The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Jodie Ounsley: The impact of strong, powerful role models
As we look forward to the Paralympics at Paris 2024, we're sharing this previous episode with Jodie Ounsley, who will be presenting at the games, which was first released on May 30, 2023.
Today’s guest is Jodie Ounsley – a professional rugby player and Honorary President of UK Deaf Sport, who will also be a Gladiator in the new series that returns to the BBC later this year.
Jodie is a powerful role model for women and girls and talks openly about her deafness and how it’s impacted her life on and off the pitch.
She explains how she’s unintentionally been training for Gladiators all her life and how she’s preparing for the public profile that comes with becoming ‘Fury’ in the new series.
Jodie began her sporting career as a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu champion before representing the UK in athletics at the Deaf Olympics. Five times Coal Carrying Champion, she then moved on to rugby where she’s represented England at 7s and now plays for the Exeter Chiefs in the Premier 15s.
Alongside her success in sport, Jodie was awarded the Young Deaf Sports Personality of the Year and was also included in the BBC Woman’s Hour Power List 2023 which recognised 30 outstanding women in sport.
Jodie’s videos on TikTok, where she shares her life as a young woman living with hearing loss, have been viewed almost 5 million times.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond. I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast through a national lottery award. My guest today is , a professional rugby player and honorary president of UK Deaf Sport.
Sue Anstiss:Jodie began her sporting career as a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu champion before representing the UK in athletics at the Deaf Olympics. She then moved on to rugby, where she's represented England at sevens and played for the Exeter Chiefs in the Premier 15s. Alongside her success in sport, jodie was awarded the Young Deaf Sports Personality of the Year and was also included in the BBC Women's Hour Power List 2023, which recognised 30 outstanding women in sport. Jodie's videos on TikTok, where she shares her life as a young woman living with hearing loss, have been viewed almost 5 million times, and I would recommend you go and have a look at those to understand more of her life and all she's doing Excitingly. It's also just been announced that Jodie will be a gladiator in the new series that returns to the BBC later this year. So, jodie, can I start with that exciting news about gladiators. How are you feeling about it To be?
Jodie Ounsley:honest, it's been a crazy ride. Like I'm just still processing it. To be honest, I'm honestly so excited and the funny thing is, like my parents and my family, gladiators has always been in our life and we always joke saying you'd be an amazing gladiator or you've been training to be a gladiator. So now this opportunity has come up. It's weird how it's come up in this part of my life and now having the opportunity to be a gladiator, it's just bizarre.
Sue Anstiss:I love that. It's been a part of your life because it was like the 80s and 90s, so you've obviously talked about it, you've been aware of it, because not everybody of your generation would necessarily have been so aware of it.
Jodie Ounsley:Yeah, so I knew it was big sort of like in the 80s and 90s, but then it did come back, was it? I think I had two series and then my dad was a contender on it, so that's how I first sort of came about. So I must have been about seven or eight years old at this point and I would watch him and, oh, I absolutely loved it. I was just so into it and all the training obviously coming from like the World Cold, carrying Championships, athletics, like fighting, and then seeing gladiators it training obviously coming from like the world cold, carrying championships, athletics, like fighting, and then seeing gladiators. It was just all a mixture and I absolutely loved it.
Jodie Ounsley:So it was a lot of like do you know, toys r us? Yeah, went there, got like the dual, like the sticks, yeah, got the outfit, got the helmet, got my padded shin pads, got on the trampoline and I was fighting with my dad. And then we sort of got some rings set up in our garage and I was just doing that, constantly swinging back and forth. There's videos and I honestly look like a little monkey. And then later on, because we used to have horses at the time we converted our stable into a climbing wall, so like there's a climbing in gladiators. So we're just climbing in the stable, swinging on the rings. So, without even realizing, I think I have actually been training all my life to be a gladiator and I've just happened to be a rugby player, but really I think I'm made to be a gladiator.
Sue Anstiss:That's fabulous, that's fabulous. My brother, tim, was a contender as well, I know. So, having talking to you and knowing I was talking to you, I went back and found on YouTube the video I'll have to send you the video of it of him. We all went up to Birmingham to watch. So, yeah, it's funny, isn't it, how it impacts people's lives. It's just the most amazing. It was an amazing event at the time, so I'm so, so excited for you this time around. So what were the trials like? What was the? So what were the trials like? What was the getting selected? What were the physical trials? Obviously, you'd you'd been training for the last decade.
Jodie Ounsley:Yeah, so it was quite lucky. Actually, they they'd been reaching out to me asking if I could come to the trials and I just couldn't make any of the trials because obviously I was either playing or I was training. I was like I can't, I can't do this. And then there just happened to be one trial that landed in like a rest week. So I went and did the trial and it was grueling, it was like savage, but yeah, so we did a trial and then went away and sort of just waited really, and then, um, literally got a call.
Jodie Ounsley:So a couple of emails back and forth just saying what the opportunity would be, and then had a zoom call and then they just they just told me basically, and I I generally had in my head I thought, no, I don't think I've quite made it. And the way, the way there was speaking on the zoom call was like you know, when you say I'm like x-factor or something where they're like, and then they say actually, yeah, you've, you've got the role. So I was honestly, I was so excited and the thing is, on the zoom call I was typical just me being a Yorkshire lass I wasn't like crying or I was just so speechless. I literally said oh, I'm so chuffed, I said something like that. But um, yeah, it's just, it's crazy, that's amazing, isn't?
