.jpg)
The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss MBE talks to trailblazing women in sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with the toughest challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers with a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Rhona Lloyd: Redefining what it means to be strong
"Missing Olympic selection again broke me, but it reminded me I'm more than a rugby player."
Today on The Game Changers podcast it's our absolute joy to talk to Scottish rugby star Rhona Lloyd, who shares her remarkable journey from a young girl defying stereotypes to becoming one of Scotland’s fastest and most dynamic players.
With 57 caps and 25 tries for her country, Rhona’s story is one of resilience, self-discovery and redefining what it means to be strong. Having returned from four years playing in France, Rhona is about to represent Scotland in the Women's Rugby World Cup, before she joins Sale Sharks Rugby Club to play in Premiership Women's Rugby.
In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, we explore:
-- The heartbreak of missing out on Olympic selection – twice
-- How Rhona has built strength and identity beyond the pitch
-- The real highs and lows of life as a professional female athlete
-- The remarkable bond within the Scottish women’s team
-- Helping girls build body confidence through sport
Rhona speaks with raw honesty about career setbacks and personal trauma faced by the national team, and how those moments have shaped her as both a player and a person.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast with a National Lottery Award.
Sue Anstiss:My guest today is Rhona Lloyd, a Scottish international rugby star known for her blistering pace, try scoring flair and her powerful presence both on and off the pitch. Rhona made her debut for Scotland in 2016 and has scored 25 tries for her country in 57 caps, playing in the Rugby World Cup in 2022 and shining at club level both in the UK and in France. Rhona returns to the UK this season to play once again in the PWR Premiership Women's Rugby Off the field. Rhona's been a co-host of the podcast Women who Sport and is a vocal advocate for body confidence and mental well-being in elite sport, using her platform to inspire young female athletes to value strength, resilience and self-worth. So, Rhona, life's changed quite a bit for you over the past couple of years, so can you start by telling us where you're currently living and where you'll be playing professionally in 2026, 25 and 6?.
Rhona Lloyd:Yes, absolutely. So I'm actually back at my parents' house this summer. I think I've moved out about three times and every time I end up coming back just when they think that they're rid of me. And but no, I have been. I was playing in Bordeaux, so that has been my team for the past couple years. But I'm moving to Sale Sharks next summer. So I think, with the it being a home world cup in England, I think the, the PWR after that world cup, I think it's going to explode and it just seemed like the right time to try and get myself back in there. So, yeah, really looking forward actually to living in Manchester and seeing what sale has to offer.
Sue Anstiss:Excellent. How does it feel to be back there, having been in France Because there's not that many British women that go to play in France it still feels like it's something a little bit rarer.
Rhona Lloyd:Yeah definitely, and I think when I first went over I went over from Loughborough Lightning four years ago I didn't think that there was much difference between the French League and the English League, whereas I think kind of credit to the RFU the English League has just absolutely exploded in the past couple of years and it's such an exciting league now and definitely one that I want to play in. So it was kind of that that motivated the switch back and it felt like the right time for a change, although I did love my four years in Bordeaux. But yeah, I just kind of felt like it's it's the time for a change. And when I spoke to Sail I just got such a good impression and Katie Daly-Nuclea and I used to play with at Loughborough she's their director of rugby there, so yeah, that was a big motivator for the move as well.
Sue Anstiss:I can't believe it's been four years. Like I knew you went, I would probably have said it was two. That seems to have gone really quickly, your four years.
Rhona Lloyd:No, I agree, yeah, I absolutely agree, but I think anybody that has the opportunity to play abroad, in whatever sport, I would say take it with two hands. It's such an amazing experience and I think, even off pitch, being the person that doesn't speak the language, that's not something we get as English speakers a lot and yeah, we're just challenged in so many, in so many ways. So it was amazing, do you?
Sue Anstiss:think it's changed how you will welcome overseas players in the PWR.
Rhona Lloyd:Massively. I think that was I remember my first year there, especially when I couldn't speak the language and like people would invite me out for a coffee and I would be so touched by it, I just to kind of feel included in the team and it really made me reflect, me reflect on that I'm going to be a better teammate in the future for having been through that experience, because it's so hard and I think when you speak English it's probably an experience that we take a bit for granted that everybody speaks your language, and that was kind of what I anticipated going over there and, yeah, it definitely wasn't the case.
Sue Anstiss:But yeah, I think, exactly as you've said, I'll definitely if, yeah, foreign players are coming over to the PWR, definitely try and be a better teammate for them though, and you've talked positively about where the PWR is, as you say that it's kind of really evolved in these last few years, but what were the biggest differences you saw in France in terms of that environment around the female game To be?
Rhona Lloyd:honest, in France the like, the fan base, is amazing. I was in the southwest of France and you're bored to lose derbies. It was absolutely huge. People were mad for rugby there, which it was so exciting to live and breathe.
