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The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Khalida Popal: Football, Freedom and Fearless Activism
“When the world forgets Afghanistan, we keep speaking. We are the voices of the women who can no longer be heard.”
What would you risk for the right to play sport? For Khalida Popal, the answer is everything.
This powerful episode of The Game Changers tells the extraordinary story of a woman who defied the Taliban, challenged a corrupt sporting system and used football to fight for the lives and freedoms of women and girls across the world.
Khalida Popal was just a child when her family fled Taliban rule in Afghanistan. In the harsh reality of a refugee camp, she discovered football – a game that gave her joy, freedom, and purpose. Returning to Afghanistan as a teenager, she dared to play in public, formed the country’s first women’s national team and proudly captained her side in the face of threats, abuse and constant danger.
But her leadership didn’t stop on the pitch. Khalida spoke out about the abuse of female players by senior figures in Afghan football and uncovered horrific corruption at the highest levels. It was these actions that meant she was eventually forced to flee for her life.
Now living in Denmark, Khalida continues her relentless activism through the Girl Power Organisation, while leading a global campaign to get FIFA to recognise Afghan women footballers in exile – players stripped of their national identity simply because they are women.
In this gripping and deeply moving conversation, Khalida shares how she helped evacuate over 600 women and girls from Afghanistan when the Taliban returned to power in 2021, what it means to lose your identity as a refugee, and why she refuses to stay silent – even when her own life is at risk.
Raw, emotional and deeply inspiring, this is not just a story about sport. It’s about power, oppression, survival and hope. Khalida Popal is a true game changer.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a very big thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support The Game Changers podcast through a National Lottery award. My guest today is Khalida Popal, former captain of the Afghanistan women's national football team and a pioneering activist who has dedicated her life to empowering women through sports, advocating for gender equality and using football as a tool for social change.
Sue Anstiss:Khalida was born in Afghanistan and fled Taliban rule with her family as a young child. She grew up in a refugee camp in Pakistan, where she began playing football. When Khalida returned to Afghanistan, she co-founded the women's football team and became its first captain. Sadly, Khalida's advocacy for women's rights in sport put her own life in danger and she was again forced to flee Afghanistan. Still supporting the women's team remotely, Khalida settled in Denmark, where she uncovered the sexual abuse of players by the former President of the Afghanistan Football Federation. When Kabul fell to the Taliban in 2021, Khalida organised an international evacuation to save her teammates and her story is shared in the stunning new memoir my Beautiful Sisters. Today, Khalida is the founder and director of the Girl Power organisation, a programme manager for Right to Dream and a member of the UNHCR Sport for Refugees Coalition.
Sue Anstiss:It's a real privilege to talk to you, Khalida. I know I was saying earlier we've been in many rooms together but never really sat down and had a proper conversation, so I'm so looking forward to this and and kind of digging more into your story having read your fantastic book. So, if I can start with the kind of your history and background, you were born in Afghanistan in an incredibly progressive and well-educated extended family. So your grandfather, I think, was a university professor. Your grandmother was one of the first girls to graduate from school in Kabul. Can you tell us more about family life as you remember it as a very young child?
Khalida Popal:First of all, thank you so much for having me. It's such a privilege and honor. It's one of my favorite podcasts and I love every episode and I'm still following when I'm in a car driving. I love to hear that it's a privilege.
Khalida Popal:I'm so excited about this. Back to the question. I grew up in a male-dominated country, in a war-torn country I always say that where war has affected lives of so many people, especially when it comes to women and girls, and it has also affected my life. But I always also call myself as one of the privileged people because I had a family support in that country where patriarchy is dominant. In a country where patriarchy is dominant where my father and my grandfather always called themselves as feminists it was the first time I heard from them the term that they used.
Khalida Popal:I am a feminist, so they were minorities with that mindset in the country. We have the responsibility in our life. We have to stand for something bigger than ourselves. Our privilege is our power and we need to use it for our community, for the people, and to stand up for each other. So that's how I learned growing up from my parents and grandparents. The country was very difficult when it comes to women and girls, where girl child marriages was very famous and popular. Honor killing was one of part of the culture in giving birth to girls. People perceived us as something bad and taboo and parents were seen as weak people when they give birth to a girl child and a boy child.
Sue Anstiss:Why do you feel your grandfather and your father had such a different attitude to the other kind of men around you in society?
Khalida Popal:I think it's because of our culture has never been like that, and so it's the war that has affected and my father and grandfather. They are well-educated people, they are people from the time that women and men were seen as equal, because the culture in Afghanistan, the history of Afghanistan, it wasn't always like male dominated, it wasn't war-torn country. So our core, our foundation, our history was not very different from the Western world. If you see the old pictures of Afghanistan, women and men were contributing and were active in the society, equally active in the society. But unfortunately, war has taken everything from us and has destroyed our culture.