Sue Anstiss:it, and have you met any of the other gladiators? I'm not asking you to give away the secrets. It's not quite met any of the other gladiators. I'm not asking you to give away the secrets. It's not quite announced. Have you met other gladiators yet at all?
Jodie Ounsley:Well, I've actually met probably like three or four and you'll actually you'll know one. I think you'll be pretty excited who it is. Because it was funny because we didn't know we was at the trial together and then obviously we didn't know who got sort of selected. So then we turned up to like our fittings or whatnot, and we saw each other and we literally screamed like oh brilliant, like we're going to have a great time Such fun, such fun.
Sue Anstiss:And do you know what your name is? Yet Is that all to be revealed?
Jodie Ounsley:Yeah, so I'm called Fury. I love it, fury. So obviously that they sort of came up with this name, because obviously, when I feel like I've got different personalities, so when I'm off the field in rug in the rugby world, I'm quite. I'm quite a shy person. I'm warm, trying, friendly, I'll do anything for anyone, but as soon as I get on the field I switch, I'm just, I'm ready to do some damage. So it's actually, to be honest, fiora is me.
Jodie Ounsley:I feel like I don't have to be this different type of person or put on this character. So Fiora is a very, you know, she's a very aggressive, powerful and when she's in competition she's out there to absolutely, like I said, do some damage. She's not your friend, but as soon as she comes out of that competition she's a much softer side, a very, you know, shows sportmanship and very warm towards the contenders. So it's that contrast and I don't think people will be expecting that, because normally a gladiator sort of stays in one, one part of the character. So there's quite a contrast with Fury, which is quite exciting. It's really interesting.
Sue Anstiss:So years this is years ago in the 80s. I worked for an agency at the time that did uh, we were working with Blockbuster videos, but we did lots of. We had gladiators coming and doing personal appearances and the queues down the road for autographs and whatever like it was just phenomenal, the kind of profile and drives. Are you ready for that? Almost what that might look like in terms of recognition and fame of Fury.
Jodie Ounsley:A lot of people say you need to be prepared for that, and I'm just thinking I don't think I've processed that and to me I'm. You know, I'm a rugby player and I happen to absolutely have a big love for gladiators. So for me to be a gladiator, maybe people might you know, people might not even know me as a rugby player. People might know me because at the minute people either know me as a rugby player or people don't know me as a player. They probably know me, as you know, an athlete who's deaf and all the deaf awareness and teachers and parents. So then there's this other aspect. Now I might be just known as fury and they might not know me as anything else. So that's quite what I'm still trying to wrap my head around. But obviously I feel like I do need to be prepared and more. I think I need to be more prepared for the grilling of my teammates because, like, it's never going to end. I'm going to be training and it's all going to be fury, fury, fury.
Sue Anstiss:So, yeah, it's a lot to get there and have they helped you, have they given you support to prepare you for the profile that will come?
Jodie Ounsley:yeah, no, they've been really good with that. Actually, you know, they've had a psychologist on board you know already good before that, before it's even started, just to like sort of try and get your head around, like especially around. You know what social media is like these days, and obviously in the previous gladiators social media wouldn't have been a huge presence, so that's probably a big role in this theory. So, yeah, they're being amazing with that and I think they'll continue that as we go into it.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, that's really reassuring to hear. It's important, isn't it? And how important do you think gladiators can be, or programmes like gladiators, for celebrating strong, powerful women in our society? Yeah, do you know what that?
Jodie Ounsley:was one of the biggest things I was excited about. I was obviously excited about gladiators and you know, having that opportunity, but in my head I was thinking this could be so exciting whenever they had such a big opportunity like this but then also showcasing like strong female athletes but not just female athletes rugby players to be specific. So I'm just so excited about that and, like you know, it's a family show. So many different people will be watching. You know whether it's kids, whether it's adults, and if they see you know this individual as fury, you know being aggressive, you know smashing people around, you know being competitive, but then also showing that you can. You can also be feminine, you can also be friendly and just showing the whole balance of what you can be really. And, yeah, I'm so, I'm. That's what I'm most excited about just having that platform, I suppose, and doing the best I can be to also try and be a role model, I suppose. Yeah, I'm so excited for you.
Sue Anstiss:I was like, can I keep it calm? But I'm really excited for you. And we saw, didn't we last year how Rose's appearance on Strictly Come Dancing had such an enormous impact on the deaf community in the UK and she went on to win. And I mean that dance, that silent dance, for me was the most powerful thing I've seen you know on the show ever. It was extraordinary. So how did that dance affect you and her involvement in a show like that?
Jodie Ounsley:like obviously I'm like 22 now, but even and when I saw sort of Rose on the show, I was like, oh, this is, this is amazing. Like you know someone who's deaf's on the show, someone's you know who's having that platform and using their you know their to try and be a positive change really. And then when I saw that silent dance it, it gave me goosebumps. I just it was so simple but it felt like I could something I could really relate to and everyone could relate to, whether you're deaf or not. It was just, it was brilliant and she had a massive role in that.
Sue Anstiss:And are you hoping that your presence on gladiators could have a similar impact in terms of just bringing people into your world?
Jodie Ounsley:yeah, no, I'd love that, um, obviously from like the deaf, like awareness side of things, but then also like the women's sport, women's, you know, athletes. I just think I'm so excited about that and I just really want to try and use my platform to do that and just try and inspire other people. So, yeah, absolutely, I hope so Brilliant.
