The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
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You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Ellie Simmonds: Making impact beyond the pool
As we look forward to the Paralympics at Paris 2024, we're sharing this previous episode with Paralympian Ellie Simmonds, which was first released on October 23, 2023.
Our guest in this episode is Ellie Simmonds, one of the world’s most celebrated Paralympians. A five-time Paralympic Champion and 14-time World Champion, Ellie shot to fame when she won her first Paralympic medals aged just 13, at the Beijing Paralympic Games.
After two gold medals there in 2008, Ellie went even better at London 2012. As the poster girl for the home games, she won 4 medals, including two Golds, and broke a further two World records. This success in London helped make Ellie the most recognised Paralympic athlete in Great Britain, if not the world. Rio 2016 saw Ellie once again top of the podium, winning another Gold and setting a new world record in the Individual Medley.
Ellie retired from the pool in 2021 after her fourth Paralympics Games in Tokyo, finishing her career with an incredible 5 Paralympic gold medals, 14 World titles, 10 European titles and countless World records broken along the way.
Ellie continues to work with a variety of charities including the Dwarf Sports Association, WaterAid, the Scouts and I AM WATER.
In recent years it’s been fabulous to see Ellie’s work in the media. Along with making powerful documentaries, Ellie’s been a guest on some of the country’s most popular shows including Celebrity Googlebox, celebrity Masterchef – which she won – and her appearance on BBC’s Strictly Come Dancing last year which cemented her status as one of the nation’s most well-loved personalities.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport exploring their stories as we consider wider issues around equality in sport and beyond. I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, sport England, who support the game changers to a national lottery award. My guest today is Ellie Simmons, one of the world's most celebrated Paralympians. A five-time Paralympic champion and 14-time world champion, ellie shot to fame when she won her first Paralympic medals aged just 13 at the Beijing Paralympic Games. After two gold medals there in 2008, ellie went even better at London 2012. As a poster girl for the home games, she won four medals, including two golds, and broke two world records. The success in London helped Ellie become one of the most recognised Paralympic athletes in Great Britain, if not the world. Rio 2016 saw Ellie once again top of the podium, winning another gold and setting a new world record in the individual medley. Ellie retired from the pool in 2021 after her fourth Paralympic Games in Tokyo, finishing her career with an incredible five Paralympic golds, 14 world titles, 10 European titles and countless world records broken along the way.
Sue Anstiss:Ellie continues to work with a variety of charities, including the Dwarf Sports Association, wateraid, the Scouts and I Am Water. In recent years, it's been fabulous to see Ellie's work in the media. Along with making powerful documentaries, ellie's been a guest on some of the country's most popular shows, including Celebrity Gogglebox, celebrity MasterChef, which she won, and her appearance on BBC's Strictly Come Dancing last year, which cemented her status as one of the nation's most well-loved personalities. So, ellie, I'd like to start, if I can, with the work that you're doing now, and especially around the work with the oceans. I know that ocean conservation has been a passion of yours for many, many years, so can you tell us how that interest started in the first place?
Ellie Simmonds:Yeah, I think for me, like I love water not just because it's been my sport and my life for so, so many years I like to swim at the age of five and then, with what I've gone and done and the Paralympics and World Championships, and smelling of chlorine every single day, or bar sunday sometimes, if I could get it off me, um, but yeah, for me, I was loved water, but there was always a bit of that fear of the ocean. I think a lot of people have this, are a bit scared of the ocean. I think it's always portrayed in quite a negative way in the media, you know, with the likes of jewels and all that type of stuff. And I had this amazing opportunity. I've always had a dream. You know, when you you're a kid, you have dream of like swimming with dolphins or swimming in the sea, and I had a dream of swimming with dolphin. Way back in 2016, before my third Paralympics in Rio, I got an amazing opportunity to go out South Africa and swim with dolphin for an ITV documentary and it was about conquering that fear. And since I had that trip and conquered that fear, it's enlightened my world. It's shown me such a different side and now my love for the ocean and what's out there has grown. So I went on that trip as well.
Ellie Simmonds:I got friendly with a lady called Hanley Prinsloo who's actually a free diver, and also as well it clicked because of her training was all about holding her breath and with swimming as well. Like it was really important for me to try and hold my breath as long as possible and really get in that meditated state of super relaxed when you're racing and stuff. So we worked really really well together and we clicked in her training when you're racing and stuff. So we worked really really well together and we clicked and her training like I learned from her a lot with my training and we just yet got really really good friends. And she's also so, so passionate about ocean conservation in South Africa because that's where she lives and she's got a charity called I Am Water which I started like getting involved in and actually volunteered some of my time and went to South Africa for a month afterwards and stuff.
