The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
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You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Claire Taggart: The impact of Boccia – a totally inclusive sport
As we look forward to the Paralympics at Paris 2024, we're sharing this previous episode with Paralympian Claire Taggart, which was first released on February 13, 2024.
Discover the intriguing world of Boccia with world champion and Paralympian Claire Taggart on this episode of Game Changers. Claire shares her journey from skepticism to passion for this highly inclusive Paralympic sport, offering insights into its unique rules, classifications, and accessibility features. Whether you’re familiar with similar games like bowls and petanque or completely new to boccia, Claire’s firsthand experience and enthusiasm bring the sport to life, highlighting its potential for anyone to participate, regardless of physical abilities.
Claire also opens up about the challenges of raising awareness for boccia, a sport that often flies under the radar despite its competitive and strategic allure. She talks about her initial reluctance, the encouragement from her coach, and her efforts to boost boccia’s profile through social media. The conversation delves into the emotional journey of competing at an elite level while grappling with the limited recognition and visibility for boccia athletes, stressing the importance of acknowledgment and support within the Paralympic community.
Family support emerges as a critical theme, with Claire reflecting on the sacrifices her parents have made to help her compete globally. She discusses the financial and social care hurdles faced by elite athletes with disabilities, and the recent changes in gender classification within boccia. As Claire contemplates her future, including her post-Paris 2024 plans and aspirations beyond sport, she emphasizes boccia’s transformative impact and encourages more women to get involved. Tune in for an inspiring episode that highlights the power of determination, family support, and the quest for greater visibility in Paralympic sports.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstis, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast through a national lottery award.
Speaker 1:My guest today is Claire Taggart, who's had a remarkable journey and is having a huge impact in the world of boccia, where she's represented Paralympics GB in Rio and Tokyo. Claire became Northern Ireland's first ever boccia world champion in 2022 and is currently number one in the world as we head into the Paris 2024 Paralympics. In addition to all this, claire runs her own business and is helping to break down barriers in football as a disability officer for Larn FC in Northern Ireland. Claire, there's so much I want to ask you, but can we start by talking about boccia itself, and I wonder can you explain more about the sport to listeners who might not be as familiar with it?
Speaker 2:about the sport to listeners who might not be as familiar with it. I like to describe boccia as the most intricate sport that nobody's ever heard of and basically the concept is quite simple. So you can play as an individual, a team and as a pair. The concept of boccia is there's a white jack ball and the aim of the game is to get closer than your opponent to the white jack ball. The balls are soft, they're made of leather and filled with beads. The court itself that we play on it's indoors, it's the same size as badminton court, so 12.5 metres by 6 metres, 12.5 meters by six meters, and basically it is the most. I like to say it's the most inclusive Paralympic sport because regardless of the severity of your disability, you can play boccia.
Speaker 1:I've listened to you, I've been researching, listening. I know you don't like to liken it to bowls in terms of people having an understanding, and I was thinking it's almost a bit like that French ball with hacky sack type balls rather than solid balls combined with a bit of chess it's. Does that feel a bit fair? It's a bit of all those things, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I don't like to compare it to balls because, um, in balls there are alternate throws, so your opponent takes a turn, you take a turn, whereas in boccia it basically you play. If you're closer than your opponent, your opponent will play. If you are further away from the jack to your opponent, then you will play. It's a different dynamic because you could play out all six of your balls and your opponent still has the opportunity to score three or four points, which is different to bowls. And also the equipment is very different in the in that it's, um, we have soft leather balls. So, yeah, I don't like liking in it to bowls and like, I think it is similar in construct to, like, uh, petanque or bocce, but boccia is so different generally I just think it deserves its own like it's boccia that's what it is.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I would recommend people find you on Instagram and I love the videos that you share, with some of the tricks and that you know. But just get more of a feel for it and obviously kind of people watch it, don't they? Through the Paralympics, but to find out more away from that too. And it's obviously as you said, it's a Paralympic sport but doesn't have an Olympic equivalent. But what is it that you love so much? I mean, does it already sound? You know your kind of passion for the sport?
Speaker 2:I think the thing that I love about bocce you're right, it doesn't have an Olympic equivalent and I think that's a good and a bad thing.
Speaker 2:I think sports that have an Olympic equivalent they get a lot more recognition because obviously there is a lot more media interest towards the Olympics, comparedics, compared to the paralympics.
