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The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Jenny Meadows: Medals, Mindset and Meaning
"I’ve become the person I needed when I was younger – and that’s the greatest gift I can offer the athletes I coach today."
Jenny Meadows is a former world-class middle-distance runner and now one of Britain’s most respected athletics coaches. Recently honoured – alongside her husband – as BBC Sports Personality Coach of the Year, Jenny is a European and World medallist whose success was forged through resilience, grit and a quiet determination to prove she belonged, even when she often felt like an outsider.
In this deeply honest and moving conversation, Jenny shares how sport transformed her from a shy young girl who let her brother speak for her, to someone who found her voice, her power and her purpose through athletics.
Affectionately known as the “pocket rocket”, Jenny speaks candidly about the mindset challenges she faced, and how it took her decades to believe she deserved her place at the top of the sport.
She discusses the devastating impact of doping in athletics, the heartbreak of missing out on podiums and finals, and how, ultimately, it was a broken heart that led her to retire.
Today, Jenny co-leads the M11 Track Club in Manchester with her husband and long-time coach, Trevor Painter, guiding a group of elite athletes including Olympic gold medallist Keely Hodgkinson.
She reflects on the joy of coaching, the role of empathy and the emotional intelligence needed to support high-performing athletes as whole people - not just performers.
A passionate advocate for greater gender diversity in coaching, Jenny also shares her hopes for the future and her commitment to creating more visibility, opportunity and community for women in the coaching space.
This is a powerful conversation about identity, belief, and finding meaning beyond medals.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a very big thank you to our partner, Sport England, who supportT he Game Changers podcast through a national lottery award. Today, I'm joined by the incredible Jenny Meadows, a world-class middle distance runner who is now an award-winning coach, recently honoured, alongside her husband, as BBC Sports Personality Coach of the Year.
Sue Anstiss:Jenny's best known for her brilliant career on the track, representing Great Britain on the world stage with a huge tally of medals. Her talent, grit and tactical brilliance made her a firm favourite with the fans and one of the most respected athletes in the sport. Jenny's huge impact on athletics extends beyond her racing days. Since stepping off the track in 2016, jenny's been involved in broadcasting and taking on several board positions within the sport, and is now fully immersed in a coaching role alongside her husband, trevor, as part of the M11 track club. They enjoyed huge success at last year's Paris Olympics, with all three of their athletes bringing home medals, including Keeley Hodgkinson's stunning gold. So, jenny, let me take you back to the beginning. I'd love to know've just said, Sue, you know especially the broadcasting.
Jenny Meadows:That is something that I absolutely would never have been able to do without sports. I am the youngest of two children, so my brother, andrew, is three years older than me, and he used to do all the speaking for me in our family.
Sue Anstiss:Play other sports, but athletics was the one that you really loved or kind of what was your introduction to the sport?
Jenny Meadows:Well, really strangely and I don't agree with this I only ever did athletics. So, yeah, you know, and, and athletics, like I say, it really just made me come out of my shell almost so. Uh, mum and dad were great growing up with me and my brother, but you know, I always say I had a little bit of a sheltered life. Mum and dad weren't really confident, neither of them even drove. And yeah, I think my parents were really good. They really pushed us to see what our skill set was. But I really showed myself.
Jenny Meadows:As you know, every school, primary school has a sports day and of course it is running, isn't it? It's running, it's jumping, etc. And I was quick. So it was a case of once I eventually convinced my mum. You know, let me see how quick am I, you know, am I just the fastest in my school? Is there a club I can join, etc. And once I convinced my mum to take me along to the club. Um, I was just a runner and you know, obviously I do think that was the sport that I was always going to excel in, but it was always just athletics for me, and you started at 400, didn't you?
Sue Anstiss:And then you moved to 800. I went the other direction. I was an 800-meter runner and I moved to four and four hurdles. So I wonder what was the process for you in deciding? Was it just the one that you were best at, or did you enjoy one more than the other?
Jenny Meadows:Well, the really good thing for me is in my club it was great, you know you, you had to try everything. So I was never going to be good at throwing. You know, I'm only small, I'm 156 centimeters, so five foot one and a little bit. So, yeah, I was never going to throw, but I was quite explosive. Um, I was quite good at jumping, you know, high jump, long jump, etc. But I think it was. You know, I had that kind of fast twitch. I was pretty good at 100 and 200, pretty good at 400. But I think that 800 was a sweet spot. You know, I wasn't the greatest at cross country and I just think it's where all my skills came together at that. The shortest of the middle distance events.
Sue Anstiss:It was interesting researching you because I hadn't realised you were 5'1" and I must have known that you weren't extraordinarily tall. But when I was at school there was a girl I can remember her name, it was a long time ago for me, but Sarah Marchant who was not very tall but was super, super fast as a sprinter. So was there ever an option that you might have done more? 100, 200, the heptathlon, did you in the jumps, did you look at all of those things and so, just over time, you found your way to 800?.
