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The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Jess Thirlby: Coaching, Courage and Creating Change
"I hate mediocrity. As soon as it feels like we’re sitting in the status quo, I feel like I’m failing."
In this brilliant episode of The Game Changers, Sue Anstiss is joined by Jess Thirlby, Head Coach of the Vitality Roses and one of the most respected leaders in world netball.
From growing up in a deeply sporting family in the South West to representing England at the Commonwealth Games and ultimately leading the national side, Jess shares an extraordinary journey through sport.
Jess’s warmth and candour are apparent as she reflects on:
- Finding her love for netball in a primary school playground
- Playing alongside legends during the pioneering years at Team Bath
- Making history as England’s first full-time netballer and how it reshaped her view of the sport
- Stepping into the Roses Head Coach role after their historic 2018 Commonwealth Gold — and the pressure and privilege of leading a team with the nation’s hopes on their shoulders
- Her bold, collaborative coaching style and relentless pursuit of excellence
- Her ambition to lead the team to World Cup Gold in 2027
- Balancing high-performance leadership with family life and the realities of motherhood in elite sport
Jess speaks powerfully about the evolution of netball, her hopes for Super League 2.0, and why the sport must remain unapologetically female-first while building a more inclusive and sustainable future.
A compelling conversation that highlights what it takes to lead with integrity in the spotlight, inspire the next generation and stay grounded — even when chasing that elusive World Cup Gold.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore key issues around equality in sport and beyond? As always, a huge thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support The Game Changers podcast through a National Lottery Award. As a keen netballer myself, I am thrilled to welcome Jess Thirlby to the podcast this week.
Sue Anstiss:Jess is a former England netball player and the current head coach of the England Roses. She was a part of Team Bath's squad that won the inaugural netball Super League title in 2006 and represented England at the 2002 Commonwealth Games. Transitioning into coaching, Jess led the Celtic Dragons before returning to Team Bath, first as assistant coach, then head coach and director of netball, guiding the team to multiple Super League titles. In July 2019, jess was appointed England's head coach and director of netball, guiding the team to multiple Super League titles. In July 2019, jess was appointed England's head coach and in 2023, she led the England Roses to their first ever World Cup final, with an ambition to take them one step further at the World Cup in Sydney in 2027. Jess is widely respected in the netball world for her strategic acumen, leadership and dedication to the sport.
Sue Anstiss:Just a flag. We did have a couple of issues with the audio in the middle of this podcast, but it's such great content I didn't want you to miss it, so please do stick with it, as it's only for a couple of minutes. I started by asking Jess about how sport played a part in her life as she grew up. She came from a very sporty family, but was netball always her first love?
Jess Thirlby:In short, definitely, I think, because it was my first experience really of sport at school. So I think I would have been in primary school, maybe year four, and I remember what went on to be a really influential PE teacher. So many of us have got that story, haven't? We and you weren't meant to represent the school until year five and six and she obviously saw something in me and kindly invited me on the top playground at my junior school to trial amongst the year fives and sixes and I knocked out a poor year six which I still remember her name and I like feel awful for doing it knocked her out of the team.
Sue Anstiss:Rather than knocked her, knocked her out of the team. Yeah, that's terrible.
Jess Thirlby:I didn't have that in me for sure, um, and I think the score was two nil and I'd scored the two goals. So I just felt this like everybody was just like, oh my gosh, like that's amazing, because at that age I think it's quite novel, isn isn't it, to actually get it in. So yeah, I just remember netball definitely was kind of like my first experience of sport, but I went on to play lots of other things and was encouraged to do so, but also showed a keen interest to try and other sports as well. But I didn't really kind of feel the same vibe with individual sports. I did athletics to quite a high level through my secondary school. What events did? Basketball rounders, hockey, well, new guests, why don't you guess what high jump? No, no, I um, I don't know if this is. My husband will be devastated that I'm saying this publicly again, but I was a shot putter and a discus thrower.
Sue Anstiss:I love shot put. I did a lot of shot put too.
Jess Thirlby:I know, I know. So, yeah, I'm very proud of I had long levers at the time. So I was, yeah, I was pretty kind of tall and long and apparently, yeah, that's what led to me being a little bit successful as a junior. But I didn't quite get the same vibe from it as I did from team sport and netball. So I definitely was always kind of like leaning towards, yeah, netball. But it certainly was my first love in sport, for sure.
Jess Thirlby:And your dad was. He did a professional footballer. Yeah, no, dad was a professional footballer. He played for bristol city um, then he signed for chelsea, went to leicester and then returned back to bristol city um later on in his career. But, um, I've written, I've only really fully appreciated dad's kind of sporting achievements really later in life because I think he was very much coming towards the tail end.
Jess Thirlby:I was born in 1979. I think his final season was maybe the 82, 83 season back at Bristol City and so, yeah, I haven't really fully appreciated it, which is terrible really. But I was a radiographer when I first graduated from university and often people would look at my badge, the patients, and say, oh, are you the daughter of Chris Garland? And it kind of like dawned on me, like how much of an impact, particularly locally within the Bristol area, like how impactful kind of dad's story had been and you know, I took for granted I think later in his career he did a little bit of management, just dipped his toe down in mine head and I met George Best and like these things were most probably lost on me a little bit at the time and it's only really been, yeah, latter and obviously we lost dad in 2023. But I've got two older brothers and my oldest brother in particular is brilliant at kind of like reminding us all of dad's achievement. So, yeah, my dad definitely was the pro footballer, but I'd say my mum was the biggest influence in terms of netball. She started off a little netball club in our area for all of the mum and housewives and then engaged that PE teacher that I mentioned before, and so from there on in, I just sat on sidelines watching, watching them and felt inspired really.