Speaker 2:But I think, in our own right, not having that olympic equivalent makes us really unique and a really unique opportunity to show disabled people like their ability and rather than their disability and I'm not trying to be inspirational or anything like that, because I I really hate the word inspiration and a lot of us really struggle with that power play with the word inspiration. But yeah, I think that the thing that I love about boccia most is the fact it is so inclusive, regardless of the severity of your impairment, whether you can throw a ball, kick a ball or you can't, and you use a ramp, you have a ramp operator who's completely under your instruction. There's no other sport that people like me could play. I couldn't swim, I can't run, I can't stand to, never mind run so there is no other sport that people like me could play and I think it's it's important that we are encapsulated in the Paralympic movement.
Speaker 1:And, as you say, it's pretty special sport because it's played by individuals with severe disabilities. I think that you know, you say that and, in terms of how the sport accommodates that, you've mentioned that there's different routes in terms of the classifications. Can you explain that briefly to us because I know sometimes that can be overwhelming for people just in terms of getting their heads around the classifications.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so in boccia it's pretty simple. So there are four classifications. Bc1s and 2s are similar, so I myself am a BC2. Bc2s throw the ball. We do not have an assistant to help us prepare the ball or anything like that. We're pretty much independent once we're on the court and playing the sport.
Speaker 2:Bc1s are similar in nature to BC2s, but they have an assistant to help them prepare the ball, maybe steady a wheelchair. They can either throw or kick the ball, which is a bit different but incredibly skillful. Bc4s are also throwers, but they are people with a non-cerebral origin, so things like arthrogryposis, muscular dystrophy, tar syndrome and potentially like multiple amputations. And BC3s are athletes who would be unable to throw, kick or roll a ball, athletes who would be unable to throw, kick or roll the ball. And they play with a ramp and they have a ramp operator who faces them, is never allowed to turn around to the court, can't see what's going on, and basically the ramp operator is completely under the instruction of the athlete and the bc3 athlete tells them what to do, where to place the ball on the ramp, where to move it, which ball to play, and, yeah, they're not allowed to talk as well.
Speaker 2:So that's a challenge and also I forgot I should say BC1s, 2s and 3s can have disabilities like cerebral palsy. So my condition is dystonia. My dystonia presents in a very similar way to cerebral palsy. Dystonia my dystonia presents in a very similar way to cerebral palsy. Bc3 athletes can also have things like muscular dystrophy and spinal cord injury, but the bc1 and 2 classifications are predominantly made up of people who have cerebral palsy and or things that present in a similar way to cerebral palsy and you weren't born with your disability.
Speaker 1:So can you tell us a little bit about that and your kind of diagnosis with dystonia?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I wasn't born with my disability. You're right, I developed my disability in my late teens so 16, 17, 18 and it basically started with me stumbling and falling my feet, starting to turn in and walking more on my tiptoes and I did walk on my tiptoes as a child, but we always put that down to my Irish dancing failed Irish dancing career. Obviously I'm from Northern Ireland, so that's quite big over here. I was also quite uncoordinated as a child anyway and always was injured or had an arm in a cast or anything like that. Obviously, when I was 16 17, it kind of progressed to a point where I had an injury to one leg and then was in a cast in that leg. I had torn my Achilles and then I fell again and injured the other leg and it was at this point that my consultant at the time said actually we need to look a little bit further into this and referred me to neurology. There's definitely a neurological element going on here. But obviously, as we know, with NHS waiting times and tests and stuff like that, it took me three years to get my diagnosis, so I was diagnosed. It took me three years to get my diagnosis, so I was diagnosed. I started exhibiting severe I wouldn't say severe symptoms, but more serious symptoms from 16 to 18 and was diagnosed at 19.
Speaker 2:So my condition is dystonia. Most people will never have heard of it. It presents in different ways in different people. So for me it presents in severe muscle contraction. Basically, I look the same sitting down as I do lying down, so I can't stand. My knees don't bend beyond 90 degrees, my elbows don't bend beyond pretty much not far away from 90 degrees and I have severe contractions from top to toe. And by the time we finish this podcast podcast I will have a slurry voice because I'll be tired and obviously the voice is a muscle as well. So for me, dystonia causes muscle contraction and spasm and tightness. But it can present in a lot of other ways and it can present in tremors and things like that. But I'm lucky and I like to say that I'm lucky in that my condition has been stable for nearly five years now and I definitely put that down to botch the amount I move, the amount I'm doing, things like that. But yeah, it's not a common disability, but yeah it's something different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not a common disability, but yeah, it's something different and like. So I hadn't heard about it until we we spoke. How common is it in the general population anyway?
