The Game Changers

Mel Marshall: From Broken Dreams to Building Legends

• Sue Anstiss • Season 19 • Episode 7

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"Great athletes aren’t just terrified of losing – they’re traumatised by it. That’s what drives them."

In this powerful and inspiring episode, Sue Anstiss is joined by one of the most influential figures in British sport, Mel Marshall. 

A former Olympian turned world-renowned coach, Mel is best known for guiding Adam Peaty to Olympic gold and multiple world records – but her story is so much more than medals and podiums.

From her early days as a fiercely competitive swimmer to her current role leading an elite performance hub in Australia, Mel shares the highs, the heartbreaks and the lessons learned along the way. She speaks openly about the pressure of elite sport, the emotional cost of coaching and the values that have shaped her remarkable career.

Mel reflects on the extraordinary partnership with Adam Peaty, the importance of empathy in high performance and why we must do more to support and spotlight female coaches. 

She also reveals what’s next in her journey – and why she believes her best days are still to come.

This is a powerful conversation about resilience, reinvention and the people who quietly shape greatness from the sidelines.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Sue Anstiss:

Hello and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys? As we explore key issues around equality in sport and beyond, we start, as always, with a big thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast through a national lottery award. Today, I'm talking to someone who has made a huge impact on British sport, both in and out of the pool Mel Marshall.

Sue Anstiss:

Mel's a former Olympic swimmer who's gone on to become one of Britain's most respected coaches. She's best known for coaching Adam Peaty to Olympic gold and multiple world records, but her influence extends far beyond just one athlete. Through her work as lead coach at Aquatics GB, mel helped shape the next generation of British swimmers, focusing on both their performance and personal development. As one of the most respected figures in high performance sport, mel's coaching philosophy blends innovation, resilience and an unwavering commitment to excellence. Her journey from competing at the highest level to shaping the next generation of champions is simply inspiring. Mel was named British Swim Coach of the Year three times in a row. International Swim Coach of the Year in 2014 and in 2021, was awarded an MBE in the Queen's Birthday Honours. So, Mel, can I start with where you are now? Because last year, after the Paris Olympics, you left your role at Aquatics GB as lead coach there to head to Australia. So what led to that decision?

Mel Marshall:

after three decades in British sport, I think, what led to that decision. There's a series of events and a series of things, but I think it was that thing that you said there three decades in one place. I think there comes a time in everybody's life that you have to jump into new deep water and challenge yourself and push yourself. And you know, an opportunity came up here after Tokyo which I didn't take and the opportunity kept presenting itself and ultimately I thought it was the right time. I thought it was the right opportunity and I was 43 and I wanted to just have a bit of sunshine and a little bit of a different kind of approach for a couple of years. So that's the main reasons really.

Sue Anstiss:

And you're on the Gold Coast, so hopefully you will get that sunshine. But what is the new role there and how does life compare to being in Loughborough?

Mel Marshall:

Well, it's actually very similar to. It's a posh skeg nest, that's how I would say. So I feel like I'm a little bit home, but in terms of the role, it's actually a very similar role. So I was the lead high performance coach for GB Aquatics in Loughborough Performance Centre and the role here is very similar. So I'm head of one of the Australian hubs. It's underpinned by Griffith University one of the Australian hubs. It's underpinned by Griffith University and ultimately it's working with a high performance team, sports scientists and, ultimately, great athletes. And so you know, there's a lot of similarities to the role that I did. There's some things I'm really comfortable with and then there's new things that I'm learning and so, yeah, it kind of sits in the same sort of realm as that, but different group of humans and different group of athletes. Really.

Sue Anstiss:

And, as you say, you've not been there that long. But have you seen any significant differences in this sort of set up and approach to elite swimming in Australia versus the GB?

Mel Marshall:

Yeah, there are some significant differences. Actually, you know, if both organizations had a chat, there'd be massive learning across both. There's cultural differences here. What's quite evident here is that, in terms of from a young person perspective, you know, they're much more outdoorsy While they are connected to their phones. They're not living through their phones. I think they're a bit tougher in terms of just athletes. I just think that's just because they're outdoor lifestyle and they're just quite robust in that sense.

Mel Marshall:

And I guess the system's quite similar in terms of you know what was? Uksi supports high performance sport, qas supports performance sport. So there's some similarities in that. The one thing I will say that is very, very different here is that the coach is much more empowered yeah, massively so in terms of decisions, making decisions, and there's a lot more of a fluid transaction across athletes and people move from programs to programs because there's a bit more talent, just there's a bit more depth. It doesn't mean to say, in terms of where I've come from, there wasn't quality, there was absolute quality, but just there's a bit more of an abundance of it here.

