarter as a goal shooter and I think I got seven out of seven. The second quarter I got two out of nine and then, ever since that I was a defender.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Because we the inaccuracy, um, they're like we can use you, but I don't think it'll be in that attacking it. And why? Why was that, do you think? Um, I, I think they obviously saw my height. I thought. I thought, in terms of the nature of how I played, I was quite a, I guess, had a real good presence inside the circle and I really could hold my own. So I thought they probably needed that kind of prowess or that kind of characteristics in that attacking circle. So I'm grateful for the experience, but also I'm also glad that they thought I could stay as a defender and that I could still play a part on the team. I think my ability as a defender really developed over the coaches that I had whilst I was in that England set-up and it's just more understanding the game and also growing into, I guess, as puberty hits and as I developed, matured as a female athlete, understanding how my body moved and how I could utilise it to best effect.

Sue Anstiss:

And I play goalkeeper. Goal defence has been my position over all those years that I've played, and now walking netball, but what do you think makes a truly great defender?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

as you look across women playing in those positions, A truly great defender, I would have to say, has presence, is intimidating, has great communication skills, because as a defensive pairing, you you're very much leaving, also leaving the attack from the back. But I would say that the best thing I love about being a defender is the game smarts you have to have, like I think you're one step behind, obviously, the attack.

Sue Anstiss:

So, in terms of strategizing and breaking it down in the moment, making really quick decisions and acting upon them and trusting your instinct, I think those all qualities of a goal defense goalkeeper and in order to kind of really contribute to that team effort and you joined team bath in 2006 and part of an incredible squads that won the super league, I think, four times while you were there, and you also, as you mentioned, had since playing in Australia, in Perth and Adelaide, and then later returned to play in Queensland. But if you could look back and relive one match from across your career, club or country, what would it be? What holds the greatest memories? I might take the Commonwealth Games gold out of there, that's fine, I know, I think it's an interesting.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

You always ask me those couple of questions. I think the very first Super League title I ever won at Team Bath, those couple of questions, I think the very first super league title I ever won at team bath I think I owe lynn gunson university bath and team bath a great deal because, um, that's the really where the foundation for my skill set and who I am, I guess, was really built. I think they they had a philosophy is that you have to build the person off the court in order to affect the performance on it. And in the fact that I was able to study at the University of Bristol and also develop my, I guess, netball technical skills at Bath in a really supportive like an academy environment where there was about 20 girls at the time all searching for that same goal of wearing that England dress one day, I think I learnt the foundation of what it means to train consistently and to the standard required, through the strength and conditioning on court craft, the video analysis, the nutrition, the sport psychology of netball and how to prepare myself. So, um, that environment was one of the most enriching ones I've ever been in.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I say in terms of one of the greatest games. I think it was winning with that franchise, because I think that's where I first learned in terms of how hard work and commitment to a program and a vision and a mission really pays off. So that first taste, really winning at elite level, was probably really significant to me, and then, as you say, commonwealth Games, gold, but also probably when I won my 100th cap in Liverpool. So, as I say, being that kid wanting to wear the dress once and then getting to a century in front of a home crowd at a Home World Cup will live for me forever.

Sue Anstiss:

And to have family there. I imagine family and friends. It's lovely on home soil that you could have everyone there too.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Yeah, I think, if you ask any athlete, a home games or a home tournament is always the most rewarding, fulfilling emotional event, because they live and breathe the journey with you. My mum's, one of my greatest role models in my life, and to have her there just to witness my journey from the very start to the very end, even when I was retiring at Commonwealth Games in 2022, to have my husband and my daughter there, you know how much it means to them because they've lived the laughter, they've lived the tears, they've lived the injuries, so it just becomes one of those things in life that again, you just understand how strong that community is.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, so important. Takes a village and all that. And Netball is often considered to be more diverse and inclusive, I think, than other women's team sports. Did you feel that sense of inclusion as a player? Was Netball always a welcoming space for you as a woman of colour?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Yeah, very much. So I think I had great again, great models within the team, the likes of Sonia McClover, amanda Newton, who was the captain at the time. So there was, as you say, good representation of women of colour within my sport, and I always say that if you want to achieve it, you've got to see it, to believe it, to achieve it. And I was able to see the strong, independent, athletic, intelligent women in the team and I could. I allowed me to not only aspire but understand that. That's where I could be and be the best person that I could be, regardless of my race or my gender or anything else.

