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The Game Changers
In this award-winning podcast Sue Anstiss talks to trailblazers in women sport. These are the individuals who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. Along with openly sharing their historic careers, what drives them and how they’ve dealt with tough challenges, each episode explores key issues for equality in sport and beyond.
We’re incredibly grateful to Sport England who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award.
You can find out about all the guests at https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers Fearless Women in Sport
The Game Changers
Catie Munnings: Driving change in motorsports
What drives one of Britain's top rally drivers to push the limits on and off the track?
In today's episode of The Game Changers we hear from Catie Munnings one of Britain’s most successful racing talents, a rally driver, Red Bull sponsored athlete and TV presenter who now competes in Extreme E - a radical, all electric off-road racing series in the most remote corners of the planet impacted by climate change.
Catie she shares her remarkable journey from sporty teenager to a trailblazing figure in motorsport, along with her unique, motorsport-centric upbringing that set the stage for her rapid ascent in rally racing. From perfecting handbrake turns at just 13 to extraordinary achievements in rally driving and Extreme E racing, Catie’s story is a testament to passion and perseverance.
Catie shares the pivotal role her family has played in her career and the mental toughness required to excel in rally driving's high-stakes environment. We hear about the physical demands rally driving imposes and how motorsport legend Michèle Mouton provided inspired Catie as a young driver.
Catie and I explore the broader landscape for women across motorsport, discussing initiatives that are levelling the playing field, and Catie provides an insider's perspective on E Extreme’s commitment to gender equality, with mixed-gender teams racing in remote, environmentally affected locations.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partner, sport England, who support the game changers through a national lottery award. My guest today is one of Britain's most successful racing talents rally driver and Red Bull sponsored Catie, Munnings. Catie shot to fame in 2016 after she became the first Briton to win a European rally title for 49 years after winning the FIA European Rally Championships ladies trophy. In addition to her racing exploits, Catie launched a successful TV career as the host of a CBB show, Catie's Amazing Machines, which introduced young children to some of the biggest and fastest machines in the world.
Sue Anstiss:From traditional rally driving, Catie's moved on to compete in an exciting new format Extreme E, a radical all-electric off-road racing series in the most remote corners of the planet impacted by climate change. Eight teams consisting of one male and one female driver racing to highlight global issues and test new emerging . C atie is widely regarded as one of the fastest drivers in Xtreme E. In fact, her recent performance in Saudi Arabia saw her amongst the quickest drivers overall. Earlier this year, Catie also became the first person to have driven a Formula E and Extreme E car, as well as pilot an E-race boat All championships under the electric 360 umbrella. So, Catie, we're obviously going to talk a lot about driving in a moment, but can we start with other sports? I believe you were very good at athletics growing up, so pentathlon and netball, so how were those sports a part of your life?
Catie Munnings:Oh, I absolutely loved them. I was just really competitive as a personality. You know anything. I was used to be awful well, it still is to play board games with me. But yeah, when I was growing up, I think sport at school was one of my favourite things. I was really into netball. I think we came second in national champs when I was at school. So that was my first kind of taste of strategy. And when I was at school, so that was my first kind of taste of strategy and working towards a bigger kind of championship rather than just low level kind of sports. That really gave me a taste for competition and for progress.
Catie Munnings:And then, when I was a bit older, I really got into athletics. That was about the time when Jessica Ennis was doing the London 2012 Olympics and she was like my biggest idol when I was growing up. So I started doing the pentathlon, um, and I had a coach. And then, um, yeah, I remember actually I didn't get a ticket to go to the olympics but, um, I managed to sneak into the olympic stadium. I managed to get like a ticket for handball and my sister was in there with someone else, but they weren't really interested in the olympics, so they came out and then I used their ticket to go and I think crossing the line of the 200 or something like that, and you know I remember that moment forever. Oh wow, that's amazing.
Sue Anstiss:Amazing to hear. And what position do you play in netball? I always like to get those netball questions in oh, it's goal shooter. Oh, good, good, yeah. And it was your home life and your family life that really initiated that love of driving. So can you tell us how that all began? Yeah, I had.
Catie Munnings:To me it was quite normal as an upbringing, but it definitely wasn't normal looking back on it now. My parents ran like a motorsport entertainment company so we used to have stag do's at the house every Saturday and they had some fields and a bit of woodland and so stuff like quad biking and pilots, buggies, archery, all of that stuff would be going on and I'd jump on quad bikes and help. My dad set up the fields at 6am every Saturday morning when I was probably about 10 until I was about 18. So I just was always driving things and old cars in the fields and my dad used to be a rally driver as well, so he was an instructor at some rally schools, so I'd go to work with him and sit in the passenger side of his car. So yeah, it was very unconventional but it was completely normal to me and it was never something that I considered, you know, a career in or thought that there would be any opportunities. It was just purely a complete love for it, you know.
Sue Anstiss:I remember you did your first handbrake turn at just 13. So how did you then progress from having fun on quad bikes and old cars and your family's farm to actually racing? What was that transition?