Jess Thirlby:Were your brothers sporty too? Yeah, they were both really sporty. They both played football, but I would say my middle, like the middle one of us, was um more serious into his football. My eldest brother was more of a golfer both of them, if they were here, would be cringing because they'd say, oh, we were not. We were nowhere near any decent level, but they did they. They both pursued sport and I think, as you mentioned before, I just grew up in a household that if we weren't playing sport, we were watching sport. My brother's a man United supporter, hence why I'm a Manchester United supporter. Sport was always part of the course in our house, really.
Sue Anstiss:And you mentioned that you've been a radiographer. You were studying radiography when you moved across to become team bar's first full-time player in 1999, so did it feel at the time like it was a real turning point for for the sport?
Jess Thirlby:did it feel at the time like it was a real turning point for for the sport? Yeah, definitely I was. I was still studying, actually, and then when Lynn Gunson arrived, and before that Ali Oliver and Jed Roddy approached me, I was playing age group netball and actually heading towards my own world youth cup in Cardiff in 2000. So it was quite a serious time for me and I had finished my first year of my degree and then they called me up to say they were going to start a full-time netball program and you've got to remember this is like 1999.
Jess Thirlby:Like you know, the England team were only training one weekend a month at that point, and so it was massively groundbreaking to kind of be the first player to be invited to be part of something so incredible, with high caliber coaches that were prepared to come from New Zealand to come and coach, you know.
Jess Thirlby:So they were quick to kind of recruit some of us and I guess in the southwest area at the time I was lucky to be one of the only players most probably in the pathway at that moment.
Jess Thirlby:So it was the most probably obvious to to kind of ask if I wanted to, but still a really big commitment from me and I took a year out, actually between my first and second year of my degree, to just throw myself at the opportunity, and I'm so glad that I did because it was pioneering at the time and I still think to an extent now, because I still think it's really led the way for people to think about what's possible rather than what we can't do, and I think I've really held onto that now in terms of my playing and coaching journey. I don't take no very well for an answer and I quite enjoy the challenge of trying to do things differently or for the first time. So, yeah, I think it was a huge moment for the sport and hopefully had great ripple effects across not just our country but across the world as well and were your parents supportive of it at that time in terms of your taking a year out from your studies and so on?
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, no, it's a really good question. I don't know if I've ever really asked that. I don't think they had much choice. I kind of put the phone down to Ali Oliver and was on like a train over to Bath within like 20 minutes and sat outside around the athletics track discussing when can I start, and they didn't even have the coach then. But yeah, I think they were.
Jess Thirlby:My parents have always been really supportive and I always have really valued pursuing my academics as well as my sport. And that's not to say I've never found academics easy. It doesn't come naturally to me, but I've always been really hardworking and I do take real pride in trying to achieve things. So I would like to think that both my parents and also my mum as well, because my mum and dad separated when I was about 13 or 14. So I was living just with my mum and I think she always knew that I was quite diligent, I wasn't going to take things for granted. I didn't see that obviously at the time, definitely didn't see that as a career, but certainly saw it as a love and a passion. So I think she most probably trusted that I wouldn't do it at the cost of my academic study and I didn't, so hopefully I've repaid that trust.
Sue Anstiss:I like that, and representing your country at the 2002 Commonwealth Games must have been a huge moment in your playing career. So what emotions and experiences stand out for you now when you kind of look back at that over 20 years ago. I know that's scary isn't it?
Jess Thirlby:um, yeah, mixed. Most probably, namely because I wasn't originally selected in the squad to go to the Commonwealth Games and I know you've had Pam on here before and she works closely with you and I, unfortunately, slash fortunately was Pam's replacement because sadly Pam ruptured her cruciate ligament very close to the tournament and I'd gone through all the trials and the selection and I knew I was close but not quite in that initial 12. You know it was disappointing, but I was still quite young, I was trying to transition really into that senior group. So, yeah, it was. It was mixed, I guess of like how I found myself in in the squad, but I also felt like it was a great honor to to be Pam's replacement and, uh, it was important that I held true to both represent her around the team as best I could.
Jess Thirlby:I was originally going to be going actually to do some media with the local BBC radio here, so I remember being on the train and all things shifted very, very close to the competition. So, yeah, I mean in in that sense quite mixed. But then I can't ever forget, like what it felt to walk out as the, the home nation in a home Commonwealth Games. Was really special, um, obviously it was David Beckham's one, where he ran around with the torch, so that's not bad either, um, so yeah it was. It was really special, like being kind of the last nation to walk out and then you fast forward and I was so fortunate enough to do that again as a coach in Birmingham like there's nothing like that. Um, and as much as we all talk about results and medals and obviously that's the world that we live in and we all want those I think those moments are most probably as precious, if not more so, because there's nowhere else in the world where you can feel that.
Jess Thirlby:And so, yeah, the Commonwealth Games was amazing and I kind of knew my role for the team. I knew that I hadn't necessarily obviously gone in there as a starting seven player and it was important that I did what I could to kind of support that team. It was a really senior team with a lot of players that had played together a long time. So there were elements where I most probably don't know if I fully belonged at times, but in terms of the experience it was incredible and yeah, I'm very, very grateful to be able to look back on that and later on married my husband, who happened to have been at those Commonwealth Games with the England Sevens of, with the England Sevens of which I didn't meet him there, by the way, so just in case. But yeah, so it's quite nice we can tell the children that mum and dad were both at the Manchester Commonwealth Games.
Sue Anstiss:Oh, that's so lovely, isn't it? And did you play in Pamela's shirt, in her kit, because your kit wasn't? I feel like she was a guest on the first series of the Game Changers. We're on the 19th series. Now it's 19th series. Now it's a long time ago, but I remember her talking about the player that came on to play for her had to, had to kind of inherit her shirt, as it were. Is that most probably?