Sue Anstiss:

And is there more the sport can do? Do you think in terms of growing itself in diversity and making sure all girls feel that netball is a place they can be?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

There's always more all sport can do. I think it's one of those things that England and netball in particular. We've obviously got eight clubs in different areas around the country at the moment who support the elite game. However, there's lots of inner communities in London or up north that there's probably probably untouched resource and girls who probably don't have the access or the means in which to travel the distance in order to access, probably, elite training, although those leaks training environments. So I think there's always more investment that can come into the sport to allow for those opportunities, because we've seen how impactful sport can be when you have the opportunity to access it and get the quality coaching that we all really have the right to and deserve to access.

Sue Anstiss:

Absolutely. You mentioned earlier, in terms of motherhood, when you had your daughter Savannah and returned to Elite Netball. It really kind of made headlines at the time. So was returning to the sport always in your plan? You talked about that end of 2019 and then COVID, but in your mind did you feel you would come back? If I be?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

honest no, I didn't.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I think after 2019, it was.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I didn't announce my retirement, but I was just remember just feeling exhausted and I just ironically, if I reflect now I was potentially starting a family at that time a bit more of a oh.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

It's going to give me the break that I want, not really realizing what pregnancy and there's a toll that it takes in the body really entailed. But after getting pregnant with Savannah and having the conversation with Dr Anna Stembridge, who was my coach at the time, and but also just seeing the support that the University of Bath and Team Bath poured out to me at the time, it really kind of allowed me to kind of feel like, ok, I can do this and perhaps when I have the baby I could return. And the more that I went on, especially in those early months, that first trimester, it did then become a goal. I think there was no rush around it which allowed me the time, the space, the freedom to enjoy this new chapter and around it which allowed me the time, the space, the freedom to enjoy this new chapter, but also know that a community and something that had been part of my identity so long there's still a door open.

Sue Anstiss:

It didn't mean the signal, the end of my career, if I didn't want it to be. And I think just to clarify for those that might not be as big a netball fan, but Anna Stenbridge is Anna Mays as was so you'd worked with as an England national coach, kind of in prior existence, almost before her then being in the Bath role.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Yeah, so Anna and I she was my coach under 21s, I'd played with Ella at Bath and then she had been my coach for a number of seasons, so we'd had a really strong relationship. To be honest, I think again I'm really grateful, probably, that she was the head coach at that time, because the level of understanding as to who I was away from the court I think was really impactful and critical in terms of my decision as to return thereafter.

Sue Anstiss:

I was going to ask you about mentors and other teammates and so on that have had a big impact on your career and I feel I mean, she's an amazing woman, isn't she? But clearly Jess Thelby was there at Bath too, so I guess that whole importance of having that team around to enable your return it's huge.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

It's huge, and I think we talk about the relationship between the athlete and the coach and how important that is, how trusted that is.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

But I couldn't have done what I did without their support and the importance of mentors, the importance of having women who are supporting other women in all those spaces not just in terms of that output on the court is so necessary. I think at the time I was also doing my training contracts or I'd just finished my training contract contract, so I had a really supportive partner at my law firm at the time who really understood what my aspirations were, what my ambitions were, and provided a space where they were. They were more solution focused rather than seeing it as a hindrance or a problem. So it's about being, I guess, as an individual, just committing to what it is you want to do, or articulating what it is you want to do, committing to the, the steps or the boundaries or markers that are placed in front of you, but also working with those around you to try and make sure that you can achieve them and do them to the best of your ability.

Sue Anstiss:

And what was the reality of that comeback like in terms of how you felt emotionally and physically too, because I think we are talking more about it, but it is good to understand the reality of the situation.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

It was hell on earth, and I don't say that lightly because I think I was such sorry, very much in the dark, as to how much pregnancy would change my body, my understanding of my body image at the time. I always knew that my body looked a certain way and just in terms of allowing to sit in that space where I'm a lot softer, I'm not as muscular, I'm, I guess, more tired than normal and I think once, having had Savannah I had a natural birth with Savannah and I just remember that first time stepping into the gym and how weak I felt and just in comparing myself, I guess, to the other girls in the room and just questioning like, why am I doing this, why am I here, was a real shock and, I think, a real mental challenge. And I say it to anyone as a issue considering, obviously, motherhood whilst they're in the middle of their elite career. It is possible. I've obviously shown that it is, but don't underestimate that that's first time stepping in the gym. It's going to be a real shock to the system.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

But I think, again, without the support from the strength conditioning coach, ricky Messiah, who was really gentle in his approach, we really built a timeline of short, medium and long-term goals and the markers that I would have to hit. I worked together with a pelvic floor Emma Brockwell, the pelvic floor health consultant. So, again, not looking just to rush me back to that sporting environment, but to make sure that when I did return, I'd return in the safest and best way for me as a woman as well as an athlete. So it really was about just taking one day at a time, putting each of the weeks together, putting all the months together, putting each of the weeks together, putting all the months together and then finally, I think it was only probably about a year, a year and a bit after I returned to the court, but I probably say I was. I felt like my true self, as I was before I was pregnant.