Jenny Meadows:Yeah, I think I did. I think I always knew I was going to be restricted in a sense of you know I was never going to be good enough to do the high jump, for example. But you know, you look at Jessica Ennis. You know, absolutely unbelievable. You know it's like she's got springs in those legs. You know the height that she can clear. Obviously the bar height versus the actual height is incredible. But you know, really interesting.
Jenny Meadows:Talking about height, I actually think that really restricted my mindset for quite a long time in my career and it wasn't until somebody actually noticed when I used to stand on the start line I would actually go on my tiptoes. It was almost like I was trying to find a couple of extra inches. Like you know I belong here. But when I did do the 400s I definitely came to a point in my career where I would actually have to look up to the other competitors and I would be, like you know what, I am built, a little bit different. And when I looked over at the 800 girls I was kind of like I think if anyone kind of looked at my body shape, they looked how I looked they probably wouldn't have put me in that 400 meter category. So I think I naturally just evolved that 800, because that's where I thought it looked like I fitted and and obviously it matched my physiology as well.
Sue Anstiss:It's interesting, isn't it? I know broadcasters would call you the pocket rocket, and do you ever feel you are underestimated? Because I guess it's the internal side of how you felt about yourself. But did you use that to your advantage, almost as you're lining up on the start line and you're not as tall as some of the other girls there, did you feel that was a almost like a secret advantage for you too?
Jenny Meadows:I think it's worked both ways. I think when I was younger. You know we're all so confident when we're younger. Of course I'd love to meet the younger version of myself. You know, I started at my club January 1989, so it was a few months before my eighth birthday, and my mum always tells the tale of when I went along that first evening.
Jenny Meadows:The coach said to me what is it that you want to do? And you know, the fully grown version of me is five foot one a little bit, so I don't know how tall I was at just before age eight. But apparently my response was I want to go to the Olympics now. Yeah, he just meant what you want to do tonight. What group am I supposed to put you in? You know what. You want to go to the Olympics Now. He just meant what you want to do tonight. What group am I supposed to put you in? You know, what do you want to do? And I was there, the Olympics, you know I had that burning ambition and I think he just thought are you sprinting, are you doing endurance? You know, etc. And it really sat in his mind. And he said to my mom you know, I can see she's talented, but she's definitely got that mindset because she wants to go to the Olympics. But I think at that age, if I look back in my career, if someone would say at the end of your career, you'll win a European championships, you'll get a bronze in the world championships, I think I probably would have thought that was quite a disappointment. I'm going to win three of these Olympics, surely, and I'm going to the world record. But you know, you wish you could keep that mindset throughout life.
Jenny Meadows:And I do definitely think, coming from a very supportive family I have to say I know my mum is going to listen to this but a family that were very we had to step out of our comfort zone when I became a good athlete and my mum and dad, you know, didn't really know what that took. Like I say, you know they didn't drive, so we had to rely on public transport and I do think all of that gave me some unbelievable resilience. You know, when I turned up at the track I wasn't there to mess around for that hour. My mum and dad had, you know, invested in me financially and put their effort into it, and so I think I had all the determination that pocket rocket as I was younger. But then I think life experiences, you know, teach you things. You fall into those traps of feeling you're not as good as other people.
Jenny Meadows:And I definitely think in British athletics at the time you know as well as me, being small males were so dominant. So if I look back at it, there was a competition called the Europa Cup and the men and the women joined forces and the men, you know, one competitor per event, the same for the women, and they would actually do a separate league table and the men were the best in Europe by far and the women, you know, say there were 12 nations. They were kind of ninth or tenth so they would therefore bring the overall score maybe down to Great Britain came third. So I think, because there wasn't the outstanding role models, there was definitely some role models. You know, I know Sally Gunnell really well now. You know her husband coaches and you know Sally, barcelona 1992, I, I was 11, I remember that race. She beat sandra farm patrick from america and you know I definitely thought sally gunnell, you know she's gone and done it denise lewis, kelly holmes, but there just wasn't the amount of women, there wasn't the depth, they were kind of standouts where the men there were so, so many. So I do think the combination of you know that kind of theme that we had in Great Britain the men were dominant.
Jenny Meadows:I was small. It really did take something for me much later in my athletic career. You know, I started it just before age eight. I won my first global medal at 28 and I really think yeah, I think it was a mindset, I think I just thought it shouldn't happen to me. What makes me feel this? You know, young girl who's small and everybody else thinks that she even has has a place in this sport. So, you know, really interested in my career, I adopted that attitude for so long. But now, later in my coaching career, I feel like I've become the version of someone that I needed earlier in my life and that's something I think I'm able to to give to the athletes now. Did you work with a?
Sue Anstiss:sports psychologist at all in the early stages of your career, because that does feel like it's a almost a mental, not a blocker, but that kind of not believing in what you were clearly capable of no, I didn't.
Jenny Meadows:Um, you know, and sports science, and you know, all these support services that we've got the the, you know, widely used now, um, it actually wasn't till the year 2002, so August, when I won that world championship bronze medal. It wasn't till the March of that year where Trevor actually said to me there's a huge blocker here, jen, you know, I see you do incredible things on the track in training and it's just not transcending to competition. And I think I just really reached that low where I thought I could just train so much more and just keep going and in training, the evidence is there, but there's just something stopping me. So, yeah, it was literally March 2009.
