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The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Sarah Massey: Mastering Mega Sports Events
What does it take to lead some of the biggest sporting events in the world?
In this episode, we sit down with Sarah Massey, Managing Director of the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025, to uncover the strategy, ambition and passion behind running global sports championships.
With over 30 years of experience, Sarah has played pivotal roles in organising major sporting events, including Olympic and Commonwealth Games and World Championships, as well as working at the very top of global sports including athletics, rugby, tennis and hockey.
Before taking this key role at World Rugby, Sarah was CEO of the World Athletics Championship Oregon22, having also worked at the International Hockey Federation (FIH) and the International Tennis Federation (ITF).
From her early days at Loughborough University to managing international sporting events, Sarah shares her journey through the world of sports leadership. She talks candidly about the challenges of organising major global events, the importance of building an inclusive and high-performing team, and the key to balancing multiple stakeholders in an ever-evolving sports landscape.
Sarah also reflects on the impact of gender equality in sport.
We explore how the Women’s Rugby World Cup 2025 is set to break records in attendance and visibility as Sarah offers a behind-the-scenes look at what fans can expect from the tournament, how cities and communities are embracing the event, and what legacy she hopes it will leave for women’s rugby worldwide.
If you’re passionate about sports management, leadership or the advancement of women's sports, this episode offers valuable perspectives from one of the industry's leading figures.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down the barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast through a National Lottery Award.
Sue Anstiss:My guest today is Sarah Massey, the Managing Director of the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025, who's had a much celebrated career leading major international sporting events for over 30 years. Before taking the significant role with world rugby, Sarah was CEO of the World Athletics Championship, Oregon 22, where she led an event that set new benchmarks in broadcast reach, digital engagement and fan experience. Sarah's extensive career includes senior roles at the International Hockey Federation and the International Tennis Federation, along with leadership at a wide range of high-profile international and multi-sports events and organisations. As Managing Director for the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025, Sarah aims to deliver a tournament that not only showcases brilliant international rugby showcases brilliant international rugby but also serves as a catalyst for increasing the sport's relevance and accessibility to new audiences, particularly women and girls. So, Sarah, let's start by going back to Loughborough University, which is where we first met. What were you studying there and, I guess, what were your hopes at that time for what you might do in the future? Thanks, so yeah.
Sarah Massey:Thanks, so yeah, I studied. I actually did a straight management degree at Loughborough. So management science.
Sarah Massey:I think I'd always longed to do a sports science degree. So I decided after the first year that I might change. But I think you realise that, actually changing courses and then starting all over again. So I was one of those Loughborough University students who wasn't dressed in purple violet the entire time but wished I probably had been. But actually, looking back, just really pleased now I did a straight management degree, majored in marketing and just got a very good breadth of of business and commercial acumen as a result. So I think that stood me in good stead. I think I always knew I wanted to work in sport. Always knew I wanted to work in either the management or marketing of sport. So actually stayed on at Loughborough and did a master's degree bizarrely in rugby, looking at how you could translate some of the marketing and management tools and practices from business into rugby union club. So traveled the world doing that project for a year's master's, then wrote up a yeah, a big dissertation on that. So yeah, very early step into rugby actually, as it as it turns out.
Sue Anstiss:I love that. The first question, and I didn't know that I should have known that about you, but I didn't. I didn't realize that your master's focused on that. And what was your sport at the time? Did you? Were you playing sport while you're at Loughborough?
Sarah Massey:Yeah, so I was a hockey player and a squash player, um, and also did lots of running and actually that's took up running actually more seriously once I'd actually left Loughborough, so wasn't actually part of the track team there, but yeah, very much, very much then got into running when I, when I left and towards the latter end of being at Loughborough, and that's uh, yeah, that's where I focused my time and energy. Now in sport is, uh, is in running. That's my, that's my passion and my love.
Sue Anstiss:It's so good to hear, isn't it? And you obviously have worked we'll come on to talk about that in a moment but you've worked in hockey and other elements of those sports as well too. But you've had this incredible career, as I mentioned, in instruction across multiple sports events and organisations. But where did it all begin? So, that kind of coming out of university, what was the first role that you took?
Sarah Massey:so I think because I'd done my master's project in rugby, I'd obviously got to know quite a few people that worked in the sport and there was an opportunity for a marketing coordinator at the rugby football union, say bizarrely based at twickenham in an office just across the road from where we are now, and did a couple of years with them in the marketing department. It was at the time where rugby was literally just turning professional, so still very much an amateur sport at that point. Um, but really looking after most, looking after the sponsors and hospitality and some of the debentures that were being sold when they first sold the benches for the first, the first refurbishment of the stand that they had at Twickenham. So yeah, sort of cut my teeth in rugby right from the very beginning in a in a marketing role and loved it then when actually carried on in rugby.