Catie Munnings:Well, when I was, I think, 14, I started competing, so I was driving from, you know, as soon as I could reach the pedals on my dad's lap, basically. But, um, when I was 14, in our local airfield the local motor club ran grass auto testing, which is is perfect for anyone wanting to get into motorsport, because it's kind of car control skills, but a very grassroots level. So I think you paid five pounds every other week and you could take any car, so. So people would get cars from scrapyards or whatever and it could be a road car and you just go to your local motor club. For us it was at the airfield and it was on grass.
Catie Munnings:Someone sets up a few different slalom courses with poles and then, yeah, it's stuff like reverse flicks, all the kind of stunts you see in movies, so handbrake town, but they run a junior level. So that was quite competitive and I started doing that when I was 14 and it was mainly because where we lived was very remote and the lanes used to get really icy and my dad was thinking about us driving ourselves to school when we turned 17 and he basically said that he didn't want us under steering into a ditch because we didn't know how to handle it. So that was why he wanted us to get a bit of car knowledge behind our backs. And yeah, I just I fell in love with that. I was massively competitive person and my sister was doing it at the same time. It was really funny because she's not competitive at all, but she was really good at it and I always wonder what she would have done if she'd have kept going in sport as well.
Sue Anstiss:And when did you actually get behind the steering wheel of a rally car itself?
Catie Munnings:Well, that was quite a unique opportunity because I'd been competing in grass water testing for quite a while and then we were spectating on a round of the European Rally Championship in Belgium and I, just by chance, we got speaking to some of the organisers who were talking about a lack of women in sport and especially in rally, and they were trying to open up more doors, and they said that there was a kind of rookie test going on with Peugeot later in the year and I managed to get an invite to it. But I'd never driven a rally car before and I turned up to the test and it was like there was the current European champions there, the French champions, and it was in Mont Blanc. So it was a really steep mountainside, tiny, narrow gravel track and it was bearing in mind I'm 17 at the time, so I'm only just driving on the road and this car was left-hand drives, which already feels really alien. It was a sequential gearbox and you know it was a proper kind of rally car that they run in the junior level of the world championship, and I remember just being like I don't even know if I have got the clutch control to pull away in this and I ended up sitting next to the French champion at the time and he was giving me some lessons and I sat next to him while he was driving me and I was absolutely blown away with what he was doing. And then he said, right, your turn. And I did a couple of laps on the road and I was blown away and he said, okay, that was in road mode, we put it in rally mode now. I wasn't even in the full power.
Catie Munnings:So I just remember that moment it was. It was I couldn't imagine myself driving like how he was driving, and it was that challenge of wondering if I could do that. That was what really gave me the bug, I think, because I was so impressed with I just thought we were crashing all the time when I sat next to him. So for me it was like just wanting to know if I could hone my skills to be able to do that. So I managed then to stay with Peugeot and get a bit of support from Peugeot UK and some local sponsors. I never had the budget to do it properly, though, to be honest with you, I'd always sort of take the tires off my teammate's car that were going in the bin for him. They'd go on my car as new when I was doing the championship. But it was just about getting the experience for me and, yeah, I then went into the European Championship for about four years, I think, with Persia.
Sue Anstiss:That's amazing, isn't it? And was it scary when you say that, how you went up that next into the next gears, as it were? Were you scared the first time you were there?
Catie Munnings:time you were there. Was it just exhilaration? Can you remember how you felt? Yeah, and I think it was. I think it was that naivety. You know, I was 17. I didn't really know the fear kind of side of stuff, so I think for me it was probably a bit of ignorance on what could go wrong, but I was more just impressed rather than I and I had some massive crashes when I was starting out.
Catie Munnings:Everyone does in rally, you know, because you're learning and it's not like a sport where you make a mistake and there's a bit of, you know, runoff room or wiggle weight. You know, as you're learning, that the consequences are massive in rally you're competing on such narrow roads and I've hit and crashed into the side of houses, I've hit trees. I've hit, you know, I took out an electricity pylon. Um, I had some massive crashes in my early days but I never felt fear with it. I don't know why. I think it's. I think if I was a co-driver I would have done, but I think the fact that I had the steering wheel and the pedals in my control, I always felt like I was in control, if you know what I mean. So I never thought I'd drive out of my limits, which obviously I did all the time, because the red mist comes down and you do, but it was never something that really helped me back. I don't think, and I love the.
Catie Munnings:It's just a fabulous story, isn't it For someone that is this amazing driver and actually I think I told everyone for about five years I did pass first time because I'm so sorry I hadn't. Yeah, I think what actually happened was I was sat with the driving instructor. He said, no, obviously you can drive, but I do think you did pull out on a bus at the roundabout and I was like, well, he didn't hit the bus, he was going slowly. I pulled out. You know, to me it was perfectly fine. And he said look, I'm gonna have to fail you, but obviously I can tell you, but you can drive, but that is a big no-no on my checklist. So I had to go back and do it again, but I was very nervous doing that. I think it is actually very stressful. It's a driving test absolutely.
Sue Anstiss:it's good to hear and it's good to share with other young people that might not be passing too. As I said in the introduction, you went on to win a rally championship at just 19. And you also placed fourth, I think, overall for men and women. The following year and throughout your career, it seems that you always talked about this most promising young talent from the UK, so did that bring added pressure for you to perform? Do you think there's more people looking at you in that way?