Sue Anstiss:It is quite shocking, isn't it? I think I saw some photos recently I think it might have been Iran of women in the 60s and 70s like, dressed as we would expect Western women to be dressed equally, working and sharing within community, and I think I hadn't. You almost assume that that's how it has always been, but that isn't the case.
Khalida Popal:No, it's not the case in Afghanistan. Also, before the war, afghanistan was different, and when I see the photos from my grandparents and hear their stories, they are talking about a country that I never recognized because my generation grew up in war. So I lost the first year of my school because of civil war and I still remember how much I was looking forward to start my school. I was counting my days as young kids who have the new uniform, new school bag and they're looking so much forward to go to school and start school and have friends. But then there was a delay one year delay in my education, because the civil war happened and our school was used for internal displaced people, and so we were counting the days that the war was over and we can go to school.
Sue Anstiss:And it was 1996, I think that you and your family fled the Taliban rule and moved into a refugee camp in Pakistan. You were there for four years, so that must have been such a shocking experience for you as a young girl, but also for your whole family. So what are your kind of memories of that time?
Khalida Popal:Our family was in a great danger and the time Our family was in great danger, the life of our family was in great danger because they were very active in the previous government, before the Taliban, and so they were targeted and we had to leave overnight our home and flee to Pakistan and to start from zero. We couldn't take anything with us. The only thing that we took with us was a blanket, because it was winter. And we went to Pakistan and we ended up in refugee camp, which was very difficult. We lost everything and we lost our childhood in war.
Khalida Popal:I was on the end of the second grade at school that the Taliban took over, so we were refugees and so since then I started, I had to work equally with my everybody in the family, so I was taking care of my brothers when my parents were out trying to work and find food for us, were out trying to work and find food for us, and so or sometimes I was in the shop with my father and I was working. So I don't remember my time as a child or as a teenager having like a normal teenager life. I don't remember, because that war has taken that away from me and we had to grow up as adults. We had to be an adult in a very young age and take the responsibility Losing an identity and losing community, losing friends, losing people around you. That is the case of refugees in so many places around the world.
Sue Anstiss:And was that where your passion and your interest in football was first sparked, within the refugee camp.
Khalida Popal:Yes, our family was always a good supporter of sports and there was always sport around us. So my mum and dad I used to grow up seeing them playing badminton with other people, so it was like a social gathering. Was badminton that was kind of a game that they used to play or volleyball, so I used to see them, but for me it was football, because football was one of the first and very popular game in Afghanistan. That's how we used to see street sports.
Khalida Popal:Street football was the main, and when we went to pakistan, the best thing about football that I love so much is is the game for for all, like regardless of where you in the society you are, what status you have, it's for everybody. It's the the game for poor and rich, um, and it's just. All you need to do is. You don't need a fancy equipment, all you need to do is, like put stones as goalposts that's what how we did and just have something like even a bottle as kind of like a ball, and then you have a team and then you play and this it becomes competitive. That's how we started using football in the streets in Pakistan and we found a community and it wasn't girls playing football, it was only boys and I was playing with the boys.
Sue Anstiss:And when you returned to Afghanistan, the Taliban were no longer in power. But what were the cultural attitudes then to women playing football, playing sport?
Khalida Popal:For eight years. Women were not allowed to get out of their home during the Taliban without a company by a male member of the family. They were not allowed to go to school, watch TV and be without burqa. So they were all from top to toe. They were covered.
Khalida Popal:So when the Taliban lost the power and international allies came to Afghanistan, still there was the fear amongst people that the Taliban returned and you could still feel the kind of the smell of the war and oppression in the society. And eight years is a long time for a country, a society where the development was stopped, school was stopped, people didn't go to school, people were even not allowed to and were punished for watching TV or listening to radios. So it affected the culture. So young girls like myself, when we returned back, we were teenagers and we grew up in a different culture which was a little bit open than the Afghan culture. And that's where for us it was difficult to be active in the community because we were constantly receiving warnings, we were harassed because of not wearing hijabs and burqas. We were part of that country but we were not seen as kind of like the women from that country because of our upbringing, because the way we were thinking and because of our education that we had from being outside Afghanistan. But still, all I wanted to do was to have some in a kind of in a very negative and tough environment.
Khalida Popal:I wanted to have fun, I wanted to find joy, I wanted to feel belong to a place, and that was football, because that's what I knew from playing in a refugee center, refugee camps where I felt the freedom Freedom meaning freedom of thinking, freedom of mentally feeling free, because it's a lot of pressure when you're a refugee, when you're in a country where you're oppressed and everybody is deciding for you, just based on your gender, how to walk, how to clean, how to do things, how to even talk.
Khalida Popal:As a woman, as a girl, child everybody is deciding and having actually a decision over your life.