Speaker 2:honestly, I have no idea because, like, whenever I got my diagnosis, my mum hugged my neurologist because she was like we've been battling with this for three years. Nobody's's telling us anything. People are telling Clare, it's in her head, but now you've given us the validation and like that there is actually an issue here. So I think that for me, the story of getting my diagnosis and, like a lot of people will say, oh, you're diagnosed with a lifelong physical disability how does that make you feel?
Speaker 2:Once I got that diagnosis, the world kind of opened up to me, so like in terms of, like referrals to different pathways and things like that wheelchair services, speech and language all of those things kind of opened up where they weren't there before, because I was undiagnosed and I kind of got the support I needed regarding, like, social care and stuff like that at that time. But before that, when you're kind of undiagnosed, you're in this kind of limbo with the benefit system and things like that, because you don't have proof of disability and stuff like that, you don't have that name. And that was the hardest bit for us as a family. Like we all felt massive relief when I did get that diagnosis because things just opened up.
Speaker 1:And how have you as a young woman dealt with those impacts? And obviously you say there's a positive side of that diagnosis. But how have you dealt with that from a mental health perspective as a young woman? You know I've got three kind of teenagers into that age group of young women in my family how have you kind of cope with that and dealt with that over the years? You're 28 now since the last decade or so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm old. Yeah, I won't say it's been easy, I won't brush over that fact, but at this point it's not really something I'm comfortable talking about and like I'm happy for you to include that on the podcast because I think that, like talking about things like that is a choice, um, and I think that for me, the reason that I got through it all was the support of my parents. My parents were, like have been like the pivotal support. I wouldn't be here without them because they're just, they're just incredible people. A lot of the things that you'll find out about me is like I kind of come up with an idea. My parents kind of pushed me into it to like develop that idea. Obviously, with botcha, that was the same thing. With my business, it was the same thing. Um, so, yeah, I, I would credit my parents for everything. All of my success, I would credit my parents and I'm really lucky to have them oh, that's kind of lovely to hear too.
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask you a bit more about your, your dad, um, as we move through. But just going back to how you first discovered Botcher and then your kind of progress from taking part in the first place, then quite rapidly into the GB squad and on the world class program, so can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2:So I, whenever I got my diagnosis, I had started playing a little bit of wheelchair basketball, but I was terrible at it. My hands had started to develop contractures at that stage and it wasn't really safe for me to play because obviously wheelchair basketball is a high, fast, rapid sport and it just wasn't working for me. So I think I maybe played for maybe three weeks max. But I was recommended to start wheelchair rugby, which is even more brutal, I would like to say, but is for people who would be unable to play wheelchair basketball. But wheelchair rugby typically features people with high level spinal cord injuries, so limited hand function, things like that. So I played for nearly six months before again my disability progressed to the stage where I couldn't play and at the end I was literally pushing in circles because I could only reach with one hand to go in one direction. But playing wheelchair rugby at that time was amazing. Like if I could, I'd go back to it today. It's an amazing sport. It's high throttle, high energy and it's a really good way of keeping fit.
Speaker 2:Boccia kind of came along where one of the coaches of the wheelchair rugby was like have you thought about this other sport? Boccia and I was like I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never heard of that word, so you can tell I'm quite blunt and to the point. Um, so he said look, there's a local club being set up, why don't you go along see what you think? And I did not like it. I did not like it at all. It was. It was a local club being set up in my community and it was a grassroots led thing of like let's just come along and throw some bocce balls and stuff like that. And I enjoyed the social aspect of it because there were a lot of other young people who had physical disabilities there. But I was so confused as to how was this a Paralympic sport? But it was only when that coach who recommended that I go, registered me for the UK championships, because obviously Northern Ireland was a very small developing nation in Botcha.
Speaker 2:So we we went to our first UK championships in 2014 and I didn't even want to go, but he'd booked the flights and things like that. So I kind of felt I was going out of obligation. But when I was there, I was pleasantly surprised that boccia was more than I thought it was going to be. The competitive side of me came out, like you say. Boccia is very chess-like in terms of tactics and decisions. I'm a massive board game nerd gaming nerd, so these things all appeal to me gaming nerd. So, like, these things all appeal to me. And yeah, it's. It's a sport where I didn't like it at first, but now it's my entire life and I don't know where I would be or what I would be without it why do you think you've had such success in the sport?
