The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Hannah Cockcroft: Maintaining motivation throughout your sporting career
As we look forward to the Paralympics at Paris 2024, we're sharing this previous episode with Paralympian Hannah Cockcroft, which was first released on November 1, 2022.
Hannah Cockcroft is one of Britain’s most successful para-athletes who burst onto the world stage in 2010, breaking 9 wheelchair sprinting world records. She went on to win two golds at the London Paralympic games, with three more at the 2016 games in Rio and two in Tokyo 2021.
In the summer of 2022, Hannah won gold in the T33/34 100m at the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham, setting a new Games record and completing the set – with Gold medals at Every. Major. Athletics. Championships.
It’s no wonder that Hannah was awarded an MBE in 2013 for her services to athletics which was followed by an OBE in last year New Year’s Honours. Hannah talks candidly about the loneliness she experienced as a disabled child with no visible role models and how that's now changing, how it felt to discover wheelchair racing, the challenges of classification in para sport and how it felt be beaten for the first time in 7 years. It's a fascinating conversation with a true trailblazer in women's sport.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to Tthe Game Changers podcast, where you'll hear from trailblazing women across sport who do so much to drive change and challenge the status quo for women and girls everywhere. I'm Sue Anstis and I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, sport England, who support the game changers through a national lottery award. My guest today is one of Britain's most successful para-athletes.
Sue Anstiss:Hannah Cockcroft burst onto the world stage in 2010, breaking wheelchair sprinting world records. She went on to win two golds at the London Paralympic Games, with three more at the London Paralympic Games, with three more at the 2016 Games in Rio and two in Tokyo last year. This summer, hannah won gold in the T33-34 100m at the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham, setting a new games record and completing the set with gold medals at every major athletics championships. It's no wonder that Hannah was awarded an MBE in 2013 for her services to athletics, which was followed by an OBE in last year's New Year's Honours. Hannah, that Commonwealth gold medal really was the elusive one, wasn't it? You had a long time to complete the collection, and doing it at home in the the UK too. I was wondering how you felt going into the games you know what I?
Hannah Cockcroft:I actually felt quite a lot of pressure going into that games. I think it was it was more pressure in my own head because I knew it was that elusive medal. I knew that probably be my only Commonwealth game, so it was my only chance to get that Commonwealth gold. And it was a home crowd. So, you know, following on from Tokyo having no crowds, I really wanted to put on a good show and I think, yeah, I definitely put that pressure on myself. So I was, uh, having all the panics before the race, thinking I'm not ready, I'm not gonna do this, but thankfully it all went right on the night and how did it feel?
Sue Anstiss:can you take us back to how that felt, as you, as you, oh you know what?
Hannah Cockcroft:It's a bit of a rubbish answer, but it's just relief. I just feel relief when I get out there and I think when you start your career, it's all excitement. You think, oh, I've done it, like amazing. Now it is literally like, oh phew, like another one, I've managed to tick it off the list. 've managed to do it because you know what? The competition is getting so much harder, it's getting so much stronger. Every race is different and obviously, since London 2012, my events have changed. So, london 2012, I raced the 100 meters and the 200 meters and now, at Paralympic level, I race the 100 and the 800, which are two very, very different events. Like, you wouldn't ask Usain Bolt to do those two events, but for some reason I think I can do it.
Sue Anstiss:So, yeah, it's getting harder every Games and I do just line up on the line and think I hope I can still do this, and you mentioned longer distances there, but you recently took part in the Great North Run wheelchair race too, so how was that for an athlete? You know that jump from 800 even to a half marathon.
Hannah Cockcroft:It was a terrible idea and I wish I never. No, you know what. It was really nice to get involved. It normally doesn't fit very well into my season but with the Commonwealth Games finishing so early, I had like a month to to learn how to do a half marathon, so it was even harder. This year was the worst year to do it because I haven't even been doing 800 meter training.
Hannah Cockcroft:I've literally just been focusing on the 100 meters for the Commonwealth Games and I actually, during the race, got to about 10 miles and I felt okay. My speedo broke at seven miles. I got to 10 and I was like I feel I feel all right, I think I can finish this. And I got to about 10 and a like I feel I feel all right, I think I can finish this. And I got to about 10 and a half and I genuinely just wanted to cry Like that half a mile made all the difference. And then it was just pain for the last three miles and I think it made it harder because, melanie Woods, I was pushing with Mel. We were actually really close in our times and we were just pushing each other the whole way. So don't think I was expecting a full-out race, um, but I got one for a full 13 miles that I definitely didn't sign up for.
Sue Anstiss:I might know the answer to this question before I ask it, but a marathon is something you might do more of in the future. Do you feel no? Short and sweet.
Hannah Cockcroft:I would. I would like to do a marathon one day just to say that I've done it and I've ticked that box. Um, but definitely not now. I don't think it would. It'd be so counter-contuitive to my actual events and, oh man, it'd hurt so much yeah, why do it?
Sue Anstiss:if I can take you back to your childhood, dance was your first love, really before sport, so can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Hannah Cockcroft:yeah. So at three years old I decided that I wanted to be prima ballerina. That was like my big dream. I was a very girly girl. I loved pink and tutus and anything like that. So, yeah, I wanted to be a dancer, which is a really unrealistic aim for a girl that at that point couldn't even stand up unaided, like I had everything strapped to my legs.
Hannah Cockcroft:But you know what my mum and dad are? Just, they're fantastic people and they never saw a barrier in my life. They were always like, okay, yeah, let's find a way. And you'd think most parents would just go. You know what? No, that's not realistic, you're not doing it. But my parents were like, okay, we'll make this happen. And mom went out and she researched all the dance schools in the local area and obviously had a lot of them, laugh her out of the place and just say, oh, come on, look at your little girl. She can't stand up. How's she going to dance?
Hannah Cockcroft:And one lady, a lady called Penny Alexander. She ran a dance school in Halifax called Dance for All, and she said you know what? What I can't teach Hannah ballet like no one's going to teach Hannah ballet. But I will teach her to dance and I'm going to build this dance class. She called it creative dance and she said we're just going to invite people like Hannah or able-bodied. They can come and dance and it's going to be a mix of any kind of dance and if I put a move in a dance that Hannah can't do, we'll remove it from the dance and we'll go from there.
