The Game Changers

Lucy Wray: Building Culture, Driving Change and Backing Women’s Sport

• Sue Anstiss • Season 19 • Episode 6

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Lucy Wray: Building Culture, Driving Change and Backing Women’s Sport

"Sport is this incredible rollercoaster of winning, losing, learning and bonding — I don’t think anything else creates that kind of magic."

This week on The Game Changers, Sue Anstiss is joined by Lucy Wray – an inspiring and influential leader in sport whose journey spans elite performance, business innovation and transformative change.

A former Wales lacrosse captain with over 70 international caps, Lucy’s early experiences as an athlete have shaped her deep understanding of team culture and what it takes to succeed at the highest level. 

As Group CEO of Saracens from 2020 to 2024, Lucy led the club through one of its most turbulent periods – navigating relegation, the salary cap scandal and a global pandemic, all while pregnant. Her reflections on resilience, leadership and staying true to your values in the face of crisis are both powerful and profoundly honest.

Now as an investor, co-owner of London Mavericks Netball and board member of the Netball Super League, Lucy shares her bold vision for the growth of professional women’s sport. With a rare mix of commercial acumen and heartfelt purpose, Lucy speaks about building sustainable business models, creating inclusive, player-first cultures and investing in women’s sport not just as a commercial opportunity – but as a force for social change.

Whether she’s talking about building businesses, empowering athletes or creating unforgettable matchday experiences, Lucy’s story is one of courage, creativity and an unshakeable belief in the power of sport to do good.

This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about the future of sport, the rise of women’s sport and what it truly means to lead with purpose.

 

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Sue Anstiss:

Hello and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore key issues around equality in sport and beyond? A huge thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support the game changers through a National Lottery Award. I'm so pleased to be talking to Lucy Wray today. Lucy is a much experienced sports leader who is dedicated to shaping the future of women's sport.

Sue Anstiss:

Lucy was group CEO of Saracens from 2020 to 2024, steering the organisation through the men's relegation to the Championship, covid and a capital raise, and brought the club back to the place where both the men's and women were champions of England. In 2024, Lucy became the co-owner of London Mavericks Netball, one of eight franchises playing in the new Netball Super League. This has also held an array of board positions across sport, including the Saracens Group, Premiership Rugby, Premiership Women's Rugby, the eSports Awards, which she co-owns with her husband, Benchmark Sports, and Netball Super League. Lucy was also a very successful female athlete who captained the Wales lacrosse team, playing in three World Cups, and has had over 70 international caps to her name. So, Lucy, should we start with lacrosse? That's something I didn't know about you until you're obviously very humble because you haven't really talked about that. I wasn't aware of that, but was that always the sport for you, and what did you love about it?

Lucy Wray:

Yeah, I think it started at school. I went to a lacrosse playing school. There aren't actually that many lacrosse playing schools and I guess it was. I was at a pretty academic school and I was never kind of the top 25 academic, but actually sport I suddenly found I could be not not the best, but in the top 25. So when you kind of get that slight recognition, you know, like it really kind of instills in you that kind of desire. I think I've always been very competitive and very driven, probably got that from my mama and dad. So, yes, I think there's. I just love the game of lacrosse.

Lucy Wray:

My body was very broken after three world cups so I had to stop. I ruptured my ACL and I had a disc bulge and all sorts of things, but otherwise I'd keep playing now but it's as close as I got to playing professional sport, although it was completely amateur. But going on tours to America and seeing you know American sport, american college sport, is incredible. So yeah, it just lit something inside me and I loved it and I think my dad watched every single lacrosse match I ever played in oh. I went to Bristol University and he used to drive to Bristol from London every Wednesday afternoon to watch me play don't let me tell my kids that, because they're at university now and we don't always get down for all of their games. So, uh, he set a very high bar there, didn't he?

Lucy Wray:

He has, and now we've got to deliver the same for our kids.

Sue Anstiss:

I'm What going to be on the road a lot, I think and what other sports did you enjoy so obviously you found lacrosse at school, but were you an athlete across many other sports as well?

Lucy Wray:

of county tennis and I threw the javelin and I did a bit of county cricket as well. So I did multiple different sports and my family sports mad. My grandmother was the Danish junior tennis champion and my grandfather was a scratch golfer, played cricket and rugby when I was young and so I kind of grew up around the teams and always being a cricket club or the rugby club on a Saturday or Sunday throwing a ball around the whole time. I was a bit of a tomboy so I was like never in dresses. I was always covered in mud doing something.

Sue Anstiss:

And do you think if rugby had been more prevalent in your school at the time, do you think rugby would have been a sport that you would have played?