Sarah Massey:In the beginning part of my career I left there to work on an agency that was dealing with or managing and implementing the super 10 competition back then I know that's now the super series much, much more advanced and went out to South Africa, worked out there, worked the 1995 rugby world cup in South Africa so pivotal, obviously with Nelson Mandela and Francois Pienaar, one of the probably, even despite everything I've done in my career still probably the moment that still brings me out in. Yeah, just an incredible moment and one that very few people have got the opportunity to experience. But, yeah, I was lucky enough to be there at the final. So, yeah, amazing.
Sue Anstiss:That's incredible, isn't it? And how does it feel being back at Twickenham? Now, as you say, like 30 years on, you've come back to Twickenham. I wonder how much has changed in the organisation in World Rugby, especially, I guess, my interest in terms of that gender parity. But does it feel like they're different organisations to where they were 30 years ago?
Sarah Massey:Yeah, I mean very much so, and I don't think there's actually anybody left there that I worked. I worked with England rugby all those all those years on. Yeah, I mean very different organization. I mean there was very few women that were working. I mean no, no women really back then in senior positions within rugby, yeah, and very few of us within the organization as a whole. But I mean, again, it was it was much smaller back then as well. We're talking 91 when I was there, so very much smaller in terms of its commercialism. As I said, it was very much more of a. It was an amateur sport back then, hadn't?
Sue Anstiss:it was sort of the era that it was turning professional, that's so exciting I guess incredible to see that transition that you've seen and then coming back into it. You've obviously then gone on and we'll highlight some of those as we go through, but you've had this extraordinary career working and leading these large scale international events. I wonder, when you come into an event of that kind now, what's the first thing you're planning and thinking about when you're looking at a global sports event as a CEO coming in, are there key elements?
Sarah Massey:I think the key for me has always been is what your strategy is really, defining what you're trying to achieve with the event. I know lots of people talk about, yeah, writing strategies, leaving them on a shelf. They all get dusty and you sort of dust them off every so often and look what's in them. It's always been really key for me to work out what that event stands for, what the strategy is, what we're aiming to achieve, and then setting a roadmap of how we go about doing it. That's what I would always do going into a role like that. I mean, obviously it's about growing audiences, it's about increasing participation, but unless you have that hanging together as one overarching strategy, then I think you don't necessarily succeed as much as you would do without one.
Sue Anstiss:And obviously you keep coming back for more. So you're clearly loving it and enjoying it, but what are the elements of managing those major events that you most enjoy?
Sarah Massey:I think when people say to me you know, what do you bring? What are you good at? I think I have. Yeah, I have become seemingly experienced quite a lot in managing large, complex projects with lots of different stakeholders, with an immovable deadline. And I love that, because there's nothing better than knowing you've got an end goal in sight, you've got fixed deadline. Everything has to be done to meet that.
Sarah Massey:And just dealing with all of the complexity and the various different stakeholders along the way and building a team I mean, when I started at Rugby World Cup back in May 2023, that was just me. Obviously there was a lot of people at world rugby who'd been progressing the tournament up until then, but it was then me opportunity to then build your team, build your senior team, and then obviously they've then started recruiting people from there. But just seeing it all come together, you can. You can define your own own pathway as well. You can define what you want your culture to be. You can really build it again according to the strategy that you've built. But you then build around that with every single different element. You're not inheriting really anything at all when you go into one of those projects.
Sue Anstiss:So interesting, isn't it. I was going to ask you about the team, because you've obviously got some pretty incredible people within that top senior team. You say they're now recruiting others too. Is there a key, would you say, to building a strong event team, especially when you're working internationally, you're going kind of into, perhaps, a country or a place that you haven't worked before. Is there any advice that you would give to how you go about recruiting? Because obviously they're the key, aren't they the key foundation that that senior team?
Sarah Massey:yeah, I mean obviously very different between doing it in a country where you are more familiar with people's CVs and backgrounds and what they've done before, than doing it internationally, where it's very much more difficult. But I think you get used to knowing exactly what you want from the roles that you're you're hiring. That's the same. I mean it's pretty much the same sort of role you're hiring. In each role, obviously, different people are going to fit it, but you get to know exactly what you're looking for and what experience you want and also just how you want the team to work together. So, looking at different personalities that each person in the senior team is going to bring and making sure that you've got a really good mix of backgrounds, experiences, diversity, lived and people that you know that can meet that.
Sarah Massey:But yeah, we've got a great senior team at the moment. So we've got there's five of us. We're all female, which is really important to us, I think, to make sure that we are showing we're being role models and making sure that we are showing walking exactly what we're saying and people quite often ask me about. Was it intentional? No, we didn't go out and recruit a full senior team of of women. We employed, the best people for the job and the best people for the job that fitted what we were looking for, um happened to be those four other women, so we have rebecca leach, um jemma wiggs, amy bywater luttman and ashwini rao, who just joined us as well. So, yeah, really, really, really strong team. We work really closely together. I've built up a really good trust and relationship and loyalty between us as well, and everybody's very clear on what their individual role and responsibility is, what they have to deliver according to the strategy and, yeah, we, we make sure we keep together very much as a team.