Catie Munnings:I think, when I started I, we decided to go straight into the European Rally Championship because cost-wise, compared to the British Championship, it was pretty similar but the exposure was so much bigger in Europe. Obviously I think the series was covered by Eurosport and I saw it as an opportunity to compete against the best in Europe, you know, because it's a higher standard. So obviously I'm a beginner but I thought I would learn faster against against the top drivers, which obviously came'm a beginner but I thought I would learn faster against the top drivers, which obviously came with a lot more pressure, because I think I had a lot more eyes on it. You know, as a young girl that never done anything before going straight into the European Championship and I think the first year, it was very eye-opening to me to gain a thick skin, you know, when you read the comments online. And the difficulty was I was one of the only females really there was a few of us but, especially with no experience, I was one of the only ones that had gone straight into the European Championship and all the guys I guess because there was more guys, there wasn't so many eyes on the guys that were at the beginning that are learning, whereas I feel like when I came in I didn't really have the space to learn and have the beginner stage because people were expecting to see results instantly. So that was quite you know.
Catie Munnings:It's important for me then to have a lot of family support and and my kind of squad around me. That kept me positive, because I think the first year was quite tough with that initiation. And then when I learned to just, you know, feed back off my co-driver and the people around me and my team and and judge my progress off that rather than what other people are saying I kind of grew quite thick skin to it and wasn't bothered by it anymore. But I remember at the beginning it was a massive shock to me because I was like no, I haven't done anything. How can people expect me to be going in and being the fastest here? But I think there was definitely more eyes on because I was one of the only females doing it.
Sue Anstiss:And you mentioned your family support there. So how important have they been, have they been? And I love on your Instagram, like your sister and your it's almost like that people with you in the different venues and things. How important has that been to have that support around you. What part have they played.
Catie Munnings:It's been massive for me. I think I've always been in a kind of family business, if you know what I mean. When I was helping my parents with their company, it was always very much a family affair, and I think when I started in motorsport it was as well. My mum and dad would come with me. You know we'd take the trailer with the rally car when I was starting and it would be very much a joint effort and I wouldn't have been able to even start without them. So I really wanted to continue that when I moved into different championships as well.
Catie Munnings:So I think my dad's pretty much been to all of my races that I've ever done in different disciplines, and you know he started off as a driver coach. We now have arguments as to who is the coach and who's being taught, but and yeah, he is a massive support to me and I really value that. I think, especially when you're traveling in different countries and touch wood, nothing goes wrong, but when it does, you know, motorsport is a dangerous sport, so it's really important, I think, to have a kind of support unit around you as well that can be there and help you pick up the pieces.
Sue Anstiss:And what is it that makes it a great rally driver? So how much is it about your skill as a driver which clearly have versus physical fitness, and then the mental skills, the ability to stay calm and make those decisions under kind of pressured moments?
Catie Munnings:I think a lot of it is the mental side. I I think that we're racing, especially with Extreme E we're racing in locations that haven't been raced before. So we'll turn up to the middle of the Saudi Arabian desert and it's a track that hasn't really been tested. It's not like circuit racing. You know where they have a full runoff area and they've got all of the different. You know safety measures in place. Obviously we do in our own way, but it's very much more than to drive a judgment. You know massive jumps off sand dunes and over rock crawls in Greenland and when you're going into practice for the first time, often I sit on the start line thinking I have no idea how I'm going to get around the course in one piece. I have no idea what speed to take that jump, I have no idea how to get over those rocks and it's something that really requires quite a lot of mental strength, I think, and obviously a support unit around you. I'm really good friends with my teammates, so we talk about everything and we really go into it together and I think that makes a big difference to me. But I think the mental side of that is really important and I think also the resilience if you have a crash. But then you've got to be back on pace the next day and it's very hard to do that.
Catie Munnings:I think there and it's very hard to do that, I think there's a number of things that come into it. Obviously it's massively expensive. So if you're in motorsport when I was starting out, obviously finding my own sponsorship, most of the time I'd be driving with the thought that I can't make a mistake because I can't afford to pay the insurance payout or I won't be at the next race. And nowadays, obviously with racing at a higher level, it is very expensive. So every time you have a crash it is mind-blowing numbers. And then you've got to kind of separate that from your performance. Because if you go out the next day thinking about that or have the fear in your mind of crashing, then you're, you know, way back at the end at the back of the pack. So you have to have um, one of the rally drivers. After I had a big crash when I was younger, he told me to have a goldfish memory. So that always um, kind of is something that I try to take with me if I've had a bad day in a rally or race. Then to come back the next day and and you have to kind of just shut it off completely, and I think that that's the hardest, one of the hardest things mentally, that it takes some time to get your head around.