Rhona Lloyd:But I think what the PWR does so well is that kind of the media side of the game. All the games are streamed now and good quality streams. So then World Rugby are reposting the tries, whereas the French game a lot of the time there's not a stream or video footage. It's one person with a camera, it's not good quality footage. So then World Rugby aren't resharing it. You might have to do some of the best players in the world in that league. So yeah, I think that's definitely somewhere that the PWR is invested and it's really paid off. And in France there was one week we played against we were in front of 13,000, playing away to Clermont, and then the next week we played Lyon away. We were on these back pitches. There was honestly like maybe 12 people there. It's just the inconsistency, whereas I think the PWR now kind of week in, week out, it is a professional setup, which is why I think we all say it's the best league in the world.
Sue Anstiss:And it's interesting, isn't it? I think from the outside we think it's always those massive crowds in France, like at every game, so I think that maybe that's a misperception that we've got too. Do you feel it's really positively impacted your playing? Has it changed your playing style or your mentality, your approach to playing out there?
Rhona Lloyd:Yeah, I think definitely. They play such an exciting brand of rugby, which we see with the French national team as well. They're so attacking, they're so brave in the way that they attack. And, yeah, they don't stop telling me that English rugby is boring. English rugby obviously includes anywhere, anybody, any English-speaking nation. It is really inspiring being there, just the bravery that they play with, and it kind of makes you feel that you can do it too.
Sue Anstiss:You played both 15s and 7s at the highest level. But if we go back to the very beginning, how did you get into rugby? How did it start for you?
Rhona Lloyd:For me it started at Miss School, tycastle High School. So I grew up in Edinburgh and it was one of the Scotland women's players at the time. Sarah Quick, she was a director of rugby in the area and she came and ran a tepster session at my school and I just absolutely loved it and it was from there that she said you know, come along to Murrayfield Wanderers. So yeah, my first team was on the back pitches at Murrayfield. So it's really cool now to see the journey that it's been on.
Rhona Lloyd:And even it's so crazy to think back, because I think playing for Scotland that was always the dream, but being a professional rugby player wasn't, because that didn't exist and it really fell so far off when I first started playing for Scotland that what my life looks like now, that felt like something that was in 20 years' time. It didn't feel like something that I was going to get access to. So, although it's still got a long way to go, I just feel so blessed to have been playing women's sport during this time where I think, just year on year, season on season, in so many sports it's just getting better and better and bigger and, yeah, it's been an amazing journey.
Sue Anstiss:I do often comment on that that we are in this extraordinary period of change. Sometimes you're right in it, amongst it, and you see it. But even in you think about the last five years. But even in you think about the last five years, the last 10 years, just how much that change has happened. How old were you when you were at school? You say you started at school. How old were you then when?
Rhona Lloyd:you started I was 12, 13. I think it was first, second year of school, of high school.
Sue Anstiss:You've talked really openly about sort of teasing and stereotypes and some of your struggles around body image and mental health as a young person growing up, so why has it been important for you to speak out about that?
Rhona Lloyd:For me when I was at school. I was the only girl in my school that played rugby and I went to a school in a challenging part of Edinburgh and definitely being the girl there that played rugby just wasn't easy. And yeah, I remember having a really hard time at school and it was people teasing me for playing rugby. And I feel like when you talk about it now it sounds so ridiculous because I'm so unbelievably proud of playing rugby. But definitely the time it was, it was really difficult.
Rhona Lloyd:When I think now and look back on kind of what my life looks like, there was a time that I was maybe 16 17, I was kind of just involved with Scotland under 20s and I was going to quit playing because I was having a really hard time at school. I definitely wasn't kind of proud to be doing something different and it was a coach at the time actually that had said to me like look, just like, stick at it until uni, like do your first year of uni rugby and see how you feel then. And I just cannot imagine what my life would look like now without rugby. Like all the amazing places, places I've got to go, all my best friends are people I play rugby with. It's really driven my ambition and I hate to think about how many girls miss out on that because of the dropout rate of sport that we see in girls in high school.
Sue Anstiss:So if you think about your body now, it's funny, isn't it? Because I follow you on Instagram and see the stuff that you post what would you say that you love about your body now that perhaps you struggled with as a teenager? Because I think that's really important as well, isn't just? Can we celebrate the?
Rhona Lloyd:the power and the beauty in strong bodies. No, absolutely, and that is I think that's one of the biggest changes to me. That is has just been so crazy, because I remember at school getting my first gym program from yeah, it must have been Scotland under 18s or under 20s and the program that they gave me it was literally like press-ups, sit-ups, it was all body weight stuff, and I didn't do it because I just had this thing of I didn't want to look like a man and that was. I was just obsessed with that like not looking like a man, not looking masculine, but I just associated looking strong with looking masculine at that age and I don't think it was helped by it was a time that Instagram was still very new. It was in magazines, it would always kind of be supermodels that you would see, or the Kardashians or Love Island. It wasn't. We didn't have access to female athletes the way that we do now.
Rhona Lloyd:And, yeah, whereas now, yeah, on Instagram, I'm always posting, yes, clips from the gym or what we're doing in the gym.