Khalida Popal:That's part of the culture, and so, for me, football was the, was creating moments of freedom where I was not talking, thinking about what, how to kind of like walk, how to run, how to laugh, how to kind of like walk, how to run, how to laugh, how to scream, how to yell and how to lead. And that was the freedom that made me feel, fall in love with the game, and I found my passion because of the freedom I felt through football, and football become my passion and I was playing with boys street football again, but this time was different because I was a teenager. My body shape changed and of course, there was more pressure from the society. People were noticing me and so the neighbors were putting so much pressure on my brothers. They were bullying the boys in my team for allowing me to play with them, and I still I wanted to continue. I didn't want them to win and stop me, but there was a time that I had to to find a solution, to continue playing football, but not with the boys.
Sue Anstiss:It's incredible, isn't it, that you continued on in way, despite all that going on around society and family. When you think back, why is it that you think you overcame those societal pressures? Because you could easily have just I'm sure there were many girls that would have stopped at that point.
Khalida Popal:For me it was. I keep questioning that. Why a boy or like my brother, can play sport any sport that they want, and I can't because of being a girl or being a young woman? Why I can't? Why is this? The society is deciding for me. It should be my decision as well. 's what I keep saying. If I allow my neighbor to take decision for me, they will continue doing that over my all my life, and I'm not a slave and I'm I'm part of the society I am. I have equal rights to my brother or the boys in the team. If they take the decision to play and continue playing football, I should have the same rights and I will not allow the people to decide for me. I will fight for it and I will fight for my right. And that was in the beginning. It was about me. It was about my right and I didn't think about the whole picture, about the women in the society. It was about my right and the passion was threatened to be taken away, the freedom that I was feeling. So I continued. One of the funny things I did was like giving up is not an option for me and I never want that option. So I continued finding a team and I went undercover and I played in a boys team pretending that I'm a boy and only the coach knew. So, coach, he was such a fantastic person he was he told me that I will allow you until until, like, they recognize and discover that you are a girl, and the minute that they do that, then you will stop coming to my team, because then it we will face the challenge. And I went undercover. I went, I wore extrasized jerseys, I had the hat on me and then a cup, so I was hiding my hair and I was playing and I was also pretending that I am deaf and I can't talk and hear. Difficult for me. I'm so loud, I love to take a lead, I want to show myself and I want to ask for a ball. But to be able to continue playing football, I had to. For a while I had to be silent and I play silent football. But it didn't take a long time that some of the boys were curious about who I am and they started following me. They found out that I'm going to girls' school and they discovered that I'm a girl. So I stopped playing with the boys and then I said okay, what is it that I can do. Maybe there are more girls like me who love to play football and because of these cultural barriers, I will go and find my own team and that's how I started going to my own school and started recruiting girls. Find my own team and that's how I started going to my own school and started a campaign, started recruiting girls from my own school, from different classes, and in here my mom was my biggest supporter because she was my PE teacher and she had access to the equipment to the students. I started recruiting girls into football and for me that time was that okay. Now I have a team. We started from only two people and then it continued having more girls into football and I wanted the girls to enjoy the freedom, the freedom that I felt and experienced. I wanted them to experience that. So it was nothing fancy football, it was putting our school bags having something round like a ball. And then later on, we found a magic ball. We call it a magic ball. The black and white color, beautiful football that we played. We called that as a magic ball. The reason we call that as a magic ball. The reason we call that as a magic ball because of the, the fun and the joy that football brings. The minute the ball starts rolling, you have the joy and yeah, and it brings a smile in your face and that's the. That's what we love so much about football. And so the number of the girls grew in our team, so we had two teams in in one school. For me in that time it was more of like okay, we found, we found our team, we have our space and and and that's it, we will play until like um, it was a turning moment that for us, that it changed from passion to purpose when our team was attacked by a group of men from outside the school and they had the knife and destroyed that magic ball and told us that women cannot walk properly, how they can play football. Football is man's game. Women belong to the kitchen. You have to learn how to cook and clean and serve your future husband and you should not play sport. It's against the honor of the family, it's against the honor of the country. And they started yelling at us and insulting us. And that was a turning moment for me where I felt and I experienced there is a bigger challenge for us waiting there in the society than just us trying to play football and for me, it was that moment that I said football is going to be my tool and my voice is going to be my strong tool to be the voice for our sisters and I will continue the campaign. And that is the movement through. Football started in Afghanistan and it went from my school to different schools. We had an official league and then later on, we really managed to get some. We tried so hard to get a football federation on board. It sounds like easy, but it was difficult to get the afghanistan football federation on board to recognize our league and and and help us to to find a and establish our first women's national team and make history, which we did.
Sue Anstiss:It was fantastic, and how did that feel at that time to be representing your country on the field, hearing the national anthem. I mean especially having overcome all you had to get to be in that place.
Khalida Popal:When the entire country tells you you can't and and you face so many barriers, so many challenges and it's constant and continuous um pressure, insults and and danger and risks that you're you face. And then you prove it and you stand together as a team and you make history. When everybody said you can't, and you made it there and the jerseys that we wore it was not given. We really earned that, we really fought for that, and so the badge on our chest was the victory.