Sue Anstiss:Are you happy to talk a little bit about your deafness and growing up too? I'm interested to explore that. So what have your parents shared with you about your diagnosis from when you were a baby?
Jodie Ounsley:Yeah, so to me, I've always known I've been profoundly deaf from birth. So there's obviously different, different levels of deafness. But I'm basically at the bottom. There's nothing like in both ears, there's just nothing there like I'm talking. You could, like we always say, you could literally get a gun or something and fire a gun right next to my ear and I just, I just want to hear it. So, yeah, so profoundly deaf is the bottom, which you can't hear anything at any decibel level. So that was from a baby and the whole reason. Well, actually I found out in lockdown that I may have not been born deaf.
Jodie Ounsley:Um, it was actually medication that made me lose my hearing when I was a baby. So obviously I was, I was premature, so I was really ill and you know I needed medication to get better, otherwise you know it could have been a lot worse. So it was the case of they were giving me medication but then they didn't check how much, how much was in my system before giving me another dose. So they think that's a side effect of losing your hearing. But to me, I've just been deaf since a baby and, like you know, everyone's saying, well, how bad is that? You've only just found that out and I'm like you know everyone makes mistakes like you know, it's just one of those things, really, and that's all I've ever known. So then I went to get a cochlear implant when I was 13 months old, and then from there the whole journey of rehab, speech therapy, every day, sort of through the week, until I started school and went through mainstream school rather than sort of a deaf school.
Sue Anstiss:Can you tell us about the cochlear implant and I have followed some of your social, but just to explain how that works and what your day-to-day level of hearing is now or what that offers you, yeah, so like I think most people think oh, if you have a cochlear implant it's like a quick fix, you've got sort of normal hearing.
Jodie Ounsley:But it's. It's nothing like that, it's just it's. It's an amazing piece of technology, obviously. So the way it works, it almost. It basically bypasses sound past my ears because they don't work, and sends signals straight to, like, my brain and it sort of interprets it as sound. The science behind it I can't, I don't even know it myself. It's bizarre. It allows me to hear sounds and obviously probably hear very different to what you hear. But mostly I communicate with people by lip reading and just the way you move your mouth and the lip patterns and just years of repetition and understanding that. But yeah, it's amazing. It does allow me to hear some sound, but obviously when I take it off, nothing.
Sue Anstiss:And are cochlear implants constantly evolving and developing and improving? I imagine there must be developments in that area.
Jodie Ounsley:Yeah, they are sort of developing as we speak. You normally have an upgrade after maybe eight years or something like that. So I've probably had about three different implants since I've been growing up and they have improved, probably maybe the sound or the direction of sound. So I've just got my new upgrade, probably at the start of the year, um, and it basically just I've definitely noticed a slight difference. It sort of picks up direction of sound a little bit more because obviously on this side I don't have one, so anyone sat on this side I just don't really hear what they're saying and people, the amount of times when I'm sat down at, you know, tables or in school, people thought I was really rude, that I was just like avoiding them and obviously I've got a bit of a like resting bee face, um, so people just think I'm quite arrogant or rude. But really it's just I am urgent and I'm concentrating that hard. I just have a natural straight face that's so funny.
Sue Anstiss:And you mentioned then school and going through mainstream school. So how was that for you and that I just can. I hardly imagine how hard that that must have been as a young. All the young people go through anyway, you know, in school life it was.
Jodie Ounsley:It was really difficult and I think that's the whole reason why I went straight into sport. I love sport because it was something I felt like I was good at, it's something that I enjoyed and, yeah, it was just even the little things. Obviously, I always had to, you know, make sure I had to be sat in front of the class so I could see the teacher in the mouth. But the problem was I didn't have confidence at all when I was in school. I was, I was shy, I was very shy. I'm quite shy now, but I think I've become a lot more confident than I was in school. But even just I didn't even have the confidence.
Jodie Ounsley:If I've missed something or if I was struggling in class, I would never put my hand up and ask the teacher what they said or or make them aware that I've missed what they said or I was struggling.
Jodie Ounsley:I would just keep it bottled up and just struggle and I would miss out on a lot of things. So I think when it came to PE, it was the best thing ever, because it was like, oh, I don't really need to, don't really need to listen up here as such, I can just get out there, do something I feel good at and it just takes my mind off sort of the struggles I was having in class. So I think that's the whole reason why I loved it so much and I would. I saw PE like it was the Olympic finals. I took it too seriously. I came in like my own clothes, like my muscle vest, my own shorts and like running trainers, whilst everyone else was in like you know PE kit. So, um, yeah, I think I just I just put everything into the sort of sport inside of it because I felt good at it.
Sue Anstiss:Do you um think you would have thrived better in a deaf school, or are you really pleased that you went through the mainstream system? It must have been hard for your parents to decide what's the right route there that's a better in a deaf school, or are you really pleased that you went through the mainstream system?
Jodie Ounsley:it must have been hard for your parents to decide what's the right route there, that's it everyone just has different experience, everyone has different opinions and I think because I had my cochlear implant, they heavily advised my parents to go through the speech therapy route and just sort of the options, and my mum and dad were like back and forth, they didn't know what to do, they didn't know what was right for me, what was not right for me, people's opinions, and it took them a lot of thinking and back and forth, the pros and cons, but I think it would have just been very different experiences.