Rhona Lloyd:I'm obsessed with it now and I want to be a strength and conditioning coach after rugby, and I think if 16 year old me seen what I was doing now, they would be probably mortified.
Rhona Lloyd:But, yeah, they'd be really proud of how far they've come with that and I think that's really been helped by that rugby community where there is a space for every single body shake and size. And, yeah, at the end of gym there's a bunch of us that all do like gun club together. Which that was kind of the thing that I was most scared of when I was younger was having big arms, whereas acting out that's something that I love and that I'm really proud of. And I think it still can be hard sometimes. If I don't ever go into something where you're wearing a dress, and especially if it's not with other sporty people, I think sometimes you do feel a little bit like you look a bit different. But I do see that as a strength now in terms of what my body can do in the pitch, and it's not just about what it looks like.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, it's so important, isn't it? And I do hope it's changing. We kind of talk about that, celebrating strength, but is that really teenage, girl age, when it's so much about perception and your peers and how you feel and all those things too, isn't it? So I guess the more that we can celebrate that. I mean, you hope with the kind of profile of the Rugby World Cup and events of that kind, it can begin to help shift that. But it is still tough, isn't it, I think, when it's all they see on social media.
Rhona Lloyd:Oh, definitely, and I think when you're that age as well, what somebody says in your class about you, that is the biggest deal in the world. That will kind of school gossip, whereas obviously, as you get older, you think that was so it's so irrelevant. I meant nothing, but yes, as as you said, I'd like to think that there's a shift happening there and you also excelled at basketball and athletics.
Sue Anstiss:I think you were ranked in the top 100 for 60 meters in the UK at one point. So why did you choose rugby over those other sports, especially athletics? Because you've got to feel there was probably a more viable path at the time than, as you said, when you look back at rugby.
Rhona Lloyd:At the time they didn't really feel like there was a professional opportunity yeah, I think I did growing up, yeah, athletics, rugby, basketball, kind of anything that they would let me do. I just love sport and, yeah, that athletics one definitely still haunts me. I think that's from under 16s or something, but it always comes up which I love. But I don't really know if I don't ever remember massively making a choice, like I think I was. I came into athletics really late. I only started when I was maybe 14, and I did.
Rhona Lloyd:I did quite well relatively in Scotland, but I don't think I was ever going to kind of make it there really and rugby it kind of it went from we're training once a week to okay, we're training twice a week and you have to go to the gym two times a week. And then it was, oh, we've got camp most weekends, we've got training with Scotland most weekends. So I guess it was more the demand of rugby made that choice for me. But obviously I did it because I loved it and yeah, it's what all my best friends do and it's really cool with the Scotland women's team. Now A lot of those girls I was playing with at under 18s, under 20s, we all came through together, which is, yeah, that journey's been amazing.
Rhona Lloyd:And that was definitely kind of what what pulled me into the people Tell us about your first camp for Scotland, so what that felt like when, when that was and what that felt like, yeah, that was a very crazy time. So I think I was 18 or 19 at the time and, yeah, had been training with Scotland. Women had done a couple camps before the Six Nations, but at that time like now, we'll be together for three weeks before the six nations. At that time you were together for maybe five days. You didn't have a lot of time together, so it was quite hard to gauge where you were at relative to the squad, whereas now, when you have more time together, you can kind of pick up okay, this is, this is where I am in the pecking order a little bit.
Rhona Lloyd:But yeah, I remember getting an email saying that, yeah, this was the, the team to face England and I was at 11 and I was at a friend's house like I was not anticipating that at all and just, yeah, being being so emotional about it and calling my parents and they definitely weren't expecting either, like, no, I got my my first cap the same day as Lisa Thompson, who's, yeah, one of my best friends and now, and yeah, we were 11 and 12. So it was, yeah, a hugely special day. And I just remember, I remember that the game went so fast. We went in for half time and I remember thinking like I feel like we've just come out here, but I think it was just. It was so overwhelming and that time, yeah, when you're young, you really have no idea about what's coming next or what it means to play England. You just take your opportunities and yeah it. It was so, so special.
Sue Anstiss:And you've touched on how much things have changed since then, like about a decade or so. But what was it like? The setup? Obviously, as you said, you were in camp for less time, but what else was different, would you say, to what you're experiencing today?
Rhona Lloyd:It was. So it was different in every single way. Like it's almost hard to put into words, in every single way, like it's almost hard to put into words we would come together the day before a game. So if we played on Friday night, we would meet on the Thursday. You obviously I'm saying obviously, that's maybe not obviously you didn't get paid at all. There was nothing. And actually I remember a couple seasons in when they brought in our first like match fee. It was like £50 for the game. So I remember I was a student at the time, so actually £50 was class. I remember being absolutely buzzing about that which is so funny because obviously we're always pushing for more and yeah, it's quite humbling actually to think back to that time and think about how happy I was to be getting £50.
Sue Anstiss:I was just going to say. I spoke to Carla Ward last week for this series two on the football and she said exactly the same and she was a student, I think. She was at Sheffield and she got a match fee of 50 quid or whatever and I was like, oh my god, that's proper money as a young student.