Lucy Wray:

I definitely. I tried rugby in my teenage years when my dad first got involved with Saracen. I actually went to a few women's sessions and when I went to Bristol University I tried it again. I think I was a bit I was so in love with lacrosse that I was always going to be the winner, but I definitely tried it. I'm not sure I was brave enough to take the hits, to be honest. Yeah, I think it's a great game. I loved it. I always loved throwing a rugby ball around and learning how to do a spin pass off both hands and all of that. So maybe if it had been bigger and in schools it would have been uh, it would have been an option for me.

Sue Anstiss:

I do reflect on that myself, but as my kids keep telling me I don't think I was, I wasn't brave enough. It was just starting at Loughborough when I was there. I think I wasn't brave enough. I'm not sure I'm brave enough? I don't know although you played lacrosse, and that's a pretty scary physical sport at times too, isn't it?

Sue Anstiss:

yeah, you do get bruised arms a lot in lacrosse you mentioned there that your family been involved in Saracen since 1995 when your dad first invested in the club and you were still in school at the time. So how much was the club and rugby a part of your life growing up?

Lucy Wray:

It very quickly became a big part of our lives. I remember as a little girl well, actually I was a little girl, I was about 15-16 but we started kind of as a whole family going to the Saracens games every weekend. And I know my granny when she was alive, granny Ray, she kind of became the universal Granny Ray for the whole Saracens team. So we kind of it just became part of our extended family, so all the players and their families and the staff. Very, very quickly we became like this giant kind of family and it was really special and at the time it was exciting.

Lucy Wray:

It was the dawn of professionalism and you had players like Francois Pienaar, philippe Seller and Michael Liner, kieran Bracken, richard Hill, like all of these, and you were kind of, you know, riding this wave of excitement with them because the game was changing so quickly. You know riding this wave of excitement with them because the game was changing so quickly. And I just remember being part of that. You know 17, 18, it was just, yeah, I loved it. It was like the best investment my dad had ever made, in my opinion at that age.

Sue Anstiss:

I'm interested because you mentioned and I know we'll talk a lot about your dad and his support, but in terms of your mum's support and your mum's involved in support of him within Saracens and her kind of impact on you and your life, then yeah, my mum's an amazing woman.

Lucy Wray:

I think I get all my inner strength from her because actually my dad tries to avoid conflict at all costs, whereas my mum will hit it straight on. So I think I kind of get a fair and she's also ultra competitive. So I definitely get a lot of that from her. But she was like very much part of the journey. She came to every game, loved it as much as it was a very and even now today going to the Saracens games is like a big family thing, like we have a box at Stonehenge Stadium, but it's just full of kids, full of family, cousins, like aunts, uncles, friends. It's never been a kind of corporate thing for us, it's just a nice way every weekend to be together.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah, that's so true. I was very lucky to come and join you before Christmas actually for one of the games there, and I absolutely felt that I came away and said I've never been in a box like it and the fact that there was family and kids and it just felt very like you were a lovely family party and then we got to watch amazing rugby as well too. So, yeah, I definitely felt that from being there. Did seeing your dad involved at Saracens inspire you and your brother to want to work in in the sports sector when you were young, or was it just a kind of felt like a natural part of life?

Lucy Wray:

Both my mum and dad have both taught us the importance of kind of caring for people, putting people first, investing in great people, and that's what he's brilliant at. He's brilliant at finding great people and backing them for the long term to create successful businesses. So I remember he was like Saracens was his sounds wrong, but it was his hobby, it was his passion, but it wasn't his business. His business was, you know, investing in Domino's Pizza and properties and Telco and you know all manner of different things.

Lucy Wray:

My brother and I have that kind of desire to build businesses and run businesses, but we also have the passion of sport. So we've both just been lucky enough to kind of combine the two in terms of I think we love the performance side of force but we equally love the business side of sport and that's what my particular passion is, that real business side of sport. So obviously I absolutely love the performance environment. I loved it when I played lacrosse but I equally love everything off the pitch, off the court. You know, building the brand, building a sustainable economic model, bringing in sponsors.

Lucy Wray:

You know how do you grow your social platform, everything that for me and I think you know, our parents kind of gave us both, and then we were just so lucky to have grown up with all these amazing sporting talents around us. So when I was seven we had a young Australian cricketer come and live with us, who was Justin Langer, who turned out to be like one of the best Australian cricketers he lived with us for he was like my big brother, because he lived with us for three summers and then he came back with his wife and then his daughter worked for our events business for a few years and we've kind of followed his career. People who've, you know, reached the very top of their careers and been so successful and high performing has been, I guess, an incredible privilege along the way.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned that you're at Bristol University, but you studied languages at university, so what was your ambition when you went there? Was that a vocational thing that you thought you might do more in in the space of languages?