Sue Anstiss:

Are you pleased that you came back? Was it the right decision to come back?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Definitely. I'm pleased that I came back because I think I proved to myself more than anything that I can do it. I talked about the mental resilience and toughness that I built over my time in Bath and overseas, and I think this was another challenge that I kind of proved to myself. That you put your mind to something, you can achieve absolutely anything.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I think we just saw Venus Williams the other day just win a tennis match at 45 years old and I thought her interview was right, hit the nail on the head.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

She was so inspiring because you have to commit, you have to tell yourself every single day that you can do it. You have to set the goals and you you can't have any excuses. And I think at the time my biggest inspiration not only was proving to myself I could do it, but my daughter and I wanted her to see that I didn't give up my dreams when I had her, but she really kind of fueled that fire for me to go after it again. So I'm grateful because, having returned, I ended up back in an England dress, getting a call from the Queens and the Firebirds to go to Australia and play in what's considered the best league in the world, again able to take her with me for that cultural experience, and I also was able to get selected for the Commonwealth Games in 2022. So from that, I guess, snap decision as to, okay, I'm going to commit to this. Actually, the opportunity that came from it was tenfold.

Sue Anstiss:

And I know you are so much around motherhood I was thinking is there anything more about that experience that you feel people should know about and talk about? I think it's great that you talked about how tough it is, because sometimes we we paint a picture of it. It's easy to come back in a short time.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I think no one really asked me about okay.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

So the feeding journey during that I think I remember like having to pump before a training session, secure my milk in in a carrier, get to training over a two-hour training session, do what I need to do on the court, come out from the court, see your ice bath but pump again in the car before actually getting home.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

And it's one of those sasas of demand to say, oh, you're breastfeeding your baby, rather than how are you feeding your baby is the question. So I remember just feeling a lot of pressure around that during the time that I did have Savannah. I was fortunate because I found a way with pumping and was able to do it for nearly eight to nine months before I stopped and did combi feeding. But I think it's one of those things that people never ask you what's the practical nature of it in terms of getting to training, organising child care, pumping, looking after your body and your health checks, and it's the nitty-gritty behind just getting to training, doing the training, coming home and the time that's doing that which probably people don't talk about or really understand.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, that's good. I think we you very kindly took part in the abby war documentary and talked to abby about it and I think that was an important part for us on a bump in the road is that we showed her with the breast pumps and putting the milk in the fridge during training, and you know that was the reality of it and I but you're absolutely right Sometimes not we skirt over it, but it's almost the truly practical side of motherhood that isn't always talked about.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Yeah, I think, as you say, suze, as Abby showed, as I've done, as many other mothers have done, it is all possible and it's all about organisation planning, and I think, as an athlete, it's one of those things you've never had to think about this, you, and I think, as an athlete, it's one of those things you've never had to think about this. You just had to focus on yourself. So how you develop the ability to multitask and really be as efficient in your organization as possible. I think, again, it's a life skill that's has allowed me to continue to thrive, even after my life in sport.

Sue Anstiss:

And I have spoken to a number of mothers, both in team sports but also ultra distance runners and other athletes, and how motherhood actually changed their perspective in a positive way and that it took some of the pressure off of just thinking about themselves and the sport and competition. Did you find that that kind of balance came to after motherhood?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

A hundred percent, I think, can you say? I think as an elite athlete, sometimes you have to be really quite selfish in order to achieve the real pinnacle, the echelons or the heights that you want to achieve. I think what motherhood taught me was, in one sense, to be less selfish, because when I came home at the end of the day, savannah didn't care if I won or lost. All she cared about was the unconditional love that I was going to show her. And I think I would sometimes, given the ultimate compasso that I was, if we'd lost the game, I'd be real salty for a couple of days because I knew I could have done better or what more could I have done.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I would have analysed the game to the nth degree If we'd won a game, probably in the same. But when I came home to Savannah at the end of the day and my family and my husband, it was like they just wanted Ebony, they don't really care about the result. They really changed my perspective in that regard. So when I was in that environment it was all about 110% Ebony putting her best foot forward, working relentlessly. But when I was at home, that softer side about how I kind of reprioritized my priorities, my values and around that environment is what changed.