Jess Thirlby:yeah, I do remember giving Pam nearly all of the kit at the end, because I just didn't feel like it was mine to keep hold of um and she'd really earned that selection. So I do remember I had a few items, but definitely gave most of it to Pam. It was Pam's kit, but most probably you know how these things work you get fitted for kit, however long in advance, and it's kit's always an interesting topic, isn't it around major competition. So, yeah, most probably. But that's flattering me, I think, because if I can fit into Pam's kit and be half as athletic, then I'll take that that's funny.
Sue Anstiss:I remember her talking about it, but didn't make the connection that that was you too fantastic. Yeah, as you've mentioned, you played alongside some pretty incredible players so Pamela Cookie, but also Serena Guthrie, leila Gusguth, who have also been guests on the Game Changers, and you're kind of excited to. I feel like I've just had a whole team bath thing in terms of my netballers on the podcast.
Jess Thirlby:But how would you say those playing experiences and playing with athletes like that then has shaped your approach to leadership and coaching yeah, I think I mean again, you're most probably doing them a disservice because, in particular, like Serena and Leila, are far younger than I and most probably only know me more as a coach and a young coach than most probably a player. But I have had the privilege of playing with a huge number of players that maybe at the start of their journey weren't representing England and then, through our time at Team Bath together, we were fortunate that so many of us were able to pull on the red dress. And I think the things that stick with me the most are in those early days at team bath, like we were really just a bunch of misfits that's how we used to refer to ourselves like nobody really knew what we were doing, why we were doing it. I think everyone was a bit kind of it's like anything that you don't really understand, like you're a bit envious of it but you don't really get what everyone's doing. And we were just a group of misfit players with you know really good ambition who were kind of galvanized, I guess, by the energy and passion of Jed Ali and Lynn, to think that there was something in us as a collective and I always think the the bit that stuck with me most, but both playing with those players, but more so I'd say, the environment was around, the strength in the collective and it was never. There was never an individual bigger than the team.
Jess Thirlby:And I think for me in my coaching today, like how you set the environment up and getting the right people on the bus, the right people around you, is the most important thing. And whilst I appreciate in sport, you know we have some excellent trailblazers, you know we have some brilliant, fantastic people with big egos and the sport needs that, I think from my perspective, the thing that I think is the glue is always the environment and the people, and never losing sight, in particular team sport, that you just can't do it without everybody. And the joy that I found wasn't success on its own, it was success alongside my peers and on behalf of something that felt much bigger than just me, and I don't really get any kind of joy from anything unless I see joy through those that I'm working with. So I think, yeah, the bits that stuck with me most is just how bold I think we most probably were, and I don't think we felt that at the time, but I think we were quite brave actually and quite bold to do something that hadn't really been done before, sometimes to be criticised.
Jess Thirlby:You know like those first few five years were not fun at Team Bath in terms of results. You know like we were. I think Super Cup became fifth, sixth and fifth again out of six teams and then managed to finish third and thought we'd won the World Cup. Like it wasn't really the results that made it special, it was the journey to get there and I think that's most probably something that, yeah, I do hold on to quite dearly now, and that sense of belonging like we were from all over the country. You know, to look at it, you'd most probably question if we had anything in common.
Jess Thirlby:And yet we found this common ground which was to kind of really pursue something and see if we could just make a splash for the sport, because I think that's what Lynn was brilliant at. You know Lynn wasn't doing it for herself, she was doing it to make systematic change and for the sport to be taken seriously. And I think because she came from such a pedigree herself in New Zealand and she was such a strong female leader that I think you couldn't not be inspired by that and she went about her work in some ways so quietly, but through us and through that team bath experience, it could have been called anything, you know, it didn't really matter. It was just energising a group to kind of really pursue something and have that belief that anything was possible. I think is yeah, is incredible really.
Sue Anstiss:As a coach. How did she come to be over here from New Zealand as a kind of former player?
Jess Thirlby:I most probably don't know the ins and outs of it, but I think Lynn and I think Ali Sori and Jed were quite insistent on obviously doing this and doing it really well and it was going to be the first of its kind. So yeah, I don't actually know the connections per se, but they definitely, as I say, big ambition, very bold, not afraid to do things, quite fearless, and how they go about it. So I think they were always going to kind of reach out to high caliber coaching and you couldn't really get much higher than Lynn as a former St Fern's captain and coach, and a successful one at that. So you know, even when you looked at the England coaches at the time, you know we did go through a phase of obviously having some overseas coaches, both from Australia Y Marama Talman, who was the performance director as well. So we had quite a strong influence from overseas and quite rightly.
Jess Thirlby:You know like they are number one and were number one and two in the world and have been dominating. So rightly. You know like they are number one and were number one and two in the world and have been dominating. So I think for netball to be taken seriously here, I can understand why we did do that. I mean, it made a bit of a splash really, but I think Lynn's character was just perfect for us. You know, it's instilled in me like a humility that I think is important to carry through with you in the ups and the downs, and I think Lynn epitomised that to me as well.
Sue Anstiss:And was there a moment when you were?