Sue Anstiss:

And are you enjoying, then, that additional opportunity to craft your own kind of team and the work that you're doing there? Is that slightly different?

Mel Marshall:

Yeah, it is, and before you would be in a system but you wouldn't be making decisions on staff or who's or where's or how's and all that kind of stuff. And so, whereas here, very much, I was very much involved in the process of, you know, picking my team and making sure that you know the boardroom that I have in front of me in terms of my people is is my people. So that's been, that was a really important part of the move for me and ultimately, yeah, that was, that was a, that was a big part of the move.

Sue Anstiss:

Excellent, and you're obviously an incredible athlete yourself. So, taking yourself back, what did draw you to swimming in the first place? And, I guess, what kept you hooked in a sport that can be so brutal in terms of the training hours in the pool and so on?

Mel Marshall:

Yeah, I mean it's quite a private story as to why I came into swimming, but I think one of the things that just I loved all sports and I had a very competitive dad who basically we just competed at everything. So that was born in me and I had a very inspirational mum that basically told me and taught me, the big lesson in life is if you're going to do something, you do it to the very best of your ability. And if you've got talent, you should see that talent through. So they were the kind of things that were in my dna and they continue to be in my dna and that's kind of how I found myself into sport really, and I've got to say like, um, you know, I'm, I'm clever enough academically and in terms of you see things now in terms of sport and its role in society, and it seems to me like it's playing less and less of a role in the community and less and less of a role in school.

Mel Marshall:

And it seems to me like it's playing less and less of a role in the community and less and less of a role in school and education. And I just look and I'm just like I would not be anything that I've been, if I didn't have that vehicle of sport, because I was academic but I didn't thrive academically and I just had that outlet, physically and emotionally, where I could express myself. And I just think that, from a point of view of what sport is to people and in a world that is becoming more and more unhealthy, we need to get so much sport into primary schools. We need to get kids loving being active and I think that 50% of the curriculum should be physical, because at that age they should build a relationship with physical activity so that it's ingrained and imprinted, so that they live through it. You know you get, you know do it too late and it's too late. But so, yeah, that's just a little bit of a.

Sue Anstiss:

Is it very different what you're seeing in australia? Is that different in terms of attitudes?

Mel Marshall:

yeah, yeah, totally like kids are outdoors. I saw a brilliant thing the other day right five lads on a bike, fishing rods in their backpacks, and they were just biking just going to go fishing. And kids are out on the beach, they're surfing, they're swimming, they're biking everywhere. And so here, definitely they, just they just live physical activity, much, much, just just, it's evident, it's everywhere um, I mentioned earlier, didn didn't I, how I guess tough that swim training is and can be.

Sue Anstiss:

I was a swimmer myself not to any level that you're coaching or doing, but I did swim in the pool in those early mornings and similarly I've sat poolside with my own kids as well as a parent. You're brave, I don't know which is harder, but how did you kind of maintain that approach as a younger swimmer, so that staying focused and motivated? We do hear about athletes, don't we, sometimes losing their focus as teenagers. Kate Richardson-Morsh actually was a guest on one of the first series of the game changers and talked about, as a teenager, kind of losing her way and and needing a wake-up call almost to get her back into the sport again. Was there ever a moment for you, around teenage years perhaps, where you weren't as motivated?

Mel Marshall:

yeah, completely. I mean, if you look at any athlete or any athlete's story, it's always like that, it's never a straight line. Um, and effectively when I was about 17 or 18, you know I'd been really committed to my sport for a long time. I'd kind of qualified for the world championships as a 15 year old and then it all went to my head a little bit, to be honest, and I got a little bit unfocused and kind of sort of tried to wing it and then I, you know, narrowly missed the Olympics in Sydney. They took five, for really I think I came sixth by something like eight, one hundredths.

Mel Marshall:

You know, what I'd been doing during that time was I'd been playing a lot of soccer football, been playing a lot of football. I discovered going out and the football team that I was playing with at the time they were kind of like I wouldn't say it was girls' pub football, but it was kind of like it was just social and I'd just discovered a new life and I was still swimming, but I wasn't really swimming. And then I went to Loughborough actually with one of the girls that I'd played football with and she was studying there and we'd her up all that kind of stuff in terms of you know, she was still playing for the team. We picked her up on the way. Anyway, I kind of just went for a visit from the swim program and I was just like if I want to do it, I have to move to here.