Sue Anstiss:You mentioned stakeholders there. I had, uh was thinking I was going to ask you about that. And in researching I was thinking who are those stakeholders? And I was thinking I was going to ask you about that. And in researching it I was thinking who are those stakeholders? And I was thinking, oh my good, international teams and the nations and the sponsors and the regional hosts for this event too, but also the broadcasters and government and the Home Union. So how do you balance Because obviously they've all got different calls on your time and wanting your input, etc. Is that a real I mean I imagine it must be a real challenge to balance those? So what have you learned over time of keeping them all happy and engaged?
Sarah Massey:I mean a lot of it's communication, making sure you're constantly updating them, making sure they're part of the journey with you. So again, it comes back to being really clear about what your strategy is, what you're trying to achieve, what your commitments are, what your KPIs are, what your metrics are are, and asking people what their objectives are. So when we did the initial strategy development, we also went out and talked to all of the different stakeholders about their objectives, what they wanted to get out of the event. And you know you're going to have to compromise to a certain extent because not everybody is going to be able to meet their individual objectives. But it's how you then put that into the framework, how you then measure and evaluate what you're doing and making sure that at each point in time you're speaking to the stakeholders the whole time, taking them on the journey with you I know that's a bit of a cliche, but it's true and making sure that if there's something that is going, you know, potentially in a different direction or you're having to pivot slightly from what you're doing, it's just making sure that you're letting them know every part of the way.
Sarah Massey:We're very lucky that on our board, so our board has got a really good setup. So we have representation from World Rugby, from England Rugby and from UK Sport. We're a part-funded UK Sport event, so we have representation from UK Sport and a representation from somebody who's been appointed by DCMS onto that board, and then we have four independents who are brilliant people and some amazing, powerful women as leaders that are on our board as our independents our chair, jill Whitehead, who yeah huge CV and credibility that she brings and she's just really driven forward that board as the chairperson, and then we have an EDI advisor on our board as well. So Kunle has joined us as our EDI advisor, making sure that we're always looking at diversity, inclusion and equity in everything that we do.
Sue Anstiss:Excellent, and you mentioned that immovable deadline, which is something that's fabulous about big events, but I guess for many people that might also be slightly intimidating. So do you think it needs a certain personality type to want to work with that pressure, and is that something early in your career you recognised, you loved and you had the kind of personality and the style for yeah, and I think, yeah, the event industry is not for everybody.
Sarah Massey:I mean, some people don't like the ambiguity that we work in and some people get more anxious about the fact that it's an immovable deadline and along the way there's so many different milestones to meet and I think people really thrive in it and some people, yeah, it's really not for them. And I think you work that out pretty early on when people are working for you and you learn to recognize that. So some of the questions we would ask in interviews around working in ambiguity, working to pressurize deadlines, you know working outside of office hours, working at weekends on different events, you know observing different events, going to different meetings. So, yeah, we pretty much stress test our interviewing approach to make sure that we are are finding those people that really thrive. And then you find those people who maybe haven't worked in events before who, once they do, thrive in it as well because they they, they really like it. And it's interesting because so many different events talk about how many days you've got to go to the event. So you know we have a countdown clock in the office which probably now 188, 187 days to go to the event and that can bring out a certain anxiousness in people to think about.
Sarah Massey:I've only got that many days to go and somebody had said to me that dame katherine granger, she uh went to talk to the birmingham commonwealth games organization back in 2022 and talked about the fact that, as an elite athlete, she would be counting up to when the competition was not down and she would talk about the fact that it was so many days of that you can improve, that you can get better days of opportunity till you get to your race or your event. So we've adopted that. Um. Katherine granger came to speak to or we got her to do a little video piece for us, um, just prior to our christmas party last year, where she came on and talked about the fact that you can be a count-upper or a count-downer, but the count-uppers are looking at days of opportunity and improvement to get there and count-downers are looking at how many days we've got to go. So it's quite a nice approach that we adopted from her.
Sue Anstiss:I love that. I love that. Yeah, just switching it, isn't it Reframing it? And it's suddenly so much more powerful. You're obviously managing global sports events requires strong leadership. So I wonder how you'd describe your leadership style. I feel like I've known you obviously known you for a long time, as an individual, as a woman and a friend, but in terms of your leadership style, how would your team describe you? How do you feel your leadership style has evolved?