Jenny Meadows:I just, you know, invested in in sports psychology. I worked with an amazing lady, sarah Broadhead, who used to work under Steve Peters, the chimp paradox, and I was just at that stage in my life where I was like I need something else and for me, sarah just made me understand how my brain was working. It was kind of like, oh my goodness, like now I understand what is stopping me from reaching those performances and it literally just changed my results going forwards.
Sue Anstiss:And if we go back to look at your career, who were the biggest rivals on the track at that time and how did they shape your career too, because that also contributes to the winning of medals and places in finals and so on.
Jenny Meadows:Yeah, it does. I mean at the time I always used to think of it as a negative, but it was a huge positive that I had such a good domestic rivalry. So there was three British athletes there was Marilyn Okoru, gemma Simpson and myself. So, fascinatingly, I only ever became the British champion once. Once, which a lot of people indoors, um, I was the British champion, I think seven, seven times. But indoors, um, sorry, outdoors, I yeah, there was something about those championships to me again which were a real, a real blocker. So I went to many championships but only actually won that one british title. But what I am proud about is once I went to all the championships. I was always the best performer at the championships. So trevor did a good job of getting making sure I best performer at the championships. So Trevor did a good job of making sure I peaked at the championships. So that brilliant domestic rivalry was great. I coach some athletes from other nations at the moment and they're the best in their nation and they almost haven't got that kind of hunger. They've not got that motivation when they go to the national championships because they know they're going to win it and you know it's it's, it's not an adrenaline-fueled weekend. So I am grateful for it, even though at the time I thought it was quite annoying. And then again, on the women's 800 meters, there were so many brilliant women internationally and there wasn't always a standout athlete. So you did know. You know, if I get this right, if I get my tactics right, if I get my strategy right, there's, there's medals up for grabs. So I do look back now at that, you know, healthy competition and think at the end of the day it did get the best out of me.
Jenny Meadows:Unfortunately, my career when I was at my very best was tainted with, with a few issues with a lot of people, doping. Obviously, the Russian doping scandal kind of broke just when I was towards the end of my career and I've had subsequent medal upgrades or not so which has been obviously quite frustrating. And then the whole differences in sexual development, you know, came around as well. So I kind of thought, you know, at the top of my career I probably didn't quite get the results that maybe I deserved. But the counter argument to that is it did really challenge me. I can look myself in the mirror and think there was nothing that I could do that could have prepared me any better. So I did me as well as I could do me. But yeah, there's probably silvers and bronzes in my medal cabinet and lots of bits where those results were quite tainted and they should have been a little bit better.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? I would say, in researching you, it kind of reminds you of where we were at that time. As you say, you were denied medals by athletes that you were then subsequently received them, but not in terms of being on a podium and having a national anthem, et cetera, but in some cases they were upgraded, but I hadn't even realised this. But the World Championships in 2011,. You reached the semifinals, but all three Russian athletes that denied you qualification for the final were then disqualified for doping, so you didn't even get a chance to get to the final. How do you even begin to deal with that as an athlete? I mean, you're very mature the way you phrased how. You did the best you could as an athlete, but where?
Jenny Meadows:you phrased how you did the best you could as an athlete, but did you ever question the point of it or think about stopping the sport? You know, really thankfully, I think I was quite naive to it. So again, maybe it is that mindset of well, who do I think I am to think I'm the best in the world, so anyone who's meeting me must be cheating. You know, that definitely was never in my mindset. But you know, I trained really, really, really hard. I generally believe there was no one who trained harder than than I trained. It was a huge, huge disappointment for me not to make that final in in the world championships in Daegu and I had a couple of sleepless nights after it and again, I didn't presume people had cheated. I really thought I failed so much so sad, isn't it?
Jenny Meadows:that's so sad, yeah, it's so sad. I look back on myself and this is what I'm saying I wish I would have had the version that I have now become for the other athletes, because it was very tough with Trevor and I, you know husband and wife and and coached an athlete, and that's not a situation that either of us ever really wanted. But I just think Trevor was the best person for me in my career because that other coach that I was looking for didn't exist. So I guess Trevor saw me where other people didn't see me and they didn't see my value. And coaching is about relationships and understanding, which he's great at doing. But it literally was kind of an emergency situation.
Jenny Meadows:After that world champs, you know, we got all the team together and we had a whole right look in your area, what did we miss? What about your area? What you know? What could we have done better? And we really after that were trying to change things. And you know we thought, ok, the bar has been risen and we've not, you know, stepped up to it.