Lucy Wray:

you're shaking your head um, I think I was. I can't remember you told me this, but someone said to me that you should just pick something at university that you love, and it doesn't really matter where it might lead. You know, just do something you love that. And I just happen to have an incredibly good French teacher at school, and you know, some teachers can really inspire you. I just loved my French teacher and yeah, so I kind of went through languages not thinking I'd ever have a career in languages. It was just I, you know, wanted to go to Bristol University, enjoy university life, and I chose something I was really loved and didn't really think about career from it, though I don't think that ever crossed my mind.

Sue Anstiss:

And what were your first roles out of university? Where did you go to from there?

Lucy Wray:

So I went to an events business, mainly corporate events. I like that. I'm quite bit of a perfectionist, I'm quite like detailed and I want everything done a certain way. So that kind of suited me in terms of the organization. I'm quite a people person so that kind of came easy to me in terms of building those relationships and being kind of, you know, front of things and chatting away to people. So that I kind of went down the events route.

Lucy Wray:

But I think at the time I had the opportunity to try and get into the 2005 Lacrosse World Cup team. So I was really training pretty hard to get into that and so I got into that. And then the next four years I was kind of doing the events, but part-time but training, and I obviously very privileged to be able to do that and to be able to take my sport, because there's obviously no funding in those days. You paid five or six thousand pounds for the privilege of going to the lacrosse world cup. But it was just amazing that I could get to do that and I had I ruptured my ACL at the time. It was awful when I was 16 or 17 actually I think that was the kind of making of me because my dad had just got involved in Saracen. So he kind of asked the Saracen's team like where, where should Lucy have her knee done? And how rehab? And there was a great strength and conditioning trainer who basically took me under his wing and I think I'd always been good at sport because I've got good hand-eye coordination but I'd never been like that fit or that agile. That never come that naturally to me. But through that rehab I became I became a proper athlete because I had someone who really knew and in those days, like women's sport, you just didn't get that level of expertise. There was just nothing there. So in terms of I was just so lucky that my rehab and strength and conditioning then was just so good that it made me into a. I think I got the very best out my capability as a lacrosse player. So, yes, I loved that the world cup in 2005 and then 2009 and 2013 and then I stopped. But so I was. I think lacrosse was really dominant in more than career for that. Until I was about kind of 28, lacrosse is everything. And then I bought a small events company called nbn events and which my brother now owns, so it's kind of passed through. We did like rugby world cup dinners and rider cup lunches and, uh, sporting speaker of the year, things like that. So all events using kind of all of our kind of corporate relationships, but centered around sport. Yeah, yeah, so we built that and it's a. It's a really good little business still today.

Lucy Wray:

And um, and then I think you mentioned in the intro, my husband and I founded the esports awards, which tom takes all the credit for because he's done all the hard work. But, um, we started it in london and now it's been to texas, vegas, and um, now it's in riad and all of these things have kind of you learn so much just in different industries and different things, how they work. I mean, the esports world is incredible in terms of how they've harnessed audience growth and digital and social and influences etc. So how you learn that and apply a bit of that to traditional sport. And yeah, I just, I think I find that I just find the whole business world of sport fascinating for me that's really interesting and we're going to come on to talk about London Mavericks in a minute.

Sue Anstiss:

But I know, having sat in board meetings with you and here, that you're bringing in all that expertise and awareness of what's happening at the cutting edge of other sports too, and that is an amazing place to be able to kind of coalesce all that skills and knowledge, as you say, across other sports and other sectors too.

Lucy Wray:

I think I'm really lucky that as a family and dad's invested in. You know like tens of tens 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s of different businesses, all from different sectors. So you know and you just learn from each one, whether they're consumer, you know pharmaceuticals, like you. Just you're constantly and that's where I think my dad's been really good at kind of he probably sends us both like 10 emails a day about different businesses, just updates. So like this is happening, this is happening. So you just you're kind of like it's just an incredible learning journey that constantly, the whole time. Yeah, and he does sometimes check that we're opening all the emails, but we do.

Sue Anstiss:

So, from that work in the event space space, you then took on a variety of leadership roles at Saracens and in 2020 you became CEO and, as I mentioned in the instruction, it's quite a tough time for the club. It had just been found guilty of breaching premiership salary cap in the previous three years and the men's team would then be relegated to the championship the following year. So how did it feel to be taking over as CEO? It was difficult time for the club, yeah it was incredibly difficult.