Ellie Simmonds:And it just yet opened my world and I feel like now there's so much more we can do about oceans and saving that massive, massive world out there, because majority of this world is covered by water, even us in the United Kingdom, we've got rivers, lakes you know, in Birmingham there's the canals and we've got the sea around us and it's so important that we show people what the beauty that is out there and to save it as well, and especially in the media. Now there's all about climate change, which is impacting every single one of us, and I think sometimes we forget that, but actually it is, and it's really really important that we all do something about it and to not just save this planet, but save these beautiful oceans and the creatures that are in them and can you tell us a little bit about the the sheba coral restoration program you've been supporting?
Sue Anstiss:I've been watching on instagram and seeing the amazing posts that you've played there oh, that's been an incredible opportunity.
Ellie Simmonds:So I've been working with Shiva and, who are part of Mars Cooperations and um. Their and one of their initiatives is coral restoration and for me, that just fits and is part of my passion as well, about saving not just the creatures but also coral as well, because coral has a it's like trees in the ocean. So I've been very, very lucky to go out to Indonesia and to see one of the projects and meet full hand the whole community that is getting part of the coral reef restoration. But now it's not just. It started in indonesia way back in 2019, but now there's so many other countries that are following that program so it's spread to I think 32 countries now are um using this whole coral restoration program to make change into the oceans and, yeah, it was definitely one of those trips that I absolutely loved and it just again opened my eyes to that beautiful world out there.
Sue Anstiss:That's lovely and the power of you, of me only seeing that through watching your Instagram and seeing what you're doing and learning too. So it's a hugely powerful way to communicate about it too. And I wonder, what's it like now, swimming with a mask and fins and, you know, in a wetsuit rather than being in the pool? Does it bring you the same joy in in the sea and swimming in the sea?
Ellie Simmonds:yeah, no, it does, definitely. I think that's now my love, you know, for a different type of water. Give me a bit of sea salt. You know, I'm not still not a fan of getting my mask or goggles filled with water. When I was a swimmer, that was one of my massive fears of when I used to race. I used to try and stuck my goggles to my eyes so that, like no water would get in. But I think for me now, like I've swam for so many years, like I love swimming and I love everything about it, but I think I need the need a bit of a mental break from that lane swimming. So now it's like, yeah, it's changed to wearing a wetsuit, wearing a mask, a snorkel, getting into the sea, but I absolutely love it. I'm I'm still not a fan of cold water, you know. So I'm give me hot sea and I'm happy, you know. But cold sea is definitely a different ball game.
Sue Anstiss:I'm a cold water fan, so I'll have to get you, get you involved in that more. I love cold water, yeah this open water swimming is.
Ellie Simmonds:It's gone huge and I'm so, so happy about it. I saw on your show, your movie, chatting to people that were open. Oh, actually you were open water swimming at the start. Yeah, and swimming in that lake and yeah, it's a massive passion and it's amazing that so many people are getting into that passion and getting into that thing of open water swimming and swimming, because, again, I've not done it, I've only done it in hot places. But I think it's quite liberating, isn't it? And it wakes you up and it starts your day of just swimming in cold water.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, Good for the soul. I say Good for the soul, so I wonder if I can take you out of the ocean and back into the pool. But the, I can take you out of the ocean and back into the pool, but the young Ellie, you talk about that kind of love of swimming that you had. So how did you first discover it? How did you first come to swimming?
Ellie Simmonds:um, so it started at the age of five, do you know, just like a majority of children out there, just learning to swim to be safe around the water. I'm from a big, big family. I've got three sisters and one brother, and my parents gave them the opportunity to learn to swim and I remember sitting at the sidelines watching my sister swimming and next thing I knew it was me learning to swim. So it wasn't a factor of like this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. It was just because to be safe around the water. But actually, where I learned to swim in Bowlmere Swimming Club in Sutton, coalfield in Birmingham, it wasn't just the learn to swim side of the swimming club. There was also a competitive side as well. And me I've even now, as a 28 year old, I've throughout my life I'm very, very competitive, and when I was younger I was um, do you know, when you're young, you want to get your 10 meter badge, your 20 meter badge, all these different types of badges. That was me. I wanted to get everything. I was like I want to be better every single time I swim. And where I learned to swim, the coach at the time, ashley Cox, used to come to the learn to swim side of the swimming club and used to come and say like, oh, this is the competitive side, this is like the training we think you might be good for it, come and Come and try it out. And yeah, I just ended up going and learning and swimming for the competitive side of the swimming club.