Sarah Massey:Yeah, it's evolved a lot. I mean, I would say that people would talk about me as being very driven. I have a purpose, I know exactly what we're trying to achieve and I think that comes with 30 years of experience of doing it. You, you know what's important and you know what needs to be done, and you also know that when some things come across your desk, it's okay. You know, we know that's going to play out, don't worry, it's going to be okay. So I think I think they would say that I lead with a lot of conviction, drive, purpose.
Sarah Massey:I'm also passionate about the EDI we have in our organisation. So, from a cultural point of view, making sure that we are fostering that culture of belonging and of inclusivity and, in particular, with what we're doing at the moment, we are being unapologetic about the fact that this is all about the promotion of women and girls and providing opportunities for women and girls in everything that we're doing across the board within the organization. I also lead with um. I'm very willing to get my hands dirty, so happy to dive in and do as well as support and guide those around me. So, yeah, that that would be where my I think people would describe my focus in terms of how I'm leading this organization.
Sue Anstiss:Obviously, this is a very female focused event, being that it's a women's rugby world cup too, but have you faced any gender challenges, gender related challenges in your career within sport over the years? Has that happened very regularly or happened at all?
Sarah Massey:I mean not really. I think the challenge is and I think you know I've had this conversation before we, when we started out 30 years ago, there were very few women in the industry at all and as we sort of moved up through the industries, we just sort of accepted that that's the way it was. So I have never overtly felt necessarily any gender inequality or discrimination, but I know it existed because we know how it used to be back then. I just think that we accepted it, got on, kept our heads down, worked hard, took the opportunities that we were granted and we were really lucky that we, you know, fortunate that we rose through that and now we're in senior leadership positions, hopefully now being role models for others, coming along and making sure that we are calling out things, that we see back on, things that we see, which we, you know, which we do on a constant basis, because we now know how important it is to do that.
Sarah Massey:So I always feel slightly bad saying no, I haven't really experienced it in my career. I know I probably did as I said, but not maybe maybe called it out, so it didn't really affect me. But I've no, I haven't really, and I think I've always been fortunate that the people that I've worked for have been looking at gender equality, looking at diversity of gender within their organizations and and there's certain people who, I would say, absolutely went out of their way for me to make sure that that was the case and that probably helped me, from a confidence and leadership point of view, to to be able to then know that I could go on and lead organizations and and be role model for others and before you took on this role at World Rugby, you were CEO of the World Athletics Championships, oregon 2022, so it was obviously a hugely successful event.
Sue Anstiss:But what was the experience like for you as a British woman, especially leading an event in the US, albeit it was different in 22 to where it is today, but but still a very different environment yeah, there's no getting around the fact it was.
Sarah Massey:It was tough. We moved the family out there. We were supposed to be there for two years, which fitted really well with our daughter's schooling. Obviously, because of Covid, the event got put back a year, so it became three years and the organization that was set up. There was a very separate organizing committee that was funded by Oregon State Government, as well as commercial partnerships and others, and essentially I was solely responsible for making sure that that event came in on budget. It came in on time and it was a huge success and I really felt that pressure every single day. It was still the same.
Sarah Massey:You know, building a team started from one or two people when I first got there and we then built the team up, worked with lots of different stakeholders out there, of which I didn't have any knowledge or experience of working with those people before. You know, and you work in the sports industry, you always come across different people you might have worked with or come across before. That was all totally, totally new. So, yeah, it was really tough, very stressful, very pressurized. Accountability was really high, but I approached it the same as I did with anything else. You know, we set a strategy, we had a set of goals, we had a board, we took everybody along with us, we made sure we were communicating with people at all stages, but then COVID came along and everything halted. So that was also an interesting situation to be in. Again, as a female, as a foreigner, I think I felt the whole way through that the buck stopped with me. So if, if anything had happened, it really would have been on my shoulders.
Sarah Massey:Thankfully, the event was, as you had a really good, you know, really big success.
Sarah Massey:We work really closely with the USA track and field team and the University of Oregon and everybody was the whole community in in that place in in Eugene where it was held was totally passionate about making sure this was a great event and and it and it clearly was and did a lot about making sure this was a great event and and it and it clearly was and did a lot for US track and field across the country and raised the profile and brought in new fans and new followers. But yeah, was it was a very difficult three years and you say I do this all the time, so I must have got used to it. When this role came along, it was one of those roles I had to think very carefully about. Was it going to be the same accountability, same pressure? And I looked at it and it really within a couple of weeks of interviewing and then being offered the job. It was a bit of a no-brainer, really. Who wouldn't want to work in one of the biggest women's sports events across the globe in 2025?
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, in your home nation. And did you ever feel that you might leave the Oregon role? Because it's interesting that you look across these many major events of people that are leaving them, stepping aside, stepping down, being moved on, et cetera, in mid-term as it were, and it's almost like I guess I look at you and all that happened out there. It wouldn't have been surprising almost if you said you know hands up.