Mel Marshall:

So, effectively, I packed up my bags and moved that term. But there was like a period from kind of 17 to 18 and just learned to drive and you know, life felt a lot easier and a lot more fun than 7,000 metres in the pool. But it was a wake-up call of missing Sydney Olympics and it was like you know, my mum's voice in the back of my head in terms of if you're going to do something, you should do it properly. So yeah, I just went to a better environment and it was much more suited to me to kind of to move my career on.

Sue Anstiss:

So were you in the swim program? Were you studying at Loughborough and in the swim program? That was a kind of move.

Mel Marshall:

So that was that I was actually. I was actually doing a BTEC at my school and I had one more year to do, but I transferred across to the Loughborough College and they were awesome. They were so accommodating for my needs and then I just continued down that route in terms of education at Loughborough and they were flexible learning and, you know, I got my degree at the end of it took me eight years but it was complementary of my swimming and ultimately that that program allowed me to, you know, compete in high performance sport and get an education alongside it, which was really, really important and for my next stage in my career and my life.

Sue Anstiss:

And you said that sort of disappointment around Sydney heading into the Athens Olympics. You kind of got your head down, amazing, went in. You were ranked number one in the world, I think, as you were going in. But you've described the experience as going in the fastest and coming out with a broken heart. I'm not sure how often that's quoted back to you, but what, yeah, sorry, I'm saying that slightly ironically. I'm not sure how often that's quoted back to you. But what, yeah, sorry, I'm saying that slightly ironically. I'm sure it is sorry, but what happened there? What was that experience?

Mel Marshall:

I'm over it, by the way, so we can talk.

Sue Anstiss:

Sorry, just dig it in again yeah, no, no, it's all good.

Mel Marshall:

I mean, there's a whole series of things that led to that result and a lot of those things I'm really thankful for because they've really they give it. You know, they opened up my skill set as a coach, really in terms of certainly a people coach, and the thing is a series of things. You know, I was a first time Olympian. There was a large amount of pressure. I actually did my dissertation on the relationship between organizational stress and burnout and I actually felt I don't want to be one of those kind of whingy people at the post, because I think everybody's always just trying their best, but there was certainly some pressures and stresses that were laid down upon athletes at that time because pretty much the results were across the board, people were really high ranked, but it didn't come off. So I think there was some conditions that could have been more facilitative of that. I was a first-time Olympian. I was someone that probably fought hard to get where I got to. But did I believe in myself deep down? Maybe not, and I think when you get to that stage you really need to believe in yourself and some things were just timing and fate.

Mel Marshall:

I talked to my old coach now and it was interesting because we were both at a conference together. We're really close now Not close, but we've got a really good relationship now and he basically the title of his talk was excuse, I'm not going to swear, but my biggest 10 fuck ups in coaching and I was number one. But what was great about that moment because I don't think he'd apologized at the time, but that was almost his way of saying it wasn't just you, it was, it was, it was all of it and it was no one's fault. And I'm, you know, we're, we're kind of like we've moved on now massively, but I'm sorry and so, yeah, it was quite a poignant moment in life, but yeah.

Sue Anstiss:

So there out came 16th and and how has that affected and impacted and shaped the way that you coach today in terms of that pressure down you?

Mel Marshall:

you talked, that you experienced then well, there's a couple of things for me around that time. Just that, the experience during the and the before and the experience after, which was probably the most harrowing part of it all. But from that moment I vowed, if I was going to be a coach on athletes' darkest days, I would never leave them. I would find a way I'd bring some lights to the, because I actually wrote a journal through that time which is not like me and I put in the journal entry and I put it. I felt like I was in a dark room. I didn't know how to turn the lights on and no one was going to turn the lights on for me. It's like when you read it back. When I read it back, because when I did my dissertation I used a lot of journal entries and I was just like that sort of moment made me, I guess, a guardian of what I wanted to be as a coach for athletes.

Mel Marshall:

Next, and so effectively, I'll talk about the Adam situation. You know, what am I proud of is silver? Of course I am, and they were my hardest years of coaching with him. But my vow to I'm never going to leave an athlete on their darkest day. You know, we had that kind of like bit of a mental breakdown in that space. I stuck true to my word on that, no matter how difficult it was to me. So that to me was a real success and I was really proud of my values and really proud of my integrity to stand withstand what I did. Withstand because I think some people still walked out, but I didn't.

Sue Anstiss:

You retired from swimming after the Beijing Olympics in 2008 and I know many athletes struggle to find that next transition into a career after retirement, but you seem to go straight into coaching. You took that love of sport. Why do you think that was for you? Had you always known you wanted to coach as a younger athlete?

