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The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Charlotte Edwards: Breaking boundaries in cricket
My guest on The Game Changers today is cricketing legend Charlotte Edwards who shares her extraordinary journey from making her England debut at just 16 to becoming one of the sport's most influential figures as a player and coach.
Breaking countless records throughout her 20-year playing career, Charlotte was appointed England Captain in 2006 and led the team to win the Women's Cricket World Cup in 2009 along with three outright Ashes series.
Following her playing career, Charlotte was appointed Director of Women's Cricket at Hampshire in 2018 and has gone on to become a much respected and hugely successful coach for teams in the ECB’s domestic league, The Hundred, WPL in India and WBBL in Australia.
Awarded an MBE in 2009 and a CBE in 2014, in 2022 Charlotte was inducted into the ICC Cricket Hall of Fame. She even has a competition named after her – The Charlotte Edwards Cup.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstis, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys? As we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond, I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners at Sport England, who support the game changers through a national lottery award. My guest today is Charlotte Edwards, one of the most significant figures in women's cricket.
Speaker 1:At the time of her international debut back in 1996, charlotte became the youngest woman to play for England.
Speaker 1:In 1997, the day before her 18th birthday, she scored what remains the highest score for an English player in a Women's One Day International, with 173 runs, 20-year career and in 2008 was named ICC Women's Cricketer of the Year and the PCA Women's Player of the Year and Wisdom Cricketer of the Year in 2014. Appointed England captain in 2006, charlotte led the team to win the Women's Cricket World Cup in 2009, along with three outright Ashes series. Following her playing career, she was appointed Director of Women's Cricket in Hampshire in 2018 and has gone on to become a much respected and successful coach for teams in the ECB's Domestic League, along with teams in the 100, the WPL in India and the WBBL in Australia, awarded an MBE in 2009 and a CBE in 2014,. In 2022, charlotte was inducted into the ICC Cricket Hall of Fame. So, charlotte, you started your career back in 1996. Can you paint a picture for us of what women's cricket was like for an England team at that time?
Speaker 2:Oh, I wish I could. It's unrecognisable to what it is now, I can tell you that for sure. But equally just as special to me. I think you know I got my England call up in 1996. I remember going to Guildford in Surrey to play my first Test match for England and on arrival my dad having to pay for my England Blazer. I don't think I've ever forgotten that moment. If I'm honest, I remember staying in university accommodation for the whole Test match. The world to me because I was playing cricket for England. So it didn't seem strange then. It felt like the norm, very amateur in terms of where England women's cricket was at at that point we weren't even merged with ECB. And then to think now where the game is, having just come back from the WPL in India, and seeing how the game has grown in the time that I've been playing yeah, I'm equally just as proud of that of any sort of individual accolades I've received over the years.
Speaker 1:I think it is important to reflect, though, isn't it? On the history sometimes, because we get a bit caught up with where we are now, with growth and professionalism, but you weren't full-time cricketers then. So what was day-to-day life like for you as a player, and a young player, clearly then still in education at that age?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was in education I'd just finished my GCSEs when I played for England and then I was fully immersed in England women's cricket. Then I went to the World Cup in 1997. I had to. I'd started college in Cambridge at that point and quite realized quite quickly I couldn't combine both, whereas now there is so many universities that are so sympathetic and helpful towards athletes and their needs so I didn't really get that back then. So I had to find a job, because playing cricket for England was obviously expensive as well. So, yeah, I worked for my cricket bat manufacturers, hunter County Bats, and for 10 years I combined that with playing cricket for England. So I do remind the youngsters now of my early years because I think you know it was. I mean, I'm now involved in a professional setup in women's cricket and I see the younger players now coming through and, like I said earlier, it's unrecognizable. It's it's unbelievable where the game's gone in in the time that I've been involved in the game and a lot of hard work's gone into that absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:And how did you come to be in the England team and get that selection? What was your pathway in terms of a kind of sports as a young person?