Jess Thirlby:playing that you began to realise coaching was for you as a next step. Yeah, I don't know if I again I feel like all this retrospective learning is great, but in the moment I'm not sure if there was a singular moment, because I think what I believe happened is Lynn saw the potential in a lot of us through our playing and whilst I truly believe that she was there first and foremost to give all of us, including myself, the best chance to achieve on the court as a player, I think over time she most probably got to know us and saw potential in other ways, and I think there was most probably a whole group of us for whom she felt could show some signs of potential in coaching. And I don't know if she was ever from the start I don't think she would have been explicit about that but what she did was she opened doors and encouraged us to try coaching in different methods and environments whilst we were still playing. So, rather than see it as a either or, we kind of just started that coaching journey almost without realizing. And I know there was a really important experience for me where Lynn, alongside some other colleagues, took a group of us over to South Africa and we went to Malawi and Botswana as well and we were playing and coaching and, quite seriously as well, we entered teams into a South Africa age group tournament. There'd be a couple of us who were responsible for one team bath group, another group, coaching and, quite seriously as well, we entered teams into a South Africa age group tournament. There'd be a couple of us who were responsible for one team bath group, another group, another set of coaches, and then we'd play on other parts of that tour and it was a steep learning curve and when I look back on that now, those experiences weren't by accident.
Jess Thirlby:Lynn knew exactly what she was doing by affording us those opportunities that I just don't think we would have got anywhere else through the way in which she thought so innovatively about it and cared about developing people. So I don't know if there was a moment, but I do think I do owe a lot to the fact that, because I started that coaching journey whilst I was playing, I think it kind of just meant that I was a little bit further along others who I think of, since you know, generations above me. There was quite a gap. When I started coaching and stopped playing, I was 26. And you know, most people used to greet me with oh my God, you're so young, like, why have you stopped playing? Because there was such a gap between me and the next generation of coaches at that time at that level, and I think since then absolutely others have come through, you know, like the Karen Atkinsons, the Tracy Nevels, the Olivia Murphys. They were actually older than me in terms of playing generation but they came into coaching most probably a little bit after me.
Jess Thirlby:Having started that coaching journey early just meant that I'd experienced some things the ups and downs of coaching and gone through all my coaching qualifications. Really by my mid-20s I'd got my level three and was actively pursuing experiences through the UK Sport Elite Coach Program. I traveled overseas and spent time in what are now some of the SSN or ANZ clubs and placements, with Vicky Wilson at Firebirds and the late Robin Broughton at Southern Steel in New Zealand. So I was kind of out there really trying to understand what real coaching looked like, because I think in our country at the time it was quite sessional and it was quite transactional and I had mentors around me that were really challenging the thinking around what coaching really is and that wasn't really coaching and so it was great for me to kind of just be a few years ahead of the curve in terms of getting out and about and actually experiencing different coaching styles.
Sue Anstiss:Really, and are you doing that with your players now? Are you identifying those that you think would do well in coaching? Is there an opportunity to do that today?
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think I'm most probably a product of that and we're all a product of those experiences, aren't we? So I think I love to see potential in people and try and be part of their journey. I I think it can be much broader than just coaching now, which I think is a is a sign of like um, where the sport is at. So you know, we've seen so many players and a lot of the people that I played with at Bath obviously go into media or go into management, and I think you know, I guess in recent times, in my role currently, serena would be a great example, joe Harton would be great examples of players that I think have potential to still hugely contribute, and it doesn't just have to be in Roses where I am, just have to be in roses where I am. But I think because of their journey and because of their skill set, I see great potential in them as people, not only professionals.
Jess Thirlby:But Jo's a great example of coaching. She's a netball nerd like me, and it would be a waste of her abilities and I do think you know I saw something in Jo that I think is she's curious about the game and I think curiosity is always a great strength in a coach and I think think for Serena, her skill set is so much broader than people believe it to be, because we're so in awe of what she was able to do on the court. You make these natural connections between therefore, you can coach, and actually sometimes I think we need to pause and give those players, or former players, more credit. They're so capable. I'm surrounded by players who are just so skillful in so many different ways. So, yeah, if I can in any way signpost or enable them to maybe pursue something that they don't believe in themselves, then that's most probably what I feel I experienced.
Sue Anstiss:And it is lovely as a fan, to see Joe and Serena and see them on the bench with you and others. You know, I think it's lovely to have not lost them from the sport. Also, it's always fantastic to see yeah, absolutely and what was it like you talked about? I guess there was a bit of that transition, but going from being a teammate, a close teammate with players, to then being their coach, and obviously you then went back to team bath too yeah, it's tricky, is the quick answer.
Jess Thirlby:But it was tricky and I remember having this conversation with a few of my mentors at the time and I guess you know most people will know that when I first started coaching full time which is what the UK Sport Elite Coach Program enabled me to do I got asked actually by Ian Root who was with Welsh Network and Celtic Dragons at the time. By Ian Root who was with Welsh Network and Celtic Dragons at the time and he took a real leap of faith on me because I hadn't coached at that level, I'd coached at every other level underneath that and there was an opening. He called me and said look, do you want to be the Celtic Dragons head coach? And I had quite a lot of conflict because obviously Team Bath was kind of like my love really. But when I thought about my coaching journey it really helped accelerate some of those quick learnings that I needed to make if I was genuinely going to pursue coaching seriously. But at the same time it did allow slight departure between the relationships that I'd formed as a, as a player and a teammate, and then to be starting to be seen as a coach. So, yeah, I think my time away at Celtic Dragons, for which I'm really grateful to Ian and Walsh Netball really for taking a leap of faith on me. I absolutely loved it. I think we'd finished bottom of the league the year before I went and then I think we finished second off the bottom, which for me felt like an achievement, and I think we'd won maybe three games where we'd won none previously and in a short space of time. It was like a real eye-opener. And that then meant when I returned to Team Bath as assistant coach, I guess people then at least knew that I was taking coaching seriously and to kind of give up and retire from playing. To do so was quite a strong sign that I really did want to become the best coach I could.