Lucy Wray:

I think I maybe assumed the role of CEO by default because nobody else wanted to do it at the time and I'm not looking at I'm not sure anyone thought I could do it. But actually one of the things I'm most motivated by is proving people wrong. So if someone says I can't do it, I really then go out of my way to make sure I can do it. But I mean it had been so that the club obviously still is. But it was such a big, you know, part of our lives for so long by that stage, and not just the club but you know the Saracens High School and the Saracens Foundation and like the whole community and the fans and stuff, and obviously you know dad had kind of poured his heart and soul into it by then for two decades. So obviously I was highly motivated to make sure we got through it, we survived it, so so that was a kind of huge I think. If you have that level of motivation it's quite powerful. I was six months pregnant at the time, which added another level of complication, but I had five or six people around me who were just incredible, who really stepped up and kind of really kind of put like relentless hard work into it. So it wasn't just me, it was this kind of trusted team of like war room people who kind of really got together and then, obviously, covid hit. So we took this massive fine.

Lucy Wray:

The club was in turmoil, we were relegated and then covid hit. So it was. It was. It was kind of strange, though, but because we'd been relegated and we were in a massive crisis already, we'd already planned for COVID without knowing it.

Lucy Wray:

So we were actually in probably a stronger place than a lot of the other premiership clubs, because when it hit we'd already done all the. Do we cut costs? How do we survive this year? How do we then come out the other side? And and I think for me, when I became CEO, it's quite a unique. I was in quite a unique position because I already had like decades of friendship and relationships with the players and coaches and staff, so we already had quite a like deep level of trust and at that time, when there was just so much like literally there was a fire to put out every four days there was another fire it was just relentless and I think having, you know, that depth of relationship with all the key people was very powerful and I'm not sure we would have got it, got through it, if we hadn't had such and we'd already been through so much like success and failure together that you kind of that it's just another battle to get through together.

Sue Anstiss:

As you said, you almost weren't expected to be taking that role. Did you feel the pressure to behave in a certain way when you came in as CEO, or were you able to manage the club in your own style?

Lucy Wray:

No, I didn't. I think I mean it was a really steep learning curve. You know you're dealing with crisis comms. We were like taking up two pages of the sports press every single day really much for six months. So it was at the time. You're just as a rugby club. You're not equipped really to deal with that. You just don't have the expertise or the knowledge of club. You're not equipped really to deal with that. You just don't have the expertise or the knowledge of.

Lucy Wray:

So it was, it was very, very difficult to kind of navigate through that and I think the things I learned were you know, just, you double down on your, on your values and your kind of moral compass, and for us it was like we've always been a people first club, people's caring for our people.

Lucy Wray:

So let's put our people first. Let's try and we probably didn't get this right all the time but try and communicate as much as possible, even if it was not good news. So have really honest conversations, even if it was kind of you're telling them stuff they really don't want to hear, but just communicate, communicate, communicate and and, yeah, just I think having that war room of trusted people to get through it, it was really just making sure we had people at the core of every decision making, like our people it was. In some ways, we have to just put a little bubble around us and just get through it together and just kind of shut out all the noise from the outside world. We made a lot of mistakes through that period, but I think we learned pretty quickly as well.

Sue Anstiss:

And I have met some of the team that might be the team in the core war room, as you mentioned that worked with you when you were CEO at Saracens, and I've only heard positive things about them, about the culture that you created, not just at that level, that pervaded the whole club really. So for you personally, what's your lead leadership style? How would you go about creating a culture that impacts the whole organization?

Lucy Wray:

I think um culture for me is it's like a set of behaviors, so it's a collective of individual behaviors, and and so therefore, for me, culture is people, and I think there's a phrase, there's a quote that my dad's always liked a lot and taught me, which is people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So I think we've been very good at putting people first and really really caring for them Almost. So you kind of a culture is like a family, so everyone can be themselves. You have that sense of you know, security, honesty, you have each other's back.

Lucy Wray:

I think great cultures are always evolving. They're always trying to get better. We never wanted to be complacent as well, so we'd kind of experienced a lot of success, but we just we'd never wanted to be complacent. So it's like how do you get better? How do you get better? How do you improve?

Lucy Wray:

I think, in terms of my style of leadership, I would I'd say it's definitely evolved and I probably have adapted quite a lot. But I think centrally to it, I kind of I try to live my values and how I behave like 24 7. You can't ever have a bad day really, because you know you speak to someone badly, or you don't value someone's opinion or you know, and that is just so. It's so damaging to a culture just to have one day, one bad day. So I think you've got to have one day, one bad day. So I think you've got to, as a leader, that the fish thinks from the head, that everything comes down from the top. So you can't have a great culture if you don't have great people at the top who are really living and breathing those values of putting people first and caring for people. But I think that doesn't mean you have to be soft. You've got to have honest conversations. But sometimes those conversations are really tough, like telling someone who's been part of the club for 15 years that it's time to move on. I mean, that's a really tough conversation but you've got to have it.