Hannah Cockcroft:So Penny was actually the lady that initially taught me to walk. When I did, you know that was her first aim was to, yeah, get me on my feet and get me moving. So she used to come along to tumble tots with with me and my mom and she got me walking. And then I danced with Penny for 17 years after that, you know, I danced in shows, I danced on tv. I won. Mum always said like we have to use the word dance very loosely because everyone else was dancing and I was kind of just in a corner doing my own thing.
Sue Anstiss:It's still dance One step behind.
Hannah Cockcroft:But you know what? I loved it and I never felt she never made me feel like I was doing it wrong or like I was out of time or like I made the dance look rubbish, like she just she just let me get on. And it. For my mom it was just a really clever way of getting me to do some physiotherapy. To be fair, I think that was, that was the whole idea. But for me it was just a dream come true. You know, getting on the stage and dressing up and being a part of, you know, a group of girls that all danced. It was a. I loved it.
Sue Anstiss:I only stopped because I started racing on Saturdays, so I had to stop and make a choice and you'd obviously struggled with your health from being a baby, so can you tell us a bit more about that?
Hannah Cockcroft:yeah, so when I was born, I had two cardiac arrests. Uh, within 24 hours of my birth. The first cardiac arrest left me clinically dead for 20 minutes and then I was alive for a little while and then my heart gave up again and basically doctors told my parents just not to expect very much from me. You know that they had no idea how this was gonna affect me. I had a serious brain damage following the heart attacks because of the amount of time that I was not breathing for.
Hannah Cockcroft:And, yeah, that kind of that was the guidance that mom and dad got, like whatever you get is going to be the best you get, and it did. It left me with several areas of brain damage and then also damage to my nerve endings. So then that led to weak hips and deformed feet and deformed legs and also problems with my fine motor skills. So I can't tie my shoelaces, I have messy, really messy handwriting. I really it's quite hard for me to write and, yeah, I guess when you've got a list like that, it doesn't really give you very much to go off, does it?
Sue Anstiss:and how did those challenges, with the that disability, affect your everyday life as a young child?
Hannah Cockcroft:I think as a young child you know what. I never really, growing up, noticed it. Everyone just treated it like that. That's Hannah, like that's how Hannah does things. And I grew up I've got two brothers, one older, one younger. Obviously my younger brother was just, he's always known me as this, so he's always known life with a disabled sister, and so he's literally like my, my first hand man. Anything I can't do, daniel does, and it's so nice. You know we've traveled all over the world together. We went to Tokyo together to race just before the Paralympic Games. He almost knows to do something before I've even asked him or need to do it, and I think that's just how I grew up, like everyone was one step ahead of me at all times. They knew what I needed, they knew what would make me do it, so I never actually noticed I couldn't really do things, which was I guess it's a luxury for a disabled person to feel like that.
Hannah Cockcroft:I hated my wheelchair growing up. I hated it. I refused to touch it, I refused to sit in it and it was ultimately because I didn't know anybody else in a wheelchair. I didn't know anybody else with a disability. I was in a very ill else with a disability. I was in a very ill-bodied world and I wanted to be like everybody else, as everyone does. Everyone wants to be like everybody else. So mum and dad kind of worked around that.
Hannah Cockcroft:You know, I was in a pushchair until I was 10. I got carried. I just opted to get carried. I'd hold onto people's hands, anything, anything, so that I didn't have to sit in a wheelchair. So you did have a wheelchair at home that was available to you. But yeah, I had a very big, heavy, i-couldn't-push-it-myself wheelchair and I think that's what put me off. I've always been quite an independent person. I've always been brought up to be quite. I'm going to do this myself. And when I sat in that wheelchair I you know, if it was a distance that I couldn't walk, then yeah, I would just get someone to carry me or I'd find any other way to not sit in that wheelchair.
Sue Anstiss:I think I was a nightmare child to be and I've heard you say that growing up, you felt there was nobody else like you in your world which feels so isolating, and I guess, as a, as a mother, thinking of your, you know children too. How did you even process that as a, as a young child?
Hannah Cockcroft:yeah, I guess. So when you're growing up in a world like that, where you you don't you know, I didn't have any friends that had disabilities, mum and dad didn't know anybody who had a disability, the tv didn't show it that, it was not in any magazines or anything. There was no coverage of disability, and definitely not the Paralympic Games. So it it was really, really lonely and I have a.
Hannah Cockcroft:Just before my fifth birthday, my mum had a friend in America and he rang my mum and said oh, they've just released this Barbie doll in a wheelchair. It was called Share a Smile Becky Doll. I think it'd be great for Hannah. And my mum was like, okay, I'll see if they do them here, and they didn't release them in the UK at all. So my mum wrote to Toys R Us in America and just said I have a five-year-old that is just about to be her fifth birthday. She refuses to use her wheelchair, she hates it, she thinks she's the only person in the world with a disability and she loves Barbie. Is there anything you can do to get one of those dolls to be like I'll pay anything.
Hannah Cockcroft:So yeah, for my fifth birthday r us sent me a share a smile becky doll and I I mean it must have been a slow news day because it made all the local news. But I actually have a, a clip from I think it's like itv calendar, and it's me saying, a five-year-old me saying oh, now I have barbie, I'm not alone anymore. And actually when I I it got dug out of the archives, like last year, just one of the journalists just sent it and said, oh, have you ever seen this? And I'd never seen it and it actually made me tear up like the girl on the screen wasn't me, it wasn't who I am today and I don't remember feeling like that. But obviously to to sit on telly and actually say that is that's heartbreaking. I would hate to see that on tv now, but it's obviously how I felt and yeah, this Barbie doll was was my reason to sit in a wheelchair and to feel okay with it. It's mad that a doll had to make me do that.
Sue Anstiss:But it shows the power of it, doesn't it really? I did see that clip. I'll share a link in the show notes too, because it is so emotional and how amazing that your mum I love your mum that your mum gonna work, but work so hard to go and, you know, get that, make that happen for you. That clearly then did have that impact oh yeah, my parents are amazing.