Mel Marshall:

Well, interestingly, yes and no. So I always wanted to be a PE teacher. So I'd kind of pursued everything to be a PE teacher. You know I'd done my CSLA and HSLA and you know, done all the courses to be a teacher.

Mel Marshall:

At the end of my career, really, and then towards like when I was an athlete, you used to get sent to these places where you were the superstar athlete and I remember getting sent to Pembrokeshire and there was it was a four-lane pool and 90. And this would be a regular thing where you just get sent somewhere and you'd have to entertain 90 children for two and a half hours. And I started to think I'm going to need something in my back pocket here so that I can coach them, give them an experience, all that kind of stuff. And that's sort of where the blend of me being a PE teacher, wanting to be a PE teacher and then the coaching came in and I'd kind of kind of mastered this thing where you can just turn up, coach 90 people and then disappear. And anyway, straight after the Olympics I was on holiday in the Maldives thanks UK sport and um and effectively I was just applying for coaching jobs because I had I had like my dissertation left to write and one module left for university. So I needed a job to kind of support and I applied for two coaching jobs, one that wouldn't give me an interview and then one that was the small club of City of Derby, and ultimately they learned.

Mel Marshall:

I'll be forever thankful because they they sort of took a chance on me and I took a chance on them and from the moment I started I was in love with it.

Mel Marshall:

I was addicted to it from the start. So I was really lucky in that sense and I actually used to get more of a buzz from coaching than I ever did from swimming. And the beauty of that program was because it was we started here. We won quite a lot of stuff and so you got this real kind of buzz, like when we won the Diddy League, the under 12s, and then when we got the arena league final, it was all like and the club club had never been there for a long time. So it was just an amazing club to be part of and we took it from 12 regional qualifiers to adam winning the olympics, lewis white winning a paralympic bronze medal and a whole host of international. So it was. It was quite a rags to riches story and it was um a great eight years that I had there do you think we do enough to encourage athletes to think about coaching post their sport?

Sue Anstiss:

because is it? It's interesting you said when you said about that getting the qualifications. I know when I spoke to Jenny Meadows she talked about as an athlete rocking up to events and feeling she needed to get her level one, level two, level three so she could talk confidently when she was at events and so on, and then that kind of led her into coaching. But why do you think we don't do more of that as a entity, almost to encourage all athletes to be thinking about coaching?

Mel Marshall:

Yeah, I think it is a real massive vehicle. And I remember, and I'm going to tell you a story. So I'd just spent 20 years in sport, I'd just spent at the front line as an athlete, and I went to a coach's conference and this particular person that sat above me I was trying to get some kind of funding and understanding about how to access a level three. No, so I was trying to get some access, to access some volunteers to come into the program. And this particular person, who I knew pretty well, said to me he goes are you a level three? And I went oh, not, yet I'm just going through the process. He goes well, I'm not going to talk to you until you've got a level three. And you know what was really good about that was I thought right, I'm going to have my level three and in four years time you're going to ask me to speak at this conference. And they did.

Mel Marshall:

And it's so disappointing that you know that kind of behavior is around from people that sit above.

Mel Marshall:

And I always used to say and I actually sat in, it was actually paul manning from cycling and we were in one of those cohorts, it was the elite coach cohort with um uk sport and he was on the course at the start and um, there was an argument with someone was a little bit older and it was a bit conflicted.

Mel Marshall:

It was great space and he said a very poignant point because the other person had said, oh, you're only 41.

Mel Marshall:

He goes, but I've been on my bike for 25 years, so in my head I'm older and that's the thing that athletes have is. Not every athlete will have that, but if you can translate that experience and get them to be able to translate it back in their head, the wisdom that's in there, if you can unlock it, in my humble opinion is something that should be tapped into because they've just spent 20 years living it. I actually feel felt more qualified to do what I do when it came out of sport than I do now and I'm I've been out of it a little bit because you've been on the front line and you know what it's about and what it's like. But the key to a good coach is being able to translate your experience into useful information for other people, because you can't just sit there and go well in my day, because that me reliving my career in 2008 is not going to help the current world record holder that I'm working with.

Sue Anstiss:

And how would your athletes today describe you as a coach? Do you think?

Mel Marshall:

I'd be an interesting one. I think they would say that I was entertaining. I think they would say that I was probably firm but fair, and I think they would say that I was creative. I'd like to hope that they would say those things anyway.

Sue Anstiss:

And your relationship, your coaching relationship with Adam Peaty has been extraordinarily successful, as I mentioned in the intro. People obviously know that anyway, but what do you think has been the the key to that relationship?

