Orla Chennaoui: The power of being authentic as a woman reporting sport

This episode was previously released on  May 10, 2022.

Orla Chennaoui is an extraordinary woman who has many talents including being a multilingual TV sports presenter. 

Having worked at Sky News and Sky Sports, Orla is now a Lead Presenter for Eurosport, working across cycling, MotoGP and the Olympics.

With her background in hard-news and investigations, Orla has always had an open and frank approach to sports reporting whether that’s in front of the camera or hosting podcasts and writing regular columns for Rouleur magazine and the Metro newspaper. 

Amongst her many accolades Orla’s also just been nominated as sports presenter of the year at the Sports Journalists Awards 2022. 

In this fascinating episode we explore Orla’s work as a broadcaster, including her move from news to sports presenting, the perception of female broadcasters and why it’s been so important that she retains her authentic style on screen. 

Ahead of a massive summer for women’s cycling with the Tour de France Femmes in July, we discuss the growth in coverage and whether cycling needs to be re-packaged to attract new audiences.  

Orla talks openly about why she stopped drinking, as she, and podcast host Sue Anstiss, celebrate the huge positives of living a life without alcohol.  

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Sue Anstiss: 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond. Before I introduce my guest today, I'd like to say a really big thank you to our partner, Sport England, who support the game changers through a national lottery award. Today I'm talking to an extraordinary woman who has many talents, including being a multilingual TV sports presenter.

Sue Anstiss: 0:38

Orla Chennaoui is now a lead presenter for Eurosport, working across cycling, motogp and the Olympics. A lead presenter for Eurosport, working across cycling, motor GP and the Olympics. Her background in hard news and investigations means that Orla always has an open and frank approach to sports reporting, whether that's in front of the camera or hosting podcasts and writing regular columns for Ruler magazine and the Metro newspaper. Amongst her many accolades, orla's also just been nominated as Sports Presenter of the Year at the Sports Journalist Awards 2022. So congratulations there, aura. When people think of you, they may think of you broadcasting, writing, podcasting and your love of cycling in the Olympics, but they may not think of you as a champion athlete. But you are, so can you tell us a little bit more about that too.

Orla Chennaoui: 1:22

Certainly. Thank you so much for that introduction. I feel completely humbled, I should say. I don't think anybody ever thinks of me, and certainly not as any kind of an athlete, nevermind a champion athlete. I used to be a track and field athlete as a kid. It was such a huge part of my life growing up and I think only now that I'm considerably older I realize how formative it's been in my character, my strength and my discipline, I think. But yeah, I was track and field as a kid and a triple jumper randomly and every time I say it people's eyes sort of pop out of their head because I think it's maybe one of the most random disciplines to do. But yeah, I was twice All-Ireland champion in triple jump and that's as great as my athletics career ever got. And I dreamt for years of competing at the Olympic Games and representing Ireland at the Olympic Games and it never happened. But it has led me into this beautiful career. That's been actually considerably more rewarding. So I'm very grateful for that, but my athletic days are long behind me, sue.

Sue Anstiss: 2:22

And did you come from a very sport loving family too.

Orla Chennaoui: 2:25

I did. I did. Sport was a massive part of where I grew up. Really it's a massive part of our culture.

Orla Chennaoui: 2:31

I grew up in Northern Ireland, in rural Northern Ireland and a very Irish community, a very Catholic community, and so Gaelic sports were the heartbeat really of our entire village and our entire network of villages.

Orla Chennaoui: 2:45

And it was my mum and still is my mum in particular. My dad is a huge Gaelic fan as well, but my mum in particular is obsessed with Gaelic football and so we we would spend Sundays any Sunday we could would be following especially dairy around the place and in all of their progress through the whole Ireland as a family. We'd pack into the car and we'd take our flask and our sandwiches wrapped in tinfoil and we'd get to the football match and open the boot and sit in the boot and eat our sandwiches and drink our tea before we went into the match with our flags and dressed in red and white because that's the colour of dairy. So sport was a massive part of our family life. My siblings all played sport to varying degrees but yeah, I think for me because of that community element of it and because it was such a connection between all of our villages. You know I wasn't just from one village, I was from a network of villages that played against each other, so it's always been a really important bond of community and connection.