Jodie Ounsley:So in mainstream school I heavily, you know, spoke spoken language. But if I was in a deaf school I might have probably more relied on BSL, british Sign Language, and just had a different group of friends. I probably mixed with a lot more, you know, with the deaf community. But whereas school, at mainstream school, I was quite I only remember being the only deaf person, really from what I remember, so it's only since I got into sport and you know, the deaf olympics, and now with the rugby, I'm a lot more involved in the deaf community than I ever was in school I was very separate from that.
Sue Anstiss:Are you doing more with BSL? I'd seen on some of your social that you were beginning to learn. I was following brother, mother, father, but is that something you'd like to do more of or you're doing more of?
Jodie Ounsley:Yeah, yeah, so because obviously I focused on spoken language in school. I didn't really I didn't I don't want to say I didn't have the need to learn it, because I obviously really wanted to learn it but I didn't know any. I wasn't aware around the deaf community at that point. So it's only now, when I'm going into like schools and you know, trying to be a role model, I wanted to like make a really big effort of trying to learn it. So, yeah, I'm I'm not fluent or anything like that I'm really trying. I know basics now and I'm actually I'm trying to sort of involve it in gladiators as well. So different parts of like my signature moves and stuff like that. I've involved BSL as like as part of my signature move as Fury and then just little things of trying to interact with the audience, like the little I love you sign and stuff like that. So yeah, I'm trying to sort of bring it more into my life now and the gladiators and stuff.
Sue Anstiss:Brilliant. I love that. I love that. I heard a lovely story of you copying your dad when you were young and growing up with the coal carrying uh championships, which, first of all, is such a Yorkshire pursuit, isn't it? But can you tell us a little bit more about that? And there's some fabulous video of you I've seen too yeah, so it's it's.
Jodie Ounsley:The thing is it's just a norm to us. It's complete norm to us and everyone else just thinks it's bizarre and it is a Yorkshire thing. But it's literally like even now, like every year, every Easter Monday, we'll go and watch it. It's a family tradition. But how it came about? My dad actually started it and basically the World Co-Carrying Championships is from literally sack of coal on your shoulders and it's from you run like a mile and it's the first one to the maypole. And it started by two mates at the pub who were drinking and something like right, do you want to race to the maypole with sack of coal? And that's how it came about. And now it's this massive tradition and it's just it's amazing how it's still going and it's even it's only getting bigger as well. More people come and it's such a family thing.
Jodie Ounsley:So, yeah, anyway, at this point I was around three years old. My dad told me but I remember it like it was yesterday and I don't know how I can possibly remember that. It's so bizarre, but I just remember him running around either in the garden. I just remember in my head he was just running around training with something on his shoulders. I didn't know what was on his shoulders or why he was running around in the garden, but I just thought it was brilliant.
Jodie Ounsley:And then he said that because we had horses, like I said. He just said I randomly picked up this, like we had little sacks of carrots and I put the little sacks of carrots on my shoulders. And then he just said I started sprinting around the kitchen, but then I didn't stop, I just kept sprinting around. I started sprinting around the kitchen, but then I didn't stop, I just kept sprinting around. And then he always says in his head that was like a moment where I thought, wow, she's probably going to be involved in sport or she's going to have a love for sport when she grows up. But yeah, so I've won it five times.
Sue Anstiss:I need to add that to your bio that you're five times cold carry, Cold carry champion. And obviously you say sport is such a part of your life, of your family life, but you've done so much so track and field and martial arts and different martial arts actually. So tell us about that and I guess why you found those, what you loved about those sports. First of all, yeah.
Jodie Ounsley:So obviously I started with a cold race my sporting career and then athletics just appealed to me and obviously at school you're always doing athletics like you're either doing sprints or sports day. So I naturally went into running. I always loved being like fast and racing my dad and stuff. So, yeah, went into like 100 metre sprints, 200 metre sprints, because they have like death championships and competitions. So I did them all the way up, like when I was eight years old, and all the way through school and stuff. And then I think that again, I think I was like a world champion without like those competitions. It would just. But I generally saw those competitions like I was racing in the Olympics. It was unreal, like I remember the feeling I was like if I didn't win I'd be going home crying. That's how serious I was. So, yeah, I did athletics and then I even did judo karate for a little bit.
Jodie Ounsley:But then I came across Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu because my dad's come from that background. So he started, you know, as a professional MMA fighter. Oh was he? Yeah, he's won multiple titles. It's so humble and he never speaks about this. So I have to like hype him up and tell people about this. So, yeah, he was like an MMA fighter, you know, did brilliant at that. And then he moved into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You know he's a black belt. He's like world champion, european champion, british champion. Wow, I mean, in our garage there's just a whole line of medals that is won and yeah, like I said, it's just so humble he doesn't speak about it, it's just, that's just yeah, that's just his norm.
Jodie Ounsley:So, yeah, obviously, me training with him in the garage and like you know, that's when I picked it up and then I started competing in brazilian jiu-jitsu. Can't say I won world champion, but I'm, I managed to win british champion anyway. But yeah, our saturday nights were again, this was the norm to us. Our saturday nights were because we had like mats down in the garage. We made it into like a wrestling thing alongside the rings.
Jodie Ounsley:Um, so the wall, the climbing wall, yeah, yeah, so we'd fight in the garage and it would always end in tears because obviously a little 12 year old or whatever was not gonna be like a world champion. But I just had in my head that I need to beat him. I need to beat him and I never did and obviously it'll go. It'll go really easy on me, obviously, but I just I was so angry. But anyway, we'll fight in the garage before Britain's Got Talent started. So it will like have a fight and then we'll get in time to have our like chicken nuggets. It will like chicken nuggets my mum do like sort of chicken nuggets and chips, and then we'll watch Britain's Got Talent.