Mel Marshall:

Well, a couple of things. I think we've been able to reinvent ourselves. It's always been trying to push the boundaries or make it fresh or change it up or move it around, or you know. I think we've been able to reinvent ourselves year upon year, and I think that's been one of the key things. I think another thing is that we're quite similar in our desires for high performance, and so, you know, we're very competitive, we want to achieve great things, and we're kind of both working class human beings that, I guess, want to work our way to the top, and the other one is just around.

Mel Marshall:

How do you say it? We think the same. I think that was the one thing that was. That was really, that was obvious, was like, we're wired very similar, which is why sometimes we would clash and but why sometimes, when it ran in synergy, it ran in synergy and I think there was just. I think, in terms of we needed each other, you know, in terms of there were so many times when we needed what it was that we were to move through to the next round and you've obviously worked with many world-class athletes.

Sue Anstiss:

So what qualities do you think you need to see in them as a coach, as you're meeting for the first time, that enables you to know they could succeed at the highest level. Are there, are there attributes that you see?

Mel Marshall:

yeah, competitive. So you know there's people that can. I, I would stand in front of nine athletes and they would all have a different why? And I think that that's valiant, and I think that it's about people going to their best version of themselves. But those super greats are just traumatized by losing. But I don't think it's about the winning, I actually think it's they're terrorized by the thought of losing, and the more they win, the more terrorized they get. So therefore, the more they push, they get addicted to it, and I think that's probably the difference between those ones that are the goods, the greats and the all-time greats. It's just this insane competitiveness.

Sue Anstiss:

I'm smiling, but it doesn't really sound very healthy, does it really?

Mel Marshall:

you know it's not, it's not and that's the thing is in terms of it. It does, it terrorizes them and it's a real, I feel in terms of that space you do have to like I remember some sessions with Adam and if it wasn't moving, oh, he'd be traumatized, it'd be like a full on grief, it'd be devastating for him. And you know, if you've got logic, it's kind of like, well, actually it's only moved, it's only not moved a little bit, and you've had plenty of other ones, but that's the thing that keeps him awake at night a little bit, and you've had plenty of other ones, but that's the thing that keeps them awake at night. And it is. It isn't healthy.

Mel Marshall:

And it's about getting that balance of how they can, you know, activate that super strength that they've got, but not send themselves kind of like destabilize themselves with it. And I always used to summarize it with adam with I want you to be fiercely competitive like the very, very most you know most competitive person in the world, but you don want you to be fiercely competitive like the very, very most you know most competitive person in the world, but you don't need to be that when you're in the supermarket and there's one loaf of bread and the 85 year old grandma is also going for it. So just trying to help them contextualize where you place that super strength and what's a positive experience with it and what can be a negative experience with it.

Sue Anstiss:

I love that. You're obviously recognised at the very being, at the very highest level of coaching. So how do you now keep learning and improving? Who are you learning from?

Mel Marshall:

I just think I try and put people around me that stimulate me in that space and challenge me. I think I know where my gaps are. So, like, in terms of like, like I've really put a quest on physiology being my thing to kind of just accelerate and just get better at it. So you know, in terms of people, I think I've got a language of people I can talk day in, day out and I can go anywhere in that space. But I've just tried to test myself and challenge myself in different areas to push myself and knowing what my gaps are. I think that's really important and I just it's. For me it's all about people. Like I had a brilliant coaching mentor called Rosie Mays oh sorry I was at Loughborough well, rosie was at Loughborough when I was at Loughborough.

Sue Anstiss:

Sorry, that was a bit of an emotional reaction there.

Mel Marshall:

I love Rosie yeah, so we worked together and we're still in contact now, obviously, but we've worked together for about 10 years and she knew that my style of learning was through, you know, interactions with people, and she encouraged me to do kind of this leadership project where I went out and I interviewed 24 leaders. I sat down with people like Alex Ferguson, gareth Southgate, baroness Sue Campbell, eddie Jones, adrian Morehouse and just I just immersed myself amidst them as leaders and like what are you about? What's your reason why? What are the challenges you face? That's where I learn. I learn through being able to question people, interact with people and just absorb the details that I need from from them and where they're at, and that's where I get my learning. I seek out people that can help me get better.

Sue Anstiss:

Excellent you obviously celebrate all the highs as a coach, but how hard is it also to deal with disappointments when those athletes that you care for and supported don't succeed?