Sue Anstiss: 3:40

For me, sport and I think that's where that comes from, just from childhood experience of it- and you studied law and French at university and I have to point out, I think you speak. Is it six or seven?

Orla Chennaoui: 3:50

languages. I'm really, I'm really. I'm not being falsely humble I dabble in languages, but if you were to put me on the spot with anyone, I'd need a little second. So I speak fluent French because my husband is French Moroccan. I speak Dutch now because I live in the Netherlands. I've gotten my German to a level where I've been able to broadcast in it and I've done like live red carpet interviews in in Portuguese and Italian. I could brush up on Spanish if I needed to. I can't remember any others, but I try. I just. I enjoy communicating, see, that's the thing, and so I don't care if I get language and grammar and syntax wrong. But yeah, I like learning languages. I find it just very satisfying. It's fun, isn't it? I like having little secrets as well. I like, I like communicating with people in secret and other people don't know what you're talking about.

Sue Anstiss: 4:37

It's sneaky. I like that. It's especially impressive. I'm a 55 year old woman who just started speaking or learning Spanish on Duolingo last week actually with my daughter, so I'm coming to it late.

Orla Chennaoui: 4:48

It's never too late, though, is it? It never is. Duolingo is a great tool. I really enjoy it. I do that sometimes just for fun. If I've got time to kill, I just go on Duolingo and pick a language, which is incredibly sad of me, but that's my third time.

Sue Anstiss: 5:04

And was law ever a serious consideration as a career path for you?

Orla Chennaoui: 5:08

it sounds awful to say it was a bit of a backup. It was a bit of a safety net, really. My dad wanted me to study law and I just thought, well, that's a good profession to have. I always did really want to be a journalist, um, but there were journalists that I admired who had studied law, and so I thought, well, maybe that's a good way into it. I didn't really know why. I know now why, when I, when I look back at the grounding that law gave me and the analytical ability that it gave me.

Orla Chennaoui: 5:31

But I also wanted to live in France for a year, because I thought that'd be really cool. And if you studied law with friends, then you got to go to French university. If you studied French with something else and you had to go and teach in a French school and I didn't want to teach in a school I wanted to be wholly irresponsible. So I thought, well, if I study law in French in France, then I can just do my own thing. So that was part of the reason as well, which is terrible for four years of study. But I do love a good argument, see, and that's why I thought law would be good for me. I love a good debate, I love getting my head into um proper discussions and I thought a law degree would be a good way to win a few arguments. It hasn't really been, but um, that was my, my entire thinking on it and did you go straight from there, from law then to postgraduate in journalism?

Sue Anstiss: 6:18

is that like a natural progression?

Orla Chennaoui: 6:19

yeah, I went straight in yeah, I didn't do any of these gap years or whatever. I went straight into a post grad in journalism and then that was it and then knew I would fall in love with that industry and that craft and that trade. And I did and haven't regretted it once.

Sue Anstiss: 6:33

And you worked both in print and then broadcast journalism and you literally went up and down the United Kingdom from Scotland to Southampton. But what eventually took you to Sky News?

Orla Chennaoui: 6:44

Oh, the opportunity to work at Sky News is what took me there. Really, as you say, I sort of travelled around an awful lot. I did my postgrad in Edinburgh and then myself and my now husband moved down to Berkshire. He had a placement year there, so I worked in radio down there, then I worked at television in Southampton and then I moved back up to Edinburgh and worked in television there television in Southampton and then I moved back up to Edinburgh and worked in television there and I just saw the job advertised for Ireland correspondent at Sky News.