Speaker 2:well, I, up until the age of 12, didn't realize that women play cricket. If I'm honest, my all my involvement had been in cricket was with men and boys and my dad's local cricket club. And it wasn't until I was 12 years old and I was playing actually for the county boys team that I got recognized by a guy who was watching my game and I got sort of 30 or 40 runs and he came up to my dad at the end of the game. He said I think your daughter needs to go and play some women's cricket. He said I know the England selector. And then within a week or so I was having England under 19 trials and within another couple of weeks I was playing for the England under 19s at the age of 12.
Speaker 2:And I guess everything happened really, really quickly for me and that sounds absurd now that you'd be a 12-year-old playing for England under 19s, but at the age of 12, I was playing for England under 19s and then at the age of 16, making my debut for England. So it all happened very, very quickly. But a lot of the cricket I played to get me to that point was boys and men's cricket and it prepared me fully to play international cricket. I guess, being a young girl growing up then there were quite a few challenges in terms of being accepted to play and I've never forgotten those moments, if I'm honest, and I often look back now and look at young girls and think how easy it is now for girls now coming into game and men accepting that girls play cricket. But it certainly wasn't the the fact then. It was actually very difficult and I can really kind of connect with those challenges that women faced back then to play. I think it was.
Speaker 2:Someone said to me why did you continue to play? Because I said I love. I had this desire and love for the game that I guess outweighed anything that was trying to tell me not to play and I'm glad I stuck with it. But I'm glad I was good enough to stick with it Because I think had I not have been quite good enough maybe to play boys and men's cricket, maybe I wouldn't be sat here now having done what I've done in the game. So I feel very fortunate that I had a lot of good support from teachers and parents that kept supporting me to play the game I love and you were the first player, I believe, male or female, to go past two and a half thousand runs, and you broke countless records, even really early in your career.
Speaker 1:I think 12 centuries in 1997. So what was it, if you know, you've considered, but what do you think did set you apart and make you such a fantastic player, not just as a girl player, but know, as a player?
Speaker 2:yeah, I say I think the the challenges I had growing up with with being accepted to play, because I guess you have to really be quite mentally tough to overcome those type of challenges and, um, no, that would, that was hard. But I look back on it and think that really did make me mentally tough and I I think in cricket it's a sport you have to be quite mentally tough because you get quite a few knockbacks in the game. You know you get a duck and you feel like it's the end of the world. And now, as a coach, I can really empathise with players because I've been through all of that.
Speaker 2:I've had games where people didn't necessarily want me on the field. You know there was those kinds of situations. And so, yeah, I think what helped me along the way was being quite mentally tough, and obviously you've got to be talented, of course, but I think at the highest level, it's where your mental strength comes in and I feel that was probably the one thing that I I had and I think I've continued to have, because I think you've even got to have it in in coaching and and in life. So, um, yeah, that's definitely helped me along the way.
Speaker 1:And as you look back over that career and it was a long, you know long career of playing and then captioning are there specific days or moments and events that you think of as the most memorable? For different reasons, but what is it that you will reflect back on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess there's numerous things that happened in the 20 odd years I was playing cricket for England. I think you know your debut is always a special moment and it was even more special because it was quite amateur back then and I do, you know I love that that moment. You always cherish that moment of playing for England. I think going to my first world cup in 97 in India and now to be working in India in a very different role is is equally as special. I think.
Speaker 2:Um, the 2005 Ashes I think was the first time women's cricket I guess got recognition, probably, uh, from the media.
Speaker 2:I think the open top bus ride around London with the men's team was was up there. Um, I think me getting England captaincy in in 20, 2006 and then winning the World Cup I think that would always be the highlight of my career in Sydney in 2009 and then to come back and win the World Cup here in England. I think 2009 will always have a special place in my heart. And then when we became a profession in 2013, it was a moment that I guess we'd all worked and strived for over the years and I remember the call I got. It was one of those moments I think a tear comes to your eye because you knew that the game was going to change dramatically, and it certainly has. The last 10 years have been unbelievable, and to be part of that journey as a player, now a coach, and see how the game's evolved has been, um yeah, truly special it's remarkable, isn't what you think, that it's only just over 10 years ago, like so recent still, that that kind of switch and I hadn't as interesting.