Sue Anstiss:I love it. I saw some video I might be one of your TikToks of him with. I might me with the Exeter girls where he's demonstrating taking you down. Their faces are like people should watch it. I should put a link in the show notes. But people are watching. Your colleagues, your teammates watching it. I can't believe what's going on with him.
Jodie Ounsley:But the thing is obviously I just put it on my social media just as a little funny thing, but it honestly blew up and people were not happy with it so I had to put some context behind it because obviously those moves he was doing in the video are all illegal in rugby. Um, he was doing those moves before adapting it in rugby situations so it was like oh, for example, this is what I would do if I was in a fight and he'll do it a demo on me, but then it'll sort of adapt it to ways how you can use wrestling in contact areas in rugby. Obviously the funniest part were when he was like getting me in arm locks and choking me, so I was like that's what I posted. But yeah, I had to put some context behind it. But the girls it was obviously very new to the girls but they all loved it and the fight was great.
Sue Anstiss:I'm interviewing Molly McCann for this series too. So I wonder, in terms of MMA, has that been something that you have considered as a part? You were young in your career, you got a long way to go, but is that something you might consider in the future?
Jodie Ounsley:Yeah, I've honestly said I before I did rugby, I really wanted to do MMA. But the only issue around that is getting around my implant, because with rugby obviously I'm lucky that I can wear a scrum cap and kind of protect it in some way, but in MMA you can't. You can't wear like head guards and stuff, so it's obviously punches directly to the. So that is really difficult to get around that and I think that's a bit too far to try and persuade my parents to let me do. But yeah, I generally always said, oh, I'd love to go in MMA, I would honestly love it. But then that's sort of when I came across rugby and it's sort of similar in some ways, the contact.
Sue Anstiss:And the gladiators is almost like a controlled MMA. I wouldn't ever tell anyone in MMA I said that, but you know it's taking similar traits of the different skills, isn't it too? You mentioned rugby and your implant and everything, so can you talk a little bit about that process and how that was for your parents of your finding?
Jodie Ounsley:rugby and then allowing you to go and play something that is a, you know, a very physical contact sport yeah well, the whole reason why I started it later on because obviously I would have loved rugby when I was younger but basically my mum and dad didn't allow me to play rugby but not from a not sort of from a perspective of saying, no, we don't want you playing rugby. It was purely because people with cochlear implants get told not to do contact sports because of the risks. There's two risks. So the one risk is like the actual sort of the processor that sits on my ear that's just where the batteries are. That could break, I suppose, but that can be replaced.
Jodie Ounsley:The bigger risk is because obviously I've got a magnet under my skin and then this part is a magnet as well, so it just, you know, just sticks to my head. But the risk is, if I got a hard enough impact straight direct onto the magnet, then it could like dislodge it and obviously, as you can imagine, that's a lot of complications. It could be very painful and even having to have another operation. And I've actually heard people from like who I know who have, you know, dislodged the magnet and had to have a reoperation, but then they've had strokes and stuff. So obviously they they advise people not to do contact sports. Because why would you if there's those complications?
Sue Anstiss:how on earth did you persuade your parents to let you play then? As a parent, as a mother, I'm thinking that's just not gonna happen.
Jodie Ounsley:I know so obviously, like it was just always no, you're not playing rugby and they tried directing me in different sports and that's probably why I did so many different sports, because they were just trying to keep me away from all the contact sports.
Jodie Ounsley:But I wanted to do fighting and you know anyway. So you know, with the rugby, how it really came to surface was my younger brother started playing and he, you know, I went to watch him train. I went to watch him like play games and just seeing him train and play, I was just like, oh, that is so unfair. Do you know, when it just boils your blood that you can't do something because someone's saying you can't do it? Well, obviously I knew it was for the right reasons. It wasn't just saying you can't play rugby because you're a girl or something like that, it was because of the medical reasons. So the more I watched him, the more I watched him like train and play. I just wanted to do it and I think my parents could see how much I really wanted to do it and and they heard it, because they're the most supportive parents ever They've only ever supported me, only ever, you know, pushed me into sports, you know, because it's something I'm good at. So for them to see me how much it was it was getting me down, because I was like I feel like I could be good at this and I think they kind of gave in, to be honest. So my dad, he spent weeks being honest, just because that's his person, he is. He spent weeks reaching out to specialists, like medical, like doctors, and just saying what are the risks and is there a certain way we can get around this? So then you know, we can allow my daughter to play rugby. And obviously they came back and saying, look, no, you shouldn't be doing this, like you shouldn't be doing contact sports altogether. I know she wants to play rugby, but it's just not you shouldn't be doing it. But my dad did not give in so anyway was like, well, is there ways we can wear a like a padded helmet or something like that? And then we came across a rugby scrum cap. It was like, oh, maybe we could try this. And then he added extra padding in it just for the first time of doing it. And it was like, right, okay, number one rule if you want to play rugby or if you want to train, you have to wear your scrum cap or you're not doing it. So that was so. That's what we agreed on. I thought, fine, yeah. So he said, right, I'll let you go down to a rugby session, thinking that I'd just do this session, get out of my system, then just get bored of it and go on to a different sport. So I was absolutely ecstatic that he let me.