Mel Marshall:

Breaks my heart and I think I don't know whether this is because I was an ex-athlete or because I'm quite an empathetic person. Some people can go home and go. It was X, y and Z. I'll always take it home as if it was my fault and that's something I've got to get better at. I just always think that what could I have done better? I always take and that's, I think, comes from that. I was one and I'm getting better at that because you can't take them all home. But, oh God, it breaks my heart, especially when you feel like did I do enough? Was I enough? Was I thinking enough? Was I challenged enough? But I think the more time you're spending it and this was the I loved working with Adam so, so much.

Mel Marshall:

It was the best experience and you know, but the hardest thing about working with him was because we'd worked together so long. Oh, I felt it. I felt it so hard every time he didn't get a session that he wanted or, oh, it would, um, god, it would run through me and um, you know, you need, you need, I need to get better at that. But that was the thing that I in terms of when that moved and that changed that it won't be the same kind of depth of that experience the next time around. So like, empathy is my compass, but with empathy you absorb everybody else's emotions. So when I finished, like big major meets, I'm like John Coffey on the green mile I'm tired now, boss, it's all escapes from me.

Sue Anstiss:

It's really interesting, isn't it? Well, it's good to hear that you're still evolving and learning and developing those things. I think people look at you and think, not yet. Well, she's there, you've done it, you've, you know, you kind of got to the highest heights, but it is interesting that you are still driven to keep improving and to be learning more.

Mel Marshall:

Yeah, you've got to go to bed an expert, but wake up a novice. And I think that's where humble starts, and I always think the difference between arrogance and confidence is respect for other people. And you know, I'm just going to try and stay humble, try and get better, and I think my best days are ahead of me and I just want to keep chasing that.

Sue Anstiss:

You obviously have competed and experienced championships at both levels, as an athlete and a coach at those big global championships and you've talked about kind of how you feel Paul's side. But would you rather look at a retrospective, looking back? Would you rather have won those goals yourself or to support athletes to be winning?

Mel Marshall:

I'll tell you what. The one thing that I would want is to still have abs. That is the thing I miss in terms of. You know, I've now got flabs instead of abs. That is the thing that I miss in terms of. You know, I've now got flaps instead of abs. So that's the only thing I really miss about being an athlete. But definitely the moments with coaching. They're just so spectacular. I used to get kind of endorphin highs off racing, but the coaching journey is just so much more emotional and I used to think when I was a swimmer, I thought I could be a coach. You know, there's just coach, go home in the day and come back could be any further from the truth and you, you work as hard as them, like you absorb as much as them, and they'd be like, oh no, you don't. I'm like you have no idea, you have no idea. So I would say the moments as a coach are yeah, they outweigh the moments as a an athlete it's interesting, though, isn't it?

Sue Anstiss:

because, because the coaches I talk to do say that, and yet why do we not see more people? Because it's bloody hard, isn't it coaching, but you almost think, as a driver, then, to have that opportunity to enjoy that success of athletes would attract more people yeah, I think that the reason why it gives you so much euphoria when it comes off is because of it.

Mel Marshall:

There's so many downs along the way, so you do experience a lot of lows and that's why, when adam won in rio, so euphoric because the the battles you'd had to fight for seven years with him, you know I can't even begin to tell you the the battles we had to fight to just get high performance where we were, and so, in terms of that, I think that's why it gives you these highs, but it's not for the faint-hearted. You know, if I look at what I had to endure to get to those first results in terms of Rio, it was brutal, it was absolutely brutal and it was there's not in terms of there was so much thrown at you and you're on your own. You're completely on your own and as somebody that is as a as a need to have people around them, you know even your team around you. You know even how good your team are. You're still on your own because they need you, and so that's the hardest part of it being it's got amazing highs, but you endure so much, and I think coaches now as well. They're almost dealing with problems of CEOs without the legal team to support them, without the parents backing sometimes. And you, I'm on low budgets because you're just getting thrown left, right and center with challenges all the time.

Mel Marshall:

You know, particularly in community sport, and we've got to keep hold of our coaches. It's so important because competition is the bread of life and you know coaching is that is. It's a. It unlocks human potential and I just think we're not respecting our coaches enough, we're not valuing them and we're not paying them enough, particularly at those community levels, and we're not giving giving them enough of a platform to be a disciplinarian in people's lives.

Mel Marshall:

And that's the problem. No one wants no anymore and nobody wants. Oh, that's not quite good enough. Everyone wants the participation medal and most people who've not had that know that the biggest value in your life is the one you don't win and the right education and support around those challenges. You become greater through it and also in life. You know you have to have, know and you have to come forth and you have to not win stuff, because when you go to the job interview, how on earth are you going to cope with the fact that you're just used to it? Everybody gets a go. That's not true. We're not preparing people for life. Sound like Piers Morgan, sorry.