Sarah Massey:That's it enough. Enough, almost so. What was it that kept you going to see the end of that contract? Uh, did cross my mind multiple times, I'm sure I have to be honest. Yeah, um, I think that's just me sheer determination not to, not to want to fail and not to want to see it through. I felt responsibility to the team that we'd recruited out there, felt a responsibility to the sport I'm passionate about. I felt a responsibility to world athletics, obviously as the international federation, that that I could continue and do that role. So, yeah, did cross my mind, but I think dogged determination and tenacity was, was probably what, what kept me there. Uh, knowing that we could succeed in the end.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, and so you did. And clearly the fans are such an important consideration. You mentioned that in terms of Oregon, but when it comes to successful major events. So, looking back, what are the great sort of fan experiences that you've witnessed at the events that you've worked?
Sarah Massey:on, I think, ones that put the fans at the heart of everything. So events that have really researched who's going to be there and what they are actually looking for. Knowing your audience I mean, I know that again, it's a bit of a cliche, but people who understand their audience can then provide exactly the experience that is needed. And obviously you're going to get a range of audiences at each different event. It's not one size fits all, but it is is really, really important. So we've just done a study now, um, of all our ticket purchases I've already purchased for the for the women's rugby world cup. We've just gone out to them this week to ask them a series of questions to make sure that we can make sure that we are interpreting what they want into our fan experience across the eight different venues. So sports do it really well where they understand their audience and they provide what's needed for them.
Sue Anstiss:You and I were both at the Stoop last Friday for the Friday night game of Harlequins versus Bristol Bears in the PWR and it certainly felt for me like a very different experience to any men's rugby games I've attended there in the evenings. It was the first Friday night game they had there, wasn't it? Do you think that male and female fans do approach their fandom differently? Is that what you're finding from the research?
Sarah Massey:Yeah, definitely the female fans are looking for something very different. They're looking for more of a family day out. They're looking for more of an immersive experience. They're looking for more of an understanding of what the sport they're watching is. They're looking to to know the players. I mean, that's that, that's really what it is. They're really looking to understand who those stars are, why they want to follow them. I mean, you could see that on friday night, even with the, even with the cheers that were coming out when the players were being announced. It's so important and obviously having alona there helped a massive amount. But I mean, you just saw at the end the crowds that waited around the entire, the entire four sides of the pitch waited for her to extraordinary. Go down and say and the other players as well. You're absolutely right.
Sue Anstiss:so there's definitely that alona mara effect, but absolutely this group that I was with of of young women just wanted to see sarah burn, wanted to see simi pam. There was just so many athletes coming by that they were waiting for it was amazing, yeah.
Sarah Massey:And they stayed there for ages. I mean, they were there for a long time afterwards. And I think that's the beauty and we always talk about it, don't we of the female athletes is they're willing to promote their sums. They've got great personalities and they've got great storytelling, wasn't it after the Paris Olympics, all of the research showed that the most followers, social following, was for female athletes, not male athletes, because they want to tell their stories and people, and females and males alike, want to follow them and listen to them and hear what they've got to say. Really important.
Sue Anstiss:So, talking more about the Women's Rugby World Cup, I mean what a year it's going to be. It just feels every week as we're moving, we're building. Now we're not counting down, we're building up to it, but can you give us a bit of an overview of where you are right now with preparations?
Sarah Massey:Yeah. So obviously moving into the year of operation gives it a whole new focus, but we are tracking really well ahead on our preparations I mean the ticket sales have been unprecedented. Ahead on our preparations. I mean the ticket sales have been unprecedented sold more tickets over 220,000 tickets than any previous Women's Rugby World Cup and more than pretty much many major sports events on the women's side and the men's side. So interest and momentum has just been incredible over the last few months. It really has.
Sarah Massey:I think we've really captured the nation in terms of what this is going to be and how big it's going to be. And it's not that we weren't ambitious on our ticket sales to begin with. So when people say, oh, have you sold more than you thought you would, it's not that we've sold more than we thought we would because we've had big ambitions to pack the stands. That's been one of our mantras from the very out the stands from an atmosphere and perspective and making sure it looks great on TV and making sure the fans have got a brilliant experience. But we've probably sold more tickets than we expected to by this stage. I think women's events traditionally have been quite late in terms of their sales process because there isn't an appointment to view, because people didn't probably know the Rugby World Cup was coming up this year in the UK. So we expected the tickets to come on, probably later than they. They did, but they haven't, which is great. So we're now in a situation we know people want to buy tickets, we know we'll put more tickets out and we know that they will buy.