Jodie Ounsley:So anyway, we went down to the local sort of rugby club, which was Sandal, up in Wakefield. We went into their car park and, I kid you not, I was that nervous. I was in. I was an absolute mess.
Jodie Ounsley:I was like I even turned around to my dad. I said, dad, I don't want to do this anymore. Can we just go home now, in the best way possible? He turned around. He said I'm not being funny, but like all this nagging, like trying to get us to, you know, allow you to play rugby now you want to go home. And then he obviously signed up. He was like look, julie, I know you're nervous, but you know you'll. You know you'll enjoy it. You know you'll meet new people, you meet the girls, you'll get to learn, you know the laws of the game. Because I didn't know anything about rugby at this point. I've just sort of watched it and it was like you'll feel good afterwards that you've done it and you'll be happy that you've done it. So, to be honest, if he hadn't given me that little pep talk, I would have been very like no, I don't want to do it anymore, let's just go home, I'm too nervous how old were you?
Sue Anstiss:how old were you then?
Jodie Ounsley:I remember I was like 15 that's how shy I was. I was so shy I just didn't have confidence, um, anyway. So it was a whole thought of meeting new people and then also the thought of I don't know anything about rugby, like I don't know the laws. So I think it was just a whole mixture. Anyway, I saw a couple of girls walking past and I thought, right, I'll get out the car and quickly go over. And then, um, yeah, they were amazing. Like as soon as I sort of walked up to the fields, they were just all welcoming, they're just like. They came up to me and was like who are you? Like I'm so and so. And then the coaches were the same, and because my dad spoke to the coach on the phone previously before going to the club, just to explain that I'm deaf and stuff, so it wasn't like a shock, you know. So they were prepared and stuff. But yeah, they were amazing. And then, even if I didn't know anything about rugby, they were just. I even remember like, at this point I didn't even know you had to like pass the ball backwards literally. So they were just amazing, like they really broke it down and just made me feel comfortable.
Jodie Ounsley:Um, and then, I think literally the next weekend or so, he said, oh, do you want to be on the bench and play for us? I was like what? And oh, I went on and I tripped over my own shoelaces. How embarrassing. I tripped over my own shoelaces, fell back, I thought what am I doing here? Got up and then I just remember the ball popping up to me and honestly, I just caught the ball and I just ran for my life and then I scored and I remember my dad was under there like sticks and my granddad, and they were just so happy for me and I think from that moment I was like, yeah, I think I'm going to enjoy rugby and that's how it from there. So, yeah, I didn't forget about it and now we're here and I've seen that footage.
Sue Anstiss:That video is the footage there, that first try. It is amazing. So you obviously knew pass backwards and the ruck and to just run when you got the ball because that was, you know. It's just so powerful to see. It's lovely to hear how inclusive and welcoming the club was, you know, down in Wakefield, but have you found that generally throughout rugby? And obviously you've, will you know you've gone on to progress, uh, in terms of your representative stuff, but did you find every level rugby has been inclusive for you.
Jodie Ounsley:Yeah, like, absolutely obviously, like from sort of the deafness side of things, but even just just being one of those sports like like, as people keep saying, you can literally come from any background, any body, shape, anything Like it does not matter. Once you get into the rugby field, people just bring you in and that's what I love about rugby, like you're just a family and people, regardless who you are, they just accept you and you just all have a love for rugby, you all have a love for sport. But then in terms of like my deafness, I think rugby has 100% like changed me as a person, like my confidence and everything. And like I said when I was going through school, I didn't, I didn't talk about it, I didn't like I said I never even asked for like help or anything like that and I'll try and I wouldn't hide it. But I'd like with my processor now it's white. I would have never had a white one at school, I would have probably tucked it under my hair and stuff like that. And it was only when I went into the England 7 setup when it completely changed.
Jodie Ounsley:So it's funny because, like, obviously, when I was going into the program, like the coaches and players. They were obviously aware that I was like a deaf person, a deaf like player going into the program, but like they've never experienced that, especially in an elite sort of performance, and I think it was all new to them. So they were obviously aware before I went in and I remember my first day again, I was in a mess but I actually went, I actually went, I actually went, I went in. Anyway, they were all so welcoming, brought me in like their own, but I remember there was such a big elephant in the room, not one person I could sense they didn't dare ask about my deafness or anything like that. I think people in general they're just scared of saying the wrong thing or they feel like they can't ask me things. But it's the opposite and it just happened that the coaches said, right, as like a team bonding session, we want you to do a little presentation on yourselves, just to explain your journey, who you are, your rugby career, and get up in front of the team and just do this presentation. So obviously just doing a presentation was like absolutely terrifying for me because it's you know, these are all players I've been watching on the tv, like you know, in the olympics, on the world series.
Jodie Ounsley:And now I'm stood here on about presentation about myself and like it was. It was like Abby Brown before me and she was telling a whole career and and then it was like me next. I thought how am I gonna compare to that anyway? So I got off and I thought that would be a great opportunity to actually speak about my deafness, which, again, I wouldn't really do much of that.
Jodie Ounsley:So I got all pictures from me growing up and like my levels of deafness and how I got into rugby and whatnot. And I kid you not, from that moment on, like when we finished and stuff, like the girls were just asking me questions and it was just like they were. It was fine, there's nothing awkward about it, nothing like they were nervous, I think because I just spoke so openly about it. They felt like comfortable to ask me questions and they went above and beyond the team and the staff just to try and make it as easy as possible being on the pitch and stuff. For example, like they would mic me up and we had like a drone filming our training sessions. So basically they mic'd me up and there were like another guy filming me on a different camera, just my movements.