Hannah Cockcroft:I think you know, like you said, as a mum yourself, you, you do anything. You do absolutely anything to make your child feel welcome and feel part of the world. And yeah, I guess she, she obviously noticed that it was hard and I think when you're so young you don't notice. You know the authorities want me to go to a special school and my parents fought tooth and nail saying you know, there's nothing academically wrong with her, she can learn, she just can't walk very well like she. She's really clever, she'll do everything you want, just give her a chance. And they fought so hard to get me into mainstream school. And then, you know, I went on and just did really well in my GCSEs and my A-levels and it's crazy how my legs were deciding what kind of academic studies I could actually do. It was mad.
Sue Anstiss:And, as you say, you grew up in that very able-bodied world of school. But what was sport like at that?
Hannah Cockcroft:school.
Hannah Cockcroft:I didn't do sport at school. Sport was not a Sport for me was sitting on the side and watching. It was sitting in the library reading a book. Primary school my one day of sport a year was sports day. They brought in a race called the crab race which was basically crawling sideways and I was really good at it and I always won. So that was my one PE lesson a year was crawling sideways down the field. I used to love it. And yeah, secondary school was slightly different, kind of. The first year was was the same as primary.
Hannah Cockcroft:Hannah doesn't do sport and I had this one amazing teacher called Mrs Daniel and she just kind of said no, this isn't, this isn't right. You know, she, she can do these things. So she, um, she brought in the local wheelchair basketball team to do a demo for the rest of the class and that was my first ever taste of a Paralympic sport. It's the first time I ever met another disabled person and I was 12 years old, so pretty old by that point and um, yeah, it just blew my world right wide open when she did that. I obviously met the coach, ended up playing for that basketball team for six years and then from there, school kind of started to realize. Like you know, I wasn't asking to do cross country, I didn't want to go running around muddy fields.
Hannah Cockcroft:I'm not stupid, crazy um, but you know, little small adaptions could be made so that I could join in with some things. Um, so that's kind of where athletics started for me. My teacher, mrs daniel, she, she said well, everyone else is standing up and throwing a discus, throwing a shot put, we're just going to bring a chair outside and hannah will sit down and do it. And you know, from there they just started to realize that it's not that difficult to get disabled people involved. It's not. We're not asking you to reinvent the wheel, we're asking you to make a very small adaption.
Hannah Cockcroft:And yeah, it was such a small thing that you kind of look back now and think, why did no one think of that sooner? Why did it take so many years for me to be involved? But I think, until that point, just just mum and dad had fought so hard to get me to where I was. You kind of have to pick your battles, don't you? But yeah, that sitting in that chair on PE and throwing the discus was the start of everything you see today really and um.
Sue Anstiss:What are things like in schools now for disabled children in Britain? Are they much better?
Hannah Cockcroft:you know what I feel like it really depends. I think they are getting better, mostly because you can now see things like the Paralympic Games openly on the TV. So disabled children know what's on offer for them, they know what they have the opportunity to do and that kind of gives you that little bit of a push, when you're a parent, to go. Actually, you know, we, we know this is an option, they can do this. But I still visit schools, especially primary schools, where you go in and they say to me I don't do PE, I'm not allowed to do PE. And then you kind of have to bring the teachers to one side and say, look like there's, there's the tiniest thing you can do to make them feel involved. It it doesn't have to be the lesson that you're running. Just be creative, just think outside of the box. So, yeah, I think things are improving, but there's still so much further they could go.
Sue Anstiss:And you talked about discus. That's fantastic. It's about finding athletics and track and field. So what was the next stage? When did you first find wheelchair racing?
Hannah Cockcroft:So when I was 14, I got invited to a big UK event. It's called the School Games. It's run by the Youth Sport Trust. They're a fantastic charity. It's like a duty of Commonwealth Games because the teams emerged. They're able-bodied and disabled athletes. So I got invited along to that to represent Yorkshire and Humberside in the seat of Discus. I won a silver medal there for Yorkshire and that's the first place that I saw wheelchair racing.
Hannah Cockcroft:So off the back of that, you sport trust said you know, are you interested, do you want to go to a come and try day? And at that point I was still just. I just said yes to everything. As soon as I found sport, I just said yeah, I'll try it. You know, I tried. Through the basketball club I tried wheelchair rugby and wheelchair tennis and then through you sport trust, I tried wheelchair rugby and wheelchair tennis. And then, through Youth Sport Trust, I tried wheelchair racing.
Hannah Cockcroft:And I was 15 years old at this point and I just instantly loved it.
Hannah Cockcroft:I just instantly fell in love with the speed of it, with the independence going out, and I think for me it was the being out there and no one could help you. Once you were out there, I'd lived 15 years of my life, always avoiding a wheelchair, holding someone's hand, asking for help, needing the help. And when I got in that wheelchair, that racing wheelchair, I just felt free for the first time, just felt a sense of freedom that, you know, I could go as quick as I wanted. I could go for as long as I physically could. No one could tell me to slow down because the whole point is going quick and I didn't have to stop. You know, there was no end to the call, there was no end of range where I could throw it to. So, yeah, literally that was me. Like I had the come and try day. The following week I was up at Tanny Gray Thompson's house getting a coach and getting a race chair and getting everything. And that was me. I've literally done it every week since, every day since, probably that's wonderful.
Sue Anstiss:That's wonderful, that's so lovely. I love that description of the freedom and the speed. You know you articulate that so well in terms of what that gave you, that first experience too. And I love that we've had Sue Campbell and Ali Oliver from the Youth Sport Trust a big guest on the Game Changers too. So, yeah, big fans of the Youth Sport.
Hannah Cockcroft:Trust, brilliant women, brilliant women fantastic charity.
Sue Anstiss:So from that experience of enjoying that and then obviously meeting Tanni too, when was your first proper race? When did you start taking it more seriously?
Hannah Cockcroft:So my first proper race was actually the following year. I went back to the school games as a wheelchair racer. Oh wow, and I remember it because I lined up against all the girls that I'd watched the previous year and I beat them all, so it was great.
Sue Anstiss:You had this incredible rise too, and I watched your races from 2012 2012 and you were so far ahead of the opposition. So what do you think made you so incredibly successful so early? Was it pure raw talent or your fitness and power? I think a lot of it was just hunger.