Speaker 1:Here you say that I hadn't thought about.
Speaker 2:Obviously everything's gone into getting to that point, but actually when you do get that call, uh, that tells you it's happening, uh, quite a moment, yeah you you just think, wow, you know, and you think of all the players and the people that have done all that work to get to that point and I I've never forgotten those people and I think I really hope the players now, yeah, connect with those types of people that have got us to this point, because a lot of people fought really hard for everything we've got and continue to have.
Speaker 2:Really, I mean, it's just every year there's some announcement that you're going wow, is this really happening? And yeah, I have to pinch myself to think, yeah, we're in the situation we're in and, as you said, it's moved so quickly Even in the last five years. What's happened in the domestic game and professionalism has been so special to be part of, because you've watched the new wave of players coming through and, yeah, I feel like I've had the best seat in the house all along to kind of experience it and feel very fortunate to be on this wonderful wave that we're on with women's cricket at the moment.
Speaker 1:And you retired almost at the top of the game, but you were still performing. Was there ever a temptation to create a life completely away from cricket, or did you always know you would find something in cricket? I tried.
Speaker 2:You would find something in cricket. I tried when I finished playing I think I just wanted to get away from not away from cricket, but I guess the ups and downs of cricket that you have. And so I enjoyed the first couple of years. But I actually just went and did loads of stuff Still involved in the game. But I was going out to America. I did some coaching out there. I didn't really want any responsibility. So, having had Captain England, I was really conscious I didn't want any responsibility. So I did lots of commentating, went and travelled and so on.
Speaker 2:But I think when you've got that love and passion inside of you for cricket but also for people and for the game, I think coaching was always probably going to be on the cards.
Speaker 2:For me, I think and I miss that buzz, I guess the ups and downs of it all. That's what I think as a professional sports person. That's what you thrive on and I've just gone back into it all and now experiencing it from a whole different world, which is sometimes harder because I don't have the control over games that probably I used to. But equally I love watching other people succeed at the game I love. So it's the best job and I've loved it and I've been very lucky and fortunate to to have success, but also opportunities doing it all around the world, which has, um, yeah, really been special really, and um, I I've had to, yeah, thank myself every day that I've managed to have a career now in the game and what I love. I still feel like it's a hobby, if I'm honest, but I've experienced some wonderful things even in the last three or four years that I could have only dreamt of.
Speaker 1:And how tough is it being on the sidelines during a match. When you're a coach now and you can't really impact the result in the way that you perhaps could as a player, is that really tough?
Speaker 2:You'll probably see these grey hairs just appearing on the side of my head. So, no, it is difficult because you know you and the person I am, I'm very passionate about what I do and I love what I do and I'm very competitive. That competitive edge doesn't go out of you just because you've become a coach. It probably burns even more inside of you. So, yeah, you have to really temper that.
Speaker 2:I've had to learn a lot, learn quickly that you know you've got to be quite calm on the sidelines. You can't be up and down and I've had to work really, really, really hard at that because that's not natural for me, because I'm heart on my sleeve type of person. So, yeah, I often say to the players I wish I'd have um captain like I coached, because I'm a, I'm a very different coach to what to I was a player or um a captain, and because I've experienced other coaches. You, you learn along the way and I think you learn what players need from you and they don't need someone who's up and down and inconsistent. They need someone who they can look at and and be. I guess I can't de-stress from. My job is to take the pressure off them, not to pressure, and I think that's when I sit in the dugout, when inside it's just inside it's killing me Outwardly. You've got to have your poker face and, I guess, deal with it all afterwards. But yeah, it's the best job and the worst job at times.