Rhona Lloyd:Yeah, no, I was like unreal. Like you played the five matches in a second. You got 250 pounds as a student unreal. No, it's crazy to think back on that time as well. Our coaches weren't full-time yeah, it was just so amateur and there would be people playing. I don't know. You could be playing probably the fifth, sixth level of rugby in England or Scotland for the men and you'd be getting a £50 match week.
Rhona Lloyd:It's really special actually to see how much that journey's changed. I think it's hard now with the new players that come in, the young ones that come in. It's hard now, with the new players that that come in, the young ones that come in. It's hard not to be like you guys don't know, um, but I've got absolutely no doubt that when I was 18, the players that were 10 years older than me were saying you know, these girls don't know how good they've got it, so there is a very long way to go, but we definitely have come a very long way in such a short time and so excited to see in, yeah, in 20 years, what rugby looks like and to be one of the ones saying that they don't know how good they've got it.
Sue Anstiss:And in terms of your playing career, where did that impact? Where you went to university? Is that your kind of ambitions for the future?
Rhona Lloyd:Yeah, I kind of only went to. Nobody in my family had gone to uni before and I very much went to Edinburgh Uni because they'd scouted me for the rugby programme and had an amazing four years there. I did biomedical science and we were lucky enough to win the Bucks final at Twickenham, which that was a huge deal and it really felt like Edinburgh against the world. We were the only Scottish team in that league, so it was such an amazing experience and such a fun thing to do, kind of to have that time playing, playing uni sport, which I'm really thankful for, because a lot of the players that come through now you, you miss the uni pathway just because the game is so much more professional.
Rhona Lloyd:Then from there I went to to Loughborough to do a master's, but again, that decision was very much fueled by I wanted to be in England playing rugby and again, getting a rugby scholarship at Loughborough was an easy way to do that. So it's funny, I think I made all these decisions because that was the best thing to do for rugby and just because I loved rugby was, yeah, now I'm definitely thankful that I've come away from it with a degree in a master's as well, as I'm getting towards the end of my career. I think I've got a couple years left, but yeah, it's nice to know that I've kind of got that back up, because that's another thing that's changing in the game is that girls are going straight into contracts if you're good enough. You're not doing uni alongside it or working alongside it, which was a big problem that we had with Scotland and in my first couple of years girls literally not getting time off work to play games.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, it's mad, but you say it has advantages and disadvantages in terms of career path too, doesn't it? And I think that's when we first met in 2020, when you were at Loughborough. So what were your years like then? Looking from the outside, it always felt like such a strong team culture and a great place to be.
Rhona Lloyd:Oh, definitely, loughborough is just the most inspiring, incredible place to be, even when you're in the gym and, yeah, next year in the rack there's stars from GB athletics, gb rowing, all these different sports. It is, yeah, it's just such an amazing place to to train and and to live your life and it's amazing that all your friends are abiding at walk away and I guess you really take that for granted that everybody says the Loughborough bubble. But it definitely was the Loughborough bubble and it's funny because when I was with Edinburgh, we'd say, all the girls from Loughborough, they're so full of themselves, like, and then when I was there, I was definitely one of those people singing Loughborough walks on water. But, yeah, it is. It is a bit of a cult but it's amazing and I was lucky there. I was doing an internship with British Athletics, so I was studying. I was working for British Athletics, so I was studying. I was working for British Athletics, I was playing rugby. It was, yeah, an amazing setup.
Sue Anstiss:Excellent. Yeah, I like the Loughborough Colt. I'm still in that too, I think Well yeah, we do.
Rhona Lloyd:I think like a double personality, like Edinburgh, that was, yeah, very studious and very serious, and then Loughborough and that just everybody loves a groove.
Sue Anstiss:Your speed's obviously been a huge asset, both for 15s and 7s, but 7s has brought a bit of heartache too. Sadly, you just missed out on selection for the Tokyo Olympics and then, unbelievably, the same happened again for Paris. Can you share a little bit about how it affected you on both occasions? Are you happy to talk about that?
Rhona Lloyd:Yes, definitely. I think it's something that's really important to talk about, that non-selection. But yeah, I think Tokyo Olympic cycle I missed out and yeah, the coach had said to me that my defence wasn't good enough, which I think on reflection it was true and yeah, they basically kind of made it that absolute goal that I wasn't going to let that happen again for Paris and I'd made massive strides in my game in that area and in the lead up to Paris it was under the impression I was in a good place and it was. Yeah, the non-selection just hit me like an absolute boss. I would never have taken selection for granted, but I'd been playing well on the World Series.