Ellie Simmonds:And when I was younger I didn't just swim, I did so many other activities as well. I was very much. I think my mum was very happy that I was the youngest because I was always doing something. I was never one of those children that could sit and watch TV Like. That wasn't me. I was never a sit and watch TV type person. I was always doing either like ballet, stage, school swimming, even outside on my bike, you know, in the cool you sat playing with friends, or on the trampoline and for me, like swimming ended up just taking over because I realized that actually I just loved it because of the friends I sail swimming once a week. I remember going home to my mom and saying well, ashley said, if I want to be a bit better, I need to swim a bit more. So all the other activities would end up going and I'll be doing like swimming twice a week, three times a week, and then on the weekend I started swimming for my swimming club competitively at the local galas on the weekend and there's loads of children out there that do that. They're called Diddly Galas and I just loved it.
Ellie Simmonds:Like I absolutely loved swimming competitively and I didn't do well, like, but it's actually more just the fact that what I realized looking back now, which Ashley and Balmy Swimming Club were amazing at was including me like everyone else, like yes, I had to work harder, but they were so good at adapting and treating me like every single other child out there, even though I didn't swim well for the swimming club. I didn't get them points or anything, but for me it was just being part of that team, being part of the friendship going on the minibus, like everyone else, being part of that whole team just brought me so much joy and it was so amazing. And I think, like now I say to coaches out there in clubs like if you have a disabled swimmer, treat them exactly the same as anyone else, because it gives them so much joy and being part of it is just, it's just life-changing. And I think having to work that bit harder to keep up with my non-disabled peers actually made me work harder. So now I think that's why, in a sense, what I've achieved because of when I was younger, I wanted to be with them, I wanted to keep up with them and at those galas I wasn't yeah, wasn't winning, but I still just loved it. But I think the life-changing moment was actually watching Athens 2004 Paralympics, because at that time, even before that nine, ten-year-old, I didn't know that there was disability galas. I didn't know that there was disability galas. I didn't know there was actually disability competitions. I was just, like I said, competing for my swimming club against non-disabled athletes. But that turning point was Athens 2004,.
Ellie Simmonds:Sitting on that sofa and realizing that there's people like me on the TV, that there's Paralympic swimming, that there is the Paralympics, and I remember saying to saying to my mum like how old do you have to be to go to the Paralympics? What do you have to do? And my mum was like, oh, you just have to be really, really good. You can be any age. Well, there is an age limit, there's 12, you have to be older than 12. But um, and I think as a kid like that was when my dream started I was like I want to be a Paralympian, I want to get a gold medal. That is my dream, never thinking that I was going to be achieved or four years later I was going to achieve it but that was the starting point. I think that's why TV and coverage of not just the Olympics but Paralympics and sport in general is so powerful because you never know who's sitting on the sofa. I can get inspired and eventually maybe become an Olympian or Paralympian.
Sue Anstiss:Absolutely, absolutely, just find the joy in sport for life, isn't it? And I've watched your incredible, moving documentary my Secret Family on ITV. For those that haven't seen it yet, I would advise that they do, which is it was absolutely fantastic, but it really does paint a lovely picture of home life and such a happy, happy childhood that you have. So how did your dwarfism impact your young life growing up? Because, from all you described and all that you did as a young person, it doesn't feel like it was as negative as some might believe. No, no, no not at all.
Ellie Simmonds:It's never really impacted me with me, I think, again from the big family that I have and growing up and my parents have been amazing at just treating us and showing us that we can do anything, no matter what, like we might have to adapt, and so I think they gave me a really, really good outlook on life from growing up to where I am now. So I think, in a sense, like having that outlook of life and having those parents that gave me such a positive childhood and a great childhood, it's just yeah, no, had no, no, no impact at all. And this next next to me has dwarfism and my sister has learning difficulties. So I've always been around people who have different disabilities and I think, again, that's been a really, really positive thing.