Speaker 1:We said it. Obviously you've had this incredible success as a coach, with winning teams in the WPL in India, the 100 in England and the WBBL in Australia. I wondered how it feels to win as a coach versus a player. It's that kind of stressful side, but do you think you can feel as much joy when you're coaching a team as you do when you're playing?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, it's no different. I think there's a lot of work that goes into coaching that no one really sees and you get to experience it for so many people. So I see the work that goes on in the club that gets us to the point where we want to win. So you're doing it for the club, you're doing it for the players, whereas I think as a player you're sort of doing it for you and your teammates. You don't necessarily think too much outside of that bubble. So it's the same, I think, what was one of my strengths as a player even if I lost a big final, I think I quite quickly moved on, and I think you have to do that If you dwell on stuff, even though if you win a big tournament, you're on to the next anyway. So it's like you're quite quickly brought back down to earth and obviously on to the next kind of project.
Speaker 1:And are you developing clearly a personal style when it comes to coaching? But can you feel that evolving as time goes by and you're gaining more experience in terms of those and, I guess, your personal values that you might be bringing to the coaching role too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's one thing that's remained very consistent through when I started coaching to even now, that there's certain things that you sort of live and die by, and and that are you and and kind of um, each team I go into, I do a presentation about. This is me, this is what I expect, and and that hasn't changed in four years and five years. So it's simple stuff, it's hard work, it's you know, be punctual, you've got to care about each other. You know there's similar values that you expect.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest and the hardest thing around coaching is just the, it's the relationships with your players and, and I think they're the, they're the most powerful things, because our job is to get the best out of each and every player and sometimes you have to have different, I guess, methods to to do that. And and that's the art of coaching, or people management, as I would call it that you've got to understand what that is for each and individual player. And and I don't think I probably appreciate that as a captain I think when you're captain, you're very much task orientated. You, you know you've got to get the job done, but equally, you've got to perform as well, and that's where I said about I wish I'd have sort of captain like a coach.
Speaker 2:I think I I understand players more, I I'm more patient I wasn't patient as a captain and I think, a really caring of of the players. So they feel that they know that and I think, um, hopefully then that gets the best out of them and I think then if you are being honest, if you build those relationships, you can have those honest conversations and they know it's coming from a good place and that's, I think, really important is that they always know that it's never a criticism, it's always observations and it's always about us being better as a team. So if that's your drive all the time, I think you shouldn't be able to go too far wrong.
Speaker 1:I was thinking that it must be quite tough to build those relationships you said it's so important, but with so many athletes and in different ways. So some of them are short term, where your head coach for just a few weeks for the franchises where you come for a few weeks, and then others you're with ecb work around the southern vipers. You're kind of there all year around. So is that that's lovely to have or is that quite a challenge to have those different relationships too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. It's been the challenge of the short tournaments and is trying to get to know the players as quickly as you can. But I think I've always said that's where you've got to be able to give time to players and, and I think, the coaches that give time and and listen to players, I think that's where you get your biggest rewards. In many ways, I think the Vipers is the hardest, the easiest job. I guess it's all year round, so you'll experience every single emotion with the players, ups and downs of a season, but you see the biggest sort of, I guess, benefits of them developing. But you have that time to really really get to know them.
Speaker 2:I guess one one thing that really helps me I'm a people's person, so I'm always gonna um get on well with people. I think, and probably that's why franchise cricket's been good for me, is that I'm I can build relationships pretty quickly. It doesn't? They kind of know where they stand with me as well, and you've got to have fun, you've got to enjoy what you do, and that's one thing I always bang on about and I will get the right people.
Speaker 2:I think part of franchise coaching is getting the right people, as I say, on the bus with you and you've got that opportunity to do that through drafts and auctions so on. So you kind of target the players you want and you know that are going to work well with you. And if you look at a lot of the teams I'm involved in, I take similar players with me because I know what I'm going to get and that moves quicker, and it really helped me in the WPL. I picked a lot of players that I'd previously knew and it meant that you could, I guess, hit the ground running, and which we did in the first year, and in that I think that was a big, big aspect to it that's really interesting.