Rhona Lloyd:There was definitely a lot of things that seemed to be pointing in the right direction and I think rugby is subjective and that's really difficult, that it comes down a lot of the time to one man's opinion and it wasn't in my favour and I think the Paris, the Paris non-selection it was. It was just hard to come to to terms with and it was hard to understand the reasons why and when my world was like crashing down on me in terms of I really thought that the Olympics was something that was destined for me and even things like, since I was a kid, every time you know you'd have a birthday and you'd blow out the candles on your cake and somebody would say, make a wish, I would always wish to go to the Olympics like that's how deep rooted this dream was and yeah, then it was that realization of I'm not doing another cycle. So it was that realization of that's not happening. And while you're dealing with that, you're in training with the team because you need to be there for injury cover and that was extremely difficult and I think something that's helped me come to terms with it now is actually so Lucy Mulhall, who's the Irish Sevens captain.
Rhona Lloyd:When I didn't get selected, I got so many amazing messages and she sent me a message and sent me it was a poem about how you can be remembered in sport and it was about like how you make your teammates feel like if you always showed up for your team, if you always worked your hardest and and all of those things. And I know that I did and I know that I was, and continue to be a good teammate, and I think I'm now in a place that I'm, I guess, judging myself against that rather than, yeah, a selection for a tournament, because I was selected for so many other tournaments, but when it's not the Olympics, it's that's the one that everybody wants to be there for. So, yeah, that was a little bit fluffy, but I think it's, I guess, separating myself from being more than a rugby player, which has been a massive journey this past 12 months and has been extremely, extremely difficult this season. I left the team early.
Rhona Lloyd:I didn't finish the season with them because I was just in a place early. I didn't finish the season with them because I was just in a place. I didn't feel like mentally I could do that and luckily I was very supported there and and they made it a lot easier. But yeah, I think I've still got a long way to go on that journey, but I definitely, if we'd had this conversation 12 months ago, which we did talk about, it definitely would have been from this perspective, actually, I think it would have.
Rhona Lloyd:It would have been with a lot more curious, but I do feel like I'm getting there yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss:we were saying we did, we were lined up to talk because I well, I thought you were shooing, I thought you were there, we were doing. We were doing it as a lead into Paris conversation, weren't we? Because I, yeah, so sure you were going. That's interesting as well, isn't it that lovely? What was her name? Sorry, the Irish, lucy Mulholl, lucy Mulholl, but sending you that message because I think in those times it's really hard to know, it's a bit like a bereavement, really, isn't? It's hard to know what to say to, but actually the power of people reaching out and sharing, even if it doesn't kind of land with you at the time, but but knowing it, will have an impact and helps that process, yeah, I think that's it, and I think thinking about there's it's.
Rhona Lloyd:I think the Olympics is something that we put on this massive pedestal rightly so, but when you get so close to it, you do see that, like I know that I worked harder than girls that went, but that doesn't matter. I think it's just really kind of being accountable to that. Who you are is more important than, yeah, what tournament you went to and I think that takes a long time to realise went to, and I think that takes a long time to to realize, and I think probably a little bit of onus on myself about the I'd really put kind of my happiness and well-being in a subjected decision. So, yeah, a bit of reflection on my part about, okay, I'm, who am I outside rugby, and doing a little bit of soul searching on that journey oh, it's so powerful, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss:I remember talking about this with Tanni Grey-Thompson last year and I was reflecting on all the social media that we were seeing as athletes post about their celebrating their selection for Olympics or Paralympics. And it was because of you and that we'd had that kind of conversation through WhatsApp or email at the time that I'd ever really thought about what a hard time it was, and Tanni confirmed that those few weeks are so difficult as teams are announced and inevitably so many athletes miss out on selection, but we almost don't think of that as the public because we're just seeing all the positive sides. Do you think that Team GB or Paralympics GB or the sports could do more to support athletes at that time?
Rhona Lloyd:It's hard. I do think the athletes that do get selected. It's incredible and as they should post about it everywhere and have their moment. I think, as an athlete that was on the other side, I muted everybody that was anywhere near the Olympic Games, even if people weren't going as a spectator. As soon as I saw that somebody was in Paris for an Instagram, I was like right bye. I muted them that if that came around to bite me, because I muted yeah, muted all my teammates and obviously was. I was still mentioning them on whatsapp, like I was fully in support of them, but I didn't need to see every cool thing that they were doing in Paris and they obviously understood that. But then I was catching up with one of them on the phone a couple weeks ago and she was telling them about her holiday and I was like, oh, I didn't know you were there. And she was like, have you not seen anything that I've posted on Instagram? And I was like, oh god, she's still muted. I forgot to unmute her. I was like a pretty good friend, but yeah, I think it's to be honest. Can team GB do more? I'm not sure. Like they have to celebrate the powers that be. I probably do think that. So I do from a personal perspective.
Rhona Lloyd:It was really hard going into training after, but it was necessary because of in case it was an injury, that I had to be ready. But we and GB were playing against. They were playing against Ireland and Australia in their pool stages and girls that hadn't been selected had been given. We've got like yellow shirts with a target on them for when we were being Australia, and then there was like green shirts for when we're being Ireland, like there was things like that that I think added a sting to it.