Hannah Cockcroft:I have this inbuilt thing where someone tells me I can't do something. I will absolutely go out of my way to prove them wrong. And I think 15 years of just being told you can't do sport, they just build up because I always had a love of sport. You know, my younger brother's a really keen rugby player, so he played from the age of six and I used to go along and watch every rugby game and just sit on the side and and just think I wish I could be part of a team, I wish I could have that kind of I don't know camaraderie with that group of friends and and then when they won a match, I wish I had something that I could celebrate that way. And I never had that out, that outlet. So as soon as I found it, and as soon as I found something I was good at I think it was, I think it was quite good quite quickly, but as soon as I had that I just wanted to make the most of it. And I think I was quite good quite quickly. But as soon as I had that I just wanted to make the most of it. And I think a lot of it is down to you know as well, tani and her husband, ian.
Hannah Cockcroft:So Ian was my first coach and they they didn't take it easy on me. Like they were like if you want to do this, this, you're going to have to put the time in and you're going to have to work hard. Like there's no skipping sessions, there's no half hearting sessions, like this is what we do. So my first ever training weekend, literally the weekend after I'd done that, come and try, they had me out on the roads pushing like 10 miles and there was no question about it. It was like if you want to do this, you're going to do it. And so I think, from right from the beginning, I was taught like if you want to be good, you put the time in, you put the effort in, you work hard and then, when you've just had that inbuilt from right, from the start, that was what every session was. Then I think you know, when you start a sport, a lot of it is like I'm just going to go and enjoy it, whereas I started the sport and it was like I'm going to be good at this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be good at this. So, yeah, I think you know, uh, 2007 was when I first sat in the race chair. 2008 was that first race and then 2010 was my first world record.
Hannah Cockcroft:So it it all went quite quick, but I just built it into my life straight away. You know, as soon as we'd taken that chair away on that first weekend, I was training. You know, every day before school, every day after school, weekends the moment I'm having to pick me up in lunch breaks at college to to take me to training, just just whenever we could fit it in, that was me, and at the time it was just uh, I love this, I want, I want to constantly do it. It wasn't even like I'm going to work hard, it was just like I love it, I love the feeling of being in that race chair. So, yeah, I just wanted to do it all the time. I guess it's like a video game, but a healthier one.
Sue Anstiss:Real passion and addiction to it isn't it? And so much is said about the impact of London 2012 for Paralympic sport, but when you think back, what are your biggest memories from that event?
Hannah Cockcroft:Oh man, london 2012 is like if I could go back to any time in my life, I would. I would pick that every day and I think I will for my whole life. I think you can add anything and I'll still pick london 2012, because it was just incredible. Um, I remember going into the village for the first time. I was only 20 when I went to my first game, so I had I had no idea what to expect. To be honest, I just remember going into the village and everything was so big and so new and so exciting and we got like taken on a little show around and they took us in the food hall for the first time and I genuinely don't think any athlete will ever be able to explain to anyone who hasn't been in it just how exceptional food hall is at an Olympics.
Sue Anstiss:It is funny because I do have had real privilege to talk to many athletes and Olympians and Paralympians and so many of them do talk about the food hall.
Hannah Cockcroft:It's just so big and there's so much choice. And I just remember sitting there and thinking, oh man, I can get a Sunday roast at 2am if I want it while I'm here. That is an overwhelming like it's a massive pitfall for a lot of athletes. You have to have a lot of self-control. I also remember just sitting there and thinking I have never seen this many disabled people in my life. And it sounds stupid. You're at the Paralympic Games, of course you're gonna be surrounded by disabled people, but I think, just when it it still feels, it still feels so new.
Hannah Cockcroft:I'd been in the sport, uh, like five years. At that point I'd been to one world championships, but other than that I'd only done like local, national championships. So there was still like a limited number of girls that you raced against. You were only competing against girls in Britain. It was just such a wow moment, just such a I can't believe I'm here. And then you just you just wander around the village Like the village was incredible. You're just wandering around the village Like the village was incredible.
Hannah Cockcroft:And then I think my other overriding memory is we used to go down and train at the warm-up track. So I remember the day before my race we were training on the warm-up track, I was with my coach Peter Erickson was my coach for 2012. And I could hear this noise and it just sounded like quite a loud buzzing. You know like when you can't tune a radio in. That's what it sounded like. I just turned to Peter and I what is that noise? It's driving me insane. And he just went um Hannah, that's the crowd, you should probably get used to that. And I just remember thinking like, wait, we're not even in a stadium, how can we hear the crowd? We're quite far from the stadium. And it just, yeah, it terrified me a little bit but also made me just so, so excited that I was going to get the chance to go out in front of that. And I was going to, yeah, get the chance to race in front of that because I quite like attention.
Sue Anstiss:So it worked quite well for me and from London 2012 you went on to have incredible success. So you're unbeaten for seven years, I think, and as you mentioned earlier, the IPC tried to change the events for major championships so clearly frustrating when those your favorite distances, as you said at two of the 400 meters, were removed from Paralympic categories. How are those decisions made? Who makes those decisions?
Hannah Cockcroft:um, so the International Paralympic Committee make them by themselves. I genuinely think they made that decision because they didn't want the same athlete winning both races. So they put the offer out of a sprint and a middle distance. But I had other ideas and I really didn't want to do the eight. When it was announced I was was like I'll just do the one, not interested in the eight. And by that point I changed to my current coach, uh, jenny Banks, and Jenny was like, yeah, no, you don't get to make that decision, you're doing both. So that was argument over. She just told me what I was doing and I did the work.
Hannah Cockcroft:And the work was it was hard, it was really hard to learn how to do in 800 meters. It's so, so different to anything else and it's so far. I still find it such a long way, but we just worked on it. You know we we still had the 100 and the 200 at the 2013 world championships so I could go there. I could just be a sprinter, but we were already working on the 800 meters at that point.
Hannah Cockcroft:And then, uh, swansea, the european championships in 2014 was my, my first 800 meters, and it was ultimately. It was me and my teammate at the time, mel nichols. We were like the front runners, but mel actually preferred the middle distance to the sprint, so she'd been working on this for years. Like this was her favorite event. And I just remember jenny saying right, all you have to do is sit behind mel and just sprint. At the end that's exactly what I did and I just remember when I did it, mel swore at me so, so loud but I was like sorry, I don't know how to race this event. Thankfully I've got a lot better since then and I I do my own work now, I promise. But um, yeah, we have to do a few dirty tactics to learn it.