Khalida Popal:Already, even we were standing on the pitch, it wasn't like the game wasn't even started. We felt some sort of victory and it was beyond football. It was nothing about football, it was beyond football and it was a group of women who proven that we can when we become as a unit and we believe in our purpose and our journey. And when the national anthem was played for the first time, that was so emotional moment for us we started crying. We started crying because it was a confirmation of our victory, that we made the first step, and of course, there is still challenges, but we won. It was daring, the younger girls, the generation, the new generation that we made it, it's possible and you can continue, and that was the best and beautiful moment for us.
Sue Anstiss:And was the support for you then, as this team came together, in terms of fans, but also financial support from the Federation.
Khalida Popal:It was so difficult Like this story. Maybe so many people around the world who play women's football. They resonate with this, because you get little support and you have to just keep quiet and you appreciate and you just don't complain because, yes, because you will not complain and be always grateful. Yes, just be grateful. So when our women's national team was founded and we were practicing for a tournament to um to represent afghanistan abroad, we were given the tainest cord, half of the tainest cord. Even they didn't bother to take away the nets and they were not allowing us to take the tainest nets away and that is a full squat training on half of the tainest cord. This is how it shows that, how, when we reflect back, it was actually we were set to fail because we were told by the Afghanistan Football Federation that you will bring embarrassment to the country. How dare you thought that women can actually represent Afghanistan. So it took us a long time in the whole negotiation but we were like not complaining, even having that half of the tennis court. We were like not complaining, even having that half of the tennis court. We were not complaining, we were grateful. We were trying to stay quiet and just kind of be grateful for what we have and and really think about our bigger purpose and and our mission and our whole movement for our sisters in af. So there was no budget. Our jerseys that were given was so bad that when we started our first game it was ripped apart or the numbers were kind of fading. Uniform is so much actually affecting on your self-confidence as an athlete and sometimes people underestimate that when you have a good uniform and it looks more professional, you look more professional. It actually affects your self-confidence. The football boots that were given to us they didn't give us that football boots before in the training, just before the game starts, they give us the football boots and they said, like you need to fit your your feet in the boot. So it's not that we, we don't have other options, so you need to just fit your shoe, your feet and that. So I remember I had my toes just kind of like really it was one size smaller and I had my toes like really in right, I was really trying to fit my feet in that and that destroyed us and it was like we all had bruises all over and we still we were saying nothing, we were grateful and we were not complaining because we didn't want that to become a barrier for Football Federation to stop us from playing football and we played several games.
Khalida Popal:It was an unofficial tournament in Pakistan and we had to figure out how to actually play in a big, standard size pitch. And it was funny the goalpost was too big for us and we were saying, oh my God, is it going to be the standard size of the goal? And the whole football stadium was standard. It was a beautiful stadium, beautiful football pitch and real football pitch. Everything felt real and so big and scary.
Khalida Popal:But we as a team had to figure out how to really work together to learn how to play, how to actually run on that football pitch and how to actually save our goal. It was nothing professional, honestly nothing professional. We had to figure out because the coach that was given to us, he was worried for a whole list that his wife and his mother-in-law give him to do shopping from Pakistan and he was all the time talking about the shopping list of all the things that he had to buy and he was worried and he was stressed about it and he was not talking about football game, about our formation, about anything. And we had to figure out ourselves, how to actually stand together, how to form our team, where to actually which post we should stand.
Khalida Popal:That's how we have actually tried to come together as a team. But then we managed to, to learn how to win and score the goals and in we had fans there watching us and and that's where, first time, we had one of the national tvs broadcasted our game and some of the families that were not aware that we are playing football, they found out from TV the national TVs that there is a women's team representing Afghanistan and some of their daughters were playing, because some of our players went undercover and they didn't tell their families and it was secret. But it was no more secret for the nation that there is a national team, there's a women's team representing Afghanistan.
Sue Anstiss:And you went on, didn't you? To work at the Afghanistan Football Federation. You're the first woman to work there, so firstly in a finance role and then as head of the Women's Football Committee and Director of Women's Football, and things, I think started well, so there were more opportunities for other women too. Were you hopeful at that time that there might be real change at the top of the sport?
Khalida Popal:um, it's funny the way kind of like the whole negotiations happened, like my, my role in Afghanistan Football Federation, but also even the, the fact that Football Federation got on board recognizing women's football and allowing. So the first negotiation, with recognizing our league and allowing us to have a national team, was my negotiation with Afghanistan Football Federation and that was it wasn't about women empowerment. It doesn't work in the countries like Afghanistan when you it's the whole negotiation, the whole, like the whole conversation. When it's about women, inclusion of women, if you go as a feminist activist mindset, you will lose. So you have to figure out the language of how they can actually allow you to get on board. And that was the money. So we say that you get the budget, you get the money, you get all the recognition, all the credit, we will work, we'll find out our budget, we'll find all the kind of the funds, everything from outside. You, as Football Federation, get all the credit, all the budget, and that is how we won the first negotiation that Football Federation was on board. And that is how we won the first negotiation that Football Federation was on board.