Rhona Lloyd:That was necessary and yeah, we fed back and I think that'll be well. It won't happen again. So, yeah, I think it's more probably individual programs just making, making that as best it can be. And even when you're in those trade-ins after selection, there's cases with you the spooks arriving every day that aren't for you there, for us that arrive every day that are for you leggings, like it's. There is just so many things that add to the sting. While you're trying to be a good teammate, while your your kind of dreams are crashing down, you're trying not to cry in front of everybody, like it's. It's very difficult actually.
Sue Anstiss:I went to Canada for a month during the Olympics and being on a different time zone, I think was was huge yeah, yeah and I think, yeah, I remember talking to Mohan about the similar piece for the World Cup and I think she similarly left the country. Uh, I've had a couple of a few conversations with athletes that I'm thinking again of. Yeah, just go to a. Go to a different continent or different time zone, I think is the key. Yeah, and where do things stand with you with sevens now? Is that chapter completely closed for you?
Rhona Lloyd:yes, and I think I will play sevens again, but not don't think I'll play for GB again. The yeah, the sevens program's in quite a delicate position at the moment. They've lost their funding. So yeah, I'm saying I won't play. I don't actually know the opportunity will be to play there. I know that that programme is they're fighting a lot at the moment to keep it alive. But yeah, I do love playing sevens. I've always loved playing sevens. So for that I think I'd love to go and play abroad, in Japan or Hong Kong or something like that, but that it definitely feels a couple of years down the line. So books not Book's, not completely shut on sevens, but yeah, definitely on serious sevens and serious sevens like that.
Sue Anstiss:And we alluded earlier to the huge progress we've seen with the Scottish women's team and professionalism and the introduction of those contracts. So can you share what impact it's had for you personally in your day-to-day life as an athlete?
Rhona Lloyd:the professional contract- yeah, well, I think it's been everything really Like I'm now a professional athlete and that's that's all that I do, which is honestly so mind-blowing. When I was younger I used to. I had a lot of injuries. I had, yeah, like two shoulder operations in two seasons and I just kind of felt like I was always injured and actually touch wood. But since going professional I've I've not found that and I think it's just having that time to recover and it's not actually that we train more. We do train a little bit more. The difference is that you're not going to train and after working an eight-hour shift somewhere, it's you're just doing your training that day. So it really is the time for recovery. That's. That's made all the difference.
Rhona Lloyd:And yeah, when I look back at especially when I was at Loughborough, there was a while I was working this job I was cleaning the tennis courts at Loughborough, started 5am, finish at 2pm. I'd go straight to the gym. Our gym session started at 2pm. It'd be the gym two till four. Then I'd go home, get some dinner, come back in and we'd be training from, yeah, maybe like six till nine pm and we'd do that back to back for days and we'd never do that now I don't know how I did. I guess that is the difference and that is what life once looked like, and now it looks like, yeah, getting enough sleep, eating right, being able to to just really focus on on rugby and analysis and recovering.
Sue Anstiss:That's so interesting, isn't it? That it is. You're right, it is sleep and rest and recovery isn't necessarily the the time to lift more weights or run more or all those things. It's the whole package't it, that keeps you as a healthy, performing athlete. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the Scottish squad, because from the outside it looks like this fabulous, close-knit group and I've always thought I think I mentioned it sometime. I was interviewed by someone recently about what squad would you want to be in, and if I had any choice, I think I'd want to be in the Scottish squad. That's the right answer. Don't tell the red roses that, but I think I want to be because I just want to be in that group. I want to be with all those amazing. So is the bond as strong as it looks like it is from the outside?
Rhona Lloyd:no, absolutely I think that is yeah, it's. We're so, so lucky. I can't, really can't get over how lucky I am to live this life but actually to get to do it with my, my absolute best friends, and I think that's a consequence of a lot of us came through the pathway together and also a consequence of we've we've been through some really difficult things as as a squad. Four years ago, um, we, we lost a teammate, siobhan Cathigan, and yeah, we, we went through that as a squad. It happened just after a tour that we'd been on. So there's yeah. And then Emma Wasso obviously been unwell last year. She's on the mend big time now and is hopefully going to be back in the Scotland squad soon. But we always talk about us being trauma bonded, but sometimes I think we're actually a little bit trauma bonded, but no, there's a lot of amazing girls in the squad and, yeah, we're all so proud to represent Scotland and get to be together. So, yeah, I feel so lucky.
Sue Anstiss:That's lovely to hear. I was going to ask you about both of those issues and challenges and and the impact it's had for you, both as players on pitch but also off the pitch, and as individuals too yeah, no, it has been massively challenging, I think, especially like this this past season with Emma.
Rhona Lloyd:Yeah, I'm one of her best, she's one of my best friends and it was very hard to focus on rugby when I think when a friend gets ill in the way that Emma did, emma had a tumour and it has been removed now and she's making a full recovery. For anybody that doesn't know her story, but when things like that happen, you really realise that there's more to life than rugby. I think the game just feels so insignificant and I found it really hard actually to perform during that time because it felt a little bit meaningless compared to what was going on with my friends. So, yeah, it's been challenging and I think it can be challenging to perform as an athlete.