Sue Anstiss:That's fascinating, isn't it? In terms of the classification and the decisions on races and so on. So is it not the same for male and female? Like it's done.
Hannah Cockcroft:No, so the men in my classification, I think they have the 100, 400, 800. So they actually even have more events. I guess with the Paraly, paralympics there's so many classifications, there's so many events that could run that the ipc have to then select, I guess, which ones are going to be the strongest events to run, so who's who's going to enter the most events? But also try and make as many paralympic champions as possible.
Sue Anstiss:But, um, I ruined their plan and what's the gender equality like in paralympic sport?
Hannah Cockcroft:you see the same number of events yeah, I'd still say the women are a little down. So the the new program for 2024 has actually just been announced, um, and they have actually increased the number of women's events quite substantially, which is exciting. So, for example, they got rid of, uh, the t33 men's 100 meters and they put a women's t3300 meters in instead, simply because the men's event didn't have enough numbers. So, fingers crossed, the women can fill the race and it's, it's this, it's this difficult thing, isn't it about? There's no point in having a race if there's only two or three people lining up in it. But actually, if we don't have the race, then people can't see people like them and they can't get involved in the sport and they're not inspired to get involved in the sport. So it's kind of like a double-edged sword, where there aren't enough people racing it, so the race gets taken out so that people can't join the race because there's no race there. So, yeah, hopefully the women fill it and that's another event for the girls that we can keep.
Hannah Cockcroft:Um, but yeah, I guess it is all down to numbers, like when you get into the higher classifications, the t54s, so people like david weir or, um, I don't know, shelly woods, they tend to have every event.
Hannah Cockcroft:So they've got the 100, 400, 800, 15, 5k and marathon and I kind of look at that and think, oh, I'd like a few more events.
Hannah Cockcroft:But yeah, it's, it's an ongoing conversation with the ipc that you know the events, the event groups that have higher support needs, so my event would would just about fall into that. They need more events because ultimately, the parambit games is, it's for all disabled people, it's not just for the most able and, okay, we might not be the quickest and we might not be the most fascinating to watch. You know, I would much rather watch a t54 men's 1500 because there's probably going to be a crash at some point and it's all very exciting. But ultimately sports for everyone and we need to replicate that through the program. So I think, yeah, I think the IPC are working really, really hard on doing that and making that more obvious in their programming. But there's always going to be backlash from athletes. We're such difficult people to work with I'm just so aware of it we're never happy and you've had that amazing unbeaten record for so long.
Sue Anstiss:So how did it feel after all of that to finally not not win a race? I think we had that expectation of you, didn't we that? Oh, hannah's in the race. You know she's going to win, so there's that added pressure too. But how did it feel when other athletes coming through.
Hannah Cockcroft:It felt horrible. It felt like my world had ended and I genuinely think at the time, like just crossing that line, it didn't feel that bad. I was just like, okay, this is what happens in athletics and I was okay with it. It was more other people's reactions that made it, that made it horrible. It was it was Carrie O'Donoghan that finished my unbeaten streak. Uh, she was the first girl to beat me in seven years and she's actually still the only girl to have ever beaten me in my career. She's she's beaten me a handful of times, so I guess that's what a rivalry is. But you know what it made? It made me even more hungry, you know. It made me realize that people were coming through.
Hannah Cockcroft:But at the time, yeah, just crossing that finish line, I was shocked, understandably. But I was like, okay, this is cool. And then just just the way people reacted, like people were like, oh, you're rubbish. Oh, like everyone ran over to carry. And it was this massive celebration and people were literally like not cheering that she'd won, cheering that she'd beaten me which felt really. It felt really targeted. It felt more like a hit campaign against me rather than an actual celebration of her achievement. I mean, when it happened it was, it was literally like a little national event. If she hadn't beaten me, no one would have ever known that race had gone on.
Hannah Cockcroft:Um, but it was in the papers, it was everywhere and it was all just like really horrible headlines of how, you know, I'd lost my touch and that was my career finished. And you know, I was only. I was probably. How old was I? I was 24, so I was still really young to to be getting my head around things like that. And yeah, it was. It's not great, it was not a nice time at all it's interesting though, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss:but from a media and a public perspective, I think people like Serena Williams and others, but it's almost when someone's had that such longevity of winning, there is that turning against or wanting to see it overcome in some way, rather than keep celebrating the amazing champion and recognising that you're still incredible in terms of what you're achieving.
Hannah Cockcroft:Yeah, I think it's like I kind of get it, but at the same time, like I think it's a language that's used it's always so-and-so, has beaten, so-and-so, and the celebration is always the fact that they've beaten the other person rather than the fact that they've just won, whereas you know, when I win, it's it's never oh, hannah's beaten, carrie, it's. It's always like, oh, hannah's won again. And it's always like hang on a second. Why do we always make it sounds like it's not an achievement? It's, it's a massive achievement.
Hannah Cockcroft:You know the rival is there. She has the potential to beat me in every single race that we line up in, but when she wins it's it is this massive like oh, wow, she's done it. And when I do it, it's like, oh, yeah, she's done it again. That's fine. And sometimes it's frustrating. You know, it's really frustrating because you feel like people aren't recognizing the work that actually went into that. People aren't noticing like, yeah, I trained every day to make that happen. I've based my whole life around wheelchair racing. I've not missed a session. Um, yeah, it's it's really interesting.
Hannah Cockcroft:Yeah, I just think the whole narrative. It has to change and it has to be more supportive of everyone, because, ultimately, when someone wins, someone doesn't win, and being the person that doesn't win is it's not a nice place to be.
Sue Anstiss:And when you then read the language that's that's used about you for not winning it, it can, yeah, it's, it's not, it's not great and, as we discussed at the beginning of the conversation, you've now won kind of everything in terms of medals and championships and constantly setting records too. So what keeps you to keep driving and beating more records and I guess also what keeps you motivated to keep training so hard day to day?
Hannah Cockcroft:you know what? I think it's changed a lot through my career. What's motivated me for a long time it was it was just being the best. I loved winning and I'm not afraid of saying it, it sounds really big-headed. I trained because I loved to win and I knew that I could win if I kept working the way I was. Then, when Carrie beat me, I realized that that had to change because if winning is all that motivates you, then when you don't win, you you've got no motivation. So actually going forward for a long time, for a few years it was beat and carry. That was my motivation. And it sounds horrible but, like I said, that's a rivalry, that's what sometimes you train for.