Sue Anstiss:And you obviously had this huge success as a young swimmer. Was there a moment you can look back? When you think back and remember when you realized that you were so good in the pool?
Ellie Simmonds:I think it was actually Beijing in 2008. I think that was the turning point because I think, like before, that I was just doing what I loved and I still love it now. But I mean, I was just a kid, you know, I was 12, 13, I was just competing, swimming and not really thinking about it, just having fun with friends, having fun with the team and going away all the time. And I again, I qualified, had an amazing 2008 trials in April, qualified for the Paralympics Never, but even then, like that was the first time I ever broke a world record. Even then I never realized that actually I was good. I think it was actually going into Beijing and getting the gold medal and especially that first one in the 100 meters freestyle. I think that's when it clicked, that actually, oh my gosh, ellie, you're the best in the world, you've just got a Paralympics.
Ellie Simmonds:But I think sometimes, like I know, even looking back now in my career, I think when you're an athlete, you never really look back at your past career. You're always moving forward and I think I've always been like that and in a sense, maybe looking back now, I should have um, stopped a bit more and really, really took in, like my achievements and really took in those moments where I swam well or got medals, or got gold medals or stood on the podium, because I was always thinking forward all the time, even in Beijing, like we were going to those games for experience, and then we knew that we had London 2012, which was going to be the biggest games, biggest Paralympics ever. So even in Beijing, I was just, yeah, we're thinking forwards, which I think now, looking back, I probably should have stopped and taken it in a bit more.
Sue Anstiss:Absolutely. You moved to Swansea with your mum when you were just at 11 so you could train at the world-class facility with an elite squad.
Ellie Simmonds:How hard was that, as you look back, to leave home and school, friends and friendship groups at that time you know what actually like it was the best thing I've ever done, like I loved my Swansea time and I think it shows like just how incredible my parents are for making that sacrifice and that dedication to give me the amazing opportunity to train in Swansea with Billy Pye, who I started training with when I was 12 and I retired with him with 28. We've gone through my whole career together and he's not just the most amazing coaches but he's my best friend and family friend now and I see him like I went hiking with him on the weekend in Wales and stuff, so to have that relationship with him from all those years. But I think for me, like a hand up, I don't think I would have done what I did in my career if we hadn't made that move and credit to my parents for the sacrifice and stuff. But for me it was the most amazing thing. I got to go to Swansea and train in a Paralympic squad who were like family.
Ellie Simmonds:It was the best years. There was 12 of us training towards Beijing and training towards towards London 2012 and we were like family. We were not just training together all the time, but we used to go out in the evening, you know, celebrate everyone's birthdays, go away on camps all the time. And then also the school in Swansea, oakford I moved to when I was in year seven and left um after sixth form was the most amazing school and Welsh people I don't know if you see, if you've been to Wales but Welsh people are the most friendliest people ever like. They're literally so, so nice and they welcomed me into the school and welcomed me into Swansea like, like a massive bear hug. It was just the most amazing time and I still go back to Wales like, like I said, I went last weekend and I've still got great friends and family and well, not family, but they are like family to me in Wales and still it was the most great seven years of my my life.
Sue Anstiss:In terms of the Paralympics and being in Beijing. You were the youngest person in that team, at 13, which we often talked about, but did you really feel that you were included as part of a team with those older swimmers there?
Ellie Simmonds:Yeah, I think you know what I think when you're a kid, when you're 13, you don't really think of the pressure, because I think you're still a kid, aren't you? And I think it's not till like London 2012 and beyond, you actually realize how big a Paralympics is and actually take, like, the outer world on board. But for me, going as a 13 year old, going to Beijing and then afterwards, my teammates, my friends, my British women team, were the most amazing team ever. Like the likes of Liz Nairi, all the girls and all the boys like took me just under their wing and like. I'm best friends with all of them still now, like it was just.
Ellie Simmonds:I was so thankful for that that they looked after me, that they yes, like you said, I was the youngest person by quite a long time on the team, but they were like my, my big sisters. They were just the most amazing teammates, amazing friends ever. They they even included me in everything you know in, not the drinking or the. I couldn't go out with them, which I was always so sad about. I had to stay in the hotel when I was 18 on the team. I was so happy because I could join in all the partying, but beforehand I was like, oh no, but no, they're so good like all of them. And during the team and I think that's one of the amazing things about the support team of British women like we had someone to help with school work. I was off school a lot of times, like I did my GCSEs in a Spanish school. When we were training, I did my A-levels abroad as well, like I was away from school quite a lot.