Khalida Popal:The second negotiation, the second part, that they allowed, they accepted me to work as the first woman in their history was the fact that Afghanistan Football Federation and it's a funny story, no-transcript he came up with an idea that it should be a woman and it should be a young woman who will not have the courage that's his definition will not have the courage and guts to steal the money and end up in corruption. And for me, because I was really fighting for a long time to have the voice of women in decision making and the federation where they take decision for us, so it was a great opportunity. I was like I don't care what is the definition, what is the kind of the whole idea about having a woman in Afghanistan Football Federation. This is the best time for me, because I know what is my goal, what is my purpose and I will go for it. And so I really went there and I had the negotiation.
Khalida Popal:I was, like having the conversation there, like with the Afghanistan Football Federation's president, that I don't have the guts, I don't have the courage to steal money, I don't have the power to even like, do anything and skip from the country. So don don't worry, your money is going to be saved and I'll assure that, like, everything will be according to what you're kind of trying to plan and what the finances to get him on board. And that is how I entered the Afghanistan Football Federation and then I was fighting so hard to get into Afghanistan Football Federation's women's football department and to lead the women's football, and so then I got two positions head of women's football and the head of finance. And then I was elected in the board, where I was the only woman in the board and of course I faced insults and they were bullying. They were yeah, they were mocking me, but I knew what is my purpose and why I am there, and it was because of our women, our team, our future and the voices of us.
Sue Anstiss:And just to be clear, because it did surprise me, I think, as I kind of discovered more, the people leading sports organisations in Afghanistan aren't just general sports administrators like we might see in the UK or elsewhere in the world, but they're often governors or generals in the military or men working with the Taliban who were given these additional positions in sport as as part of their job roles. And I think it was as you began to talk more openly about the misuse of power and and how it was impacting women and girls is. Is that where it became an issue for you in terms of your questioning that corruption and authority within sport?
Khalida Popal:yeah, it's unfortunate because the most powerful men in the in the country who are very much involved in in government, in military or in war, some of the warlords, that's how it's called they have the position and they are the, the people with high influence that have these positions in sport. So when you, for example, go to a federation in the Western world, what you see is more sports, kids, anything related to sport. But in Afghanistan and several countries like Afghanistan, the first thing you see entering the sports arena is the gun, the bodyguards and all the military equipments and that is scary. That is scary and that's dangerous. And so you can see that how difficult and dangerous and brave was for women to decide to work there. But for me, playing for Afghanistan Women's National Team, making history and kind of like working in Afghanistan Football Federation, was not enough.
Khalida Popal:I wanted to use my platform because as an athlete, when you get in like certain status and it comes with power, it is a responsibility. With power, you have responsibility. How do you use that? So my power was my platform, because I was more recognized in the country. I got the platform, I got the power and I felt responsible towards my community, towards the people, and my platform was strong calling the government and calling people to question the leadership in sport and who is leading sport and how the corruption and abuse of power affects the participation of women in the society and in sport. So I started questioning those. I started openly talking about those, which was direct call to people in a sport that was involved, and that's where I received that threat. I was threatened directly from a very powerful man in the government. Unfortunately, my family was attacked several times and physically attacked.
Khalida Popal:It came to a time that was too dangerous for me to stay in the country because several times there were attempts towards my life. It became too political, so my voice became stronger. The stronger my voice was, the more I was losing the freedom, so I was not able to go alone outside. I continuously had the threats in my family. I was losing the freedom. I didn't have really time to take a decision, but there was one question in my head that if they shot me? But there was one question in my head that if they shot me, there won't be any girl who will dream and dare to actually continue. If, in one way or another way, I inspired them to take the lead and to stand for themselves. I want to save my voice for that girl to continue. So that was the moment that I had to skip to survive.
Sue Anstiss:And it was incredibly moving in the book to hear about that journey in your search for asylum into Pakistan, to India, then on to Scandinavia, as you kind of sought that, a safe place to be, as you say, and retain your voice too. How did you deal with that fear and the uncertainty of that journey and losing your sense of identity as a refugee?
Khalida Popal:It was so difficult. It was never an idea of like the whole movement I started. My idea was never to leave my country, never leave the people to seek asylum or go abroad. But that happened and I didn't even have the time to say goodbye to my loved ones. I left the country to be alive, and it's a natural human act, kind of like going through a stressful situation, anxiety, living underground. How stressed I was that I had nightmares. There was time that I couldn't sleep. I had to turn on all the lights to make sure there is not even a dark spot in the room, because I had the nightmares that there is a man standing there trying to shot me with or kill me with a knife, or standing with a knife. Those were the things that I was dreaming about and I stopped like there was a time that I was too scared to fall asleep because of those nightmares. So I was going through that and so, like I ended up in refugee centers in Scandinavia, norway and Denmark. Life was so different and difficult. Yes, I had the safety. I had the shelter to live. I had food on the table, which I'm grateful for. I never complained about that, of course. I had the safety and the shelter to continue life.