Lucy Wray:

I think you've got to be quite disciplined in decision-making, quite focused. You've got to know exactly. You've got to have very good attention to detail At times. You know you can't make decisions by committee all the time. You've got to make the decision. You know you've got to take accountability for those decisions and I think I've learned. You know you've always got to have your team's backs. So you know I always I would. I would like to think I always kind of took responsibility for something that went wrong. Ultimately, you're at the top. So if someone has made a mistake, a, it's a mistake. They've not done it on purpose, so you ought to help them learn from that mistake. But b ultimately it's your fault because they maybe then weren't equipped to deal with that situation on their own, or so I. I guess that's my, I don't know.

Sue Anstiss:

I haven't been very succinct, but around the house, it's no, yeah, no, but all such, all such useful and important stuff, isn't it? And I, I think at the time, I think you were one of only two female CEOs of premiership clubs at the time and and obviously it was a very male environment of professional rugby. So was that a challenge for you as a woman, and not say a young, relatively young woman in that role too? How did you kind of navigate those pressures, or did you feel there were pressures?

Lucy Wray:

um, yeah, I mean it was definitely when I first became CEO. I was also joining the kind of investor board calls which were 100% male. I also. I mean there were a few of them that my mum and I used to giggle because it was during COVID, so everything was on Zoom, but obviously I'd had my camera off, but quite a few of them I was breastfeeding because I had a newborn baby, and we always used to laugh thinking God, can you imagine if they knew what was going on behind this camera.

Lucy Wray:

But it definitely took me quite a bit of time to build up the confidence to have a voice. I think it's quite intimidating, so you have to work really hard to gain their respect. But I think once you've got their respect, then it's a great environment. I didn't, you know, I think it was. I probably had to change my language slightly. I would be more of a kind of collaborative type language. So, oh, what do we think of this and do you think we could do it a different way, whereas I felt you had to be much more direct and much more. I think this, this is not the way I would go. I would go this way.

Lucy Wray:

There was definitely. I learned to change my language in certain situations and be much more kind of forceful and direct, and I think I I kind of, whenever there was a investor board call meeting or I'd always get the agenda and basically revise for it like an exam. So I'd like just take every, every kind of point on the agenda and made sure I spoke to a broadcast expert or someone on there so I knew exactly what was it. It's probably like my geeky education and being a good student, but I think that then gave me confidence that actually I knew a lot more. I'd done a lot more homework, I knew exactly what I was talking about. So then I kind of, you know, found my voice to say no, that's not right. You know, that's not what. Like the market's saying that's not what's happening in our sports, this is where we should be going. So I think that that kind of helped me as well that's really interesting.

Sue Anstiss:

I spoke to Jo Coates on the podcast um, yeah, from when she was at netball, but she'd obviously worked a lot in football before and we talked about that and her piece was exactly that over preparation for board meetings to go in and know you know absolutely everything, to give you that confidence to find your voice, which is sad. But if that helps other women moving forward to hear that and know that enables them to gain that confidence to um yeah, I.

Lucy Wray:

I would say, though, that, even once you gain their respect, it's a very, it's a great environment to be in. I found it a great environment to be in, yeah, you know, after a year or so, or maybe it was two, but they, you know, they'd be like oh Lucy, what do you think? And I was like oh yes, I've got it, I've made it, I'm good, someone values my opinion and you're.

Sue Anstiss:

You've also been a huge supporter of women's rugby, both at Saracens, but you're also a director of the PWR, the Women's Rugby Premiership, and it's initiated, and I'm interested in your thoughts on rugby generally. But with the Women's Rugby World Cup taking place this autumn, how hopeful and excited are you about the opportunities across women's rugby right?

Lucy Wray:

now I think women's rugby, especially in England, is riding the crest of a wave. Especially, I mean, the RFU have been exceptionally good at being the first mover advantage and investing in the women's team and the Red Roses and likewise having the first professional club league. So you've kind of got that advantage over the rest of the world to. You know, hopefully, the red roses, you know their favorites and there's it's very easy to say your favorites and then actually go on to win it. But there could be this incredible moment next September if they go on and do that and you have got some big stars of the game more so really in the women's game that are really coming through as big personalities, like Ellie Kildan and obviously Alona Meyer, and I think that's only brilliant for the women's rugby. And also I read actually in the Times today that there's now a black market for women's rugby World Cup tickets where they're trying to sell tickets at like 10 times the value, and so the world rugby are trying to sell tickets at like 10 times the value, and so the the world rugby are trying to crack down on it. But that's actually brilliant because it's obviously not great, but brilliant in a certain way in that you only get that kind of black market, something that's actually valuable and in demand and people want to go to. So from that perspective it's brilliant.