Speaker 2:oh, that's a good question and like one I struggle with daily, I would say, because for two reasons success, like for me as a person. I'm a really pessimistic person, like a massively pessimist, and that has always been a challenge in elite sport, I guess, was what I would say. And when I see success, I see that for me, I've played well, I've got through a game, things like that. I really struggle with the idea of being successful in this sport because there's limited to no recognition and that's not what sport is about. Sport is about enjoying sport. But when you are achieving the things that myself and our squad have done over the years but no one is listening or the people high enough aren't listening, then it's really challenging and frustrating. I have a difficult time with the word success is what I would say. That that doesn't really answer your question, but it kind of gives you an insight to how I see things in the world yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:and when you were just 21, when you were competed at your first Paralympics, I think in Rio in 2016 and, yeah, the first person from Northern Ireland to ever compete in a Paralympic boccia event in 2022, you became Northern Ireland's first boccia world champion in the B2 class. So that's a whole roster of firsts. So how does that side feel for you? That must be exciting and in terms of representing your country on an international stage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, overwhelming is what I would say. I think when you get to the stage of representing your country and things like that, it's huge and nobody really tells you of all the things that will come along with that. But I think that, like I've said, with boccia being a small unknown I would say relatively unknown sport, not much of that stuff kind of comes. So, me being quite introverted as a person, that kind of suited me for maybe eight to ten or eight years of my career, I would say. But since I've started to like win things and be a little bit more successful, it's kind of frustrated me. It's frustrated me that, like myself and my teammates were doing these amazing things, we're achieving the same accolades as olympic sports and other paralympic sports, but we're not getting any recognition or notice or media attention that it.
Speaker 2:It kind of spurred me recently to start sharing a little bit more of my life online and sharing a little bit more of the behind the scenes of an elite athlete with high support needs, because that's what the IPC terminology is, that we are athletes with high support needs, and I think that that does describe us quite well, but it also doesn't. It doesn't describe our ability to be independent within our sport and our lives. I guess, yeah, I've kind of started to share a little bit more online and I'll admit it's been a bit of a challenge. Not necessarily the filming and stuff like that I don't mind the filming and the editing that I'm doing but the realism of I'm sharing more of my life. People are starting to see it. Things like that is a bit scary and not something I'm entirely comfortable with, but for me, if it gets my sport and my teammates and I the recognition that we deserve, I guess, then it's kind of worth it just to be outside of my comfort zone for that tiny moment.
Speaker 1:And you clearly are hugely passionate about raising the profile of Butcher, and I love that you responded to one of my posts on LinkedIn when I was asking for recommendations of potential new guests for the podcast, because you're so keen to spread the word for the sport and actually, if you hadn't done that, we wouldn't be having this conversation and others that we've had, and I wouldn't have dug into the world of boccia too. So, in one small example, it's clearly having a big impact there, isn't it? And it's fantastic that you, as the world champion, is doing this and and as you say, slightly uncomfortably but happily putting yourself out there to let people know about the sport. But what else do you think needs to change around the sport? Is there more in terms of the sport of boccia, the ipc, paralympics, gb? Is there more organizations can be doing to raise profile for the sport?
Speaker 2:I honestly think that a lot of it comes from, like, the media. I think that the, the external media, are interested in the same faces that we see every year every time Paralympics comes around and Paralympics GB this time are like doing an amazing thing where they're picking different people um to to showcase and use for media stories and things like that, and I'm really grateful to be a part of that. So, yeah, I think that within our sport, within botcha, we have an amazing pr, lady, jane, um Jane, who works her hardest to try and get our profiles and our sport out there. But if the people who are supposed to be receiving that aren't listening or hearing or seeing, then it's difficult and I think that for me, unless you're seeing people like me or my teammates in mainstream media, then you won't know what you could achieve if you have a severe physical disability.
Speaker 2:Because I'll give you an example like whenever I did get my diagnosis and one of the first social workers I encountered, she asked me to like, think about day center instead of like, getting a job or anything like that. I went to school, I've done my A-levels, I'm currently doing a degree in forensic psychology and for someone to not even ask me what I wanted but like to consider. Did I want to go to a day center for adults with a disability? And I get that that's what some people want or need to be supported, but for me that was never on my agenda and it was certainly not on my parents agenda. They were going to try and make me as independent as possible so that I could live whatever fulfilled life I wanted to live. And yeah, she didn't stay around for very long is all I'll say about that social worker.