Khalida Popal:But as a refugee, as people that you leave your country, your home, you lose the identity and that is one of the horrible things that happened to human beings. You were someone and all of a sudden you're nobody. The identity, and that is one of the horrible things that happen to human being. You are someone and all of a sudden you're nobody. And there is an id card and at the refugee center that they give you what? The number, and you are identified by a number, even not your name, and then you're waiting for unknown situation, unknown decision for someone to take a decision about you, for you and for your future. And you have to go through a system that re-traumatizing you continuously. Because this is the process and you are investigated. You are kind of sitting as a criminal and there is an immigration officer or police continuously asking you several questions why you? Why you left your country, why you? What will happen? That if you return back, it's kind of re-traumatizing you, re-traumatizing you, and even living in the refugee center which is close to a military operations, like you see all the the war, kind of like it's old compound of military and army, so you're actually living in trauma that they will not allow you to get out.
Khalida Popal:But then also the narrative is threatened by some not so well and good responsible media, right.
Khalida Popal:So it's the politician is fighting, and that's the different thing that I experienced the politicians to win the vote, it's the more weight on immigration, how to make the immigration difficult for people, for immigrants, and they become popular Just for winning the votes.
Khalida Popal:They're writing narratives about our life without even us having the opportunity to actually tell our story from our side of story, and that is also very difficult when you're seeing everything against you. You are escaping from the situation in your country that you didn't want to, and now you're in a country that everything is against and you have to prove and prove yourself, and there is no time for you to take a pause and reflect what happened to your life, who you lost in. You don't have the time. You have to prove yourself that you're not stealing someone's job, you're not stealing someone's money, you're. You're a good immigrant, you're integrated, and integration is most of the time on us. It's like so much weight that we have to find a way to integrate and that is for a human being. It's too much to go through and that's what I experienced living as a refugee in refugee centres. But one thing that helped me was football.
Sue Anstiss:And how is life in Denmark today? So have you been able to find that community?
Khalida Popal:What helped me was coaching football to women in the refugee centers, because all I knew was they took away everything from me in Afghanistan. But what I didn't lose was my purpose in life, and that is to empower others to help and support others. And that is my purpose in life, and that is to empower others to help and support others. And that is my purpose in life and that helped me and and keep me alive and moving and motivated me. So I started coaching and refugee centers, women to overcome together, to overcome the stressful situation, the trauma and in anxiety and depression that we were going through. When I got permission to stay in Denmark, I founded Girl Power Organization and I started building community of women and girls, especially with a special focus on marginalized community, creating education and sporting opportunity, but also building bridges between two communities and taking actually the leadership in changing the narrative.
Khalida Popal:For me, the way my mindset works, the way I function in life, is that when I see challenge, I think about solution. If we are part of the challenge and we are seen as our community is seen as challenge, it's also a responsibility as a community to find solutions, to say that this is also possible and you can see how we are contributing positively in the society as refugee people mark. We started um, providing activities and connecting women and girls into sport, but also creating uh. We started creating pathways to job and and also sports for women and also what our main focus was to help women to actually tell their stories and own their narratives and then expanded to around uh europe and in the UK. We have recently it's a year now that we are expanded our activities in the UK, in South Yorkshire, providing sporting and education activities for women and girls there, and we have been outside Europe, in Africa and Middle East, and we have been connecting women from around the world and that's how I expanded my community.
Sue Anstiss:Brilliant, is that the mainstay of activity that you're doing day to day now within the organization?
Khalida Popal:Yes, it's like it's my full time now. Focus and beside that, I'm also working with Write a Dream, which one of the programs I'm leading is purpose entrepreneurship.
Sue Anstiss:it's social entrepreneurship program and you've still been connected with the afghanistan women's team since you left the country. So, yeah, you work with suzy rag from the guardian, who was obviously another extraordinary guest on the podcast who exposed the sexual abuse by the former president of the af Football Federation which led to this global impact across the sport, and I know you've been such a very vocal activist around the safety for women there. Do you worry about your own safety now still, as you're talking out on these issues?
Khalida Popal:No, I don't want that kind of like to take away from my motivation to do more. I never stopped when I left Afghanistan, never stopped giving back and supporting the women of Afghanistan. I never stopped, even living in the refugee camp. I continued supporting and continued being in contact with Afghanistan Football Federation, with Afghanistan Women's National Team and the grassroots football through my organization in Afghanistan. And so one of the major cases in football was against sexual abuse and harassment that was led by the former president of Afghanistan Football Federation. They sent some people outside my door in Denmark to just show their power, outside my door in Denmark, to just show their power to threaten me to kind of stop me for what I'm doing.