Jess Thirlby:But it was tricky because we're all on the minibus on the way back from Blackpool winning our first Super Cup with champagne and breaking down. And then you have to try and build up some credibility over the next however many years, which I'm still continuing to try and do, and you're just trying to accelerate that. So your relationships undoubtedly have to evolve. But I also think you have to remain really authentic. You can't flick a switch, and I didn't want to. You know these players meant the world to me as friends, and many of them are still very much in my life. So I think, if there's a mutual respect there and everybody's intent is coming from a really great place, and because I was surrounded by such incredible women like Pam and Rach and Sarah Bayman and Anna and Billy Bowers, you know, like you can't, it's quite unforgiving because we're all striving for something pretty special within our own right. So I think, if there's respect, I think it can work out fine.
Jess Thirlby:But I wasn't. I was never a big. You know, we've got some really memorable nights out when we won Super League or Super Cup, but I was. I was never out every night. So I guess I just need to, needed to be a bit mindful of when I did go out, like, what role am I playing here? But I think, yeah, we forgave ourselves a bit and year after year, generations move on, don't they so? But it was. It was tricky, for sure, because everyone likes to be liked I think it's human nature so and everyone gets FOMO, you know. So you want to be involved in everything and I've had to really learn where to kind of like draw those boundaries between friend and coach, and and I think that was tricky most probably for a good five or so years, until which point the players coming through didn't even remember me as a player, and then in lots of ways that became much easier.
Sue Anstiss:You took over as England head coach in 2019. It was just a year after the team's historic Commonwealth Games gold. That must have come with huge expectations for you, sort of stepping into the role of being head coach of a team that had had the highest ever level of success.
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, and isn't that brilliant. I think we've waited like entirety, like what feels like decades, for people to expect the team to do well. But of course I'm not naive. You know like you win, the team win one gold and the world now expects us to keep winning gold. And it doesn't work like that, like sport, just doesn't work like that. And you will know more so than I that there are so few teams across the world, let alone English teams, that have been able to do things back to back, in particular at a world level.
Jess Thirlby:And I think that team that achieved that, having been fortunate enough to work with a lot of them in their age groups and in some specialist roles, they were really ripe for that success and I'm really proud and pleased that they got that, because that cohort of players were kind of 10 years in the making. So I think, yes, coming into that role at that point do I think there were a number of people that would have liked to have been England coach but most probably thought, no, thanks, not right now. Yeah, I do, because I don't. I'm not sure everyone wanted to step in at that time my perspective or as I kind of journeyed through the unexpected opportunity, I guess because I hadn't realized that that opportunity was going to come around having stepped away from Team Bath was. I don't think I have the right to kind of pick and choose the time where you get the privilege of putting your name in the hat to lead your country, and so for me me that wasn't a reason to not go for it was a reason to absolutely go for it and actually be brave enough to have a go at trying to add that incredible success that the team had had. They've just thrown the sport on, on, you know, in the spotlight, which comes with lots of challenges but lots of huge opportunity.
Jess Thirlby:And I think that I'd worked closely with the England pathway for such a long time. I felt like you know, I have a good grasp as to what the work that's going to need to get done, and it was going to be about transitioning more players and more depth and quality within that depth and some changes within the system in order that that isn't going to be a one-off. You know I was so about not wanting to be the equivalent. You know talking about the 1966 football team for the next 50 years, and I say that with great respect, but I don't want netball to be talking about just 2018. I I wanted to contribute whichever way I can to increase our chances of repeated, sustained and greater success, and that was never going to happen overnight.
Jess Thirlby:But then I think that it's not my right to kind of dampen that from our fans.
Jess Thirlby:I think it's really important to actually grab hold of that and celebrate it and obviously help bring people on the journey and educate everyone as to the the huge things that we still have to work really hard at if we're going to be able to repeat that again and more, because we haven't yet done it at a World Cup and arguably, you could say that that's our pinnacle event. So that's kind of, for me, what really drove me and my first call with all the players was you know, let's go where no team has gone before and let's do what no team has gone before and let's do what no team has done before and let's really go all out for that World Cup. And obviously we made some really great progress in that in 2023, but we've still got so much to do and that's exciting and, yeah, I think if you're going to try and do something that's never been done, you've got to be bold and have a go right, because you're not here forever.
Sue Anstiss:So let's just give it a best shot. So, yeah, there was, there was pressure, but I guess it depends on how you view future really. And has the role as head coach been what you thought it would be? It's obviously the pinnacle of coaching as a netball coach, but has it lived up to the expectations that you had? And I know you've been in the pathway so you'd seen youth teams and you'd worked in the pathway before but is it what you thought it would be?
Jess Thirlby:um, yeah, I think I I most probably through some of my other roles and I like most probably the one at team of earth.
Jess Thirlby:I think I'd learned quite quickly how brutal the landscape can be in a head coach role in a sport that is yet to be fully professional, and the multiple hats that you're wearing, and how quickly you have to develop skills and knowledge and expertise in areas that I don't think people realize that you need.
Jess Thirlby:It's quite a challenging landscape to be, but it's well worth it. Is it what I expected? I don't think there's been huge surprises, but is it really hard? Yeah, it is, but that's okay because it's really worth it and, I think, because the sport has growth still to be made. I think we're in a really exciting time for the sport, and so to be in this role right now, with the evolution of the game and the fact that we're taking our first steps into really trying to professionalise the game across the domestic competition, for me is a real privilege to be part of that transformational change and it won't happen overnight, but I feel really lucky to be in this role where I can hopefully both contribute and influence really positive change for the sport and what kind of coach are you?
Sue Anstiss:how would your players describe you?
Jess Thirlby:oh gosh, how. I don't know if how the players would describe me is the same thing. Is that me answering that question? But I mean my. My approach is always to try and instill like a real limitless belief in players and to help them not just reach potential but feed their perception of what their potential is. I'm quite a collaborative coach, so I'm definitely I'm certainly not a dictator. I'm very curious. I love to work with people, not at people, and so, yeah, if I guess, if you were watching me like me at my best, like bouncing off other coaches, other players. I don't have to know it all, but I need to know how to get the best out of each other and I really enjoy that space.