Sarah Massey:And I think what we've also done is captured the hearts and minds of the local host locations as well. I mean the eight different cities that we're going to put massive amount of force behind what they're doing as well. They're deeply passionate. Their communities are getting behind it and the more that we raise awareness and momentum around each of those host locations, the more people want to be part of it's, kind of a form of civic pride. This is coming to their city. They want to be part of it. They want to showcase what their city has to offer. And then, in terms of operational preparations, I mean it's all around the eight different host locations and cities so busy with all of the host venue operational planning as well as the city planning. So, as I said, we're bringing those cities to life with fan zones and other activities that will be going on. So getting those communities behind what we're doing is really important.
Sue Anstiss:And we hear so much, don't we, about the impact of a Lionesses win with a home Euros in 2022. So do you feel we're going to see a similar impact around the Women's Rugby World Cup?
Sarah Massey:Yes, we do, and I think it's our job is to put on the most amazing, biggest Rugby World Cup that we can. There's a global celebration of women's rugby and one that is a generational moment for the sport. We only come around once every four years, so we know we have to make the absolute most of what we can do to promote the event both on and off the pitch, because when we leave town as a Rugby World Cup we want to make sure that we are leaving a legacy and leaving the momentum from a domestic legacy point of view and obviously from a pwr league point of view as well. So we need to try and do as much as we can to raise that awareness and visibility, but make sure that then there's other things happening along the way, which obviously england rugby and the pwr are already doing to continue that impact and legacy in England. And then from a World Rugby point of view, they're obviously looking at the legacy that that will then have globally. So there's two sort of legacy programs that are sitting alongside each other one, the Impact 25 program, which is led by the RFU. So that's all about domestic legacy increasing participation, improving facilities, getting more officials and coaches, and then, from a world rugby perspective, it's an it's called the impact beyond program.
Sarah Massey:So looking at how we can make sure we're maintaining that legacy from a global perspective across the world through various different programs. There's a new new participation program called rugby rising, which is aimed at younger age group of girls getting involved globally. We work with Child Fund, our social impact partner. They're looking at ways to improve and enrich the lives of girls across the globe through their programs in community rugby in many different countries that you would not expect to necessarily find rugby and they're doing amazing work. So there's a whole host of programs and initiatives both domestically and internationally to continue the legacy of what we're doing. And then we obviously have a legacy that we are looking at from a tournament perspective as well, mainly based around opportunities for women and girls. So by providing the opportunities that we are across a whole load of different programs, then how can we make sure that those women and girls, particularly from diverse communities and underrepresented groups, have a place in the sports industry in the future?
Sue Anstiss:It's interesting, isn't it, that it's not that working in partnership with the Home Nation, because I did see some fantastic stuff I think Alex Teasdale shared last week around the first tranche of Impact 2025 and the work they were doing in communities, and it's just so powerful, isn't it? So you're not as involved, but do you feel the clubs on the ground will be ready, hopefully, for this influx of young women that discover the game for the first time this autumn?
Sarah Massey:So Impact 2025 programme, as you say, is driven by the RFU. It's separate funding through Sport England for them to deliver against a set of metrics which they've agreed with Sport England aimed at participation and the increase of coaches and officials around the country. And that's one of the reasons that they're doing it is to make sure that they're going into those community clubs and making sure that the facilities are there, that they are a sense of, they're instilling a sense of belonging and inclusivity within those clubs so that when the women and girls do join that they feel that's a place where they belong and they can find their community within that club excellent we talk about funding, and funding is obviously so important, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss:so is this tournament funded to the same level as the men's rugby world cup?
Sarah Massey:uh, I mean the budgets are very different between the men's rugby world cup and the women's rugby world cup.
Sarah Massey:Yes, uh is that a no, they're. They're very different. It's a very different model. I mean we're looking at the fact that we've had huge investment by World Rugby into this Women's Rugby World Cup. So, as I said before, we're a UK sport funded event, so there's funding coming that way through GCMS. The rest of the money is raised through revenue through commercial sponsorships and partnerships, media rights and then the investment by World Rugby directly into our pnl for the women's rugby world cup. So it it's certainly the biggest investment made into a men's rugby world cup so far. Uh, world rugby totally understand and know that that the future of the women's game is is by putting on these big, huge pinnacle events that really drive visibility and awareness for future fan growth and future participation. So it's part of the strategic plan at World Rugby. It's one of the key pillars driving women's rugby and driving Women's Rugby World Cup as a key part of the strategy. So very much front of mind for everybody within World Rugby to push this and make sure we're putting on the best event we can.
Sue Anstiss:And where do you see it going beyond this next 10 years, 20 years? Where do you think the Women's Rugby World Cup could get to?
Sarah Massey:So we always talk about this because we well, world Rugby have obviously set their Rugby World Cups for the future. So we know exactly where the Rugby World Cup is going to be in 29th for the women in Australia, and then obviously on to America four years later and we've always talked about it being a step change. So we know that there's no. You know it wasn't possible to put on a men's rugby world cup sized rugby world cup in 2025. But what we've done is be really intentional about the standards that we've increased for this event based on previous world cups, and then what the team will do in Australia is they will then step on again the standards to step up, and again they'll be stepped up in america as well.