Speaker 1:But you mentioned your parents there and clearly they have been this extraordinary support across your career, your sporting career as well as you know your day-to-day life. It must be. You know your dad travels with you as a support staff and carer too, so how's that experience been sharing this experience of competing and and traveling globally with him too?
Speaker 2:it's amazing 99 of the time. But obviously we're dad and daughter, so we agree and disagree and he likes to remember that he's the dad and I'm the daughter, so it can be a bit frustrating, but I think that my dad and I have worked out a way of communicating and working together now that whenever we're away, he's 90% my sports assistant and 10% my dad. Like he'll still call me out for swearing and things like that the things that mums and dads do. But he also realizes I'm 28, I've got to make my own choices in life and things like that. But yeah, it's, it's a challenge, is what I'd say. But, like over the last couple of years, we've really started to I wouldn't say consciously work in our relationship, but he knows when he needs to step back, when he needs to say something now, and we won't always get it right the pair of us won't always get it right but I think that we have a much better relationship because of Watcha, in terms of the amount of time we do spend together and like it would be remiss of me not to mention my mum as well.
Speaker 2:So my mum is my chief supporter from home. My mum is an incredible woman and she also enables me to travel because I have a dog, so she babysits my dog, rio, when we're away. But I also have a menagerie of tortoises. I have six pet tortoises, so they live at my parents' house and I wouldn't be able to travel without having my mum at home who looks after my dog, my tortoises, and she's also, like I say, my chief supporter. So I have a friends and family. Whenever I'm competing, friends and family whatsapp group and she and my boyfriend, scott, update that end by end, ball by ball, so that people within my, like, local community and friends and family can see how I'm doing and things like that and that. That. That, I think, really gives her purpose, um, within um, being part of my support team but also being my mum. So, yeah, uh, I'm really grateful and I'm delighted to like, if I get to selected for Paris um, that my mum will come out and watch.
Speaker 1:Who's looking after the tortoises then?
Speaker 2:I haven't got that far yet. There's an opening. I put my hand up. Yeah, there's an opening if people would like to babysit six tortoises.
Speaker 1:And they sound extraordinary people. But how would you have got on, would you have been able to compete at the level you have and for the time you have, if you hadn't had that support from your parents?
Speaker 2:no. So, to put it bluntly, if my parents were to fall ill or weren't to be here, I wouldn't be able to do boccia, and that is because of where I'm at with social care funding and the time that I spend away. Obviously, I live in Northern Ireland and a lot of our training, like team camps and things like that, is in mainland UK. This year, I will probably be more in the UK than I will be in Northern Ireland or in other random countries all over the world and competing using training opportunities that I've been given. So I think that it's important for me to say like I genuinely couldn't do this without my parents and I'm able to pay them a small amount, but it definitely doesn't cover what they actually do for me, because when we're away, I'm completely out of my comfort zone, I'm out of my house, where I'm as independent as I can be, and I need a lot more help with things because the world is not accessible. So, yeah, I I'm in a position now where, obviously, paris is this year um, in August, september and then we quickly move into the LA cycle straight after that.
Speaker 2:It's a four-year cycle. It's a long time, and my dad had always said look if you want to get to Paris, that's fine, we'll do Paris, but then I'd like to retire. So obviously, my dad retired so that I could do this job. He retired from his actual job so that I could do this job. He retired from his actual job and so that I could do my job.
Speaker 2:And the position I'm in at this point is that if my dad steps away which he's fully entitled to do and I actually really want him to do, because he hasn't had a retirement, he's just run around the world after me I don't think I would be able to do botcha based on social care funding and where I'm at with that. And it's a sad and like it's not shameful, but it's a sad thing to think that my career is I have to think about my parents but it might also be dependent on something that I genuinely can't control, of social care funding, things like that an external factor, and every sports person would like to end their career on like their own terms and things like that. But I think for me, if I decide I don't want to play boccia anymore and it's because I don't want to play boccia anymore, that's fine. But if I'm in a position where I want to play boccia but I can't because of external factors like social care funding, then I think that would be a real shame.
Speaker 1:And is that more of an issue because you're in Northern Ireland, and the issues around the government in Northern Ireland and funding.