Catie Munnings:Um, the physical side is also quite a lot. It's not the same as when you think of racing like formula one, because we're in an enclosed cockpit, so we don't have the same sort of G-forces that they have. But we have our own problems, as it were. We've got massive jumps, massive impacts to take, especially our backs. We have to do a lot of training around our posture to make sure that we're strong enough to take it and also to prevent injury. But also in terms of the concentration side, we have to be very fit to be able to keep that going at a level where we're competing in cockpits that are 60 degrees and um, with, you know, long days in the sun, and then we've got to have the stamina to be sharp when we need to be and one of my favorite sports documentaries from recent years is queen of speed, okay, the extraordinary story of michelle mutant, and I've just blown away by all she achieved and despite the sexism in the sport at the time, the lovely archive footage, and it is extraordinary.
Sue Anstiss:So can you tell us a little bit more about, I guess, her and her story and whether that has inspired you personally, seeing a woman that had such success?
Catie Munnings:definitely, um, and she was. When I was competing in the European Championship she was the safety delegate, so she'd be going around in the start and she'd be telling all in the car at the start and she'd be telling all the fans they're standing in dangerous places and yeah, she's a real powerhouse. Um, she definitely carved the way, I think, for women in off-road motorsport and I think to some extent as well on track, because there were so few women that were competing at the top level. So to have any kind of role model in motorsport was huge and to see what she did in those cars in that era, with the conditions that they raced in, is unbelievable and I love that.
Catie Munnings:She always just said that she loved driving. For her it wasn't necessarily about the competition, but she just loved the feeling of driving and improving and that's something that I can completely relate to, because there's so much that's out of our control, you know, with our competitors and the development, the speed of others, but if you keep that, pure enjoyment I think. But she really had the whole way through her career. That's what kind of powers you through. So, yeah, I was, I was very starstruck when I first met her, but she was definitely, I think, the biggest inspiration that I had when I was growing up in motorsport.
Sue Anstiss:I love it. She's very cool, so I just kind of like her attitude very blase and, yeah, fantastic. You've been racing in Xtreme E for the Andretti team since the series began in 2021, alongside Swedish rally driver Timmy Hansen. So for those that don't necessarily know, can you share a little bit more about Xtreme E and its ambitions?
Catie Munnings:Yeah, absolutely so. When I first heard about the championship it sounded like something from a movie. I never thought it would take off. To be honest with you, it was in lockdown that I heard about it. So I'm sort of sat at home and I got a call and they said we're going to be creating an electric off-road motorsport championship where we're going to race in places that are hardly touched by humanity but have had massive effects of climate change. So places like the Greenland ice sheet.
Catie Munnings:We've raced Saudi Arabian desert, some of the beaches in Senegal, so it's basically racing with the purpose of raising awareness about each location that we go to. So we have an amazing scientific committee. It's made up some by some of the the professors from Oxford and Cambridge and some of the top marine biologists in the world, and we go to locations that have been affected by climate change and I think the organizers take on boards from the scientists some of the issues that the areas are facing and then we create legacy programs. So it's not a normal race week for us. We'll go a week before and two or three days we'll probably spend with the scientists and local charities, organizations, places that are giving back, I guess, and some of the sponsorship from the championship then goes into those programs and has kind of long lasting, you know, multi-year programs. So it was really nice for me to see that that actually happened when I first started racing, because it was quite a selfish sport before then. You know, it was something that I did just for myself but didn't necessarily feel like it was giving that much back.
Catie Munnings:And then suddenly we're racing in places where it's changing the landscape of the beaches in Saudi Arabia for the Red Sea Turf population and planting a million mangroves off the coast of Senegal, in Africa.
Catie Munnings:And when you go to those places and then you speak to the local people and you hear the differences actually making to their livelihoods, you know in terms of income, in terms of better living conditions, and you hear, for the scientists as well, how important it is to have a broader voice, because they say they publish research papers and it only gets however many views. And then suddenly, when it's put into the voice that sport has on itv or wherever it's played, people that were not looking for that information suddenly learn a lot as well as watching the motorsport. So it was the perfect combination really, um, for something different, and I think that it had to be really high level racing in order to keep the fans and have that attraction and the viewers in the first place. But when I switch to the scientists and find out the difference that it's actually making for them and their research papers and opening up doors for them, it really, you know, you feel like you're actually achieving something pretty big there that's fantastic, isn't it a real win-win?
Sue Anstiss:and how different is it for you as a driver of the extreme the electric car versus a traditional combustion engine of a rally car? What's the difference like as a driver?
Catie Munnings:it's not as much as I thought it would be. So when I first saw the cars in real life, I'd actually already signed with Andretti and we went to our first test and I remember seeing how big it looks in the garage and I thought how am I going to drive that? You know it looks like a tank, absolutely massive. But when you start to drive it it felt very similar to a rally car that I've driven before quite heavy, so you obviously have to bear that in mind. It's quite top heavy so they have a tendency to tip and roll. So a lot of the driving style was around trying to set it up, to keep it planted so that you don't have the the kind of that roll rate that you have um in off-road conditions. You know, if you catch a rut or an angle at a wrong um direction then it's very easy to flip and I think you probably have seen some of the big crashes we've had in the past.