Speaker 1:So I hadn't thought about that. But of course you are crafting and creating a team as much in terms of the draft and auction and so on to both for playing skills, but also to create a team that that works there too yeah, it's character.
Speaker 2:Characters are characters a big thing in in sport. Like some people say, why did you pick her? But you know you, you see something. You see them how they are and how they operate. You ring up people.
Speaker 2:I mean I often I call loads of people to get a kind of a background on players so you know if they're going to fit, how, how the team. Sometimes you don't have a choice. You need a left arm spinner or you need a leg spinner and you have to go for the the best skill. But often into that decision will become their character and how, how they are in teams, how they operate. Um. So yeah, there is a lot of work that goes into it again that people don't really see behind the scenes because a lot of teams just look at numbers. I don't, I don't really look at them, I look at character and then numbers and then the numbers generally back up what you want to do. So, um, but yeah, and that's the bit I love about franchise cricket is actually that pulling a team together and all the different people that it takes to make a good team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really interesting, not like Moneyball, almost, when it is all about numbers and so on, isn't it? This is the people side too. I have watched some of the coverage of WPL in India you mentioned that and the atmosphere in the ground looks extraordinary. So what is that like to experience as a player and obviously you've played out there in the past too, but now with the franchise, how does that feel? Almost in that cauldron of noise and excitement.
Speaker 2:It is like nothing I can explain really. I remember my first few games and obviously we were in Mumbai. So Mumbai, there was a lot of support for us and it was just incredible. Every game there has just been unbelievable. And I sometimes sit in the corner of the dugout and I'm just going like wow, because who could have thought 20 years ago that we'd be playing in front of these packed grounds?
Speaker 2:And I'm just sitting in the corner of a little dugout and I get the best seat in the house because I get to see the players, I get to see how they react to it all, because at times they're overwhelmed by it all, because it is it. Well, especially the first year, no one know what to expect. And, and now I see the crowd and I guess I can really look at it and go this is incredible. And even year one to year two, the support, the players, how they're recognised you can't really walk around in India now because they know who the players are and who's involved in all the teams. So, yeah, it's involved in all the teams. So, um, yeah, it's been unbelievable for for the women's game and and just close to home, you mentioned the vipers.
Speaker 1:But how exciting is it for you as a coach then to see those players progress on to play for their country, because I imagine they're young players that have come kind of right through the pathway and you've kind of had a hand in that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, that's been like another part of coaching. That is equally as special, because you know people talk about trophies and and so on as coaches, but I think you get just as much kind of pleasure seeing a. You know we've had numerous girls from the Vipers go on to play for england. I coached charlie dean when she was 11 and and now watching her go on and play for england, you know you present their caps when they play for england like they're really special moments that you've. You know you've managed to sort of watch their whole development. You know we've we've got five england players in the in the england team at the moment and I've known all of those players since they were really really young. So, yeah, it's really really lovely to watch players' development.
Speaker 1:And now some of them are playing in the tournament named after you, the Charlotte Edwards Cup. So how does that feel from your side?
Speaker 2:Well, I just did try not to say that. Then I nearly said it the 220.
Speaker 1:Cup but.
Speaker 2:I avoid saying it uh, the 220 cup, but it is a um, I avoid saying it at all costs, but um, yeah, look, I was a bit blown away when they said they wanted to name a trophy after me, you know, with the Rachel Hayley Flint trophy, and to be sort of, I guess, named in the same sort of kind of yeah, well, well, she was amazing for the game, wasn't she? And I guess sometimes I yeah feel like I'm a bit of a fraud sometimes. But yeah, to have that trophy named after me was weird, if I'm honest, at the start, because I was coaching a team and it actually put a lot of pressure on our players because they desperately wanted to win it the first year. They were desperate to win it and obviously they didn't win it and then we've won the last two. So yeah, it's been. Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 2:I go to the games and all I keep hearing is my name. All the time they're tannoyed, but it's, yeah, it's something that I'm hugely proud of and honoured to have been named after me. Really, that's quite funny.