Sue Anstiss:

I want to come and talk a little bit about female coaches as well too. So at the moment, uh, women make up only about 10 of olympic level coaches. That number hasn't really shifted in the last 20 years or so. So why do you think that is? Why do you kind of personal take? Why do you feel that is?

Mel Marshall:

um, well, actually, you know, it's really difficult to say. I think I think the first thing is there needs to be a better maternity package for female coaches. I think that, unfortunately, in coaching, that you have to make a choice. You're either going to be a parent and take that time off or you're not, and I think that's that's a real big challenge that needs to be worked on in the system massively. So I think that's the first thing. I think the second thing is we're spending a lot of time. Let's create a female empowerment movement, all that kind of stuff.

Mel Marshall:

I don't think the issue is with the women. I think the issue is the other side of the fence, and I think that I call it a continuum in terms of coaching, and it's much broader than this. But there's feminine ways of doing things and there's masculine ways of doing things. You would class the more masculine traits as setting direction, leadership, giving hard feedback, embracing conflict. You'd express the more female traits as showing empathy, showing emotion, showing care. A great coach can do all of them.

Mel Marshall:

And I think we shouldn't talk about females and males. We should talk about how do we improve our workforce and our coaches to be able to exhibit all of those tools along that continuum, and I think that men should be able to express emotion and show empathy. Men should be able to express emotion and show empathy, and and I think that women need to be able to set direction and embrace conflict and take feedback. And I don't think it's not about men and women. I think it's about what are the great traits of coaches and who is living to those processes, and I actually think that more opportunities need to be given as well, but they have to be earned I keep nodding my head and going excellent, excellent.

Sue Anstiss:

In some sports we do hear of female coaches who then have their top athletes poached from them by more experienced male coaches, or they believe that actually they should pass them across as they reach a certain level. Jenny Meadows spoke about that happening quite a lot in athletics. Actually, is that something you've experienced in swimming or you've seen in swimming?

Mel Marshall:

Well, I think it's interesting because I probably sit at both sides of the fence on this because obviously I took Adam from 15 all the way through to 30, effectively, and if you'd asked me when he was 18, would I have passed him on? One of the things that I wasn't going to do was no way. But I also wasn't selfish in the way that I didn't ever do anything that was going to hold him back. I worked 50 times harder to make sure we had enough where we were to keep him being able to get more and more and more. So I challenged myself of he's great, but I need to find the very, very best for him. And if I can't find the very, very best for him and give him the very, very, then I have to let him go. But my focus was I'm going to get him the best. So if I need a mentor for him, if I need long course, if I need better gym coach, if I need, I went out and got it. But there's some people that want to hold on to them. They don't have that, and so I just think it's a case by case scenario, but ultimately there comes a point when, if you can't provide it, you've got to let them go. And the other one is, you know, if they've been in the program for seven, eight years, unless you can reinvent it and reinvent it and change it, they need to find something different. And the other one is that you need to be of the level to be able to take them to that space.

Mel Marshall:

I was lucky because I'd been to Olympic sport. I knew what I was looking for. And if you asked me what it took, I was only able to do it because I was under 30. Because it took four in the morning until 10 at night and it took nine weeks without days off. And I wouldn't have been able to do that when I was 40. But when I was 20 to 34, I could do it. So I was headstrong and ridiculous in a lot of ways to keep hold of him, but I just wholeheartedly believed I could give him the best and I fought tooth and nail and what I did was I worked five jobs to make it happen. But I couldn't have done that when I was 35. But I was 26 and I'd just come out of swimming and so I thought, oh, 4am till 10pm, no big deal, like you do.

Sue Anstiss:

There's clearly a lack of female coaching role models at that top level and I'm so grateful to you for coming on board as one of the patrons for the Women's Sport Collective Coaching Hub. Now, I'm so grateful to you for coming on board as one of the patrons for the Women's Sport Collective Coaching Hub and it is amazing to celebrate those top level female coaches. But how important do you think it is that we have more of that visibility and representation?

Mel Marshall:

Yeah, definitely. I think there needs to be platforms, female coaches, there should be the face of Nike or the face of Adidas or you know. Those big sponsorship companies need to take hold of this and brand somebody and put them on that pedestal Because, you know, if you see it and people see it, people want it. I tell you what we see enough of now, and I'm going to sound like an old lady and a cynic, but we see enough of these platforms that ruin great people, opinion after opinion after opinion, and that's what we're up against. Actually, people now are frightened to be good, to be good, because look what comes with it. So I just think we need to create platforms, we need to have visibility of great coaching, and also we just need everybody to be talking about it. We need partners in terms of male counterparts. We need that to have a voice. We need women to have a voice, and I just think we need to create platforms to boot for visibility, because there's great things out there.