Sue Anstiss:

And we're seeing, as you alluded to, more and more female athletes now returning to professional sport as mothers. But how can netball and other sports more broadly better support those mothers who want to continue in their athletic charisma? And again, I realise that you've become a bit of a spokesperson for this, but talking in different environments about it. But if there were two or three things that you think that sports could be doing better from your experience, what would you highlight?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Yeah, I'm really passionate about this because I think I spoke to Shauna Brown and she was just saying the comparisons in women's rugby and some other sports.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

It is very varied in terms of support that athletes get to considering motherhood during their elite playing careers and what I would love to see is that it was more standardized all women's sports in terms of the package that is provided to them in terms of support.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

So a pelvic health floor consultant should be absolute standard for every single athlete who falls pregnant during their elite career Guide and specialist sport and strength and conditioning to help with prenatal and postnatal support.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I think further research into female athletes in particular whilst they're training how to, I guess, take care of their bodies, and also education around fertility issues or in terms of pregnancy or the options in around that, and the statistics in around the age range of when it's most optimal to fall pregnant and the considerations as to whether you want to take career breaking or to explore motherhood needs to be spoken about more. So I do think what I would love to see, like I said, standardised across all sports more investment into the research in around fertility, motherhood as an elite athlete and what's the best for that athlete during the prenatal and postnatal phase and generally just allow athletes to make the choice rather than fall into a period where they've had a playing career. They might retire at 34 to 36 and then they're considering motherhood and then they understand the challenges. So just more education-based workshops for all female athletes in around this topic at a young from, not in grassroots, but as they're coming through the ranks, so they can make informed choices and it feels we're in a better space.

Sue Anstiss:

Isn, isn't it, I feel, even the last five years? So much more conversations being had and people talking about it. I guess it's the action that we now want to see in place, with policies and the behaviour of those sporting bodies and teams and leagues.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Yeah, hugely so. I think we are in a better place, but there's so much more that could be done. I think we should be screaming loudly about this on all fronts in all clubs, in all sporting organisations, in all national governing bodies. It's a welfare point of view, it's a responsibility that we have to the athletes. It's not something that can be pushed by the waist or side or a box ticking exercise. So it's great to see that the conversation has now been unearthed, but I think there needs to be more real action, as you say, more investment around it, to really kind of push this agenda forward.

Sue Anstiss:

Excellent. You've managed to balance your elite sport career with your legal career too. So does it worry you now looking at some of those young professional players coming through who might not have a plan for a career beyond sport hugely?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

so I talk about it quite a lot with the england netball roses actually, and I think I'm a big advocate for it and, I guess, an example of the fact that, unfortunately, we are still not at the stage where we're getting paid the same as our male counterparts and that's just the reality of where we are. But and we also there's the aspirations for the future that there'll be a more of an equal pay level between the two sexes. However, whilst we are in the face that we are, it's really important that you have a plan b, because you're one move away from a career-ending injury or even deselection, and you shouldn't be left wanting to think okay, who am I outside of this dress or this kit, or on the picture on the court? I think there should be a real emphasis and a push just okay, what are the skills and characteristics and qualities that I've developed within this team environment or within this sporting environment that really can allow me to function in the real world? So I think, yes, there's great that athletes, and female athletes in particular, are passionate about sport, but we also have to allow them to and equip them in those environments to really be able to contribute to society and impact society outside of that jersey, so they just don't have that loss of identity which was so common we so commonly talk about.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

So I know when I've had conversations with some of the younger netballers coming up and saying it's great to be in these environments, but make sure you get your a levels, make sure you get your gcscs.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Have you considered high performance environments at universities where you can still play, still earn your degree? Because actually when you come out of it and you go to an employer, I think the first question I asked got asked was great that you've been in the roses, great that you've been representing your country, but actually how you're going to contribute to our business? So when I asked the girls that how you're going to contribute to, I know, the IT sector, how you're going to contribute to the, the medical, the IT sector, how are you going to contribute to the medical sector? What are you doing at the moment in terms of work experience or developing your skills and qualification outside of the environment? That's really going to equip you later on. They sometimes scratch their heads but it's great to be able to ask those questions because it gets them thinking about being proactive in those spaces right now so that they're not left wanting.