Speaker 1:I hadn't thought about that, but hearing your name over the tonneau and seeing your name written everywhere as well, too, it's weird, isn't?
Speaker 2:it. Yeah, the players now have stopped all of that, but for the first couple of years it was quite awkward. But yeah, they've forgotten.
Speaker 1:They call it the CECc now, so we don't have to say my name. I'm not sure if you saw recently, but there was a bit of an outcry when world rugby shared some guidance on the differences in coaching men and women, and it's fair to say, but the language they use was quite misogynistic in its approach. They it's been taken down but, that said, do you think there is a difference in coaching women? Do you think there's a different approach that's needed for coaching women and girls?
Speaker 2:I don't think there's a different approach. I think there's got to be an understanding of the games are slightly different in terms of the pace of the bowling. Some of the rules are slightly different in terms of T20. We're allowed four out, the men are allowed five out, so there's just subtle differences. But I think all men should coach women because I think you'll be better coaches for coaching women because you have to.
Speaker 2:You can't just blurt stuff out randomly. They'll want to know why you're saying it, they'll want to know where that's come from, and girls are not scared to ask you why, why, why do you want me to do that? And I think it would help all coaches because you have to be really clear on your language you're using, how you go about that, and I say to all male coaches you know they should do it, because I think they'll realise one that players are really receptive. They love being coached. But equally, you have to be careful what you say, and I think that's really good for all coaches. But I love coaching with male coaches, with female coaches, and I think it's good that they have that variety within the women's game and there's so many more female coaches now within cricket, which I think is brilliant. But I always say the players want the best coach and if that's a male or if that's a female, then that's fine.
Speaker 1:It's great. Obviously we are seeing more professional female coaches and high profile coaches like you, but are we seeing enough women coming through all levels of the game? Do you think and what I guess if you were running the show? But what more might you do to bring more female coaches through?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think there's got to be the opportunities at like age group level, I think, more female. All female coaching courses I think are great, especially specifically for for women's cricket. And there is there is lots of work being done. I mean, there's been lots of work done in the hundred. But I think all I hear sometimes is, oh, the women haven't got enough experience. Well, you can't get have experience if you don't not given it. And and I think in things like the 100 and the women's domestic competition here, there should be at least one female coach on the coaching staff, because otherwise if you're not given those opportunities you're never going to probably have. They'll always say you haven't got the experience to do it. So it's yeah.
Speaker 2:So my recommendation was, in the 100 that you know, you've got three coaches in each team. One of them needs to be a female. They don't have to be the head coach, but they need to be the best female coach you can. You can find, and I think, um, I think that would really drive not only just the, the, I guess, the standard of coaching, but also the visibility. I think visibility is so important. If you don't see female coaches on the bench, it's like playing, isn't it? It's like a young girl watching the game on sky, or whatever they. They see it. They can believe it or be it, yeah. So it's the same with coaching take them up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll shout about a bit more your coaching career. Obviously, from the outside, looks like it's pretty full-on in terms of the different teams and locations around the world that you're working across the year. So how do you manage that personally? Because it does feel like you're constantly on the go and in different places.
Speaker 2:It's become a way of life.
Speaker 2:Now, if I'm honest and I think people who work with me probably can't quite grasp how invested I can be in all of these teams how invested I can be in all of these teams and I would hope, if you ask every single person in with all those teams I give the most amount of energy to them all and I can.