Jenny Meadows:And then it was a couple of years later when it then was emerging about, you know, not just people cheating, but it was systematic doping. It was a whole country who you know were behind that, a whole national governing body, which you could never think that was even possible, and I think it was more. Then, when it hit me that I actually thought, oh my goodness, you know. After then I really pushed my body and I was already training enough and I thought I was missing something. And then that led to a couple of years of injuries and heartache etc. And I almost thought I was good enough, I didn't need to change anything. It's just people chose to do it the wrong way and thankfully, social media was still in its infancy, when, when I was an athlete, you know, I'd only hear a few comments and it's that old thing, isn't it? There's 100 comments, there's 99 positives and there was just one comment. I remember someone writing on a forum of oh, you know, jenny Meadows, she's getting this, you know, government money from the national lottery. She, she hasn't turned up. She should give it back. She should pay it back and it, you know, I felt a real responsibility.
Jenny Meadows:I, because I was getting paid to be a full-time athlete, I I took it seriously and I probably took it too seriously. Every hour of the day I was thinking what should I be doing? Is there something else I could I could be doing? I I would never relax and you know, watch a movie on the couch because I'd stretch and I'd be, you know, thinking what can I do? So I feel a little bit sad when I look back at it and I kind of think I didn't particularly enjoy my journey in the sport. I put a lot of pressure on myself, I felt a huge responsibility and you know, if I think about mental health, I probably wasn't in in the best mental health, but my parents had always just told me that you work hard, and I think I just worked hard, worked hard, worked hard, and no one ever told me you know what Jenny have a relax. I just worked hard and that's worked hard, and no one ever told me you know what Jenny have a relax.
Sue Anstiss:I just worked hard and that's obviously something you're bringing, as you said, bringing through to your athletes. Today we talk a lot about the success in elite sport being related to resilience and you, as you alluded, you certainly had your fair share of injuries and tough setbacks too. So are you able to use that now? I'm thinking about this actually in the last couple of weeks or so, with Keely's injury, ahead of the Keely Classic and missing out on that world record attempt, but has it changed? Has your experience of injuries and dealing with injuries helped how you're able to support your athletes today?
Jenny Meadows:100%. One of the first setbacks Keely had in her career it was the World Indoor Championships. It would have been three or four years ago now and I can really really remember it. I was actually at the event and I was commentating and I had kind of a 20 minute rest between sessions and she phoned me and she said OK, so I've got an issue with my quad. What would you have done when you were an athlete? And I said well, you know what? It's a very different question that you're asking me, because when I was an athlete I would have ran. But if you're asking me what I would recommend you to do is I don't think you should run. It's. It's a huge risk.
Jenny Meadows:If we look at this year and we look at the end of the year and if we look back and we think what were the highlights, we wouldn't be thinking about the world indoor championships, we'd be thinking about the outdoor equivalent. That is the biggest goal. And I think I've definitely been able to use experience and remove emotion. You know I give them a lot of emotion when they need it, but when it's decision making and it's, you know, strong leadership, I can just be really unemotional. And and the impressive thing about Keely is you know she's way less emotional than I was when I was an athlete the injury she's got now, you know, um, we helped her with it. We went to her apartment and we spoke to her about it and you know she cried. She cried a lot and that's good, because I like to see that. I like to see someone passionate, I like it that Keely's the Olympic champion and she's not resting on a laurel, she's looking to do the next thing. She wants to be one of the best of all time and maybe that's why she is going to be one of the best of all time. And maybe that's why she is going to be one of the best of all time because she has got that switch off where she can be professional and then she knows she needs to listen to her team and let them go away and do all the work for her.
Jenny Meadows:I kind of really didn't have that, that team, and because it was me and Trevor together, I kind of lived in that team and I couldn't really walk away from it all the time. So it was quite suffocating at times. But that wasn't Trevor, that was me, it was my hard work and not being able to separate it. But yeah, as a coach, I'm definitely a lot better at being able to say to people no, do that go away. Be a human. We want you to be happy. Keely's gone off and done lots of really exciting things in london, but actually I think I'm still the one with a bit of an empty stomach and I'm thinking, oh, you know, it's such a shame that she's injured and this world record was on and still I'm watching her do all these amazing things, you know, which is great, but I think I'm the one who's still suffering from the injury more than she is.
Sue Anstiss:We hear a lot about sportswomen and men struggling with that transition from being an athlete into life after sport. So how was that experience for you personally? Did you know it was time to retire when you did?
Jenny Meadows:Yeah, I did and I cope with it really well actually, and you always want to go out of the sport, in your own terms. So, because I identified as an athlete you know I did it for 28 years I always used to think I can't imagine not being an athlete. I literally cannot imagine waking up and that's not what I do. And I felt like that for a long period of my life, probably 25 of the 28 years. But I think age comes to all of us, unfortunately. So I retired quite late. It was especially for 800 meters. I was 35. But the next generation had come along and you know I could see it. Um, I'm really proud. The last year of my career I still get did get an Olympic qualification time, but nobody else in the world did who were my age. So that's, that's pretty impressive. But I think it's when I had the V35 next to my name. You know, veteran I think that's a terrible term In a lot of sports and in athletics they call it master's athletics. I think master is such a nicer term for it. But yeah, I think it was like veteran, oh gosh, right, okay, I'm a veteran now.