Khalida Popal:I feel safe in Denmark. I don't want to think about my life being taken away and I remember from what Kayleigh Lindsay, one of the greatest people and one of the greatest leaders that I admire so much and I see as my role model what she said that someone has to take the bullet, and that's the extreme way I'm saying it. Someone has to take the lead and sacrifice, so then the others can benefit in the society. And someone did for me, and the reason I'm here is because someone else was before me and that took that fight and I'm grateful for all those amazing women and girls and men who believed in the equity and equality.
Khalida Popal:He really fought hard and the reason I'm here because of them I'm not the first one and I'm not the first one and I'm not going to be the last one is because of all those women, amazing women that I admire and they started, they opened the doors of opportunity, they told us this is possible and because of them I'm here and I am continuing that. I'm sure that there will be next generations who will see it through my journey and continue this, the good fight for inclusion and equity, and I will continue doing that. And if, in this fight, something happens to me, I wouldn't regret and I wouldn't worry because it's worth it. It's everything I've done in my life and things that I lost. It was worth all worth for this fight you mentioned the magnificent kelly lindsey.
Sue Anstiss:I completely agree with you. You know that kind of wild praise for her and and she was part of that group of her and kat craig and organizations like fif, fifa Pro that came together to help you to get some of the players out when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban again in 2021. And those female footballers were in danger for their lives and so it was necessary to help them escape the country. Were you surprised at the time how people did unite together to make that happen?
Khalida Popal:This is the beauty of football and beauty of a sport the amazing network of how a sport and football can actually impact lives of people, and great network and richness and resources that it has. I remember writing on social media of asking people I didn't know, like I have, of course, I have a great network of people. Sometimes, when you have a great network, you don't know who to reach to. I remember the post that I made and and also the people who reached out um Jonas from FIFPro, for example, the first one who reached out to, and, and my friends and everybody from my network reached out and said how can we help you to get the girls out? And that was kind of like the call to action, call to save the players' lives, because the foundation of Afghanistan Women's National Team was built on activism and these players were recognized and they were just by themselves. They called Taliban as their enemies and they stood up against the ideology of Taliban and amazing individuals from around the world, from Australia to Canada to the US, from UK to Europe.
Khalida Popal:Everybody joined a collective group where we were working constantly, like without a stop.
Khalida Popal:We were working to lobby the governments, to get the governments on board, to save the players and their lives and, of course, they saved their lives.
Khalida Popal:We were playing our role to facilitate that journey, that escape for them and, as a result of like a collective action, by now more than 600 women and girls with their families are saved and they're outside Afghanistan. They are playing football, they're advocating, they're studying, and every time I travel to these areas for example, the senior women's national team is evacuated in Australia, the junior women's team is in Germany and Portugal, in the UK and also in the US and some other countries. Whenever I travel and meet them and we do programs together and I see them kicking the ball, chasing their dreams and having the freedom, chasing their dreams and having the freedom. We couldn't save all the women from the country, but the women who managed to get out and escape and they are chasing their dreams. That is the most beautiful and powerful thing and I am so grateful for every individual who listened, who joined and who saved these lives and have they been able to play for Afghanistan as refugees, as a refugee team?
Khalida Popal:Unfortunately, since the evacuation, they lost their status. Based on the FIFA rules, it's only the member association who can recognize a team, but the member association is now governed and controlled by Taliban. And Taliban put ban on education and sport, full ban for women and girls. Women are not even allowed to go in only women gym. So sport is not seen as something good for women according to Taliban. So we cannot wait for a member association who is controlled by Taliban to recognize a women's national team and give a list to FIFA.
Khalida Popal:So what we have been doing from it's three and a half years now.
Khalida Popal:We have been advocating, we have been campaigning and I've been leading this campaign to get the recognition, get FIFA on board to find solution and work together with us by excluding the Federation of Afghanistan, who is run and led by Taliban, and work together with us to find solution, to give our women the right to represent the women of Afghanistan, Because this team was built on this foundation of activism, being the voice for our sisters. Today we need our platform to be the voice for our sisters who lost the right. They are an open present by the name of Afghanistan, so we want to represent that and our players are being active, they are advocating and they are continuously playing football and I'm sure, and I'm certain that FIFA will get on board and I'm hoping that Sarai Bahman, who is head of women's football, who knows the struggle of women, Sarai Bahman, who is head of women's football, who know the struggle of women, who will gate on board and who will work together with us to find solutions where our women can represent the women of Afghanistan.
Sue Anstiss:And we've seen the same in cricket as well. At the moment, haven't we With the women that left Afghanistan, the cricketers who are not able to play for the country, still not recognised because the ICC don't allow it? Anyway, it just frustrates me, I guess, as an outsider watching it happen, it seems like nothing is changing. It's not changing fast enough. But is it around the power imbalance? Is it around funding? Why do you think these things that feel like it's such an obvious distribution of funding? Because in some cases, the money is still going into the Football Federation for the female team, but it's not reaching anybody, it's not being utilised.