Sue Anstiss:I didn't realise that. Wow, that is incredible. I was going to ask you about that balancing for those two Olympic cycles of school, but I hadn't even thought about that. You're literally not being there at all. Moving on to London 2012 you're 17 years old then and you're like the poster girl for the London Paralympics. So what kind of pressure did you feel ahead of those games, when you almost talked about going into Beijing and not having the pressure? But how different did it feel coming into London 2012?
Ellie Simmonds:Oh, london 2012 was a different kettle of fish. The pressure on not just my shoulders but I think a lot of the home British athlete soldiers was immense and I think, in a way, of what I had achieved in Beijing with those two goals and then coming home, as soon as I landed from Beijing, I think maybe the media sponsors just like attached themselves to me, um, which was good, but it also had it's like and nerve-wracking things as well because, again, being like one of the home favorites, it just meant that the pressure was immense because people even before I was going to London and even before I raced, people were expecting me to get those golds already and it just created a massive, massive pressure on my and I think going into those games really made me realize how important psychologists were and my support team, like my parents and my coach, because they really helped like chat things through, really focus on the psychological side of the sport, whereas before that I really didn't take that on board. I was just going out racing where actually the mental side had a massive part to play in it. So for me, london 2012 was just the most nerve-wracking experience and when I got that first gold medal, I think the feeling had changed.
Ellie Simmonds:Like with Beijing, it was all amazing when I got the gold. It was just incredible was that when I touched the wall on first 400 meters freestyle and saw I did the PB and world record and goals, the feeling was relief that I'd done it, that I could finally say I got a gold medal around my neck, and all those expectations and pressure from sponsors, the public, sport, the people in the crowd, all of those like I could finally say I've got the gold medal. And it would just get relaxed after that, like I've just done it. And I think I hear like a lot of athletes actually felt that in London 2012, especially home athletes, you know, because there was a lot of being a home games. We had a home crowd, you know. We had friends, family in the audience.
Sue Anstiss:In the audience I'm sounding like I'm back on Strictly In the spectator, you know, but yeah, I was going to say I have that image of you from London a forking on poolside in your fantastic robe with your poise and posture and your headphones, and you kind of look so confident. So it is interesting. I was going to ask you whether you were as you looked. But I guess so much of that is the psychology of putting yourself in a place where you know that you can do it and just to be poor side on the Aquatic Centre. Do you still think about that today? What that was like. It gives me goosebumps thinking about it. And I wasn't even there.
Ellie Simmonds:Yeah, it's funny I think there's that Eminem song isn't there. On the surface, you look calm already, but in the side side you're about to drop bombs. And that was totally my feeling. Like coming from the call room to the, to the dive block in London 2012. I was trying to like, be positive and strong, but actually inside I was so nervous. I was the nervous, the most nervous I've ever been, and I was shaking and I was thinking why am I putting myself through this? It's a horrible, horrible feeling.
Ellie Simmonds:But then that's when my psychologist all her work that she'd done with me had a massive part to play and also the confidence in yourself as well that moment of self-belief. You know, I'd done everything I possibly could in training and I had the most amazing lead up to 2012, because that's what I wanted to do. I, even though you can't control your seven other competitors, my stance going into those games was don't have any regrets at all. So in myself, I was strong and confident in myself, but also very, very nervous. And yeah, I don't actually want to go back through to that feeling, to be honest, because it was a horrible feeling of the nerves and all that type of stuff. And so, yeah, I'll just enjoy it from now on looking back, but I will definitely don't want to transport myself back to that feeling.
Sue Anstiss:I love that You've had this massive success across your career right from the start, but there must have been disappointments too, and losses and injuries. So I wonder personally how do you cope when things aren't going to plan? And I've listened to you talking on things. I know that you're quite a planner, an organized person, but how do you cope when things don't go to plan?
Ellie Simmonds:To be honest, I'm a bit of a I spoke to some kids yesterday about it who are athletes and I must put my hand up, I was quite a sore loser, definitely very much a sore loser, and I'll take it a lot out of myself like I'll never blame other people.
Ellie Simmonds:But I would always like get so angry and so upset with myself because I would evaluate what did I do wrong.