Catie Munnings:So for us it was also from the electric side. It was obviously an instant torque. It was very fast off the off the start line. There's no gears, so it's kind of easier to drive in a way, because we have less to do. We don't have a clutch, we don't have gears to worry about, the power's there instantly where we want it. But we had to readjust how we feel the car. I think because you know in the past, when you lock wheels, when you're braking hard is you can hear it because there's something going on in the gearbox and you get different sensations, whereas now, with the powertrain that we had, you had to feel a lot more through the seat because some of those tools and sensors had kind of gone away when we switched to electric. So after after a couple of races, I think you're up to.
Catie Munnings:But I think for anyone coming into a new car like that, there's obviously an adjustment period. And yeah it was. But for the first season nobody knew what was going to happen. You know we were racing in places with big drops, with water splashes, with all of this different stuff and we were testing this brand new technology. Obviously the heat as well. We're trying to keep the batteries cool between sessions. So we had different cooling techniques and we have to adjust the power levels based on how much we thought the battery would degrade during the day. So there was a lot from an engineering side that went into the first seasons and developing that with the championship. But, yeah, it's very exciting.
Catie Munnings:I think it's now up to a level which is, you know, it's incredibly competitive across the paddock now and it's increased so much over the last few years, which I think is amazing for women in motorsport, because when we first started out and it still is that each team has a male and a female driver in the team. But obviously when the teams were selecting their drivers, it's very easy to find eight really high level male drivers in the world because there's been so many more men in motorsport in the past. So we had Sebastian Loeb, who's however many time world rally champion Jenson Button was on the grid, and then suddenly they had to find eight female or nine female drivers and there was women that hadn't been competing for a few years that they brought back, and half of the grid I don't think would have been competing that year if they didn't have that opportunity. So it was a very steep learning curve, I think, for us, because we hadn't had the amount of exposure and testing time and everything else that these guys have had in their professional careers, and so actually it became the difference in the results was more down to the females than the males, and a lot of the development then was pushed into making the females fast, because if you had a quick girl then you know you're doing really, really well, because all the guys were already on a very similar level. So it was really interesting.
Catie Munnings:Actually they did a study to show the progress of the females from the first season to now and I think it's it's almost flipped. I think there's some from our last race in Saudi Arabia. We kind of do off this sector in in the race course, where we have a very special super sector where we get extra championship points for being the fastest, and I think now some of the females are actually faster than males for the first time. So it's really yeah. In the last few years it's increased massively and that's literally just down to having the same access to engineers, to testing, to the racing conditions, all of the things that you think might be taken for granted. But actually in motorsport, where it's so expensive to do any testing and progress and and training as you're coming up through the rankings is definitely something that you know is not equal across the paddock. So to have that opportunity now on a professional level has really made a difference it is fantastic to see, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss:and I it does feel like, as I watch from the outside, almost that approach to gender equality is really at the core of everything. And we see some sports, don't we, where they put a woman or two women in a team, or, but actually because it is absolutely equal male, female, that that feels so very different. And then I think that research you said I was reading into it but there's a like a 26% improvement, I think, in women's performance from that first series to now because, as you said, they have had that same opportunity, same seat time, access to engineers. So do you think would that be the same in other motorsports if women had that same opportunity access? Is it that clearly feels that that's what's being demonstrated here?
Catie Munnings:I definitely think so and I think it's. It's something where I'm massively for females and males being able to compete next to each other in motorsport, especially in off-road. Where we're talking about the physical side is really it's not that hard to drive the cars. As long as your power steering is working and everything, then it's not a massive physical element. It's more an experience level. It's a mental game of judging the speed and having that edge, but it's definitely not something where I get out of the car and feel like I've had a massive workout and I'm suffering compared to my teammate. I think the women are definitely capable of it and I'm massively for keeping it that way, that we compete against the men. I've always done it the whole way.
Catie Munnings:Even when I was in the European Championship and there was ladies' trophies, I'd always wanted to be compared to the fastest driver, whether that is a male or a female, because I never saw a reason of why I couldn't be there. And I think in other forms of motorsport as well, that's really starting to come through, and I think opportunities where yes, okay, there's things like the F1 Academy where there's seats for females, and I think there's a big argument for if that championship wasn't there, then those females might not have the support to be racing at all. So, yes, we want to give them the support to get them to a level so that hopefully then they can go back into mixed motorsport at the top level. But I'd really love to see, when that happens, how far women can go, because I think that these opportunities in the past there has been some opportunities, but there's never been okay. Here's a drive for a really fast female. We've got everything all the testing you need, all the budget, you need everything that you need that's going to be the same as the guy that's doing it the best in motorsport.
Catie Munnings:I don't think there's ever been something like that and it's not necessarily a gender thing.
Catie Munnings:I think it's because you've got to look right back to grassroots levels. I mean, I worked with Susie Wolfe when she started her there To Be Different campaign on this and then now with girls on track, and we used to go around to schools and we'd say put your hands up if you want to be a racing driver, and most of them would say what? I didn't think you could be, because when I watch Formula One, it's only men. So when you're limiting it from that early on. I think that you don't have enough girls coming into karting or from the engineering side, whatever it might be in motorsport, and then of course, you know, not all the guys that start end up filtering through to the top. So of course, if you've got fewer levels of females, it's even harder to make it to the top. So I think it has to really start from quite a low level and it will take a long time to filter through all the way up to the top, to have the women rise to the top of Formula One as well.