Orla Chennaoui: 7:10

And I was just about to get married and we lived in Edinburgh and the job meant moving to Belfast and so I applied for it, thinking I wouldn't get it in a million years, and I didn't want to think about getting it because obviously it would be not the most conventional start, shall we say, to married life to leave your husband within two months. But I did get it and that is what I did. But it was really just yeah, it was the opportunity to work at Sky News. Really it was an honour and I knew it'd be incredible grounding and the best that there is really.

Sue Anstiss: 7:39

And where did the switch come then into the sports journalism?

Orla Chennaoui: 7:42

side. Well, as I say, I always wanted to be a journalist and I actually never thought about being a sports journalist, even with all my sporting background. I just never considered it. I wanted to be a war correspondent. That was my dream. I wanted to be Kate Eadie in Latterly or Le Garen. That was a path I was trying to go down.

Orla Chennaoui: 7:59

And news it's brutal, it's really really, really difficult. It's brutal, it's really really really difficult, and not just the environment, but the stories that you're dealing with. You can shut yourself off to the tragedy of humanity for a long time, and you have to if you're a news journalist. And then it just felt a little bit too much for me, really, and I wanted something that was a bit more uplifting.

Orla Chennaoui: 8:17

And so the London Olympics came along, and my boss at the time, simon Cole, had gone to Beijing for the Olympic Games and just fell in love with everything to do with the Olympic Games and decided that we needed an Olympics correspondent at Sky News. And so I thought, well, that's right up my street, it's got the sport, but it's also got the politics and the finance, and it was much more than just a sports job. So I went for that and luckily got it, and then that was it. I started to was much more than just a sports job. So I went for that and luckily got it, and then that was it. I started to do much more sport alongside the politics and the finance, and after the Olympic Games I just decided there's no way, I'm going back to news, I'm going to work in sports somehow or other, and and that's what I did. I just absolutely fell in love with everything to do with it.

Sue Anstiss: 8:59

Really, and what was it like at Sky Sports then for a young female broadcaster, especially as you arrived around the time of this kind of sexism scandal with Richard Keyes and Andy Gray? How was that experience for you at that time? Do you know what?

Orla Chennaoui: 9:13

Sky Sports and Sky Sports News, where I primarily worked. I think it's had quite a bad rep over the years over the years, and I think the women are undervalued by the public sometimes because there's a glamour to it and there's a look to it and I and I have never felt more supported than I did at Sky Sports News. I was entirely given every single tool I needed to do proper sports journalism and I was always championed by my boss. My gender in that newsroom was never an issue.

Orla Chennaoui: 9:51

Andy Cairns, who ran Sky Sports News at the time, and Barney Francis, who came in at the time of that scandal and sort of swept it all clean. To a certain extent they were both just amazing champions of equality and everybody's got a different experience. So I can't speak for anybody else but for me personally. I had every opportunity that I felt I deserved in there and it was a fantastic environment to work in. For me it was absolutely fantastic and I wouldn't have a single bad word to say about Sky Sports and Sky Sports News. I felt they were fantastically supportive and continue to be so, and I do wish sometimes that the wider audience and maybe fellow journalists would would look at the woman on television in particular you know on screen in there, and give them the respect that they deserve because they are excellent at what they do.

Sue Anstiss: 10:35

Fantastic and fantastic to hear you, you know, be so clear about that too. Sky Sport's been a fantastic supporter of us and the women's sport collective and all we're doing.

Orla Chennaoui: 10:42

So I think I perhaps had some of those perceptions myself historically, and as I've got to know them more and see more of their doing, I definitely changed my views, even in the last year or so yeah, and I have to say, even so, since I've left Sky Sports News even it is the it is my, my female colleagues who've been in touch to support primarily the guys as well, and they're fantastic, the guys are all brilliant, but I always felt a sense of sisterhood in there and and a connection with the other woman and and they've proven that by being so supportive of me in different things and you mentioned that I, that I was nominated for sports presenter of the year and and the number of messages I got from girlfriends in there was just brilliant and genuine and heartfelt and and what women should be for each other, I think, in this industry. So I'm glad you've had that experience as well.