Jess Thirlby:I think I'm often described by either peers or colleagues as very innovative. I hate following, basically I hate doing things that have already been done, and so I'm always trying to look for kind of that edge or a different way to go about something. So, yeah, really quite collaborative. I definitely am very open-minded. I'm very reflective coach, quite analytical, but I wouldn't not in terms of numbers, not in that crude way, but just very, very reflective. I'm pretty demanding, but mostly demanding of myself before others. I am quite relentless. I think that's what, in particular, my colleagues would most probably describe me as I am quite relentless. I think that's what, in particular, my colleagues would most probably describe me as I am quite relentless because I'm not happy to sit in the status quo and I hate mediocrity. So yeah, as soon as it feels like we're doing that, then I feel like I'm most probably failing. So yeah, I'm always eyes forward and going for the next thing.
Sue Anstiss:How are you improving, how do you get better as a coach at the level that you are?
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, well, I think a lot of that comes down to kind of like your values a little bit and also like your own processes that you put in place. I know that. You know I look in the mirror all the time and ask myself, like what are the things that I could be doing better? I'm very open to learning, so I never I see myself as a lifelong learner, however cliched that sounds. And that doesn't mean that I don't take accountability, I don't take responsibility or I don't feel qualified. I do feel qualified but I think you can do those concurrently with learning and I think it's really important to have good people around you who have got your best interests at heart. And that critical friend From a professional perspective, you know I really embrace, really embrace any high performance coach development. I encourage that in our environment we have. So I do. You know I'm linking to leaders in sport. I really enjoy conversation when I just, if you make time and you sit around like-minded people that that for me is learning.
Sue Anstiss:It doesn't always have to be really formalized we've obviously seen the huge impact of high-profile female athletes across other sports so Lona Marr playing in the PWI in rugby, megan Rapinoe in football and Caitlin Clarke and Angel Rees in women's basketball WNBA and they've really helped to grow the game through their personalities and the fan engagement and we're obviously talking a lot about that in the world of women's sport at the moment. Do you feel that netball and England netball needs one or two of those superstar players to transcend the sport? Or you mentioned earlier, didn't you, that important part of the collective and being cohesive, which is, I know, where rugby has always come, not wanting those kind of tall poppies that stand out. Where do you feel netball is in that space?
Jess Thirlby:Well, firstly, I think we have some incredible characters already. So I guess my quick challenge to that would be are we doing enough to kind of celebrate characters that I have the privilege of working with every week? And whether it's them as people, professionally, outside of sport, they have such amazing stories to tell, and so I guess I would encourage us, as a sport, to really celebrate that more incredible role models in so many different ways, whether or not we need one or two. I mean, I feel like it would be a disservice, because I just think we've got so many like it would feel a shame that we kind of need to to lean on the shoulders of just one athlete when I think, as a sport, we've got so much more to shout about. You know we've got Jay Clark, who's the most cat player ever to play internationally. You know you've got Fumi Fidoju, who you just can't ignore on a netball court, but we want to know her as a person as well, and if people could see and experience what I get to, I just think the ripple effect would be huge. So I do agree that we need to be even better in that space, and I think we are improving. I'm not big on social media, but I can sense that we are celebrating the characters that we've got within the game. I just think we need to keep doing that and accelerate that even more. But undoubtedly, the figures that you mentioned before they've been incredible.
Jess Thirlby:I live in Bristol so I've seen and felt some of the impact of the recruitment from Bristol Bears and hopefully for the wider rugby community as well. So I think if we can be smart like that sport attainment is spoken about all the time, isn't it? And I know with our new NSL 2.0, you know the whole fan experience is really important. We need to convert the millions of people that watch the World Cup in 2023 and the sellout stands in Birmingham in the Commonwealth Games. We need to convert those people to long standing fans of the game who are going to help grow it and invest in it. So I don't think it's through lack of followership. I think it's more around, like you say, the profile and almost kind of oversupplying potential investors with a greater profile of some of the brilliant role models that we have in the game.
Sue Anstiss:And you mentioned the Netball Super League 2.0 there, which is obviously really exciting that's launching this year. How do you see the, the nsl teams developing their players and that helping them, the england squad in the future?
Jess Thirlby:yeah, look it's. I feel really passionate about this. As you know, I kind of sat on the side of in that super league space for such a long time and saw relatively really good growth of the game. But we need to go there quicker. But it needs to be done in a way which is going to be sustainable and I think the relationship is symbiotic. You know, like the roses help be a shop window for the sport and us being successful is really important to grow the game domestically, and domestic success is really important for me selfishly.
Jess Thirlby:We need more players who are able to train day on day in order to close the gap between us and Australia, who are number one in the world, and if we want more golds, we have to make a difference there, and I don't think it's been through anyone's fault. I don't. I think it's just where the sport's been and you know you scratch your surface. I know every head coach. I know what it's like, because they'll be wearing a million hats. They're going to be the commercial director, the finance manager, the player agent, the head coach.
Jess Thirlby:Um, you can't be all those things and and do them consistently well, nor should we expect people to sustain that. So I think if we can get the infrastructure right in those environments yes, we've gone down to fewer teams in the hope that that quality we can service those players more appropriately so that they feel enabled to train, more importantly, recover, and therefore the quality of that product will be more appealing for the commercial entities and the investors that we need to come into the sport. So, yeah, I think it's definitely symbiotic and hopefully that's the way in which we can continue to work together, because one without the other really can't be successful, and I'm really excited about, hopefully over the next few years, how that will play out.