Jenny Meadows:And my body did start finding it hard to recover between training sessions did start finding it hard to recover. Between training sessions. I picked up a few kind of muscular injuries which I'd never had in my career, ever. It was just like my body was telling me. But ultimately I do look back. I think I did retire out of heartbreak. So the story about the Russians doping broke in 2014 and I retired in 2016. And I think as well as I coped with it at the time, I think there was something in my head just stopping me from going that extra mile in training. It's like I lost the belief. Extra mile in training. It's like I lost the belief. Some of the training sessions that you do are very tough and I almost just couldn't push myself to that point where it was really going to hurt me because I think I was protecting a broken heart.
Sue Anstiss:That's so interesting, isn't it? And I can. You can absolutely see that, can't you giving absolutely your all for everything when it's not quite as you always felt it was? Did you was coaching something you always felt you might go into? Is it? Was it something you're aware of? I didn't realize you were 35 I feel like I have researched you, I promise but I didn't realize you were 35 when you retired. But had you thought about coaching?
Jenny Meadows:I mean, you've been a bit involved in coaching anyway, yeah and strangely, it was the last thing that I ever thought I would do. Oh, wow, yeah. So I remember having a conversation with Trevor. So in British athletics you have your level one, level two and level three awards. So I did level one when I was 21, straight off the back of doing a university course, and then the next year, at 22, I did level two and then I think I was around about 28. And I thought you know what? I might as well finish this off. I'm a perfectionist. I'll do level three. And it made me feel more secure in myself.
Jenny Meadows:If ever I was doing any kind of mentoring or mentorship or any master class of coaching, if someone would ask me to go along and just show them drills and talk, I'd actually think, well, I've got a coaching qualification. You know, I'm not just turning up as an athlete, but living with a coach. You know, trevor, when I retired I kind of thought we were both retiring. I don't know why I thought that. And then he said to me that summer, obviously I'll still be coaching and I thought, oh, oh, gosh, right, okay. So it was the next year where Trevor was still coaching and then he was asking my advice a little bit more, asking me to mentor a few of the athletes. British Athletics asked me to be a team coach at some of the junior championships, so working with the 18 and 19 year olds, and I think it just reminds you that actually, what you know is the product of 30 years and something that you take for granted is actually gold dust to somebody else. So I didn't know that other people didn't know things you know. So for me, all of a sudden, I thought, oh, I'm quite valuable in this role. People want to hear about it. So a lot of what I did was periodic, probably joining the group, which was in 2019, which is a really nice way that she joined the group, actually, and it shows a lot about Keely. So we only live six to seven miles away from each other, so it's always strong women.
Jenny Meadows:Keely's mum, rachel, reached out to me I think we were friends on Facebook or something like that and she started asking me a few questions and not a pushy parent at all. I really liked her tone. You know she didn't tell me oh, I've got this amazingly talented daughter. She was just asking me a few questions and I researched Keely and I thought she what? She wasn't a standout. She was kind of fourths and fifths in the country and didn't really get on the podium many times. Or if she did, she might snatch a bronze.
Jenny Meadows:And you know, she asked to join the group and as soon as I met her I thought she has what it takes. She just had this lovely demeanor about her, a respectfulness, but she was just a winner. Do you know, when you actually just see somebody and think at age 17, she's got all of these attributes which I wouldn't have had at 17. And then she'd only just learned to drive. But her mom said to her right, if you want to change groups and you want, you know, trevor to coach you, you have to go and have a word with your current coach.
Jenny Meadows:And you know she drove to Joe and Margaret's house, who are absolutely brilliant, and they were in their 80s, and she drove there ready to have this very difficult conversation with them, which at 17 must have been very tough. But they're amazing. And straight away they stopped her and they actually said actually keely, we're actually thinking we can't take you to that next level. So we're thinking that maybe you should ask jenny and trevor could, could they help you? Which is so, so wonderful that that happened, but just the very fact that her mum didn't hold her hand and say, keely, you need to go and do this and Keely was prepared to do that. I actually getting to know Keely more. It made me want to get more and more involved in the coaching and Trevor would ask my advice. I've obviously walked those steps before that Keely was going through. So it really for me had been a slow burner to get involved, and just because we've got nice athletes in the group it's made me want to give more and more of my time.
Sue Anstiss:And how has that relationship transitioned too? Because obviously you have different dynamics, don't you? You're couple, you've got your parents, and then also you've gone from being that sort of coach athlete relationship to now co-coaching. So has that been easy to transition that through?
Jenny Meadows:yeah, and I've got to say you know, trevor is brilliant. You know for for females to succeed, you need really good males who are prepared to, you know, see the strengths in you and see the qualities in you. And Keely always says she can't be coached by a normal coach and I would laugh and I think what does that mean? But over the years, I think it means someone who's not just talking about high performance all the time, someone who actually knows you talking about high performance all the time, someone who actually knows you, they know your strengths, they know your weaknesses, they know when to talk to you about training and when to absolutely leave it, and you know you're not in that headspace today. Also when to approach you about something, when to not approach you and give you a call later in the day, etc. And I think it is.