Ellie Simmonds:But actually those times looking back in my career now, those times where I didn't go to plan, like races, or I didn't win or something didn't go right, actually I learned more about myself than when things went well, because I remember like I had a race I think I can't remember I remember just being in Eindhoven in Holland, and I had a 53 that just did not go right and as soon as I finished and I looked at the boards and I got upset with myself and had a good cry.
Ellie Simmonds:That's what I always do like let these emotions out and then as soon as I swam down and then as soon as I got my team around me and we sat down and we evaluated everything and actually then the next day and after my holiday and after my break, I was so much more motivated going into training because I was like I don't want to have that feeling again. I want to do everything I can, and even better next time. So actually those times where it didn't go well, I just evaluated my race a lot more as when a race went really really well, I would just be as high as a kite all night and the next day and I'll never actually look back at them and evaluate what went well and what didn't. So, actually looking back, yeah, I learned a lot more about myself and my race and my swimming when races didn't go to plan.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? We hear that with that kind of it's the failure and learning from failure, that's where we will learn and grow. But it's hard to take that on board sometimes, isn't it?
Ellie Simmonds:either as an athlete or just generally sometimes, isn't it either as an athlete or just generally? So also as well? I think what I learned later on in life we're going from Rio to Tokyo and I think maybe age had a massive factor is like being a woman as well and being on your period. That really affected my training. I used to take it really really out on myself when sessions didn't go well, but then also now, well, when I was older, I used to think we're not robots, are we?
Ellie Simmonds:There's some days where sessions aren't going to go well, like our body's not going to be on it all the time. We're just going to have those sessions where you just don't swim well and there's no other reasons. But especially like when I was on my period and like again I said mentioned my coach knew me from so, so many years and he'll be like Elle, are you feeling okay? Like what's coming on? Like what time of the month is it? All that type of stuff. And we were a really great to have that open relationship and talk about those types of stuff, because I think being a woman in sport is is tough when you're on your period or coming on your period and stuff. And yeah, I think it's not really spoken about much.
Sue Anstiss:I mean, it's great to hear you're talking about it, but it is. It does feel like right now, with the work that the likes of Emma Ross and Georgie Brunville and others are doing in this space, as we are now beginning at last to have those conversations about bodies and periods and how we, how it impacts. It's madness, isn't it, that it wasn't talked about in the past.
Ellie Simmonds:Yeah, I, I know it is crazy but, like you said, there's some amazing women and people that are searching and doing some research and finding out, because it does have a massive impact and so many people are different, like for me. I always used to perform so so good after my periods, but it took me ages to figure that out. It was later on in my career that I realized that maybe it should have been at the start. You know, I think women we need to be open a lot more, and not just it's not our fault at all, but I mean like the people just be able to talk about it in a comfortable manner.
Sue Anstiss:And you mentioned obviously your fantastic coach from Swansea. You had such a positive experience there and that's continued through. I'm obviously respected in your success in Beijing and London, but sadly there were issues with a bit of a bullying culture in para swimming ahead of Rio 2016 and you'd moved to Manchester to the high performance center. So I wonder how that hostile environment with with that coach not the coach that you had for all those years but how did that impact you and your performance? You know what?
Ellie Simmonds:um, I think actually it still impacts me sometimes now, and I don't haven't really. Yeah, I think it's. It's crazy when you you're I think this it shouldn't be like when you're in an environment that someone is putting you down every single day and something that you think you're good at and they tell you you're not good at it. It's those words, it's the mannerisms and it's it definitely has a massive, massive impact. And especially when you're performing, as in sport, it's hard, it's pressurized, it's hard, it's not easy, like it's not something like yeah, you see us at a paralympics or an olympics and it's all amazing, but there's it's, it's tough like, and especially swimming, it's you're in the costume, you know.
Ellie Simmonds:I remember I used to be. I was so skinny, like, looking back, I remember I used to weigh myself every single day. I used to have like half a bagel because I was worried about my weight and it was a very, very tough time. But also, as well, I look back and I think it made me now realize that, like people like that, who who put people down, like now I've got more confidence to stand up for myself, but also my teammates as well and hopefully as well it's given a wake-up call to to British swimming, but also in sport in general, that that shouldn't be.
Ellie Simmonds:You know, it's about being when you've got a coach or when you've got your team, your team around you that they should work to, in to to better you not just as an athlete but as a person, and putting yourself down and telling you using that old characteristic way, that old style of coaching just doesn't work. To have that open relationship and talking and to to support the person as a human and not just an athlete. Yeah, it's better, but you live and learn and stuff. And yeah, he's not that individualism in the sport Hopefully not, but I don't know.