Hannah Cockcroft:Then we got to lockdown, obviously in the pandemic, and I suddenly didn't have any races to beat carry in. I didn't have any races to beat carry in. I didn't have any races to win. So actually at that time, if that was my motivation, then I probably would have just stopped pushing. So I realized in that time that actually my motivation is enjoyment. It's finding the bits that I enjoy about my sport, that I train for, and basically taking myself back 10 years. You know it's taken me back to when I started.
Hannah Cockcroft:Why did I start? I didn't start because I knew that I would win. I didn't start to beat one particular person or a group of girls. I did it because I loved it. So I think in lockdown I had the opportunity to just move away from programs and timetables and you know, you have to be ready for this event and you have to then get ready for this and I could just do the sessions that I loved and that I enjoyed, and I made a lot of changes. Um, carrie beat me again at the 2018 European Championships and so it's the only major title that I've, not that I've won a silver medal in. It's my only major silver medal and when I came away from that, I made a lot of changes.
Hannah Cockcroft:So I changed my SNC coach, I changed my chair, I changed, I moved house. I moved to Chester, away from Yorkshire, so that I could move club, and I moved club so that I could train with other people, because up until that point, I trained completely on my own. So for 10 years, I trained every day on my own and it was. It was a lot, it was hard and motivation was hard and it was the best thing that I ever did, because actually, once I'd found the sessions I enjoyed in lockdown, I then went back to the club and I just found that I loved being around other people. I love that I can go to club and you don't even think about the session that you're doing.
Hannah Cockcroft:You know, I train with mainly a group of men, aside from Samantha Kinghorn. So Sammy Sammy also races with Kirby AC. Sammy's one of my best friends, but we're also very, very close in times so we just challenge each other every single session. We're always pushing each other to get the best out of each other. We're always racing and the work that we're doing together is actually helping.
Hannah Cockcroft:You know, wheelchair racing for the women get stronger in Britain because for so long it it kind of just disappeared a bit. You know we, when I started racing, we had so many girls coming through, so many talented young women coming through, and just bit by bit, for whatever reason, they all stopped, they all dropped off and we went through a real lull. Right now we appear to be bringing more girls into the sport and actually bringing through quite a talented bunch of girls. So there's myself and Sammy, and then I mentioned Melanie Woods at the beginning of the chat during the Great North Run. Mel's only been pushing three years, I think, so she's still relatively new, but she's a T54. Sammy's a T53. I'm a T34. So we're all relatively close in times.
Hannah Cockcroft:And then this year, eden Rabel-Cooper, who won the Commonwealth Games Marathon. She's really come on in her track racing too. So this year it's been fantastic to have four of us really pushing it out on the track in all the British events, really challenging each other, really showing what what we can do and test each other. And I think, yeah, the motivation now is just to see, see what this body can do and it was great this summer to see you competing in the Diamond League in Birmingham.
Sue Anstiss:How important do you think it is to see para sport integrated in those events in that way?
Hannah Cockcroft:I think it's so, so important and I think the last few years have shown how possible it is as well. So the first integrated event I did was actually the British Championships in 2020. So, during the pandemic, british Athletics added the para disciplines to the British Championships for the first time ever. Like during a time when we literally couldn't do anything, we made integration possible, we made inclusion possible, and it just shows that it could have always happened. There was no excuse and it's carried on since then, thankfully, and this year again we've seen a massive rise. So we obviously had Birmingham 2022. That was the Commonwealth Games. That were integrated. Before that, we had the Birmingham Diamond League integrated. My boyfriend raced in both Zurich and Lusanne Diamond Leagues. They both had a wheelchair race in each. My teammates, some of them, went out to the polish diamond league and that was integrated. There was a integrated race in corking island and it's fantastic to see. But why has it taken this long? Why? Why did it need a pandemic in the middle and and everything else for people to actually to go? You know what athletics is just athletics. It doesn't matter if you're in a wheelchair or if you're running. We're all using the same facilities, same officials, same track and it's so important because it's you know what? It's giving our sport a new audience that we can reach um.
Hannah Cockcroft:So I had a really funny conversation. I coach an athlete, a young athlete. She's called anya and she's 16 and she raced at the school games this year, which is obviously where I started and she won the race and after the race I was handing out the medals and she went, oh yeah, like look, we're coming through. We're like the three next blondes. And I went what, who are the three blondes? And she went you, sammy and Mel. And I went why did you call us that? And she went, well, she went. Well, you three are blonde, so and you're always the best in britain, so you're the three blondes and we're not blonde. So we're the three brunettes and we're going to be the next you.
Hannah Cockcroft:Now it's just like how crazy is it that? That's how we're being talked about, like now, groups of girls in our sport are going. We're going to be the next hannah, sammy and mel, like we. We want to do what they do. We want to go and do that and I think you really, really lose sight of, you know, the opportunities that maybe we're bringing through for for the young girls that are coming through and it was just fun. It was so, so funny, but it was fantastic to see that, you know, because they were like well, you race at the Diamond Leagues and you race at the, the Par paralympics together, and we want to do that and I was just I'd never really thought about it. So, yeah, it's so interesting how important integration is and how many more people see that and go yeah, that's what I want to do building on that, that opportunity to inspire others.
Sue Anstiss:I loved your post on international women's day last year. If I can just read a little bit of it back to you um, doing it for the girls that were never encouraged to chase their dreams or never given the right opportunities to do so. Doing it for those that were told it wasn't possible, that they weren't strong enough, determined enough, brave enough, good enough, and doing it to prove so many people wrong. So I really love that and I, I, it's great to see how much and how important it is for you to inspire those young girls of the future. You know, in sport and in para sport too, you know, I think for me.
Hannah Cockcroft:I've got to an age now where I realise that I am in a very, very privileged position to make a change. To make a change that women before me haven't had the chance to make and that can ultimately change the lives of girls that come before me haven't had the chance to make and that can ultimately change the lives, the lives of girls that come after me. You know, for girls like the girl that I coach, I could change their life with what I do now. And I think you know for a long time I always had that question thrown at me like, oh, how does it feel to inspire other people? And I'd always kind of say I'm not interested in that, I'm doing it because I love it, and I still love it. But actually the more I love it, the more opportunity I get, and the more opportunity I get, the more I actually get to make sure that that's then embedded in the future.