Sue Anstiss:Can you imagine if you had an F1, every team had to have a male and female driver? How extraordinary that would be? There you are, I've solved it. There you go. We'll just make that happen Exactly. We are seeing much more. I mean, you mentioned the F1 Academy and obviously Girls on Track, and those initiatives are more than equal, evolving as an entity as well. So these new initiatives, it feels like people are suddenly waking up to the disparity that's there, although obviously we have been talking about it for years and years. So do you feel like in the last few years there is this big shift and if so why do you feel now that we're talking about it more definitely?
Catie Munnings:there has been. I think it's an amazing time to be a female in motorsport, especially for the next generation that are coming in. You know the opportunities with the F1 academy and and brands like Charlotte Tilbury and people like that coming on board. I remember when I first started in rally and I tried to get female brand sponsorship. It was so hard because you'd speak to them and they'd say, yeah, but there's no female following in motorsports. So who are we selling to? And I kind of saw it as the opposite. I was thinking this is a real opportunity, yeah, and now it seems to be that it's come around that way. So I think that the future is looking really bright.
Catie Munnings:But I think, from a championship side and what Extreme E did was very clever, because it has to be from a sporting side that you have to have an incentive to have a female in the team, because they're, all you know, massive companies. You know, when you look at Formula One, they're not just there to run around, they want to win. And so I think, with Extreme E putting it so that there was no male result and there was no female result. It completely took out the element of having a female in the team just for the media and to say, oh, you know, I'm a woman in motorsport, I'll do all the media interviews and my teammate can do all the hot lap. It suddenly became actually we really need to make these females fast, because then we can win races. So I think they were very clever the way that they did it.
Catie Munnings:And I actually speak to different championships now in off-road that are wanting to have more women involved and saying how do we do it? How do we incentivize teams to have women? And I'm thinking well, you've got to. You know you've got to fit it into the sporting program somehow as a team, because otherwise I think you know it will just happen too slowly. You've got to put pressure on them to to make a change that will benefit their results.
Sue Anstiss:It's a fantastic example, isn't it? For other, for other motorsports, for other sports too, of changing the ecosystem of the sport itself to truly make it equal, rather than relying on people to do what they might know to be right. But over time, as you say, it will just take too long to change.
Catie Munnings:And the nice thing about it is I never just want to be a token female in a race. What I actually love and I think it's proven since the last kind of four years is that the females are there because they're now the top drivers. You know there's females winning races outright over the men that have got so much more experience in motorsport. But because we've all got the same experience in this car and on this surface it highlights them as profiles. And now there's actually been other opportunities and other championships that have opened up to the women that are at the top of their game because they see actually, no, that's a really fast driver. So there's been different drives open up for for some of us in in other areas that have no incentives for females in motorsport, but because we've been recognized and our kind of performances have been highlighted on a big stage against, you know, top drivers in the world and I mentioned in the introduction that you've also become the first person to drive uh E and Extreme E and Pilot and E1 race boats.
Sue Anstiss:So once you're a brilliant driver, what is that crossover for drivers in different formats? Is it not just jumping a boat and that's easy, but obviously you've got that skill set and that ability to drive.
Catie Munnings:It is, and I think it's, as I said earlier, quite a mental thing when you, when you know how to get the edge out of a vehicle and a machine and you know what what takes, what it takes to be competitive at a high level in one discipline. It's actually very similar in different disciplines, although I will say I've literally just come off the back of an e1 race this weekend in a boat. We were in porto benudes and it was so rough. So me and timmy are actually teammates in e1 as well. It was really funny because when the the program came about, we had to do some training on a lake and and I at first we were offered it because it was kind of the same team, um as extreme e, that were running the championship and they said does anyone want to be a pilot in this series? And I said well, no, because I'm not a powerboat racer. It'll be really embarrassing. I'll just run around at the back. I don't know what I'm doing. But Timmy said I'll come and have a go um, and when he came back from his training he said Catie, you've got to go and do it. It's so similar. As soon as you can feel the water and the grip of the water, it's the same. We've got a steering wheel, we've got a throttle pedal. He said then you're racing. And I thought, okay, I'll go and give it a go and it's all, and the waves and everything like that, because it's definitely not that similar.
Catie Munnings:So, yeah, it's a new challenge for us at the minute to be racing on water, but I think it's.
Catie Munnings:I do genuinely believe that motorsport is so advanced the way that we study data, the way that we analyze our performance together and the stuff that we say with the engineers is so transferable into a different discipline that we come at it with a really analytical eye, I think, compared to probably most powerboat racing championships, where it's a lot more on feeling. So it's really interesting to now combine those two worlds and work with them and learn their experience of the water, because we're bringing tools and kind of data that they don't normally use in in the water world and they're giving us a lot more insight into how to read the waves and how to actually react to them. So that's a new challenge for me at the minute, but it's definitely something where I think if I just looked at it on paper, I would never think I was qualified to do it. And here we are. We're on the back of two podiums against some of the best powerboat races in the world, so I think it's definitely achievable if you put yourself out there no-transcript very different really.