Jodie Ounsley:So I was mic'd up to this separate camera and then basically we did that to see what the picture was, what everyone else was doing, but then to also see what I'm hearing or not hearing in that situation. So it was like amazing to see what like players could be hearing in that situation or seeing. But then I'm in that same situation of what I'm maybe not hearing and basically how we can make it easier with communication and stuff. And look back at footage. It was amazing, like it shocked me, how much the players and staff generally wanted to help me and make it easier on the field and stuff. So from that moment on that just grew my confidence and be more open about in like this is where I struggle, this is what could help, and things like that. So it was pretty special that's amazing, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss:and I think it's such an important message of the you're feeling confident to share to enable people to feel braver to ask the questions. Because it's exactly that I think I'm. I feel like exactly the same. It's almost like a bit I don't want to make you uncomfortable, you don't want to ask things, but you, but people want to know. Then they can you behave differently? And you've obviously moved on then to do so much on social media and your TikTok and I think 5 million views of your videos, of 130,000 people following you Did that come from? That? Almost You're beginning to share more generally with people your story around the challenges you face, but also explaining to people what it means to you in your day-to-day life. Yeah, like.
Jodie Ounsley:That's the whole reason why I think I think it was because I generally saw the impact on myself more more than anything like just by me actually speaking openly about it built my confidence, as well as, obviously, other like ways and awareness for other people to understand better. Because that's all I found is people just generally have a bit of a lack of awareness and that's all. It is like people not being arrogant or anything like that they just probably don't know, or you know, how to act, or they just don't like, especially if you haven't met a deaf person before you just you just have no idea and that's natural. I think it would literally, literally probably just become out of lockdown and I thought, oh right, this was. I was not on TikTok, everyone were dancing on TikTok. So I was like, oh, so I downloaded it and me and mum tried to do this TikTok dance, right, and obviously we were awful. But then I actually remember sort of seeing other videos that were nothing to do with dancing. So I thought, all right, do people actually use this for business and stuff and, like you know different things? So I thought, all right, maybe I could do a video just on a deaf awareness video and just see how it is.
Jodie Ounsley:And I think I literally put one video on of me just taking my implant off, saying, oh, this is my cochlear implant.
Jodie Ounsley:If I take it off, you know, I can't hear any sound blah, blah, blah, and that all it was and that completely blew up and the feedback I got from it was amazing just sort of people asking the questions and feeling like they can ask me the questions and just like mostly parents with young deaf kids saying, oh, this is so good to you know, have this information. You know, because most of most of my following are actually either teachers or parents who with kids who are like literally babies and they're deciding whether to have a cochlear implant, or they don't know what your life can look like with a cochlear implant. And me just doing these little videos is giving well, as in their words, giving them reassurance and sort of just giving them that confidence to go with that decision and stuff. So, yeah, like the more I've done it and the more feedback I've seen from people, it's it's only done wonders for myself, but most importantly, I just want to help other people. So it's, it's crazy, but yeah, just what a little video can do.
Sue Anstiss:And yeah, and how does that feel? How do you feel to be getting that feedback and knowing you're having, I guess, both for the deaf community but just more broadly in society, to be raising awareness to?
Jodie Ounsley:I mean, to me it's bizarre, like I still don't get my head around it. To me I'm just, you know, in my head I'm a girl who loves rugby, I'm playing rugby. I'm a girl who's, you know, a little bit deaf, but you know, I just like play rugby and I have a love for that. But then there's also a big part of me that I've just I've always wanted to help people, no matter what the situation. I just love to help people, I love to be a good person, I love just being just spread positive energy, basically, um, so in a way that I can do that it's. It's bizarre because I feel like, and just to feedback, even the other day I got, um, it was it. I literally nearly started crying. This is how much it touched me. So last year when the Sevens girls had an opportunity to play at Twickenham, we played our games and then we sort of went round Twickenham and obviously signing autographs and stuff, and then there was a young girl and a young boy who were shouting me or something and they both had cochlear implants and then they were sort of saying, oh, it's so good that you've got a cochlear implant, we're matching, it's really cool that we're matching, and, oh, it really touched my heart. I was, honestly, I was like an emotional wreck anyway. So we were just talking and I was like, oh, do you play rugby? And she was like, no, I don't play rugby because of my cochlear implant. And I was like, all right, well, I've been playing. Obviously, if you get like a little scrum cap, we can be matching with the scrum caps as well. So, anyway, she were lovely, she's absolutely sweetheart.
Jodie Ounsley:And then, um left and then literally, so a year on, literally, yes, well, like two days ago or something, I got a message from the parents, from her dad, showing a picture of us together, because we had a picture together when I was signing an autograph, and he said something like oh, I hope you remember this photo. This is my daughter, she's now playing rugby and she's absolutely loving every minute. And then he sent me the photo of her playing rugby and she looked savage and she had like this multi-coloured scrum cap and honestly, I got goosebumps when I watched it because I just thought that's crazy. I'm just doing what I love doing. I'm just doing rugby, I'm just trying to be a good person. And then when I get messages like that, I just can't get my head around it and it just makes your heart warm. That's all I can say. Yeah, absolutely.