Rhona Lloyd:We always put pressure on ourselves to be the best every single week, and definitely this past we always put pressure on ourselves to kind of be the best every single week and definitely this past season. I think I've had to accept that actually you can't be at the peak of your performance all the time, that you're going to have dips if that's due to injury, to physical things, to, yeah, your mental health and things happening off pitch. But I guess, riding that wave and yeah, fortunately Emma's, yeah, we'll hopefully see her in a Scotland squad very soon, um, I've got absolutely no doubt. So that'll really feel like a full journey moment once when she's back out with us.
Sue Anstiss:And in terms of WXV so a relatively new global tournament and Scotland won the second tier of the competition in 2023. So how has that shaped your confidence as a team?
Rhona Lloyd:so we've talked about that lovely bonded, united group, but in terms of playing as a team and success, so that was huge and I think, as I said, that the group's really united and there's a lot of us that were capped within the same period around the season that I was and that we've all come through together. And yeah, I played seven games for Scotland before I won a game. We we won our first Six Nations game in seven years. During my second season, we qualified for our first World Cup in 12 years.
Rhona Lloyd:For the last World Cup, we really did go through a lot of losses and I think to win that WXE tournament, it was the first silverware that Scotland had won in. I think it was 22 years since Scotland had won anything. It really felt kind of like, okay, we've, scotland women, we're a different team. Now we've really moved in a different direction and I think people talk about a lot in international sport like leaving the shirt in a better place and I think winning that WXV tournament. It really felt like okay, we've, we've done that, we've really made strides in the right direction and yeah, it was.
Rhona Lloyd:It was incredible, like that tournament in South Africa, it was one of the best times of my life. I think we had an amazing time off pitch. We performed on the pitch and yeah, tours. You always say the best tours are the one that you were successful on that. That was an amazing time and, yeah, we had our when we were out there. Our last game was on the Friday and we didn't have flights home till the Monday, so it was a very good last weekend as well.
Sue Anstiss:Proper bonding there yes, Along with your rugby and academics, you've also got quite a creative musical side. You played bagpipes, ukulele and the guitar as well, I believe. So how important is it for you to have those interests outside of rugby.
Rhona Lloyd:Yeah, I think so important the ukulele we always take away on tour and we will write songs or or sing songs on the bus and stuff. It's yeah, it's just a nice way to bring people together. I think, through through a bit of music and, yeah, the bagpipes, the I'm I think I'm just so proud to be Scottish, basically, but I thought, well, I have to learn them. So, yeah, I'm very much on the I'm, absolutely cannot play the bagpipes yet we're very, very much on the journey we're getting there. I think I probably need some lessons. I've been trying to teach myself but I've hit a bit of a wall. So if there's anybody bagpipers listening that might be able to help me out, definitely give me a message.
Sue Anstiss:There must be. Surely there has to be, doesn't there? Bagpipe tutors.
Rhona Lloyd:Yeah, looking last season when I was struggling a bit since the Olympics election, I really reflected on I need to have other things going on in my life and actually challenging yourself in different ways, learning an instrument. It's a good way to do that and you've been walking as well.
Sue Anstiss:You've been out, haven't you? Yeah, I looked at you then you frowned no, I have.
Rhona Lloyd:I went on um, it was basically went on a pilgrimage, but the Camino de Santiago, if anybody's heard of it, and yeah, I did this like two week walking holiday. I get through through rural France. It was. It was absolutely amazing. Yeah, there's there's like a TikTok trend. That's like your unemployed friend on a Tuesday and I honestly think that is me sometimes when I talk about my life walking through rural France. But no, basically I had a couple weeks off between seasons and I wanted to do this for ages and kind of always thought I'll do it after rugby, but I thought kind of why not do a little bit of it now? And so the walking total is about 10 weeks. I only did two weeks, obviously didn't have much more time than that, but it was honestly so amazing and inspiring to be.
Rhona Lloyd:I was in a situation. I did it on my own, so wasn't in loads of new people. I felt so disconnected from rugby but really in like the nicest way possible, people there would say, oh, like you do sport, what do you do? I would say I play rugby and then that would be it. There would be no more about kind of what that looks like, even though outside rugby. That's. It's my absolute life. Yeah, I think that was a really big step in kind of that processing of not going to the Olympics. Actually, I think just having two weeks to be disconnected from rugby to think about kind of what I want my life to look like and who I want to be, yeah it was amazing. I really recommend that anybody does it Lovely.
Sue Anstiss:It's on my bucket list too at some point. It was amazing, and you and I first met through the Women's Sport Trust Unlocked programme back in 2020. It does feel like a while ago, and you were co-hosting the Brilliant Women who Sport podcast with Sarah Bonner, so are you still involved with that now? Is podcasting or broadcasting something you'd like to do more of in the future?