Sarah Massey:So we are hoping that within this cycle, we are getting to the stage where we are reaching the standards that are put on for a men's rugby world cup, so there can be can be equality, um, and that that's the hope and that's why the new model that world rugby have implemented for their events. So world rugby now own all their rugby world cups. It's not bid out to a country and they form their own LOC. World Rugby are now in control of the entire organisation and operation of their Rugby World Cups, which is why they then. The LOC that I'm responsible for leading is part of World Rugby. I work for World Rugby and because of that they're in control of their own destiny, so can do the the stepping up at each stage into each particular rugby world cup.
Sue Anstiss:And when you say improving standards, without going into all detail, but but standards of what? What do you mean by improving standards?
Sarah Massey:so one of the key things we've done for this rugby world cup from a player's point of view is, in previous world cups, facilities have been shared, so teams would have had to have shared hotels, shared team bases, share facilities.
Sarah Massey:What we've done is every single team that comes to this event will have their own team base.
Sarah Massey:So every team has a team hotel, an outdoor training pitch, an indoor training pitch, a gym and a swimming pool that they can have access to and they're not having to share it with other teams, which, coming out of the rugby world cup last time around, was one of the key things that the teams knew that that was that was going to be a massive contributor to how they played and their performance and how they excel on the pitch.
Sarah Massey:So we have one of our key parts of our strategies about delivering high standards, and it's very much driven around what we're providing for the players so that they have the best environment and the best the best conditions that they can have, so that they have the best environment and the best the best conditions that they can have so that they can thrive on the pitch and play the best compelling action and matches that they can. Other areas up, upping standards for players, particularly around our pitches. So making sure that all our pitches, the training pitches, are of our really high standard, high standard, same same as the men's would do, and again, it's just the facilities and services that we'll be providing around medical, around some of the player welfare will all be up to the same standards as the men's.
Sue Anstiss:And in terms of that, broadcast and fans etc. What might be different? If you're talking to some fans now and saying what they might expect from this year's tournament, how different might it look to what they've seen in the past?
Sarah Massey:So they'll see much bigger stadiums with many more people in them, so crowds are. We've we've broken records in terms of crowds and tickets sold than previous rugby world cups. I think fans will see a great atmosphere. They'll have a great fan experience. Um, it'll be very different to what they might experience at a twickenham or a bristol when's a men's match. But that's obviously again taking account of who our audience and what we're expecting our audience to be and what they are expecting to have there.
Sarah Massey:I mean, one of our mantras right from the beginning, as I said, is to pack the stands. That's going to create an incredible atmosphere. For a start, we will have lots of fan experience facing experiences out on the concourses. There'll be fan zones within the cities and then fan plazas within each individual venue as well, and that'll have lots of different interaction. We're bringing in a whole new vision into our fan experience and our whole fan experience vision. It's all about creating rock stars. It's all about turning it up. So making sure that music and entertainment really are are the keystone of what we're doing. So, yeah, you're going to see lots of loud and bold and proud fan experience across all of our venues Fantastic.
Sue Anstiss:I'm excited. I was excited anyway. I bought a lot of tickets, but I'm very excited now. And if you could look back in a few years time and see one major milestone that came from a tournament, what would you like that to be? What might that be?
Sarah Massey:I think that we have shown that rugby is a sport for everybody, that the DNA of rugby is inherently all about all shapes and sizes. Anybody can play. You can find your place place in rugby, whether that's on the field or off the field. So I think this is going to be a real turning point for promoting rugby as a sport, a place of belonging for people to be part of. We will have created lots of new fans and I think that we will really have shown that there really is incredible value in women's sport.
Sarah Massey:I think that's one of the things we really want to show by going across the country. You know it's bold. We're going to eight different venues. We're in every region of the country. We're trying to create those packed out stands and great atmospheres in every single one of them that's. You know that's hard, there's a lot to do there, but I think if we do that and we do that in the sport of rugby, we will have shown that there is absolute true value in women's sport and we will have done that through the DNA of rugby and showcasing exactly what it has to offer for so many different types of people.
Sue Anstiss:I'd like to finish, if I can, by talking a bit more about gender balance in sports leadership. While you're working at the International Federations in Tennis and Hockey, I know you helped create gender equality campaigns, so can you perhaps tell us a little bit more about that work?