Speaker 2:Yes, I would say so, but at this point it's an ongoing frustrating issue in Northern Ireland, is all I will say. I think being in Northern Ireland does compound that, and I've only recently started talking about my not issues with social care funding, but raising awareness that it isn't enough for me to do my job and or anybody to, to exist, um, and I think it's a person, it's a not necessarily a personality, but it's a story that a lot of people aren't hearing. It's not heard within the elite sport world, because few athletes need support with personal care and things like that, but typically boccia athletes, we are the ones who need the highest level of support, um, and I guess it's really important to hear that story and that viewpoint.
Speaker 1:but, yeah, uh, it's, it's where it is and do you have any sponsors at all? As a paralympic athlete, as world champion, I'm shaking my head.
Speaker 2:But no, um, I have some supporters who have given me some things in kind, so, um, earplugs and things like that to play in. I have a guy who's recently developed my own website and I'm really proud of it. Um, the work that we've put into my website, um, but yeah, it's, it's. It's frustrating being world champion, being world number one. I still find difficult to say because, like I said, I'm a massive pessimist. But when you achieve those things, you expect that people will notice or care or anything like that. But it's, it's a challenge to find people who actually want to listen or can see past the level of physical disability to think, actually, you're doing this, I'm training, I'm working as hard as other Olympic and Paralympic athletes, but just not getting any recognition or mention and things like that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, sponsorship has always, like within botcha, has notoriously been very difficult and I don't think there's any of our athletes at this point and who have a sponsor and that's that's obviously challenging. And obviously we, like I said, we travel the world and compete in winning medals. We're very consistent within GB winning medals and things like that across the world world cups, world challengers but we also have enormous costs, which we're very grateful to the national lot right and UK sport to be able to, to enable us to travel and compete and things like that. But we as athletes, each of us will have a personal assistant with us. Obviously, mine's my dad, so the cost for us to travel and compete is insane, but we just don't get, I would say, the external support that other sports perhaps do, and I think that's partly because we're so small and unknown. But yeah, I'm kind of trying to raise awareness of our sport in the hope that we might get some external sponsorship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Especially as we move into you said, paris later this summer. So how are you feeling? Because obviously you're going in now and you've already said in terms of not necessarily having that kind of confidence ahead of big events and so on, but you're going into Paris. You're world number one. You have been throughout the whole of 2023. So how do you feel? Is that very different to going into the Games at Rio or Tokyo?
Speaker 2:Yes, very different. So previously, up until Tokyo, in Tokyo, boccia was a mixed sport, so men and women played together and for the first time, this whole cycle has been men and women split, so it's been gender classification, and I think it's been amazing for the sport. You're really starting to see those female personalities, characters coming out that you see in the male classifications but weren't ever able to compete against the males in our sport, and I think that it has done wonders, for I guess bringing more females into the sport but there's never enough botch athletes is what I would say. There's never enough, we need more. And I guess that unless you know about the sport and how to get into the sport, then how are you ever going to aim to achieve, to get on those podiums, to go to a Paralympic Games? But back to your question. Yes, paris being the first time of a Paralympics where it's male and female split, I'll be honest, it's terrifying. It's exciting but terrifying, and it's something that I guess I'm working on with my coach and our psychologist because it is a completely different thing.
Speaker 2:When I went into Tokyo, I was ranked 10th in the world and there is an undoubted pressure with being world number one and obviously for the rest of this year I'd like to try and stay there being world number one and obviously for the rest of this year I'd like to try and stay there as world number one. We have a lot of events before the Paralympics and, yeah, it does. It does add an internal and an external pressure, because I guess people are starting to ask you questions like that. So I think it's an important one to talk about with the pressure of the Paralympics, because obviously Paralympics only comes around once every four years and if you mess it up, you've got a decision to make if you want to do another four-year cycle and it's a long four years. But yeah, I think it's a challenge. In my head is what I would say the gender piece is really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1:So when you went into Tokyo and you were number 10, how many women were ahead of you in the other nine, as it were? One.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, one, and then eight males. And I think for me, the point where I realised that we needed to go down the gender split was when we were in Japan and Tokyo and it got to the quarterfinal stages in all four classifications and not one woman was in any of the quarterfinals. And I thought, right, this is, this is the time, and I was glad that they brought it in at that point. There are plenty of women who were doing really well in the pool stages and things like that, and as team and pairs, there has always been women on the podium.