Hannah Cockcroft:I know that there are still girls out there that are like me, that were told, that are being told at a young age that they can't do things, that they'll never do things. I hate the word can't. There's nothing that we can't do. You can do anything and everything that you want to do. We can't do everything, but you can do anything. And I've fallen into that trap a lot, you know, thinking I can do everything. I can be an elite athlete, I can be a TV presenter, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this. You can't do everything, but you can do absolutely anything in life if you put your mind to it, if you get the right group of people behind you. But you can't do it if you don't have the opportunity, and currently, especially for disabled women, there's there's just not that much opportunity. So I'm in a place where I can provide it, where I can create it, and yeah, I'm always I mean, I'm quite mouthy anyway, so I just say what I think in it sometimes people listen.
Sue Anstiss:I'm going to quote you back at yourself again here as well too. But having not wanted to be in your wheelchair as a young girl, you shared such a powerful post on international day of the wheelchair and you said after years growing up and avoiding one, I hope my life shows people that wheelchairs are nothing but a mobility aid, helping over 110 million people worldwide work hard and achieve their dreams. So clearly it's really important for you to raise that profile for the challenges wheelchair users face. But how important is it in terms of that day-to-day access, in terms of transport and, you know, being out on high streets, just living life, really, yeah I think that that's more important to me than anything, because I think people, people look at us as elite athletes and they go.
Hannah Cockcroft:They don't have the same difficulties as I do day to day. And the thing is, you know, if, if that shop doesn't have a ramp, then I'm not getting in it just as much as an everyday person isn't getting in it. I haven't got as much as a profile, but I have an opportunity to actually raise that and say this isn't right. And and I also want to change the way people see a wheelchair. You know, I know that I was so terrified of it. It had such a negative connotation growing up that I avoided it. And actually, you know, had I not avoided it, how different would my life have been? How much more would I potentially have been able to do? I'll never know the answer to that, but I hate. I hate to think that there are people again like me out there thinking, oh, I can't be in a wheelchair. It makes me different, because ultimately it doesn't. It just makes you more able to do things. I actually did a talk for a company literally the other day and I did my talk and you know I was saying like how freeing wheelchair racing was and how it was my independence and my freedom. And then the colleagues had the opportunity to to try some wheelchair basketball actually, and one of the the people got in the the wheelchair and, like, started pushing and went, oh how is this freedom? It's horrible. And I kind of of went. Well, the whole point of this is you can't use your legs, so that's freedom. And she was like, oh no, I couldn't do this. The thing is we don't get the choice to not do that. You know, I can walk a little bit, so maybe sometimes, yeah, I go. I don't want to use my wheelchair today, but there are so, so many people who don't get the choice to go. Oh, this isn't freedom, this is horrible. That's the way we live. And yeah, it's horrible because you built a basketball court on a hill. Of course it's horrible, you're pushing up a hill, but that's the whole point. That's why access and inclusion is so important, because it is horrible when you can't get in a shop. It's horrible when the lift's broken. It's horrible when you can't get in a shop. It's horrible when the lift's broken. It's horrible when I have to say I can't go to an event because they don't have access. It's horrible that I have to book in advance to get on a train. It's rubbish, it's not freedom, it's not independence, it's relying on people and we don't want to do it as much.
Hannah Cockcroft:As that lady getting in that wheelchair went oh, this is horrible, yeah it. Yeah, it is because it wasn't perfect and I think it's little things like that. That, hopefully, you know, when she said that, it made her realize. So it definitely made her workplace realize. Oh, this building isn't isn't perfect for disabled people. We can make small adaptions, we can make a difference, and so hopefully I went away and I'd made a difference to make them realize little things that people do every day. It can actually make the lives of disabled people so much easier and so much more accessible. Because, yeah, I might look like I can do anything when I'm out on that athletics track, but things like small hills and curbs are my kryptonite and they can stop me actually going anywhere. So, yeah, it's um, it's a big fight. It's a fight that I'm never going to win on my own, but if you can light a small light around it and make people maybe think a little bit more about it, then, yeah, hopefully it'll make a change.
Sue Anstiss:You never know and you've obviously traveled around the world more than most average people. But how does does wheelchair access for users in the UK vary from other countries?
Hannah Cockcroft:I'd say it sits steadily in the middle. For example, my older brother lives in Finland. The wheelchair access there is phenomenal. Like there is not a single shop, a single anything, without a ramp, without some way for me to get in their tram system. Their tram system, their train system is completely level access so that I could just wheel on and get on their buses. All have ramps, honestly like flawless. The same with barcelona, so so easily easy to get around.
Hannah Cockcroft:But then you go to places I don't know like um, like america, and they're, they're just like us. You can't really get anywhere and and we are taking steps forward we are improving in Britain slowly but surely, but a lot of it is just people's attitude and I think you know what, for a long time post-2012, people really changed their mind about disabled people, but almost to a negative effect, and it sounds really weird to say that, but I actually had a strange experience post London and I was so used to just going down the street and people going like oh you know, you're amazing, what you did was fantastic, well done. And I actually had one disabled lady stop me. And she said I think what you did was fantastic, but you've made my life hell. And I said I don't understand how I could have affected your life. And she said you do realize that now you and your teammates are doing that. I get called a benefits ground guy. I get called lazy, I get told that I should be doing that.
Hannah Cockcroft:And suddenly, post 2012, everyone decided that every disabled person could be a Paralympic champion. Oh, if you're not doing sport, you're lazy, or if you're not doing sport, then you need to get a job. And it was like you know, we don't look at every able-bodied man and go, huh, you could beat you same ball, so why? Why are we suddenly expecting every disabled person to have the ability of a Paralympian? It really shocked me, actually, when she said it and it made me feel quite apologetic, but then it made me realize that, yeah, we, we probably need to make people realize that, even though channel four called us superhumans, yeah, we're superhumans. When we're on the track, we're actually getting around and about way. We are just the same as every other person in this country with a disability, and this country doesn't really help us with that we hear such positive things about finland on so many levels, don't we?
Sue Anstiss:so what is it? Why have they invested so much? Why are things so good there, do you think?