Lucy Wray:

I guess my only is rugby, club rugby, international rugby. I think there's just a lack of investment in the game, and the problem for women's rugby is that the club level is the same, owners it's the same clubs, it's the same people and whilst there's pressure, there's big pressure on the economic model and the financial sustainability of it all. It's therefore whether you have the rightness is that there aren't the right building blocks in place to really capitalize on what could explode. You know you've got to. You've got to get women's rugby in schools, playing in schools. You know, all schools, state primary, it's a big, big grassroots participation. You have to utilize this moment and that that will be absolutely key to get right. Hopefully we will get it right it's interesting, isn't it?

Sue Anstiss:

on that ownership piece. I was listening today to maggie murphy on unexpected goals podcast. I give them a plug, another podcast plug on this podcast, but talking about that, that every WSL club now is owned by a premier league club and so there isn't that independence, that opportunity to do things and shape things that are solely focused. And obviously you've got the Lionesses, london Lionesses, in the championship. That do have that, a couple of other clubs too. But how, in terms of the PWR and women's professional rugby, how much do you think those clubs should be emulating what we've seen in premiership rugby on the men's side, or is there an opportunity to do things very differently and create more potential across the women's game?

Lucy Wray:

I think they've got to do things differently. They can't follow the men's model because the men's model doesn't work. It's not an economic model that is financially sustainable, and I think that's one of the things the men's game is struggling with at the moment and wrestling with is how you know, and also the the broadcast market's completely changing. You're not gonna get big checks from broadcasters, you know. Necessarily in the future you've got to tell a completely different narrative. I think you know women's rugby's rugby, has to really think outside the box and think very carefully about where they go next and how they capitalise on next year at club level, and I strongly believe it needs to be look and feel very, very different to where the men's game's gone.

Sue Anstiss:

We could do a whole podcast on that. We can come back and talk to you again on that one. We could yeah, we could. So, along with rugby, you're also doing a huge amount in netball. You're co-owner of the London Mavericks and you also sit on the board of the Netball Super League and I'm, as mentioned earlier, incredibly proud to be on your board at London Mavericks. But just going back, what was it that inspired you and Olivia Hall to invest in London Mavericks?

Lucy Wray:

Firstly, I was incredibly lucky to meet Olivia, or to be introduced to Olivia, and she was at the time incredibly passionate about the perception of women and girls and raising the standard and treatment of women and girls more generally, and she believes passionately that women's sport can be a massive lever for that. And so we were introduced because I kind of knew a bit about women's sport and we just got on. So that was just a very fortunate meeting for us both. But in terms of Mavericks, I think we both looked at it. We weren't we obviously we passionate about sport. We weren't actually passionate netballers or netball fans or so, which I think was actually quite good because we looked at it through a very almost dispassionate like kind of angle.

Lucy Wray:

In terms of actually the raw materials of netball and the and the foundations of netball as a sport to turn professional are really quite compelling because you've got this massive participation base. You know it's. It's bigger than men's and women's rugby put together. I think it's still three or four times bigger than girls football. It's huge. It's played in every school. Everyone you speak to has some connection to netball. Either they've played it or the daughter plays it, or, and so you know you've got this huge untapped potential which a lot of sports don't have. So that was a big kind of tick. In terms of taking it professional, it's actually a relatively low cost base because you just have 10 players in your netball super league squad. So it's not like rugby or cricket or football where you need much, much bigger squads, sometimes being able to pay players, put a really good performance environment around them. It's a kind of lower cost entry point to other team sport.

Lucy Wray:

It's quite unique in that it's a female-led sport, so it's much bigger than the men's game, although we'd love to see men's netball get bigger because we kind of believe that's really important for the sport as a whole. So for all those things we felt actually women's sports going on this massive growth trajectory. So you know it's growing exponentially. Over the next 10 years it's going to be the biggest growth area for sport in general. So women's sport great Netball yes, huge participation, untapped, low-cost space, sport in general. So women's sport great Netball yes, huge participation, untapped, low cost space. And London I think London was important for us as well. So for all of those reasons, and then you kind of actually, so you're kind of using your head to make those investment decisions and then very, very quickly, your heart's completely evolved as well.