Jenny Meadows:You know, a lot of people say those soft skills and I hate that, because communication, emotional intelligence they are not soft skills, they're really important skills and I think that's the difference between really strong coach-athlete relationships and being able to put the human first. So I do really thank Trevor and you know, if he was listening to this he'd be like don't, don't, thank me. He's really grateful that I've become more and more involved in a journey and I guess the one thing that I have probably done and this has only been the last 12 months is, you know, I've kind of said to Trevor like we can't keep saying this is Trevor and Jen's group, we. We almost need a name and an identity and a brand. And right at the end of my athletics career, the last two years before I retired, I was thinking you know what am I going to do next? And it absolutely was not coaching in my head. So I did a master's degree in um sports marketing and business management.
Sue Anstiss:Wow, like you do. Yeah, just did a master's yeah and I did it.
Jenny Meadows:I did it part-time, just like the last two years in my career, so I think I've got that skill set. So I've said to Trevor you know, we've decided to call ourselves Emma Lubbin track club, which is the postcode of where we're training in manchester at sports city, and keely herself has, like, really got behind that you know, and, and in fact it was keely's dad, um dean, who who came up with that name and came up with a logo with, you know, the worker bee which manchester as a city of adopted, and and again, I guess it's my values, which also, uh, the same as the Hodgkinson values of working hard. You know everyone in Manchester is busy as bees that's where it comes from, and Keely herself always says nothing is given, everything is is earned. You know, you can have talent but you've got to have the hard work and, like we say, the resilience and the beliefs and the values around you. So I think it has just kind of grown quite organically that I've just come more and more into the group.
Jenny Meadows:Trevor is definitely the one who does all the plans and he decides.
Jenny Meadows:You know a monthly plan that every athlete gets, but he never gives those out without me sense checking them, um, because I guess I'm the one who's who's run those sessions, or sometimes he has new ideas and you know, 99% of the time they're absolutely brilliant.
Jenny Meadows:But the odd time I look at them and I can kind of close my eyes and I think, okay, if an athlete done that session Tuesday and then you put that Thursday, oh, that's going to be quite, quite tough to get yourself back up mentally and you know, then know, then I'll just say, oh, could we spread that out a little bit?
Jenny Meadows:You know, instead of two days turnaround, like I think four days turnaround will be a much better result for that session sound great. And I also think he's really good because he also allows the athletes almost to to have that as well. You never want an athlete obviously gaining full control and then you know, picking the sessions that they should do. But we definitely adopted that kind of safe space. So if an athlete does get their training plan and they look at something and it's something that really worries them and stands out and maybe they've had a bad experience on a session previously, we're really proud that they can come to us and say, you know, I just want to check the understanding behind this and we're very open to that, which is maybe why Keely doesn't think we're normal coaches.
Sue Anstiss:And how much do you think they've benefited the athletes?
Sue Anstiss:There are 25 athletes or so in your group now the 25 yeah yes, there is, and you're obviously having huge success and you've we've mentioned keely, but georgia bell and sarah healy and lewis davian was about half of your athletes last year had international representation at senior and junior. How much do you think having a male and female coach leading that group helps them as well? And obviously we're doing a lot of work within the space of female coaches and and promoting that too, but that kind of having both, do you think that has a big impact for your athletes?
Jenny Meadows:yeah, absolutely I do, and I think part of the reason that I never thought I would go into coaching and you know, in athletics is there aren't a lot of female coaches, especially not in the high performance area.
Jenny Meadows:We have a brilliant resource called the Power of 10. And you can go and you can look at athletes in every discipline in Great Britain, which is great and you do see, it's the younger age groups, it's the under 11, the under 13s, the under 15s, and there's quite a lot of athletes who have female coaches. But then you go up to the senior team and at world championship level. If Great Britain would take maybe 60 athletes to the world championships, there's probably three of them coached by females, which is really poor and it's not good enough. In America, for example, in the collegiate system, there's so many female coaches and I went out to Boston and New York recently and just seeing the female coaches operate in that area was so nice for me to see, because definitely the British indoor championships that we've had recently I literally can see. Probably again, you know, less than five women in that space versus 100 men. It's so important.
Sue Anstiss:It's so important that they're seen, isn't it Just even being there? I think it's like 10, 11% of the Olympic elite coaches are female, and it hasn't changed in the last 10, 15 years either, has it?
Jenny Meadows:it hasn't and there's some amazing women and you know I've definitely had conversations with, with some women who have had athletes, you know, coming on to some of the junior teams, those under 20 European or world junior teams, and you know they've said to me oh, you know, I'm doing really well, but I'll have to pass those athletes on soon and I've literally grabbed them by the arm physically and be like, no, you're doing such a great job, why, what are you missing? Oh well, you know I know there's going to be a male come over to me at some point and say that I've never took anyone to that level. But it has to start somewhere. Nobody has ever took anyone to that next level before you have. So it has to be like that.