Sue Anstiss:Absolutely, and from all the content you share. I love your parents from all the content you share. I love your parents from all the content you share, but it's really clear that that support and their support has been so important to you. So how did they react when they heard that you were listed in the BBC Women's Hour power list for the women in sport?
Jodie Ounsley:yeah, they were. So they were so chuffed for me like they are literally my biggest, biggest supporters ever, like I generally think without my parents I wouldn't be the person I am today. 100%, they've done nothing but support me. But not just support me Because, obviously, with all my confidence and struggling with my confidence and quite a lot of self-doubt and stuff like that, they have always been like no, jodie, you know, snap out of that, you're brilliant, you can do it. And just constantly having my back and yeah. So, um, they're amazing. And even now they're just like my mom is literally my best friend and I'm not even, I'm not even ashamed of admitting it. We're just like everyone thinks, we're sisters, just with how we are.
Jodie Ounsley:So, um, yeah, they're brilliant, like my dad, obviously, through, you know, growing up, being in all the sport, you know, doing the climbing wall for me, setting up rings, just all these things. It's just because he's a brilliant parent, he's a brilliant person and just wants to support me. And then, obviously, my mum she was the one who took me to rehab and speech therapy every day during the week and she even had to step away from her job just to spend more time with me so she could do, you know, speech therapy with me and more repetition, because obviously the more repetition the better your speech and just things like that. And you know she's such a hard working person, she's like she's got such a pure heart and the kindest person ever, and I literally always think if I'm like the half the person my mum is, then I'm all right. So that's all I think anyway.
Sue Anstiss:Oh, that's so lovely, so lovely to hear. You're honorary president of UK Deaf Sport and patron of the Elizabeth Foundation, a UK charity for young deaf children. So why are those roles so important to you as well? Because that's a lot to take on with everything else that you're doing too.
Jodie Ounsley:Well, with the Elizabeth Foundation, it's such like something so close to my heart, because obviously that's the charity where obviously I'm saying all about the speech, vaping, the rehab, that's where I did all the speech. So I started with them when I was I was about three months old, so even before I got my cochlear implant and they were amazing, like absolutely amazing people, what they do and just not even just for myself, and just what they do for the parents, you know, giving them the support, giving them, you know just the reassurance and just feel like they're not on their own in the situation and stuff like that. So, yeah, then they basically asked me to be patron and I was like, obviously, who would turn that down? So, um, it just meant so much and, yeah, they're just brilliant.
Jodie Ounsley:And the same with UK deaf sport like obviously going through the deaf olympics and just sport in general. I'm so passionate about not just like encouraging, you know, deaf kids getting into rugby, but sport in general. So, yeah, two things I'm very passionate about. So obviously it's quite challenging to juggle it all, but obviously when you're passionate about something, you know it's something you just want to do.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, it's lovely to hear your kind of passion and enthusiasm for that whole space too. Finally, I'd be really interested to know I know you've talked about kind of deafness as your superpower and you kind of do feel it's something that has enabled you to go and do other things. So how do you feel it has made you stronger as an individual, as an athlete and as a as a person too?
Jodie Ounsley:I have said it's like a superpower, but I don't want people to think, oh, it's, it's all amazing and it's. It's the way I see it as a superpower is. You know, it is a daily struggle, it is challenging on a daily basis, but it's allowed me to think outside the box and, you know, adapt and think of different ways to get things done. So in some ways, like because I'm deaf, I'm a lot more visual. So on the rugby field, that's amazing, because coaches just want you to be more visual and see the space. The rugby field, that's amazing, because coaches just want you to be more visual and see the space. So I think it's allowed me to, you know, just adapt and think of solutions and work harder in some aspects, I suppose, and just, you know, be more confident, be more outgoing with people asking for help and just all these things. If I wasn't deaf, I don't think I would have been the person I am today. So, yeah, in that context, that's why I think it's a superpower and it's obviously you're different, that's all I'm saying.
Sue Anstiss:But that's not a bad thing, that's a it's a good thing and you've got to embrace it, I suppose and in terms of what we can all do to better understand your world and make sport more inclusive for everyone. If you had to leave with some kind of tips or advice of what you'd like to see from your experience, what would that be?
Jodie Ounsley:I literally would just say don't be afraid to ask. Like if someone came up to me and if they said something like, oh, is there any way we can make things a bit easier on the field, or something like that, or is there anything you prefer just to make it that bit easier, I think, oh, that's, that's really good of them to ask that, because normally people like I said are too scared to even say anything or just avoid it. I just advise people to be more open-minded and not afraid, just to speak about it, because that's what we need to do just speak about it.
Sue Anstiss:What an amazing woman jodie is. I can't wait to see her on gladiators later this year. Head over to fearlesswomencouk to find previous episodes, where I've spoken to other incredible rugby legends, including sarah Hunter, maggie Alfonsi, sue Day, shauna Brown, emma Mitchell and Karen Finlay. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. You can sign up for the Fearless Women newsletter, which highlights the developments in global women's sport, and there's more about my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport.
Sue Anstiss:Thanks again to Sport England for backing the game changers with the National Lottery Award, and to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such an incredible job as our executive producer. The Game Changers is free to listen to and you can find it on all podcast platforms. Do follow us or subscribe to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, and if you have a moment to leave a review or a rating, that would be great, as it really helps us to reach new audiences. Do come and say hello on social media, or you'll find me on Instagram, linkedin and Twitter at Sue Anstis. The Game Changers Fearless women in sport.