Sue Anstiss:

And what surprised you most in terms of owning and running a netball club in comparison to owning a rugby club, and I know the obviously the difference in the history and the size of. But what have been some of the key differences there you've seen in this first year?

Lucy Wray:

I think you know the netball is very much like a like any small startup business. You know you've got very limited resource, you've got people who are having to wear seven different hats and be, you know, spin about 10 different plates and it's really fast moving and I love all that. So I love that environment. In that respect it's not different to any kind of startup. You know, small business where you're building a brand and you're building an audience and you're trying to're building a brand and you're building an audience and you're trying to maximize your revenue growth and you're putting in all the like, foundations and pillars to do that, whilst also you know setting up your performance environment. But actually the performance environment is big, not the easy bit, but the bit that actually, if you've got the right people, happens quite quickly and, as I said, if you put people and player welfare at the center of that, can be really powerful. So it's more the business side which takes a bit of time.

Lucy Wray:

But in terms of netball and rugby they're not hugely dissimilar in terms of you know there's always more calls on your capital than capital available. So it's always this difficulty of kind of weighing up your decisions of where you spend money and where it's going to kind of be best placed for kind of long-term future growth. I think Olivia and I are very much focused on long-term. We're not kind of trying to build something in 10 months that wins one thing and then disappears. You know, we want to build something that's successful on and off the court for the very long term, has a kind of long lasting positive impact like fans, community players right at the center of it, center of all our decision making. We're trying to be as disruptive as possible because we'd love to kind of be able to prove a different model or a different economic model of how you can do women's sport, how you can do it independently with like dedicated resource, like patient capital, stable ownership over the long term and what are you hoping?

Sue Anstiss:

you talk about that success and you know the long-term building, but what you're hoping success might be for this year, on and off the court, well, I I kind of don't like to talk about outcomes, I like to talk about processes.

Lucy Wray:

So I kind of think if you get your processes right, the outcomes will look after itself. So I look at ourselves and say, actually we've really looked after the players as well as we can. We've looked after our staff as well as we can. We've tried to do the best by the whole netball community, by our fans, like we've got to have fun, like it's got to be a fun journey. It's obviously got to be focused and we're trying to.

Lucy Wray:

Now, obviously, if we kind of see no progress, then we're obviously we're doing something wrong and we are ultimately we're very competitive. You know, someone like Tamsin Greenway and Cam and Nikki Austin, your coaching team, they're definitely all going to be wanting to win. But you know, I think for us that's not the be all and end all. It would be incredible if we got any success and we got to playoffs. When you win a trophy, it's like you're euphoric for 48 hours and then you feel the same as you did the week before. So it doesn't have that kind of long lasting impact on people's lives. I think what does is creating the right culture, the right environment and trying to, you know, trying to prove, be competitive on and off the court. How can we be the best at for an experience? How can we give the best match day experience? How can we get the most sponsorship? How can we drive our audience grows?

Sue Anstiss:

how can we deliver brilliant content like that's how we're like, pushing ourselves to constantly do better and we talk a lot, don't we, about social purpose and obviously winning and winning trophies does help with that also, because you've got a bigger voice and awareness of what you're doing. But how tough is it to balance those commercial aspects that you've mentioned? They're running a sports team and then also maintaining the values and ensuring that you are having that wider social impact yeah, I, I personally don't think they're two silos.

Lucy Wray:

I think you, you know they can sit hand in hand. You mentioned I sat on the board of benchmark sport. One of their businesses is think beyond, and they have a great line which is basically purpose-driven growth, and I think that's that's you can really deliver, that you can really deliver a lot of impact and purpose, but whilst also growing your brand. And I think they can sit together and I think you know brands really resonate with that and your, your kind of fans and your community 100% resonate that. I think their relationship with a club goes far beyond the final whistle on the court. You want them to feel proud of something that your club stands for, something more. So I believe that they sit hand in hand. Yes, you can't be losing more and more money year on year and investing then more and more in your impact because it just so, like you said, the more commercially successful you can be, the more you can then deliver on the impact side as well. So I really believe they sit very much hand in hand and work together.

Sue Anstiss:

And it's obviously great news that this year all the games within the netball super league will be broadcast on Sky or the BBC, which is fantastic. And we've mentioned the success of pwr, with elona mayer across and the increase in terms of uh attendances at some of those games, but sadly neither the netball super league or the pwr have title sponsors right now. I was going to say to you why do you think? That is what you know. I really I'm really interested in your thoughts of despite that success and the growth of women's sport and all we're talking about and professionalism, but you know we haven't seen sponsors flocking to those leagues I think you know success isn't built overnight and and so neither of these leagues you know they're still in their infancy.