Jenny Meadows:So I think in our training group, um, there are some people, naturally, who would come to me before Trevor and vice versa, and I think it's just either personality or somebody who you, you know, maybe just feel a little bit more confident with. I know Georgia Bell, for example, georgia Hunter Bell. Now she's got married, you know she calls us Jeff, jen and Trevor. She's kind of no matter who I go to, they give me the same answer, they're on the same page. So she'll just. We've got a little whatsapp group with her and you know what it's literally who's available, who's going to respond first, and she goes with it. She doesn't need to double check, like, does the other one think the same? Like, whoever gives her the answer, she's like you know I'll, I'll go with it.
Jenny Meadows:So I do think it is great because there's lots of different personalities. Everyone's completely different and if somebody just resonates better with the other one, we don't take offense. Keely might FaceTime me about something that she's doing in her life and it's nothing to do with training. And you know, sometimes I tell Trevor, sometimes I don't. It's just a really nice environment. But I've actually become really passionate about driving this female coaching space because you absolutely have to see it and I was quite inspired when I went to America to see. You know a lot of their teams at collegiate level. They'll have a male team and a female team and it doesn't necessarily have to be the female is the female coach, but in every single collegiate team in the US there's a female coach and I think visibility is so, so important.
Sue Anstiss:And we're so grateful to you for being a patron of the Women's Sport Collective, a new coaching hub for female coaches. I messaged you and you kind of came back the same day and said yes, which was amazing, of course. And we have had an incredible response from women across a whole range of sports, which is brilliant. But, as we say, we've seen that progress, but we're not seeing it necessarily in that gender equality at the top level of coaches. Really.
Sue Anstiss:So, if you could, if you had a magic wand and you can do anything and I realise it's a really complex question to ask because it's about it's not just the women, it is about the ecosystem that exists. It is about the ecosystem that exists in this. But but are there things that you've seen, especially within athletics, that need to change to enable us to see more of those women retaining those athletes and that? Sorry, I'm just jumping here, but that's really interesting, isn't it? That whole? I hadn't even realized that recently until I've immersed myself more in this space, but I think it's being poached by others from you know their coaches that they've had for a long time, and then those athletes feeling that they, they're not going to progress on through. It was a lovely athlete, wasn't it recently who came back to his female coach in Wales and then had huge success?
Sue Anstiss:Jeremiah Azou yeah, I should know his name, I don't and her name but it was a fabulous that was celebrated like actually, of course she could take you there, but actually being um kind of sold, something that's unattainable through a female coach.
Jenny Meadows:Yeah, I think it is that storytelling, because I think it is. There are so many positive stories but they are just not really told. And I am one, obviously. You know I never feel like we should push women up just for the sake of it, but I do think there has been some amazing initiatives where we are trying to empower people and we are trying to give women women that voice. So I do think pushing women's coaching certificates, for example, is is great. I'm obviously willing to, to share my experiences and maybe even my experience of saying you know, I've been accepted in this space. Well, I presume I've been accepted, I've just pushed myself into this space.
Sue Anstiss:You've just won the BBC Sports Personality Coach of the Year. I think you have been accepted.
Jenny Meadows:And that in itself is so, so lovely, because the last couple of weekends I've been at championships and so many parents, fans, coaches, officials the parents fans, coaches, officials have said how amazing that was, one for the sport of athletics to be recognized. And look, there's no doubt coaching in the sport of athletics is not paid very well. There's you're a volunteer and keely's first olympic medal was me and trevor were volunteers. We found a couple of ways to be able to fund ourselves, but we're not being paid money. If you were, if you were in in a bigger sport. So I think that's been amazing for coaches, because so many coaches have said that's give them a real boost and really helped. You know, help them to think oh okay, if I do well in the sport, it will be recognized, it will be recognized nationally.
Jenny Meadows:But I think, going back to that female space, I think it is just women empowering women, just those informal conversations where I say I physically grab people by the hand and go no, stop it, don't adopt that mindset. You can, you can be absolutely amazing. And I think the Jeremiah Rizou with his coach Helen is one of those great stories and I'm glad that it got to you, sue. So that has obviously been there and that's publicized, which is great, but I think it is just more women just being prepared to be in that space and, just again, you know, what this whole podcast is about is getting those messages out to people that women have got so many great skills and Trevor is grateful that I am helping him because he cannot do this on his own. We've got a great number of athletes and, like I say, athletes differ through values, beliefs, things that they've been through in life, and having that male and that female is just a brilliant opportunity for people to gravitate towards what they need to get the best out of themselves.
Sue Anstiss:And what's your ambition for the future, for you personally as Jenny, in terms of your own development and evolution and I know that you're also a mother and you've got the M11 track club and so on but have you got ambition to get more coaching qualifications and to do more in that space?