Rhona Lloyd:Yes, definitely We've taken a little break from the podcast, just in terms of our our schedules with rugby. We're making a little bit difficult, but we're actually we're hosting our first live event at the end of summer oh, brilliant, before we go away, which I'm yeah, I'm definitely gonna chew your ear off about, certainly to this but, yeah, we're. We're both still so, so passionate about the podcast. It's just trying to find the right time has proved a little bit difficult, but yeah, I think just invest in more time and things outside rugby and I, when I was doing the podcast I don't know if you feel the same, but I would always feel like at the end of a conversation, I would feel so inspired or that I was thinking about something differently. And yeah, you can really just learn so much from different people's journeys and I just love that about it it's the ultimate privilege, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss:I was reflecting on it this weekend with somebody, but it is the um and I guess you can listen to podcasts and I do listen to a lot of podcasts but there's something about preparing the questions, researching the person and then being in the con. It's like what a joy to be able to just ask somebody anything you want to ask about and, exactly as you say, I come away.
Rhona Lloyd:I'm always just so affected and impacted by the conversations that we have yeah, no, I absolutely felt the same, but it's, we definitely did it because we were like, well, we want to share these journeys of women in sport, but then we would just leave every conversation being like god, that was for us, that was amazing, which was really cool and obviously we've got the rugby world cup this month and the first lions tour on the horizon in 2027.
Sue Anstiss:You're playing future, still full of opportunity, and you said you hope to play for a few more years. But if you could look back now and pick a moment or a game that really stands out for you as the most memorable, what would that be?
Rhona Lloyd:I think one tournament that really sticks in my head was we did Toulouse Sevens with Scotland and at that time Scotland weren't in the World Series, so we were an invitational team and we had our first training session on the Tuesday and the tournament was the Friday, saturday, sunday and it was over 12 teams and historically the invitational team always comes 12.
Rhona Lloyd:But we came 9th that tournament and we didn't have much time together but we did have 12 people that were we were best friends off it. We worked so hard for each other and we just backed each other up and we had this amazing culture and I really think that's what gave us success in that tournament like we had no right to win one game there, never mind to. We must have won two games to finish ninth. And I think I'm so passionate about team culture and how important that is, and I think that tournament just really epitomized that and we, we beat England, we beat South Africa to to finish ninth and yeah, it was just such, an such an amazing memory. And I think there's also, when there's there's no pressure on your back, when everybody's expecting you to come 12, I think then you can just play with such freedom and I think it's that probably the key to sport is figuring out how to feel like that, even when there is pressure on your back, which I've not quite cracked yet.
Sue Anstiss:So I love that. I love that that's your. That's so memorable for you that I, if I'd have picked one for you, it wouldn't have been that. So that's kind of so nice that that does still resonate and have so much impact yeah, no, it was.
Rhona Lloyd:That was such an amazing time and it was actually it was the end of that summer that Scotland Sevens was. It was cut because it became a GD program, which was a massive step in the right direction. But when I look back at that summer it's like we did not know, kind of how special that time would have been.
Sue Anstiss:It's only now looking back but we can say that because the program doesn't exist anymore and just finally, and we have alluded to this a little bit earlier on but what does success look like for you today, I wonder? Can I have, and how it's changed since we first met five years ago?
Rhona Lloyd:yeah, I think success for me now is is definitely enjoying what I do. I think that's a big focus that I have right now and yeah, it's been a massive journey to get to that point. I think this past season where I was, I was really not enjoying rugby, like really not enjoying playing, not looking forward to games, and that was the first time that I ever felt like I was playing because somebody was paying me to play, not because I loved playing and not because I was choosing to play. And yeah, I think I'm definitely getting that love for the game back and it's been a big challenge to get there. But I think now, going into the next couple of seasons, my goal is to enjoy it and definitely when I am enjoying rugby, that's when I'm playing my best.
Rhona Lloyd:So I guess I'm focusing a lot more on me as a person rather than me as a player right now. And that's definitely been a fallout of not getting selected to the olympics and kind of having to re-evaluate what success meant for me, because success for me was always going to be going to the olympic games. So not doing that like have I been unsuccessful, yes, in that journey, but it doesn't mean that I need to lose my sense of self, which I definitely did for a couple months. So, yeah, right now it's really cliched, but just enjoying what I do is what success looks like and yeah, I think if I focus on that, then the performance looks after itself.
Sue Anstiss:It was so lovely to finally talk to Rona for the podcast after we've been discussing it for such a long time. If you'd like to hear from other trailblazers in rugby, previous guests on the Game Changers have included the likes of Sue Day, mo Hunt, maggie Alfonsi, jodie Owensley, lisa O'Keefe, shauna Brown, emma Mitchell, sarah Hunter and male ally Hugo Monnier. There are over 200 episodes of the Game Changers that are free to listen to on all podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. Along with elite athletes, guests include coaches, entrepreneurs, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs all women who are changing the game in sport Changing the Game in Sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, that's also where you can find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, an inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 13,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us.
Sue Anstiss:The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you once again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective with a National Lottery Award, and also thanks to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such an excellent job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. You can find the Game Changers podcast on all the regular platforms, so please do follow us now to ensure you don't miss out on future episodes. Do come and say hello on social media, but you'll find me on LinkedIn and Instagram at Sue Anstis, the Game Changers fearless women in sport.