Sue Anstiss:And I recently joined the London Mavericks on the board, as you know, very exciting one of the eight franchises in the new Netball Super League and it has been a real eye-opener for me, seeing from a coach's perspective. You've mentioned there really that balance of having these professional players who are also representing England and wanting a cohesive, competitive team but knowing they need to be out at camp or on tour and so on, and clearly you have experienced an element of that yourself in terms of managing teams in the past. Men's sport has been through some of those journeys and that kind of challenges of learning that I know rugby's recently relaunched their new professional game partnership to kind of overcome that the tugging of both sides, isn't it almost the professional game teams themselves and the national side as well too? So so I wonder, what lessons do you feel women's sport and obviously, as you mentioned, your husband was a professional rugby player Are there lessons that the women's game can learn from other men's sports in that way?
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, it's a really good question and I don't know how helpful it would be to make comparisons between women's sport and men's sport, because I just feel like in lots of ways we're so different. You know, like women's sport and the growth of women's sport in more recent times in this modern era is significant and yet when men's professional well, the professional era for men in a lot of those sports is such a long time ago, I'm not sure how helpful it would be to compare to the men's game. Of course there's always learnings to be had. I think we might be better off as a community in women's sport talking about how we're growing the game in each of our respective areas and what we're seeing as being the greatest successes and where we're having biggest impact. You know like WSL will be going through some of their decision-making and even around you know, having two leagues, no relegation, like I think there's most probably more commonality to speak women to women around growing our game and the collective game than there is most probably with making comparisons to men's game, for which have enjoyed professionalization for such a long time. They're almost going through iterations of that, as you say, where they're having to pay more attention to it. So, yeah, I think it's just really important that we capture what works really well, because I think I often speak to people about how netball when people come to games we're really accessible. People and fans love how accessible the players are and you don't want to lose some of those things in the intent to professionalise the game. So I think it would be really healthy for us to continue to speak with each other actually around why we're doing what we've done. We know we've chosen to obviously go to fewer teams in Super League at this stage, hopefully in order to grow the game and the quality and depth of it in years to come, whereas WSL are taking different decisions for different rationale, and I think that might be where it's more helpful to have the conversation around professionalization.
Jess Thirlby:But ultimately, the challenge, as you say, between club and country no sport is immune to that. The challenge we've got is we've also got a professional domestic game overseas part of that picture and we play at different times of the year, so it's not simply a club and country issue. In england we're dealing with a lot of factors which don't align and that means that there's always a degree of tension. But I also think we focus a lot on the downside of those things where I think there is also huge opportunity. So, whilst it's not ideal at the moment that we're trying to accommodate an SSN competition window with our own domestic window, with an international window you know it is messy, there's no doubt about it, it's really messy.
Jess Thirlby:But then I think actually if we we flip it and we see the opportunity, you know, time spent, hopefully with roses sends players back at a higher physical level, technically and tactically more prepared for the season ahead with their clubs. Because the demand of the international game is always going to be different to what the club teams need to prepare them for. It's just inevitable. We're ultimately trying to prepare a group of players to play eight games in nine days and win a gold on the last day of the tournament. The clubs aren't needing to do that. So there's always going to be a need for us to have a programme and an environment that prepares them for those very unique differences between the international game.
Jess Thirlby:But that doesn't mean that we don't equally benefit from the week-on-week training environments of eight nsl clubs who are going to become increasingly professionalized. Of course that's huge benefit to us. So I think it's just understanding how, in the short term? Do we balance out those things where it feels quite uh, there's a tension between that and I remember having this conversation. I was fortunate enough to meet with Gareth and you know, the FA not long ago and we're really all talking and dealing with the same challenges. I'm sure Serena Beekman has the same challenges. I work with man City women and I hear the same challenges there. So I think actually what would be great, as if netball, can we be the best at navigating that challenge, rather than sitting in the same space and just almost complaining about it, like, let's work out what can we do for our domestic game, what does the domestic game do for us, and how can we complement those environments for the greater good of those athletes and, ultimately, the sport?
Sue Anstiss:You mentioned men and men's sport there. What are your thoughts on men's netball? I know one of my co-owners, one of the co-owners of London Mavericks, is very keen on the growth of the men's game. Feels that's the way that we're going to get men to take netball more seriously, to invest in netball if they begin to know and understand it more.
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, in my role I've embraced our national men's team and men in our environment throughout my time in the role. That's obviously quite specific. That's around what they add to our training intensity and the style by which we play. It's been brilliant for us as a Roses team. I would always hope that our sport is as inclusive as it can be. So I think not just men's netball, but any player or person should feel like netball has a place and a space for them.
Jess Thirlby:I think it's difficult when we start talking about growing the game with that parity for men and women, because I think we shouldn't shy away from what I believe one of our greatest strengths is we're unapologetically female focused and actually that's something that's quite unique to us over women's rugby and women's football and those other sports.
Jess Thirlby:So I wouldn't want us to lose sight of that in our efforts to want to be seen and heard and invested in. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want it to lose sight of that in our efforts to want to be seen and heard and invested in. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want it to be inclusive, that I don't think that there's room and space for the men's game to grow. I just think we're not quite there yet. I don't believe in terms of the investment in the women's game of netball, which is female focused, and I think we should shout about that and that's okay, and I think let's grow that game to then benefit the growth more broadly, which can and should include men and children. You know, disability, sport within netball, all of those avenues should feel as though netball is for them.
Sue Anstiss:And sadly, across all sports, we don't see enough women coaching at the highest, highest level. So there are many barriers. We could do another whole podcast on that, couldn't we? But clearly, balancing the demands of family life and caring is one of those, and you've got three children, I believe. So how have you navigated that balance? As national team coaching, you're travelling, you're away a lot of time as well, too. How do you balance that?