Sue Anstiss: 11:31

I've spoken to other female sports broadcasters on the podcast, like Gabby Logan and Ellie Oldroyd and Laura Woods, who talk about having to work harder than their male colleagues to prove themselves. Is that something you found through sport?

Orla Chennaoui: 11:43

yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And and I say how how wonderfully supportive the newsroom was. But the wider world isn't like that, you know, and I I work primarily in cycling and cycling has changed a lot even in the time that I've been in it. But it is a very traditional male, white European sport still.

Orla Chennaoui: 12:07

And when I started in cycling in particular, it was very challenging to be taken seriously and partly because I didn't want to change who I am, to be able to fit in and I would turn up to bike races in dresses and wedged heels while everybody else was in pedal pushers and polo shirts, you know, and obviously all the guys are in jeans and polo shirts. I didn't want to stand out. That's not why I was doing it, but I wanted to be me. But obviously then it meant that, um, I say obviously it shouldn't be obvious at all, but it did mean that people questioned my presence and my credibility and why I was there. People would say, well, why are you into cycling? There's this assumption that you're there because you're trying to get a man, you know, or whatever it might be. But I remember one of the team bosses who I have an awful lot of affection and respect for and he said this in a really respectful way at the time.

Orla Chennaoui: 13:06

But I was standing outside the team bosses at the Giro d'Italia, the Tour of Italy, and we were in the mountains and it was a beautiful sunny day and I was there again in a short dress and wedge heels and he came laughing over to me and all the guys were standing around waiting for an interview with him and he just made a beeline for me. He came straight to me and laughed. He said oh, orla, you look like you're going to a party. Um, and I laughed back and I said I always dress like I'm going to a party because you never know when there's going to be one. And he laughed and he gave me the interview of everybody else you know.

Orla Chennaoui: 13:34

So in the end I've broken through and I know I've broken through and I'm not going to pretend that I don't know that. Um, but I it's been harder work and I've said before I'm grateful really for having to work harder because it has made me better at what I do. And even now I know there is no room for complacency. I just can't get things wrong. I just can't be good enough and I can't be as good as the men, I always have to be better.

Sue Anstiss: 14:05

I can't be as good as the men. I always have to be better. And you mentioned, I guess, what wearing dresses and so on to events, and you do get attention for what you wear on screen. So how important has it been you to you to be more distinctive about your appearance?

Orla Chennaoui: 14:18

I don't know if it's important to be distinctive. To me it's important to be genuine and to be authentic, and when I started on Eurosport in particular it is the home of cycling and it is it has been in the past at least very traditional, and so wearing different clothes and funky hair and makeup was a big deal, you know, and I got an awful lot of negative attention and and mainly, people saying why, though, why are you bothering? Why are you doing that? And Eurosport have always just been entirely supportive because they know I'm good at my job. But it matters to me because I am a woman in sport and I've always wanted to see a version of me in sport, to know that I belong. You know, I say how much I grew up with sport, but I grew up with it knowing it wasn't really my domain. I was just carving a little place for myself in it, but I would watch television coverage of football, and it was always the man talking, and so you feel like you are an invited guest in that rather than someone who necessarily belongs, and so, for me, I just want to be a representation of a different kind of sports fan, and I want to show women in particular, that you can care about how you look and you can love sport, and you can get sweaty and grimy and dirty and still want to put on some lipstick. And it's not this exclusive domain. It's not something that's either frivolous or too serious.