Hannah Cockcroft:you know what? I think it's just a much newer country, isn't it? It's everything there is is quite new the technology, they're so forward thinking with it. They're a much smaller population, so they have much more money per head to to make things work. There's so so many reasons, but you know, I said, it's about the attitude of people as well. It's. It's amazing how many, I don't know buses in london are accessible, but yeah, I have never yet been allowed to get on a bus in london.
Hannah Cockcroft:There was once, me and again, mel nichols, the girl that I raced with in london 2012. It was post london. We were there for a london 2012 celebration and we went to get on a bus and he went no, just one wheelchair. And we went it's okay, there's two wheelchairs, but also two people in the wheelchair, so we can get on. And he was like nope, you're not getting on.
Hannah Cockcroft:So we made a point and we raced him to every bus stop, which is very it's very me thing to do, just to make a point. But and I beat him to, every single one like to point out but um, it's that attitude of no, you're a wheelchair, I'm actually I'm not, I'm a human and I'm in a wheelchair and you have it everywhere bus, taxis, so many people go. I know one wheelchair and it's so hard, even like I live with my fiance. He's also a wheelchair user, so it's so difficult. You know the first few times when we tried to go out together and get on a train even, and they were like, oh no, one wheelchair per space. Oh my God, we're like, look, we just want to sit together.
Sue Anstiss:And we just want to sit together and I'd never even thought about it. I feel awful that I've never even considered that. But you wouldn't Of course you're going with the girl.
Hannah Cockcroft:Because it wouldn't affect you, and I totally get that. But it is like you're constantly referred to as wheelchair. Well, I'm not a wheelchair, I'm a human.
Sue Anstiss:We've also seen you doing more on the TV away from sport, so you were on celebrity bake-off uh, strictly come dancing for sport relief, and you also had a stint presenting bbc's country fire too, and you've seen such a natural in front of the camera, so is that something that you'd like to do more of? Thank, you.
Hannah Cockcroft:Yeah, I love doing things like that and you know I'm always more nervous doing things like that than I am before I line up for a race, because ultimately, like it's always something different. It's always something I've got to learn and a lot of the time I'm the first person in a wheelchair to do it. So I was the first wheelchair user on the British Bake Off, so we had to redesign the set so that I could get around it myself and Martine were the first wheelchairs on Strictly, so obviously the dancers had to be built around us and we had to get special wheelchairs to do it. So there's always so many things to think about. But I think the amazing thing about being on there is number one again. You reach a new audience, a new audience of people who might be sat at home thinking there's nothing for me. It really does prove that we can do absolutely anything. Thinking there's nothing for me, it really does prove that we can do absolutely anything, but also that we can do anything with the right support, but especially BBC Countryfile.
Hannah Cockcroft:You know that was for me that was an absolute dream come true. That's like dream job and I was doing things that I never, ever dreamt that I would get the chance to do so. I herded highland cattle across a beach in the Alta Hebrides, just hands down the most incredible day of my life. I was a gamekeeper for a day. I was, um, a dairy farmer for a day, and they're all jobs that you don't, you don't think of and go.
Hannah Cockcroft:Our wheelchair users could do that, but they made it possible. They made it possible for me to be there and to do it, and it wasn't, it absolutely wasn't easy. A lot of them were really hard places to get to and to make it work, but we made it work and do I love it. I love just getting the opportunity to go out and then just, I guess, challenging myself in a different way because actually, on paper, all those different things that I've done at the start, I've gone. Oh, I don't, I don't think I can do that, and then my mom will go yeah, but you'll be great if you don't just give it a go. So I'll give it a go and yeah, almost every time it works, so it's fine and uh, hard to believe that Paris 2024 is just two years away now.
Sue Anstiss:Like less than that moving forward, isn't it? But I just wonder, do you? Do you ever think about retirement beyond that? Or are you just so focused on keep training for next year and competing um?
Hannah Cockcroft:I obviously know that retirement's on the horizon, so I do think about it. I have no idea what I want to do when I retire, though, and people do keep asking me like, oh, you must be retiring soon, and the thing is like for a long time I thought Tokyo would be my last. Three seems like a good amount. Free Paralympic Games. A lot of people seem to do that, um, and actually, I got there and I was like I'm not done, I'm not, I'm not done. So I refuse to kind of put a stamp on it and say, oh, paris will be my last, or I'd love to, I'd love to get to LA. I think it'll be a push, but you might see me there, and that's the thing. Like, as long as I'm enjoying it, I'll keep doing it. But yeah, there's always one eye on the future. There's always one eye on what happens when all this ends, because it is going to end. There's going to be an end to this. Unfortunately, it's kind of scary.
Hannah Cockcroft:You know, I've been doing this since I was 15. I've been on British Athletics, uk sport funding, since I was 16. I've ultimately never had a real job, and the thought of a real job really, really terrifies me because I'll be like, I'm like an intern. I'll have no idea, I'll have no experience, I'll have nothing. So, um, I need to do this for as long as possible. I'll worry about that. But TV is a dream. I'd love to go into that. I've done my. I did my coaching exams last year, leading into this year, so I'm a registered coach now. So that's always an option and I think, just the whole time I'm competing I'm trying to build up the options that I can then move into, because I don't think I'll ever stick to one thing. I like to try everything and and absolutely anything.
Sue Anstiss:How amazing is Hannah? I can't wait to hear all she goes on to achieve. Head over to fearlesswomencouk to find out more about all of the game changers I've spoken to for the podcast. Other incredible para-athletes I've had the privilege to talk to include Sarah Story, tanigwe Thompson, sophie Carragill, anne Wafula-Strike, pippa Britton and Lauren Stedman.
Sue Anstiss:As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Collective, a free community network for all women working in sport. You can also sign up for the Fearless Women newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport and there's more about my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport. Thanks again to Sport England for backing the game changes through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker, who does such a great job as our executive producer. Finally, thanks to my brilliant colleague, kate Hannan, who does so much behind the scenes at Fearless Women. Do come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on Twitter, linkedin, instagram and Facebook, at Sue Anstis and if, if you have a couple of moments, it'd be wonderful if you could leave a review or rating for the podcast, as it really does make a big difference in helping us to reach new audiences. The game changes. Fearless women in sport.