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because I've read something recently and somebody already told me about there's no such thing as work-life balance. It's work-life integration, and I've kind of like held on to that, I think, to justify the amount of time that I am away. But I think when you're lucky to do something that you're really passionate about, it is kind of like there is no kind of like black and white. It's intertwined and I think that's been really important for me for obviously the children to feel very much part of it and included. But it's definitely difficult, it's challenging.
Jess Thirlby:I think any parent or mum or working mum for a lot of people I've spoken to there's always that element of guilt and I think managing that's really tricky. But when I first fell pregnant with Olivia so I have a stepdaughter and then Olivia and George and when I first fell pregnant, a lot of my peers at the time or colleagues were like you're going to have to slow down, you are going to have to stop. Well, I went into labor, having been at the bath store cupboard sorting out the balls and pumping them up the night before till like 10pm. So there wasn't really any slowing down and I came back quite quickly. That's my choice, I think at the time I flew out to South Africa with an England under 21 side and then with George I was on a plane to Jamaica supporting the national team. And those were choices that I made because I realised that it makes me a better person to pursue something that I'm really passionate about and hopefully has made me a better parent. But that doesn't mean that I'm not riddled with guilt most days around something that I can't make or I can't attend, or missing my daughter's birthday the last three years because I've been overseas.
Jess Thirlby:It is quite stressful and I'm not sure if our sport is yet set up to really embrace parenthood and motherhood, and I think that makes it difficult because you don't it's not a criticism of anyone or anything, it's just you don't always feel worthy of asking for support. Or you know my family can't travel with me to places, or you know my family can't travel with me to places. It's impossible and we're just not set up to accommodate that like a you know, a cricket family would do, or we don't have the money and I just don't think we've yet set ourselves up. I think we've had some really lovely success stories over recent years, you know, with an Ebony coming to the Commonwealth Games and Savannah coming with her, and obviously I come from a place where I am a parent, so that was important for me. But I think there's a lot more that we can do in that space, because it is really tricky and it has felt more like it's an either-or and it does feel like a big sacrifice.
Jess Thirlby:But I'm not alone and I'm really lucky that Rob understands sport. They're all very, very proud, you know, when they're at the Games and they're in South Africa watching the team win a silver medal. Of course it's worth it and it's a moment in time, isn't it? But you can't also get that time back with your children, and I'm very cognizant of that. You know I would have been in this role, hopefully, for eight years and that would have been quite an important part of their life. But rather than see it as a sacrifice, I'd like to think that it's added something to them as as children and hopefully in their their adult life to come. Albeit, they've got a very tired mum most of the time.
Sue Anstiss:It's interesting as well that piece that you said around the, where we put that support around being an unapologetically female sport as well too that there is perhaps a chance to break new ground and to show what can be done there in the future.
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, definitely, and you know it's really heartwarming. When we were away, I think, playing Australia this year, you know, george's teacher at school offered to put it on TV for him at break time and Libby's PE department are like let's put it on for you, just come and watch it in the office. So, yeah, I think it's moments like that. That I think, okay, I feel like I've got more permission to do it, but I still think it's yeah, I still think it's tricky and, as you say, female focused. We should expect to provide better support over time. But I think that's coming and I think we've had some really great examples and for a long time, you know, netball didn't have many stories to tell around players that had children and come back to play, and we have had some great pioneers do that in recent years. So, yeah, I'm very proud of those.
Sue Anstiss:I love the picture of your kids going in to watch their mum sat really seriously on the bench and getting whatever from afar.
Jess Thirlby:I've given up on trying to be more mindful of what my facials look like in the game. There's no point.
Sue Anstiss:There's just no point and finally, to wrap up, you've obviously committed to another World Cup cycle with the Fatality Roses, which is amazing and fantastic for us as fans, and players too. But beyond that, where do you go to from that, having been a head coach of England?
Jess Thirlby:Yeah, it's a really good question and I'm not going to give you a very satisfying answer, most probably.
Jess Thirlby:I'm so immersed in the next two years.
Jess Thirlby:You know, two big competitions, thankfully a Commonwealth Games scotland which is incredible close to home, and netball really kind of leading the way on team sport and we're super grateful for that and then a world cup, which I've been thinking about since the day after the last one.
Jess Thirlby:So I haven't really paid much attention to career after that. Right, you're wrongly, but, um, you know, I made my decision when I left team bath with no particular intention to move straight into another role, albeit that I love coaching and that played out okay. So I'm gonna most probably take a bit of a leap of faith, stay resolute and give my all to the team currently for the next couple of years in pursuit of that gold medal. And then, yeah, I may be closer to the time I can think about that question and come back to you. You can, you can interview me again and say and, and I'll be like, oh, but yeah, I'm just, I'm so fortunate and very privileged to be in the role for a second cycle. It's it's very rare if, if done at all, I think so it's allowed for real continuity and the players are so focused and determined to go one better. So, yeah, they deserve my full attention on that.
Sue Anstiss:How lovely to have the chance to speak to Jess at such an exciting time for the game in this country, if that was your passion. The other elite players who have been guests on the podcast, as I mentioned, include Pamela Cookie, serena Guthrie and Leila Gusguth, along with those now leading the sport Sue Campbell, jo Coates and Liz Nicol, if it's female trailblazers in sport that you're after. There are, in fact, over 200 episodes of the Game Changers that are all free to listen to on podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. My guests have included Olympians, paralympians and World Champions, along with coaches, entrepreneurs, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs all women who are changing the game in sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 10,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us.
Sue Anstiss:The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thanks once again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective through a National Lottery Award, and to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such an incredible job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my lovely colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. You can find the Game Changers on all podcast platforms, so do follow us now and you won't miss out on future episodes. Come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me at Sue Anstis, the Game Changers. Fearless women in sport.