Sue Anstiss:And do you think that British sport is better now in terms of finding that balance between athlete welfare and the pursuit of Olympic and Paralympic medals?
Ellie Simmonds:I can only vouch for swimming, but I think it's getting better. I think what's happened in the past, they've learned from me. Um, again, I'm not much into that world at the moment, so I don't know. But, um, from when we had our moment and the timing in rio, and afterwards it definitely changed. But again, I hope it has and I hope it's staying in the positive way and I hope it continues and you learn from it.
Ellie Simmonds:And I know that British gymnastics and gymnastics as a whole has had it and it's happened a few times in sport and hopefully for future athletes, and not just the youngsters, grassroots and Olympians, paralympians, that it doesn't happen.
Sue Anstiss:Absolutely Thank you for that. Your retirement had huge publicity in 2021. There's a real outpouring of love and emotion from people who'd found such joy in following your performances over those years. So I wonder, as you look back at that time, you know, if you had to think of one or two achievements or the medals that you are most proud of. Is that probably a question you're often asked? But are there moments, or is it the whole of your career you reflect on? You know what?
Ellie Simmonds:I think, like definitely my whole career. But I think for me, if I could say one thing, it was London 2012. I think it wasn't just because I had a great, great games and I swam the best I ever have, with personal best in the heats, personal best in the finals and having the whole medal collection as well was really nice, even though I think it would have been nice to get a, you know, an ancient gold. But I got so bit of bronze and I absolutely love it because I can look, I've got all the colors and from 2012.
Ellie Simmonds:But I think for me, just being able to be part of that change in perception of disability and Paralympic sport and saying I was able to be included in that, you know, and I think what 2012 did wasn't just change perception of disability sport but change deception of disability in society, and I think it was a catalyst and it was the most amazing thing to see and be part of, because the likes of the last leg, the likes of disability in society, was changing and it still needs to get better still, even now in 2023. But it was that changing point then and people were wanting to come and watch us. The tickets were getting sold, the venues were packed out. People, not just in the media but in the crowds in London, in the United Kingdom, people were just glued to the TV and to the success of the British Paralympic athletes and just Paralympics as a whole. It was just the most amazing thing to be part of.
Sue Anstiss:And we talk a lot today, don't we, about how hard it is for elite athletes to transition from sport, especially after such high profile careers as you had for such a long time too. So how has that been for you, that new identity beyond Ellie Simmons, the extraordinary Paralympic champion?
Ellie Simmonds:I think for me, I was always a bit like I always knew going into Tokyo I wanted to retire and I think that was really nice to be in control of that. But there's always that fear isn't there of that unknown and especially for me and loads and loads of athletes out there swimming or your sport, is your a massive identity of yourself? It was huge for me. I had a plan, like you said. Every single day I knew where I've got to be every single day. You've got your four-year plan, you've got your year plan, your month plan, your week plan and all of a sudden you come off that plane and it's like wow, like what am I going to do tomorrow, let alone next week or in a few months?
Ellie Simmonds:And yeah, it's quite liberating, it's really really nice, but it's also a bit scary as well. But it's been a very much of a roller coaster, like I've been able to do some incredible amazing things, like strictly like the two documentaries I've done, like tv stuff and meet some amazing people. But there has been days where it's a bit like what actually, is it what I want to do? You do get a bit lost and stuff, but a majority of the time it is I've had a great retirement so far and it's actually two years since I've retired, so two years has definitely flown by, but, um, yeah, it's been a really really good so far career in life and it's been wonderful to see you working in sport.
Sue Anstiss:Now you're out of the pool, but still pool side you are a real natural. I think it's great to see you reporting and commentating at the world swimming championships with the lovely Ashley Wilmot. I'm a massive fan of Ashley, yeah, um. So I just wonder, was that, was that second nature to you, that being with the microphone and just talking, or were you really out of your comfort zone there? Um?