Sue Anstiss:

And are the sports doing enough? Because it's interesting that you say it's almost like pushing the girls, the young women, to think about that. But do you think the sports, not just in netball but across sports are doing enough? Or, as we become more professional, are they too concerned about the athletes on the pitch and performance?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I think it's a really hard one. I don't think the sports are doing enough. But I think it's also a really fine balance because the sports agenda and in terms of sometimes commercial funding, is in terms of performance and results. So it's a balance between why would we be pushing our athletes to consider careers outside of this environment because that's going to distract from their performance and their input inside our high performance sporting environment. But I think hopefully I'm an example. Dr Leila Guscoff is another one from Netball, pamela Cookie is another one who can really prime examples of women who've had careers outside of the sport but have also thrived on the court because of that additional stimulus that they had. So I think it's not something to fear. I think it's more in terms of finding and navigating a way in which we can do both you quick the individual off the court and actually you never know actually it might push in my life their on-court performance or on-field performance to actually thrive.

Sue Anstiss:

And I should say both Pamela and Leila are lovely guests on the Game Changers podcast in the past as well, brilliant, you've seen netball evolve massively across your career, playing in the UK and playing in Australia, but what do you think was the biggest turning point?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

do you think for the sport in terms of where we see it today? I think in the UK in particular. I think us winning the gold in 2018 was a huge turning point for us. I think in terms of the sponsors that came on board Nike, the increased investment from the Lux Fatality it was huge. And I think in terms of the profile, sky and the BBC in particular, really putting money behind the sport to create more visibility for us was absolutely huge.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

So for netball in the uk, I think 2018 was probably the pivotal turning point. Um, the development of the full-time program to allow 24 athletes each year to really train full-time and hone their skills in that netball environment at loughborough university, I think has paid dividends in terms of the consistency of the performances that we now see with the englandoses on the international stage, but overseas as well. And I think the emerging nations like Zimbabwe and South Africa, who are really starting to challenge the top teams Australia, new Zealand, jamaica, england on that international stage, has created a much better international competition and I think as we continue to evolve and network continues to evolve around the netball continues to evolve around the world outside of the Commonwealth, I can only see the sport go from strength to strength.

Sue Anstiss:

It's so important, isn't it? And I was going to just allude quite similar on the rugby story too, isn't it? It's making sure that all nations are developing and thriving and that it becomes competitive, because nobody wants just two or three teams to be winning everything all the time.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Yeah, no, you definitely don't want a monopoly and I think, if you, if you actually watch the netball from zimbabwe and botswana, it's exciting. The style, their interpretation of the game, I think is what every fan wants to see, because it really opens your mind as to, I guess, how the game can be played, the adaptations that and how the game's being viewed. So I still think again, it would be really interesting if there was more investment for those particular teams on the international stage, or if we had a team from America or China, different territories, given we know the prowess in the basketball arena or their dominance at the Olympics. I think it really would transcend the sport and and again allow the competition really to thrive.

Sue Anstiss:

You're now working as a voice of the game in commentary with Sky. So how has stepping into the media changed how you view the game or the athletes playing it too? Do you feel you've got a very different perspective now from the other side? It's a less tiring perspective, should I?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

say In the nicest possible way. I think it's a real privilege to be a pundit with Sky Sports and with the BBC to cover the Netball Super League. I think, to be able to tell the stories and really tell the story from a perspective I've been there, I've done it I understand that feeling, that emotion, but also to witness how, like you say say, the sports evolved and the kind of professional era that we've kind of we've really stepped into, is a real honor and privilege. I think working for Sky and their passion about developing women's sport and creating visibility around it obviously still a long way to go, but I think there's a real privilege for netball in particular when it doesn't necessarily have a really stable male counterpart to kind of support.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

It has been a really good avenue for in which for the sports to travel. So, um, yeah, it's a lot of fun getting to go to the game. I don't really see it as work. I see it as me able to kind of of every weekend go and lean into my passion and what was my hobby and just see how this great game is really transcending the lies and also this year, you'll know, being involved with London Mavericks playing in big arenas just the spectacle of the game, with more spectators in there, more viewership. It's been really, really fascinating to see.