Catie Munnings:It's kind of, I guess, like saying to like a dressage rider, would you go and do the grand national, if you know what I mean. I think on paper, yes, they probably look the same, but when you get into motorsport you realize that if you want to have done formula one, you've got to be karting from when you're eight years old and going up through the ranks. I've probably been karting four times in my life, so I think I'm the best qualified. There's some amazing girls that are coming up through the ranks that will have a go at that, but for me it's not something. I mean, I've done track days and with cars and I've been on circuits.
Catie Munnings:For me it's not where my passion is, because I just love. I love the feeling of being off-road and having the challenges that we have with jumps, with the conditions changing all the time, sliding on gravel, those sorts of things. I don't think you get from circuit racing. It's a lot more down to the you know, perfect laps, every single lap, it's all exactly the same. Conditions are the same and I think it's a lot more about the technical kind of data side with your engineers, which we still have a lot in off-road. But in off-road, I think it's a lot more spontaneous and it's a lot more relying on your instincts as a driver, which is where my sort of passion is.
Sue Anstiss:So so yeah, maybe in another lifetime, but I think for now no, and motorsport is such an expensive sport to be involved in as well, and especially in that Formula One. There's that kind of idea that money buys talent and I, you know, I'm a Drive to Survive fan. So the kind of Lawrence Stroll story of a son coming through because his dad bought the team. So how much do you feel that is that? Is that the case across motorsport and is that one of the reasons that we haven't seen women coming through? That it hasn't been that investment and that opportunity to get seat time?
Catie Munnings:100. You know it's one of my biggest frustrations in the sport and it has been since I very first started, and it's a lesson I think you and something you have to get over and deal with very early on in your career, because it doesn't matter what level you're competing at. When I was in the European Championship, there was competitors who's you know dad's owned oil companies or whatever, and and they're testing every single day of the year and they're able to have unlimited budgets, tires, you know, pay the best coaches in the world and and from from the driving side, even in the low levels, when you're trying to do a training day, you're talking tens of thousands, because in rallying you've got to shut public roads, you've got to get permission from the council, you've got to have fire brigade, police engineers, ambulances there. It's a really expensive sport and it's not something where you can just go and pick up a tennis racket and get to a level where you think you're competitive and then go for it yourself. It's very frustrating from that side and I've worked with mental coaches actually when I first started, who would say to me that you have to think of it like what's in your control is in your control, what's not isn't. So they said A plus B equals results. You know A is everything that you can do, so you train as much as you can with your budget and you give your everything and know that you go to the race as prepared as you can be. B is your competitors that have got all the budget in the world and you're never going to be able to affect that. So those two combined is what equals results. So just do your best and then you'll see where that gets you.
Catie Munnings:And I think you have to separate yourself from the fact that it's not a fair sport, and that happens very early on in your career from a grassroots level. And I think what I've loved about Extremely the most is the fact that it has given nine women out there. Exactly the same. We have exactly the same testing days as CAT, and the teams are pretty much equal across the board in terms of how they use those days and training. And that's what I love is that now I feel like when I line up on the start line OK, this is equal with the competitors that we've got here, and I think the results have spoken for themselves of what that's done for the drivers, but I think it is one.
Catie Munnings:Going back to the broader picture, I think it is one of my biggest frustrations. I would love to see more initiatives open up with real opportunities. You know, more competitions and shootouts for talent that doesn't have a family involved, involved in motorsport, or doesn't have a route that they know how to get into, but is talented, and I'd love to see more opportunities where there's an actual prize, that that means something at the end of it, not just kind of a one-off test or something, but an actual package that gives them a real chance to make it to the top yeah, because there's no reason that a woman shouldn't compete alongside a man.
Sue Anstiss:in that you know physically, physically, mentally, all those things, it's one of those few sports that truly could be equal A hundred percent and you know it'll be.
Catie Munnings:My teammate is the biggest believer in that, because his mum was European rallycross champion as well.
Catie Munnings:His dad was the most successful rallycross driver ever what a pedigree I know it is and his brother is also.
Catie Munnings:They run the factory Red Bull World Rallycross team now, so they're just the most crazy family, but he's he gets it from that side. So that's why I love working with him the most is because he fully believes that I can be faster than him and then you know when I am. Then he sits there studying my data and I sit there studying his data, and when you have a package like that, I think that's what makes a really successful team. So we've been together in the in Extreme E since the very first race of the very first season now. But I genuinely believe that they're in our sports. In off-road I can't 100 speak for formula one because I'm you know I'm not exposed to the same g forces that they have, but I genuinely believe that in our sport it can be that that's the case uh, you hosted a cbb show and you seem a complete natural in front of the camera and media and so on, so is that something that you'd like to do more of in the future?
Catie Munnings:yeah, I really enjoyed it. That show was incredible. I've you know it was a tight and filming time frame so I would try three different amazing machines literally through the day and I'd be like doing a helicopter in the morning, a submarine and then, you know, a fighter plane in the afternoon afternoon. It was ridiculous because I was competing full-time in the European Championship at the same time. So the schedule was absolutely horrific and I got to the end of it absolutely exhausted and it was actually quite hard because they commissioned another two seasons straight away because it was such a hit with the kids and it was such a good time, I think, for a female to be showing young kids how to drive diggers and things like that.