Ellie Simmonds:you know what I love it like I really, really enjoy it and, like you said, to still be part of the sport and to still do the swimming, like again having that amazing opportunity last year at the Commonwealth Games and then this year at the World Swimming Championships, and we've got the Paris Olympics and Paralympics next year. So hopefully that. But yeah, I think like it's always learning, isn't it? Um, I've been able to speak to Claire Balden who, oh my gosh, she is the most talented, amazing woman and you just learn from her every single day and the loveliest human ever and she's so, so nice and to, to learn from her and to see her do her thing and stuff and to watch her. And then, yeah, just I think I learn every single time I do it and, like I'd still I have cock ups, I have times where it goes wrong and stuff, but we're human, you single time I do it and I still have cock-ups.
Ellie Simmonds:I have times where it goes wrong and stuff, but we're human, you know, and I do get super, super nervous because I just want to do a good job, and I want to do a good job not just for me but for the sport and for the channel I'm working for, but it's been really, really fun to have a mic and to interview the athletes and to just be involved in sport.
Sue Anstiss:I heard you talk about the beautiful flow that comes from being the very best of yourself and how you used to find that in the pool. So I wonder kind of where you're finding that in life today and whether you got that in Strictly and that learning of new skills and so on.
Ellie Simmonds:Yeah, I think that I did Strictly was the most amazing experience ever. Like. It was so, so lovely and to learn how to dance and stuff was just fabulous, even, like you know, for me, being a swimmer for a long, long time, smelling of chlorine all the time, normally having my hair in a bun, you know, wearing swimming costumes, you know, and that whole different world of like having fake tan on getting my hair done, makeup done, dresses, all that type of stuff, wearing heels every day. You know that was tough because, like the blisters that I got, but just that whole different world and opening up my eyes to it, and to be partnered with Nikita and to learn how to dance and to do that most amazing thing and to also, as well, to like.
Ellie Simmonds:We had a lot of people question as well what we were going to do. Again, he's an average height person. I've got dwarfism. We weren't a stereotypical size for ballroom or Latin and people were questioning how we were going to dance and he's never danced with someone like me before and I've never danced really like, well, never done Latin or ballroom, apart from, say, your Saturday nights, you know when. Never dance, really like, well, never done latino ballroom, apart from, say, your saturday nights, you know, when you're at a disco and things you're like raving or pulling out those classic moves, but, um, it was just the most amazing experience. And then afterwards, not just doing the show but getting to go on the tour as well and being like a rock star for six weeks, doing 32 shows all across the country, was just life-changing and the most amazing experience ever. And whoever I say, go do Strictly, it's just yeah, do it literally just say yes, it's so fabulous oh, it's lovely.
Sue Anstiss:I love that big fan, big fan of Strictly. So I guess, finally, it's been such a joy to follow your career over the past 20 odd years and yet you'd be very justified in choosing a quieter life now. But I don't feel that's the route you're likely to take. So I just wonder what are your ambitions? You've had this two years, since retirement, but do you have kind of ambitions for what you'd like to do, what you'd like to achieve in the future?
Ellie Simmonds:you know what, and normally I am very driven and very much know what I want to achieve, but actually, like, still I've not really got any goals or ambitions. Like I'd love to be part of the Paralympics and go to Paris next year and see it from a different side, like that's definitely a massive dream of mine. But away from that, you know, I'm just taking each day as it comes and just saying yes to all these amazing opportunities and not knowing where I want to be in a couple years time. And I definitely want to give back a bit more. I want to help more children and help more people with different disabilities as well. That's definitely a big ambition of mine.
Ellie Simmonds:And also my massive hobby is also traveling. I love traveling and seeing the world and seeing how beautiful it is and just yeah, also as well getting like my confidence back as well and just traveling on my own and just being okay on my own and things. That's definitely a massive ambition of mine. But helping people a bit more, giving back and, yeah, traveling I think that's my three ambitions actually.
Sue Anstiss:How lovely is Ellie. What a joy to hear more about her career and all she's doing now. If you enjoy the podcast, there are over 160 episodes featuring conversations with trailblazers in women's sport and they're all free to listen to on podcast platforms or at the Fearless Women website, fearlesswomencouk. Previous guests include elite sportswomen, broadcasters, coaches, administrators, scientists and CEOs from a vast range of sports. The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast.
Sue Anstiss:Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you once again to Sport England for backing the game changes through a National Lottery Award, and also thanks to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such a fantastic job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. Do follow us to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes and if you have a moment to leave us a lovely five-star review or rating, that would be fantastic, as it really does help us to reach new audiences. Come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on LinkedIn, twitter and Instagram at Sue Anstis the Game Changers Fearless women in sport.