Speaker 2:But I think that as an individual, there is something, I would say, somewhat more satisfying, because you're only accountable to yourself when you're playing as an individual, and I think that the gender split has come at the right time. It's been like it's been full of controversy, but I think it has come at the right time. Obviously, I've benefited from it massively and I know that other women within our sport across the world are reaping the benefits of being able to, I guess, showcase our skills and our ability beyond what we were competing with before the gender split. So I think it's been a good thing.
Speaker 1:So why would it be, then, that it was all men from the quarterfinal on? Why would men have been better at Butcher than women?
Speaker 2:Honestly I don't really know.
Speaker 2:There's obviously a strength difference and things like that, but, like a lot of it is unexplained, particularly in the BC3 classification, where it's less about your physical ability but your ability to make tactical decisions and just general decision making.
Speaker 2:So I don't really know the ins and outs of it for myself, but I think that the change has come in and I've really welcomed it and I know a lot of the other female athletes now really feel seen and that we belong on the boccia stage and things like that, and we weren't just making up a number, because previously in teaming pairs, for example, if you had a full squad of 10 across all four classifications going to like a Paralympic Games or even a major event, previously you would have needed to have one female per classification and that female might not even have played like they would have played maybe one end, so three balls out of maybe 24 before they were subbed off for the male counterpart.
Speaker 2:So for me I think it's really important that now, for example, the team there always has to be a girl on. There's no substitutes anymore, and I think that's been a really beneficial thing. There's no substitutes in the pairs and BC3 pairs and BC4 pairs. It's a mixed pair from the start, now again no substitutes, and the female classification in individuals has kind of come along at a time where we are seeing those new and exciting people come through, and I think it's been a brilliant addition to Boccia.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant. I look forward to watching it in more detail in Paris this year and obviously wish you well. Once you know in terms of qualification Is that in the next couple of months or so, you'll know for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll know for sure, and selection will be later this year and you're mentioning about seeing it in Paris. We'll see how much coverage we get. I think there's usually a live stream, but again, it's only of one court. Normally there's maybe eight courts playing at the same time and it's a potluck. Whether you're on that live stream court. I don't think you'd see that in any other Paralympic sport, or very few other Paralympic sports.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it is what it is Interesting To make some more noise for you, aren't we? Thank you. And just moving away from this war a little bit, you also run a business nifty notebooks.
Speaker 2:I'm a massive stationary fan myself, so I noticed an order come in from you for me it's not.
Speaker 1:It's not going to order, um, but I understand your passion, but has that been important to you? I mean because you're doing so much stuff like you're doing, that you're studying, you work at law and fc as well, but has that been important to you? I mean because you're doing so much stuff like you're doing, that you're studying, you work at law and fc as well, but has it been important for you to have things away from, uh, the kind of botch side of your life too?
Speaker 2:yeah, like creative side of me is like massive um, I have always been interested in drawing, reading, um, coloring things like that. And it was my parents I got my first. I got my first iPad and pencil. I think it was like 2018 and I was just drawing um at things and like it's been a life changer, and my parents were again like I said, quite not I wouldn't say forceful, but uh, encouraging, uh, like you're drawing so much and it looks so good, so why don't you do something with it? So they funded my first set of notebooks, which were pretty per compared to what I'm producing now is what I would say and basically, from there I set up my own business.
Speaker 2:So my business Nifty Notebooks, northern Ireland and I've recently hit, I think, 2,500 sales on Etsy. So, yeah, it's, it's a challenge. And, like trying to run a business whilst traveling with Botcha is is another challenge, because obviously my shop is more closed than it is open because of the amount of time I travel, and I think that it is a good, I guess, side hustle because it's something I can do when I'm away but I can't pack orders from random countries all over the world. So, yeah, it's something I really enjoy, and I really enjoy that creative side of my life. So yeah, Excellent.
Speaker 1:I look forward to receiving my order. It's fantastic. I'll put a link in the show notes as well to the website too, and then you also work as disability access officer at Larn football club, so what does that role entail?
Speaker 2:so my role and job at Larn football club is basically improving and promoting accessibility and inclusivity at the football club, and that might be from infrastructure to the way that we do things with technology and generally just being more of an approach where accessibility is at the forefront of everything we that we do. I'm really proud to be a part of the Larn FC team and I was brought on in 2018 as a voluntary role and I think for me, when they approached me and said, look, we, we would like you to come on board, I said immediately is this going to be a tick box exercise? If it is, I'm not interested. If you're actually going to listen to what I have to say and make improvements, then I'm interested. And they said, no, absolutely, we're interested in what you have to say.