Sue Anstiss:

And what's been your take on Netball Super League 2.0 and the new regulations? You know the new rules and opportunities to score points. How do you feel it's gone as a season as we look back now?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I think the second half of the season really showed where this new Netball Super League is going to go. I think the first half of the season with the super shot whether you love it or hate it, it's a bit like Marmite I love it. I love it. Good, good, good. I think fans are a bit undecided, but I also think teams are really trying to work out how to utilise it as a tactic within the game. However, I think the closer results in the second half of the season really showed why it is a fantastic addition to the normal game.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I thought the tendencies at the games in the visual on the TV nearly every single game, averaging over 3,500 to 5,000 people in the arena games was phenomenal to see actually how people are getting their bums in the seats in the arena to support their team and build their affiliations. And again, I think the viewerships went over because the games were closer towards the end of the season. So I think it was brilliant. Credit and kudos to Claire Nelson. I think she's had to weigh a lot of it on her shoulders in terms of this brand new era, of what it was going to look like, how it was going to play out. I'd love to see love to see netball return to the southwest in the netball super league at some point in time, but great to see the additions of Birmingham Panthers, nottingham Forest and obviously, the newly rebranded London Mavericks really putting their stamp on what will be the competition that will continue to really evolve and thrive in the next couple of years to come.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, it's exciting to see where it goes. I mean, obviously, as I'm also, just as a general fan, really excited to see what happens as teams now announcing their squads for next season.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Best bit about it because you get to gossip. Can you believe she went there? I didn't think she was leaving. I love the conversations and the intrigue that really comes out of it. So just never mind if you're just a normal fan. I think even us within the Swatch are saying oh wow, that's an interesting move. It's great to see.

Sue Anstiss:

And that's the bit, isn't it, that builds the player profile and the following. You know, fans following. That's a bit that will then take us through to the next season, too. What's your vision? Where do you think it might be in five years? Where would you love it to be in five years time, do you think?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I'd love it to be with every game being played in an arena. I would love it that if every game was not only streamed but shown live on one of the mainstream broadcast channels. I'd love to see packed out every game, with over 5 000 people at every single game across the league. I'd love to see the reintroduction of bigger squads so 12 people, so to allow more talent to be able to take to the court.

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

Um, I'd love to see a franchise back in the southwest yes, because it's a region that produced bigger squad so 12 people, so to allow more talent to be able to take the court. I'd love to see a franchise back in the Southwest yes, because it's a region that produced so many England players and has such a history and a legacy. So, as we talked about earlier, I just wouldn't want younger players to be able to miss out because of travel, access to elite netball and a franchise within this region. I'd love to see also more female leaders at the table, so more female leaders who are owning and investing in these clubs and really us taking charge, but also, yeah, building more allies from commercial sponsorship and and then an investment to really propel the sport forward just finally.

Sue Anstiss:

I'm interested, I guess, when you think about to young Ebony, what do you think young Ebony would think now if she saw you and all you've achieved and what you're doing today?

Eboni Osoro-Brown:

I hope young Ebony would just be proud. I think it's one of those things sometimes like I sit here now and I've got my dress on the back of the wall in my office and the news clippings from 2018. And I think it doesn't sometimes feel real. It feels like that was a whole life that I wasn't necessarily involved in. It feels like such a different chapter. But I think young Ebony would be proud that she had a dream and she went after it wholeheartedly, unreservedly, and came out of it the other side, not battered and bruised, but just grateful for the opportunity and the learnings I got from it. So I think I'm at the stage now where I'm really wanting to give back to sport. It doesn't have to be netball, but give back in a way that I can really hope another young Ebony or another individual who's trying to make their name in their own right can continue to thrive in this environment and really reap the rewards in the same way that I have.

Sue Anstiss:

How delightful to talk to Ebony and to relive some of those truly memorable moments in netball. She's having such a powerful impact for athletes across sport, sharing her learnings and her wisdom. If you'd like to hear from other trailblazers in netball, as mentioned on the podcast, my previous guests have included players like Pamela Cookie and Leila Guscoff, along with Serena Guthrie and those women leading the sport like Liz Nicholl, sue Campbell and Jo Adams. There are over 200 episodes of the Game Changers that are all free to listen to on podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. Guests include elite athletes, along with coaches, entrepreneurs, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs all women who are changing the game in sport.

Sue Anstiss:

As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 13,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us. The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you once again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective with the National Lottery Award, and to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such an excellent job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. You can find the Game Changers on all podcast platforms, so please do follow us now to ensure you don't miss out on future episodes. Do come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on LinkedIn and Instagram at Sue Anstis. The Game Changers Fearless women in sport.

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Sue Anstiss

Host
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Sam Walker

Producer