Jenny Meadows:yeah, it's interesting because I think sometimes you do forget yourself and only a couple of weeks ago I said to Trevor sometimes I have to remember that I'm Jenny, so I used to be Jenny Meadows the athlete. Then I was kind of Keely's coach, trevor's wife, because Trevor was getting all the plaudits at first before I was fully engrossed in the coaching, and then Arabella's mum. So I'm doing some. I'm doing a little bit of work with the BBC on some of the athletics and it's something where I think you know what I need this for myself. People do remember me as an athlete and I think it's people appreciate the whole full circle because I think they do know I didn't always get the results I deserved because of people who've chose to cheat. So now people think it's a. You know, a few people have reached out and said it's just so nice that I'm now involved with Keely and she's getting a medal. So the whole experience of me isn't being wasted and there is some things that I would like to do.
Jenny Meadows:So so I've been speaking to British Athletics recently. We've just put together a coaching group. We never had a coaching group before and I think I was only one of two women in the room. There was about 50. But you know I was one of the spokespeople who was talking to the wider group. So we're a group of nine coaches. There's two women on that group myself and another coach, kate Rooney, who's a pole vault coach. She's based at Loughborough and we were speaking to the wider group about what we would like to do and one of the things that I do really want to push is just having more females in this space.
Jenny Meadows:I feel I'm definitely an all or nothing person, so I'm either in it or I'm not. So I fully integrated myself into coaching. I even changed my bio on Twitter X and I put coach and my brother even stopped me and said oh, you took things off there. You know you've not put that you're a commentator or that you host events anymore, but I guess it's because I'm really just putting myself into this coaching space now. So maybe it's a mindset change for me that I have to say that's what I'm doing, so then I can excel at that.
Jenny Meadows:But definitely getting more female coaches working together, them feeling that they can move up to that next level. It's not going to notice, which is great. You know that BBC Sports Personality Award is kind of people in Europe know about it and I'm definitely getting contacted. Now. Can I speak at a European conference and can I go and talk about this? And obviously I'm giving as much as I can to my athletes, but I am trying to find space for that Because athletes it's their career and as much as I'm helping them and I'm a coach, it is about legacy and if I don't do my bit while I've got this opportunity, then I'm not paving the way for others. So, yeah, I'm desperately trying to make sure I find enough time to to fuel this agenda as well.
Sue Anstiss:That's very exciting, isn't it? And I do remember hearing you talk about Keeley from Paris last year. I think they interviewed you a number of times when they're coming back and talking and so on and I was just wondering what it was like being in Paris as a coach in comparison to how it was as an athlete. Is it as enjoyable, more enjoyable? Do you get more nervous?
Jenny Meadows:More enjoyable because I did used to put a lot of pressure on myself. Um, with Keely I never get nervous because I just know she's got that mindset. And actually the day of the Olympic final we almost had a little fallout because she was telling me that she was really going to go for it in the final and try and run a PB. She was trying to run one minute 53. And you never want to tell an athlete they don't think you can do that. But you know, I did put it to her that that was her third race of the championships. It wasn't a one-off race like a Diamond League. She wasn't going to be paced and the goal was to win that gold medal. And yeah, she kind of wasn't entirely happy with what I said. But then, warming up for the race, she was kind of like oh yeah, I can feel that semi-final in my legs, etc. So it was definitely a case of me meeting her family before the race, her family and friends.
Jenny Meadows:So many people came out and I, they were all nervous etc. And I was like guys, look, she's gonna do it. And they were like, oh, thank goodness she've come and told us. I was like she's gonna do it, I'm not even bothered like. I 100% know that she's gonna do this and we've focused on it so much. Everything's in place, it's great and to this day I have not cried. I just can't. I've got no emotion, which is so sad because she just did what I expected. But Georgia, on the other hand, honestly, I acted in such an unprofessional way that I didn't even know I was possible. I was stood on the seat screaming and people behind me were like why is that woman doing?
Jenny Meadows:and I literally had to turn around, go oh, I think, just won the bronze medal. She just won the bronze medal and I was way more excited about that because it was exciting. It was something that was a hope, but definitely not, you know, um, absolutely pinning my hopes on it, and for me, that was the sheer joy of being able to, yeah, just enjoy something and experience something, and I could not have been more excited if that was the sheer joy of being able to, yeah, just enjoy something and experience something, and I could not have been more excited if that was me. So that shows me that I'm so excited by this sport. It's still got me, it still grabs me and that's why I want to invest into it.
Sue Anstiss:Thank you so much to jenny for sharing her story. We look forward to working with her as we build the coaching hub at the women's sport collective. You can find out more on our website at fearlesswomencouk if you'd like to hear from more extraordinary women like jenny. There are over 200 episodes of the game changers podcast that are all free to listen to on podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. Guests have included female coaches from a range of sports, including rugby, football, cricket, netball, hockey, tennis, cycling and canoeing, along with elite athletes, entrepreneurs, broadcasters, scientists, journalists, ceos all women who are changing the game in sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over 10,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us.
Sue Anstiss:The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you once again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective with a National Lottery Award, and also to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such a brilliant job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my lovely colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. You can find the Game Changers on all podcast platforms, so please do follow us now and you won't miss out on future episodes. Come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me at sue anstis. The game changes. Fearless women in sport.