Speaker 2:We want to make the place as accessible and inclusive for disabled people and also people who are neurodiverse. That's something that we're kind of exploring at the minute how we can make both of our online content and also like infrastructure and match day experience as accessible and an opportunity for people with who are neurodiverse to come to enjoy football, because everybody enjoys football, even me slightly. I don't really understand, but I think that's the important part of why they brought me on board is that they weren't interested in the fact that I didn't have a knowledge of football or wasn't really interested in the knowledge of football, but they wanted my lived experience of being a disabled person in the community to improve their accessibility and inclusivity. So yeah, but I do watch the football now.
Speaker 1:And just in closing, really, you've talked about your potential LA 2028 beyond Paris, but what needs to change in order for you to continue on competing? I realise, in terms of that care and support, do you think there is potential for you to continue on afterwards?
Speaker 2:well, firstly, I have to want to do it, and I think that that's a lot of athletes um and this sort of question is going to come up more and more, and probably during Paris as well. My teammate, david Smith, is asked it every time he goes to games and I think for me it's I have to want it and I don't like. At this stage I don't know. We're in a Paralympic year, it's a year of big pressure and I'd like to take some time after the Paralympics to work out. Do I actually want to do another cycle?
Speaker 2:But if I do, I have to think okay, how can I do that with the current setup that I have with care funding and things like that? Ideally, I would be in a position where I would be able to have a full-time support worker, personal assistant, who was able to travel with me so that my dad and my parents could actually enjoy their retirement together, rather than dad flying here, there and everywhere with me. But those are the questions I guess I have to ask when I come back from Paris. But as it stands at the minute, fingers crossed my parents stay healthy and well and able to run around the world after me. But yeah, those are kind of the questions that I guess I have to ask and also I guess it would be remiss of me not to mention my boyfriend also lives in Scotland, so we'd like to try and live together at some point and obviously that is a challenge being two disabled people trying to live together with both with severe physical impairments.
Speaker 1:But yeah, we'll get there, I guess severe physical impairment, but yeah, we'll get there. I guess it's almost like a ridiculous question that I ask what do you want to do beyond Paris? And I know when I've like, when the documentary came out or I did my book, and people like, oh, what's next on the agenda? It's like, well, let me just enjoy what's happening now and and be this year is about this thing that I'm working on, and why do I need to be thinking about the next thing? So I am even, as I asked, that I thought actually we should be just focusing on.
Speaker 2:Paris, really? Rather than I think it's an important question to ask, because some people will have an agenda, they will have what they want to do. Like some people will say, okay, I'm going to retire after this one and I'm going to set up a business or I'm going to have a family and things like that. But I think it's difficult when you don't have an idea of what you want to do, I guess. But I think that that's kind of a refreshing take on it as well. So just finally in closing.
Speaker 1:You've talked, you know, very passionately about raising profile for boccia and encouraging other people to play the sport. So what would you say today to individuals that were considering getting involved?
Speaker 2:Do it? Just find a way of looking it up online, get in touch with people like me. I'm more than happy to respond to things, and I think that the sport has changed my life in more ways than possible. So the potential of Watcha is massive and I would love to see more females getting into the sport, enjoying the sport that I love, and whether that be that you aim to go and compete in a Paralympic Games or you aim to compete for your club or your country, things like that, I think it's really important that you just kind of find a way to start, and I'm more than happy to reach out to people and things like that and answer questions and that. So, yeah, get involved.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much to Claire. Do follow her on Instagram to find out more about the sport of boccia and to follow her progress through to Paris this summer. If you enjoyed the podcast, there are over 160 episodes featuring conversations with other women's sports trailblazers and they're all free to listen to on podcast platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. Previous remarkable para-athletes I've spoken to include ellie simmons, hannah cockcroft, tanny gray thompson, lauren steadman and we're full of strike sophie caragal and sarah story. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the women's sport collective a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport.
Speaker 1:The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you once again to Sport England for backing the game changes through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such a brilliant job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. Do follow the podcast to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes and, if you have a moment, to leave a rating or a review. It would be fantastic, as it really does help us to reach new audiences. Do come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on linkedin, instagram and twitter at sue anstis the Fearless women in sport.