Khalida Popal:Yeah, there is no confirmation where actually the fund is going and it's actually any fund gone for the women's, because 2021, since then, the women's football department is dismissed, so we don't have any confirmation yet if there is any fund win there, because that is also a question. The other thing is that there is a violation of human right in sport. It's a gender discrimination, it's a black and white gender discrimination in a sport, and that's where we need governing bodies of sport to take a stand and stand by their own status, because that is what their status say, right. So, and they haven't been active and fast enough to react to that and I understand the complex situation of Afghanistan we are not actually, especially in regards to our football team. They're not actually advocating to remove the men's team. What we want to say is it's your problem If you want to kind of stop men's football, it's your problem.
Khalida Popal:What we want is to find solutions for us that we have the right to represent, because the whole movement started by women for women in Afghanistan. We sacrificed our lives. We have lost so many lives in our families, in our team, to gain that platform. It shouldn't be shut down by a group of men who thinks that women belong to the kitchen and women should be servant. We want the sport governing bodies to stand there and show the leadership and say women belong to everywhere.
Khalida Popal:That's what we have been advocating, that's what we have been pushing, and I will not give up. I'll continue pushing the governing bodies of sport to stand by their own status and to take decision, to show where they are standing. Are they standing by being silent, supporting Taliban, or they are standing with the women? Who wants to take the lead, who wants to, who have sacrificed so much? They should stand by everything that. What they are putting in their books, it's gender discrimination is three and a half year, almost four years, and we don't, we haven't seen any action by the, by sporting uh bodies. That's what we are trying to advocate for and hopefully we will get somewhere.
Sue Anstiss:And it's hard to comprehend, isn't it what's happening to women in Afghanistan right now in terms of their being completely removed from society, in terms of they can't study or work or be heard in any way. I mean, it's heartbreaking from people that aren't even in the country, don't have a history with the country, but it must be so heartbreaking for you, especially after all you've done in the last 20 years. So how do you manage to retain that hope for the future? Because clearly you have that in talking to you, you do have that, but how do you maintain that?
Khalida Popal:It is just being honest. It is tough. It is difficult, it's tiring. This is not my full-time job. I don't get for my bills to be paid. It's just a pure advocacy base and I have not given up. Since the day I started playing football I've not given up.
Khalida Popal:And in the case of Afghanistan women's national team, in every campaign that we have had it has been a tough one mentally, physically, emotionally. It's tiring in so many levels. But what keeps me motivated is the young girls. When I meet them it's continuous that I am mentoring and supporting them through my organization or through personal support. When I still see the hope, then it makes me feel motivated to continue the advocacy. But at the same time, there are so many girls in Afghanistan. I am continuously receiving messages from young girls in Afghanistan to help them, to find a way to get them out of that prison. And it's tiring, it's so tough one.
Khalida Popal:So what we are trying to do as women of Afghanistan from outside is to show them that we have not given up on you. Do not lose hope. We are sending, we are trying to kind of use any opportunity we have to tell them that we are there, we see you, we hear you. We are here, your voices, and we feel responsible because the world has forgotten about Afghanistan. It's kind of like yesterday's news. The world moved on to so many other conflicts, many other conflicts, but we are continuously supporting the women of Afghanistan to not give up. We are the voices. We are using our platform as football. We are using football to continue that advocacy, but, at the same time, we are trying to also tell the sporting world, and, in our case, football, that what is happening in the world is crazy.
Khalida Popal:The conflicts and, after conflicts, the climate changes, will have so many challenges and it's unfortunate, but this is real. It will come more challenges. Where is the solution? Are they prepared or not? Why take four years, five years, for them to take a decision? They need to act fast. Afghanistan is one of the example, and it was the example back then, in 2018, when we started the sexual abuse case. There was no system in place to actually find solutions for the victims and survivors of sexual abuse, and now it has changed. Of course, more people got involved. The policies change, the systems change, but they need to act because they have power, they have resources.
Sue Anstiss:And finally, what can we all do to help support those ongoing efforts to empower women in Afghanistan through sport? And you've talked so eloquently about the power of sport, but what would your call be for us to do?
Khalida Popal:Help us to push the governing bodies of sport to recognise the teams, the women who had the title, who had the status, and they want to take the lead. All we need is to get the platform. We are the messengers, the voices. All we need is the support of the people around in sport to help us to gain that platform again, that recognition again and meaningful recognition. Not allow any group like Taliban, to say that women belong to service or to the kitchen if you'd like to hear from more extraordinary women like Lida.
Sue Anstiss:There are over 200 episodes of the game changers that are free to listen to on all podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. My other trailblazing guests have included elite athletes, coaches, entrepreneurs, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs All women who are changing the game in sport and beyond. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 10,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us. The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast.
Sue Anstiss:Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you once again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective through a National Lottery Award, and to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such a fabulous job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my lovely colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. You can find me on social media at Sue Anstis and follow the game changers on all podcast platforms so you don't miss out on future episodes. The game changers. Fearless women in sport.