Catie Munnings:But I think for me it had taken away a lot from my performance in Raleigh and towards the end of it, also my performance in the show, because I'd turn up to filming and I couldn't remember the lines, because I'm also trying to remember 500 different roads in Latvia that I'm going to go and compete on and it was a real challenge from that side.
Catie Munnings:I wanted to give one thing 100% and and I got into motorsport with a view of wanting to do that, so I wanted to see that through because I was on a real trajectory and I was signing with Red Bull and, and I didn't know where that could lead me for the future, so it was really hard to say no to them. Um, because it was something I love so much and something that I hope to do more of in the future, one day maybe, because, um, yeah, I really enjoy I do enjoy that kind of presenting side as well, but I think for now I just wanted to give myself the chance to be the person that is is at the top of racing and what do you hope you might contribute?
Sue Anstiss:what do you want your legacy to be from motorsport through your career? So obviously as a brilliant athlete and kind of breaking new ground. But what else would you like to have? Where would you like to have impact?
Catie Munnings:I think it's for me. I'd like to show young not just girls, but young boys and girls, the kind of underdogs coming through, because I'd never had the support to do it properly, like I'd never. Obviously my family helped as much as they could and I would never be here without them, but I was never the one that had it easy, and I think that that's what I'd love to show is how far you can kind of come through, not just now in racing electric cars, but here I am in boats and I don't know what the future will hold from that side. But I think someone said to me the other day that you just say yes to everything, which is probably quite true. That's something that my dad told me early on in my career. He said you have to say you know, take every opportunity that you can, because it's it's so short-lived in sport and you know these opportunities are so rare. So just say yes and and go for it, and I think that that's something that I kind of took through my career. So I think I would love to show young children that you don't, I guess.
Catie Munnings:I guess my main thing is that you don't feel qualified to do it, but you do it and then you can get quite good at it. Is is um, fake it till you make it, because I think that's a big message that I've learned through sport but I think relates to the real world as well, and business and everything else. I think nobody kind of feels like they're qualified and at a level where they are ready to go for that promotion or whatever it might be. But I think if you're somebody that puts yourself out there, you realize you're actually just as well prepared as everybody else and you can probably do quite a good job of it. So I hope that that kind of say yes attitude is something that I leave behind.
Sue Anstiss:So just finally, Catie, if a young woman was inspired by you and wanted a future in any form of motor racing, what's the best way for them to get started?
Catie Munnings:I would get involved with the local motor club. So I think there you'll find people that are really enthusiastic, that have got some contacts, maybe in grassroots level, with the local motor club. So I think there you'll find people that are really enthusiastic, that have got some contacts, maybe in grassroots level or volunteering wise. I would probably just immerse myself in some local events until you can kind of build a little bit of a network, because you never know somebody that knows. Somebody that knows somebody might be able to help out.
Catie Munnings:And I think nowadays is the best time to get involved into motorsport, because there's so many young development programs coming through, whether you want to work in stem and the engineering side, whether you want to be a driver. I think that there's that. You know the industry is feeling the pressure to create opportunities and create academies and space for it. So I think that there's loads of groups like girls on track and and driver shootouts as well. The fia are putting driver shootouts out there now. So I would sign up for everything that you can, basically, and try to build a little network of your own and it's so important, isn't it as well?
Sue Anstiss:just taking on from that, it isn't just about driving. We're talking about driving and being a driver, but actually it's everything within the world of sport and motorsport and, as you say, the engineer, the production side, the you know, bringing your science, your math, all those different areas to a magnificent sport.
Catie Munnings:Yeah, and when you look into it, a lot of the best kind of performances in motorsport have actually been females, behind the strategy in F1 or you know. There's a load more roles out there that I still don't even know about that. I meet incredible women through Girls on Track is a great example, because I'm a driver ambassador, but they've got ambassadors from different Formula One teams in engineering, the aerodynamics designers, they've got the Sky Sports presenters, and so I think when you go to a community event like that, you really learn what is possible, because I think some of the unsung heroes in motorsport in the past have definitely been women.
Sue Anstiss:Well, you can certainly see why Catie's having such success. It's fascinating to learn more about extreme e and all Catie's doing as a driver and beyond her racing, if you'd like to hear more from trailblazers like Catie. There are over 180 episodes of the game changes podcast that are free to listen to on all podcast platforms or from our website at www. fearlesswomen. co. uk. My guests include elite athletes, coaches, entrepreneurs, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and CEOs all women who are driving change in sport. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over seven and a half thousand members across the world, so please do come and join us again. That's on the fearless women website.
Sue Anstiss:The whole of my book Game On: The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. Thanks again to Sport England for backing The Game Changers Podcatst and the Women's Sport Collective through the National Lottery, and to Sam Walker at What Goes On Media, who does such a brilliant job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my lovely colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannon. You can find The Game Changers on all podcast platforms and do follow us now so you don't miss out on future episodes. Come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me at Sue Anstiss, The Game Changers Fearless women in sport.