Speaker 2:I don't know how sustainable that is over a period of time, but all I know is I've managed to do it for the last two or three years and I actually enjoy going into different teams. I think it gives me a new lease because I think if I was with the same team the whole time, I'd be quite bored. So I think actually it's good for me and I've learned so much from all of those teams, like from Sydney to Mumbai and obviously get my break from the Vipers and going to the hundred I just feel so lucky. So I don't feel like it's work half the time, because I just really enjoy it and I love it and it's become like a way of life for me and, yeah, let's hope I can keep doing it for a while to come.
Speaker 1:Are there other coaches that are doing that too? So I kind of see you and all that you're doing. Are there other coaches, men and women, doing that level of?
Speaker 2:work.
Speaker 2:I'm probably not in the women's game quite as much, as I've taken on quite a bit, because I still run the domestic team here, which is quite a big commitment, and I think most other coaches would have probably given up their domestic team all year round and they'd just probably do three franchises, but I think I'd be bored, if I'm honest. So, no, I still do that In the men's game. The coaches, especially the franchise coaches, will do a lot of teams around the world. So, yeah, I mean, it's what we do, it's I guess, yeah, it's what we enjoy. So it's like the players, isn't it? They want to play in all these tournaments and we're just the same. We get as much, you know, excitement from being involved as the players. So, yeah, it's been great. And could I have only, as I said like three or four years ago, to think that we've got all these tournaments now and we're involved in them all is absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1:It is incredible, isn't it? And I think just that potential for professional female players now and it's not all about the money, but my goodness, the money, so almost that potential to earn whatever a million dollars a year If you're playing across your country and the WPL and WBBL and the 100 as well, there really is, and that's a remarkable shift, isn't it, From when we were excited about £20,000 a year or whatever early contracts to where we are now. Do you think that that will change the culture of the women's game and how the players are?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I sat in that room in India when the first WPL auction and I don't think I've ever been so nervous because I just didn't know what to expect. And when Ritchie's name got pulled out at 340,000, I thought the game changed instantly. Then it changed and I think it was quite a massive moment within the women's game. And you're right, these players now you kind of I sit with a massive smile on my face saying this. But who would have thought three or four years ago people would be saying that cricket's going to be one of the highest paid women's sports in in the world? No, I don't think there'd be many sat here. They've been going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the footballers they'll, they'll earn loads of money. But to think some of our cricketers are the best paid players in in female sport in this country, I think, with the um, the growth to earn even more, more, and the hundreds going up year on year and the other opportunities around the world, it is truly special. So, yeah, and I think of course it's going to change the game, but hopefully it doesn't change the players and how they go about things, and I think that's part of our jobs, isn't it? To keep everyone quite grounded and level and so on. So, yeah, I think there's a big responsibility within the game to maybe look after the players and we keep driving the game forward.
Speaker 1:You talked a lot about, I guess, the fantastic varied path of coaching that you have at the moment With international coaching and I do know I have listened to your interviews and I know this path of coaching that you have at the moment Would international coaching and I do know I have listened to your interviews and I know this is a question that you're asked a lot, but I'm going to ask it anyway but is that something in the future? And obviously cricket is in the Olympic Games in LA for 2028. So can it? Might that be a temptation?
Speaker 2:too. Yeah, I mean, I've been very open about how I feel about international cricket. I'm no different to a player. I've got ambitions to coach at the highest level, and for me, that is the highest level. So, yeah, and those type of tournaments are kind of, I guess, things that you want to be part of. So, absolutely, I want to coach internationally and that's something that, yeah, I've not hidden, but I'm I am absolutely loving what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:But I do feel there will be a shelf life for this type of role as well, and I guess the next step is international cricket. So that's what I'll be looking at. But you know, they'd have to be the right team at the right stage of where they're at, and I guess, with the Olympics around the corner, it's a. That's a big um, big carrot, isn't it to? To be a part of something like that? Which, um, I wasn't part of the Commonwealth in 2022, was it? Um? I don't remember when that was um, and so, yeah, you know you want to. You want to play the game and coach the game at the highest level and in the big competitions and obviously cricket.