Sue Anstiss:

Do you feel pressure now as that high profile that you're obviously one of those few female coaches at the very top. Do you enjoy that? Is that something that just comes with the role that you do?

Mel Marshall:

Listen, when you've grown up in Skegnesh, nothing hurts you. Do you know what I mean? No, you know what. I felt a lot of pressure with the scenario with Adam and the three-peat, because it felt like the tide was against us and I've learned a massive amount from that. What kind of happened to me in the last two years of my career? Because it was so evident that all of my eggs were in that basket and we had to get that done and all the decisions that I made were to protect that performance. I sort of lost sight of why I started it, which is I love coaching, the challenge of humans, and under pressure and under stress I'd kind of lost sight of that. So I've really that whole process of trying to get the three p and achieve that and that's just taught me to. You can only do what you can do like as long as you hold yourself accountable, as long as you do the best that you can do.

Mel Marshall:

Sport is sport. I hold myself accountable to my processes. Am I doing a good job? Am I communicating? Am I writing good periodization? Am I writing good sessions? Am I taking care of myself? And that's where I live and that's what I made the decision and that's what's been nice to break away, because that allows me to just to just do that. And there's pressure in what I'm doing. You know, I've got an incredible group, um, I've got the, the double doubler. So who's going to try and do the double three-peat? So who's that? My name's Kaylee McEwan. So she won the double in Tokyo and won the double in Paris. But I got so wound up with it all last time. It genuinely it just it took my soul away and I'm just like, just I don't want to do that again. You know, I want to do it because I love it, and if I'm not loving it, then I shouldn't do it.

Sue Anstiss:

And what's next for you? Longer term, where do you see your career going in the future? Will you stay in coaching that 4am till 10pm? But what would you like to do long term?

Mel Marshall:

I mean, I really love it here and they've obviously got a home olympics in brisbane. I I do a lot of leadership stuff which I really enjoy. I work for a really great company called the leadership high and, um, I do like that space. So I feel like being in performance sport and the things that you learn. I feel like, in terms of that, cross learning across businesses is a good place.

Mel Marshall:

I would love to be head of performance for something like the Women's FA. I would love that, but you probably need a PhD. But I've got a PhD in life. I've actually got an honorary one, which really annoys people who have got a real one. But yeah, I don't see myself being on deck beyond Brisbane and if an opportunity came on beyond LA, I wouldn't be opposed to that either. I feel like I'm good at coaching, but I feel like I'm better at people. I think the pool is just one thing, but helping people lead teams, helping people create what it is to be high performance, having challenging conversations. I feel like I can go into a room and suss out what's going on not quite quickly and I feel like I'd be a a room and suss out what's going on not quite quickly and I feel like I'm a I'd be a big asset for some people in that space.

Sue Anstiss:

So sort of giving you a CPD of what I want to do next there, but yeah, but that, that kind of that's, that's my passion and just finally, what advice would you give to younger women, but those coming through sport now that might be thinking about coaching as a career in the future?

Mel Marshall:

Right. So I think that the thing is knowledge is power is the first thing. So you need to be the most knowledgeable person in the room and you need to have knowledge on the things that you know that other people will be talking about. The second one is that my mum told me before roller disco on a Friday night right when I used to get a bit nervous get in, get stuck in, try your best, don't think about it too much and enjoy yourself. We spend in terms of I think it's a, I do think it's a female trait, but we play it over and over in our head Just get stuck in Like, don't think about it too much, get stuck in, yeah. And the third one I would say is that belief comes from inside you. So to get that inner belief which will radiate wherever you go, look at what you're good at, own that, look at where your gaps are, own that and accept that and be the change that you're looking for. I think that's really important.

Sue Anstiss:

What an extraordinary and impressive woman. I think that's really important. The game changes that are free to listen to on all podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. My guests have included Olympians, paralympians and world champions, along with coaches, entrepreneurs, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs all women who are changing the game in sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 10,500 members across the world, so please do come and join us.

Sue Anstiss:

The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you once again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective through a National Lottery Award, and to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such a brilliant job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my fantastic colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. You can find the Game Changers on all podcast platforms, so please do follow us now and you won't miss out on future episodes. Do come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me at Sue Anstis. The Game Changers Fearless women in sport.

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Sue Anstiss

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Sam Walker

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