Sarah Massey:Yeah, it was something that I and again working in the International Federation world, and it was when, really, the IOC were also coming out with some of their gender equality strategies and how federations could put in and improve governance around bringing more women, particularly into their leadership positions on their executive boards, through that side, but also how because the International Federation is generally obviously a mixed gender in terms of the sports they're promoting how could they make sure that the media coverage was equal, that the photographs that they were putting out, anything they were putting out in the media, was very balanced from a gender point of view, even if it was just publications or articles you'd see being produced, even if it was just internal documents and the pictures would all be of male athletes, it was very much putting a campaign in place. I mean, I guess my marketing background probably brings that through, but I always think that if you have a campaign to hang something on, it gives people a platform to, to look to and to reach to, and and it also just gives it a chance to then get it out much more into the media, out on, out on social and talk to it. So so, within the hockey federation we had a campaign, which was equally amazing. I mean, we were really lucky in hockey because there are so many nations in hockey that actually in some countries like argentina, the women's game is actually more popular than the men's games. Quite spread and same in holland is very similar male and female exposure for both the male and female sports. So hockey was one of those.
Sarah Massey:Yeah, we, we did a whole promotion around equally amazing. And whilst we felt that it was equally amazing from a participation point of view, we also need to be equally amazing when it came to representation on boards, when it came to representation and leadership within nations, and that we were constantly promoting and making sure that that campaign ran. And similarly with tennis, the campaign is about advantage, all so making sure that both genders and now they've expanded that to look at all forms of diversity as well and advantage to everybody that it needs to be considered equal. And again, once you have a campaign around it and Billie Jean King got very behind it and started to talk about it it just gives a focal point. I think I'm a big believer in campaigns and how you can then drive that through a really focused and singular message.
Sue Anstiss:And what progress have you seen across? As I look back across those 30 years, what progress have you seen, and not just on the board roles, but in those senior roles within sports management, across the organisations you've worked within?
Sarah Massey:Yeah, I mean we're seeing it. I mean I wouldn't say that we've solved it. We know still there's an awful lot of work to do with ensuring that there are still women coming through at all levels to take senior positions in organisations, but then senior positions as well on on boards. So I would say seeing massive step forwards and the conversations that we now have around it are much more open. There's way more people having those conversations.
Sarah Massey:I mean what you and kate have achieved with the women's sport collective is is massive and that has massively helped so many people in in the industry, both with information, guidance and support, but also how to have those conversations, how to meet more people, and that has massively helped so many people in the industry, both with information, guidance and support, but also how to have those conversations, how to meet more people as role models and mentors to then go, okay, well, I can do that as well. How can I get there? What's the best way to do it? So I think that network that's been created has made a huge difference, particularly in this country. I suppose other countries you know probably not quite as advanced as here, but seen massive changes here. But, as I say, still quite a bit of work to do to make sure that continues, making sure that we're still having those conversations and moving forward.
Sue Anstiss:And just finally, if you could go back to when we were both young graduates leaving Loughborough University and you could give your younger self there some advice for getting started out in the field, what kind of what would you say to her today?
Sarah Massey:I know, looking back, I probably would be intimidated in going to ask people for help or approaching someone to be a mentor, or even just asking someone for a coffee to to ask them how I might progress and the sorts of people I might meet or might be able to help me on my journey. I think we just found our own way. I don't know how we quite did it. I think it was particularly intentional, but very fortunate to have found the way through. That we did.
Sarah Massey:I would say to anybody and back to my younger self is just take all the opportunities that you can. I feel like that's what I did. You know, don't let anyone stand in your way. You have to be bold and you have to be a bit tenacious to get there. But at the same time, other people like people to reach out to you and ask for help, ask for support, ask for guidance. Be very clear about what you're looking for and why you want it.
Sarah Massey:But people are there willing to help, particularly women in senior positions. Do not in any way feel intimidated. Just just reach out. And and probably probably throughout my career and it's an and it's you know, we all say it, but imposter syndrome is a real thing, but it's trying to understand that we are all here because we deserve to be here. We're all here for a reason, and anything that we can do to help that younger generation come through then, then, then, then that's what everybody is striving to do. We, our job is to now help the younger generation come through and have greater representation, particularly from underrepresented groups, in the sports industry in the future.
Sue Anstiss:I'm sure from that you can tell just how excited I am about the Women's Rugby World Cup this year and also what a fan I am of the great work that Sarah is doing across sport. If you'd like to hear from more female trailblazers from sport, there are over 200 episodes of the Game Changers that are all free to listen to on podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. Other guests include elite athletes, coaches, entrepreneurs, sports scientists, academics, broadcasters, journalists and CEOs all women who are changing the game in sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, which Sarah talked about at the end of our conversation. It's a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport and we now have over 10,000 members across the world, so please do come and join us.
Sue Anstiss:The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 11 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thanks again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective with a National Lottery Award, and also thanks to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such a brilliant job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my lovely colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannan. The Game Changers is available on all podcast platforms, so please do follow it now and you won't miss out on future episodes. Come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on LinkedIn and Instagram at Sue Anstis, the Game Changers fearless women in sport.