Speaker 1:You talk about kind of nations and coaching nations. Cricket in england, australia and india is really thriving thanks to the success of franchises but also those domestic leagues. Do you feel there is a bit of a risk that as those nations move so far ahead we don't really see that international competition with other cricket playing nations like South Africa, west Indies, new Zealand and I guess I'd say this in cricket? It's a similar conversation that we have in rugby and in other sports too.
Speaker 2:I think it's my biggest concern for the game is where the international cricket goes really, because the domestic and the franchise cricket is thriving for women's cricket domestic and the franchise cricket is thriving for women's cricket and and I don't see that same growth in the international game, which is is yeah, I guess upsets me probably more than anything when you see players retiring at the age of 30 because they want to pursue more franchise cricket, because they're being paid nothing to play for their international team. So I think it's something we desperately need to look at because we want, we want international cricket to be strong. We want that to. That's the global game. That's where probably is going to get as much as much profile from the world cup. So we don't want them to be a three-team race, do we?
Speaker 2:And I think that's that's the concern moving forward. So I really hope a lot of money is invested into into all countries to to keep developing, making sure they've got, you know, developing programs in place. And because that's the biggest concern is a lot of the top teams have got like a tours under 19 teams and so on, but a lot of the they don't. Some of the other teams don't even have a domestic structure, professional domestic structure. So that would need need to happen to keep those teams competing with the likes of England, australia and India, which, if you look at where their domestic cricket's at it's very strong and it's thriving at the moment. So, yeah, I think it's going to be an area of concern moving forward.
Speaker 1:It's tough, isn't it? I say I'll quote that more to the rugby side but where you don't want to hold back the countries that are doing so well either. You want to bring the others on, but you don't want to limit those that are having amazing success and making investment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also you don't want to have international series that are not competitive, Because you know all these games are now going on TV because obviously Australia, India and England they cover all games now and the last thing you want to do is turn on the TV and it just be a one-sided match all the time, which you know, recently against Pakistan that was the case and we've got to make sure that these international series are really competitive. But that's going to take time for these countries to actually have a domestic program, develop those young players, but I think the under 19. The introduction of the under 19 world cups, I think being really is an important step for the icc that they're now recognizing that age group. So therefore you will develop players for those tournaments and and hopefully those players will have a platform to then go on and play for their, their international teams and just finally.
Speaker 1:Obviously, you've achieved so much in your playing career and now in your coaching career, and clearly with the tournament named after you too, but what do you hope that your legacy will be in the sport as you look back? What would you like it to be?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, I haven't really thought about that. I guess someone who, who loved the game, who, I guess, wanted the game to to keep keep thriving and and keep improving all the time, and I think that's something that's really. You know, ever since I've stopped the game, I've wanted the game to keep growing and getting better and and, yeah, and hopefully that legacy lives on, that we, you know, we keep enjoying it. We never forget the past and we always, I guess, are excited about the future, because I think that's the most important thing now and we all look forward and it's, I think, a really, really bright future ahead.
Speaker 1:I loved talking to Charlotte. Is there any wonder she's had such success as a player and now as a coach? If you'd like to hear from more trailblazers like Charlotte, there are over 180 episodes of Game Changers podcast that are free to listen to on all platforms or from our website at fearlesswomencouk. Other cricketing guests have included players like Ebony Rainford, brent and Issa Guha, umpire Sue Redfern and cricket broadcaster Ellie Oldroyd. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the women's sport collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over seven and a half thousand members from across the world, so do come and join us.
Speaker 1:The whole of my book game on the unstoppable rise of's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thank you once again to Sport England for supporting the Game Changers with a National Lottery Award and to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such a fantastic job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my fabulous colleague at Fearless Women, kate Hannan. You can find the Game Changers wherever you listen to podcasts, and please follow us now, so you don't miss out on future episodes. Do come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on LinkedIn and Instagram at Sue Anstis the Game Changers fearless women in sport.