Lucy Wray:

You know that, yes, they're putting in it's a steep growth rate and they're putting in all the time and all of that but and the right foundations, but it's just going to take time. You've got to again like sponsors aren't just going to do it because, oh, it's nice and it's women's sport. You know they need a justification, so you've got to give them that justification. That takes time to build and it's definitely there. But I do think the those rights need to be sold completely differently, with a different narrative and very differently to men's sport.

Lucy Wray:

I think there are very different levers to pull when you're selling that sponsorship. But I think it will come. It's just you're fighting in that kind of squeezed middle market where everyone's going after that you know, half a million plus to a million of sponsorship where you're fighting with all the men's men's rugby clubs, men's leagues, men's football clubs at a certain level are all in that market together. You're all fighting for that spend. So I think it's it's a tough area to be, but I think it will come. I think it just it needs the right level investment and it needs really patient capital, but it will come.

Sue Anstiss:

Fabulous to hear, and I know that you're looking at investing in more women's sports properties right now. I know you've been exploring sports beyond netball and rugby, so where do you find that balance between finding those properties that will be profitable commercially and that can have that significant social impact as well, too? Are there specific sports or teams or leagues? What are the drivers for you there?

Lucy Wray:

um, I think a bit like we looked at the, the netball opportunity it's you know you do a bit of a market analysis and your due diligence and then you kind of get a gut feel of the people you're investing in and you know essentially you're investing in and you know essentially you're investing in people, the people who are running it, the people who are at the top, and I think we're at the moment just spending a lot of time just understanding, talking to as many people as we can, understanding what the opportunities are.

Lucy Wray:

Olivia and I have slightly different kind of, I guess, investment criteria, which is good. It's a good balance, like we're both looking at it from a slightly different lens, and she sometimes makes her own investments and likewise we do our own investments. So, yeah, I think it's just we're kind of in that learning phase at the moment, seeing where the opportunities are, and I think you've got to have a bit of a passion for whatever you invest in. So I think there are some things we've kind of not looked at, just because we're more passionate about team sport, for example, than individual sport. So there's certain criteria we would look at.

Sue Anstiss:

And just finally, obviously there is more money coming into women's sports. We've said lots of investors in this space, but if we were to encourage other brands and investors to come and look at women's sport right now, what would you say? What would your recommendation be as to to why that is a good commercial option?

Lucy Wray:

well, I think I'll need to fact check or you might need to fact check myself on me on this, but you know, I think they're saying that the women's sports industry is going to go from 3 billion to 23 billion in the next 10 years. So, like massive, massive growth. It's going to outstrip growth of any other sport and, yes, you're starting from a very low level, but that's a huge opportunity. I think if I was investor, I would say you've got to be patient. You've got to look at this over the long term. You're not going to do anything in 12 months, 24 months. You've got to look at it. Okay, what can we achieve over the next 10 years, 15 years? So I think you need to look at it with that lens on. You need to be patient, but it's a huge growth potential and I think obviously there's some women's sports will do better than others. So you've got to look at it like you would weigh up any business opportunity.

Lucy Wray:

But I think, beyond the actual investment itself, sport is an amazing thing to invest in because you learn so much. You meet incredible people like these peak performance people who don't really understand what mediocre means, and you kind of go on this like passionate roller coaster journey of winning, losing and like magic moments with people, even in the like depths of despair, when you like lost everything, you still learn something through that and you get these incredible bonds. I just don't think that happens in in many things other than sport. In many things other than sport.

Sue Anstiss:

It was great to catch up with Lucy and I'm so impressed with all she's doing in sport and excited to see the impact of the London Mavericks on and off the court. If you'd like to hear from more trailblazers, there are over 200 episodes of the Game Changers that are all free to listen to on podcast platforms or on our website at fearlesswomencouk. My other guests have included elite athletes, coaches, entrepreneurs, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs all women who are changing the game in sport. If netball is your thing, then other guests have included Pamela Cookie, jo Coates, leila Gusketh, sue Campbell, liz Nicol and Serena Guthrie. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 10,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us or tell other women working in sport about us.

Sue Anstiss:

The whole of my book game on the unstoppable rise of women's sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. A huge thank you again to sport england for backing the game changers and the women's sport collective with a national lottery award, and to sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such an excellent job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my lovely colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. You can find the Game Changers on all podcast platforms, so do follow us now and you won't miss out on future episodes. Come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me. At sue anstis, the game changes. Fearless women in sport.

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Sue Anstiss

Host
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Sam Walker

Producer