Orla Chennaoui: 15:43

And and I feel like whenever I became a mother, I had I think a lot of new mums in particular have a bit of an identity crisis, and I had a massive identity crisis, which is linked in with postnatal depression and all sorts, and I didn't know if I'd ever be me again. You know, I felt like all of a sudden I went from being Orla to, as it was, an Eve's mum, so I'm Eve's mum, I don't have my own name anymore. As it was an Eve's mum, so I'm Eve's mum, I don't have my own name anymore. And finding my sense of style again as a mum was a really important part of that. And I have found that with other mums actually, that you know you're wearing pregnancy clothes for such a long time and then afterwards you're like, well, what's the fashion now? How do I dress? And so for all of those reasons, you know, I want to show mums you can dress how you like. You know mums in your 40s dress how you like. Dress like you're 20, because who cares? You know?

Sue Anstiss: 16:34

I love that. I love that. And you talk about that women being stylish on screen and we think about Gabby Logan, Denise Lewis, Alex Scott. So I think that is changing when you think about the women that we're now seeing presenting sport.

Orla Chennaoui: 16:44

Massively and I find that really powerful. You know, and I love Alex Scott, in particular her Insta feed. I love that and I'm so glad that she now exists and she's now doing that because it legitimizes it. And I think now we don't get so much of the shock and horror at dressing how you like and being sassy as well as being intelligent. Because you know, I do remember one boss saying to me once you know, we don't show knees, and in particular, not you. You're supposed to be the serious one, you're supposed to give us credibility, and I laughed at the time and I wish I hadn't laughed.

Orla Chennaoui: 17:20

I kept wearing short skirts, but I should have said I can be credible and wear short skirts. It doesn't detract from my intelligence. If you've got an issue with that, your issue, it's not mine. You know, I still have my law degree, I still speak several languages. I've still, I've still proven myself in sport over and over again. And if I choose to have all of that in my armory and wear a short skirt and heels, then that's for me. So, yeah, I do think it matters very powerful, very powerful.

Sue Anstiss: 17:48

I'm glad I put those questions in. That's really good. You moved to Amsterdam for your husband's job, I believe a few years ago, and I know you've become a cyclist too. I love watching you with Laura Kenny your first ride at the velodrome, because I did it myself a few years ago, and your video perfectly summed up how terrifying it is. So how was it for you, and have you done it again since then?

Orla Chennaoui: 18:11

no, I haven't done it again actually, but I would love to. I was absolutely terrified. And here's the thing, right, I had an awful day that day and I had a late night the night before and I was developing these allergies and sometimes my face swells up. Well, I woke up that morning, see, with a face like a balloon, like somebody had stuck a pump in my mouth and and just pumped my face up, and so I was. I was traumatized. I didn't know what was going on. I looked like elephant woman, so anyway. But.

Orla Chennaoui: 18:38

But Laura had offered to give me a track session and I thought well, I know, this is going to be on camera like I look, like I've been to a plastic surgeon, you know, because my lips were massive and my face was massive. But I thought but I can't, I can't let my vanity and ego at the fact I look weird detract from the fact that Laura Kenny is going to teach me how to ride a track bike. So I was like, oh, I've got to go and do it, and I'm so glad I did it, and I knew it would be such a privilege to have someone like her the very first time I went on the track, and she found it hilarious, of course, because she's so used to have someone like her the very first time I went on the track. And she found it hilarious, of course, because she's so used to it and she's so badass and she's so brave. And there's me I've never ridden a bike without brakes before and I've never done it on a track, which is just terrifying.

Orla Chennaoui: 19:26

And so I had my friend and co-presenter, adam Blythe, helping me and he was holding up the saddle for me so that I wouldn't wobble over before I even started and I started going around the track and I was just screaming for most of the time and terrified. And then and then I remember at one stage she was trying to get me to go higher up the banking and I started to do it and as I was screaming in terror, I suddenly realized how exhilarating it was and the scream turned to absolute joy and I thought, oh, I'm doing it. And I watched back and I was maybe two centimeters above the line, but I thought I was on top of the world. And you know what?

Orla Chennaoui: 20:04

What was wonderful about it was it gave me that feeling again of conquering fears, and that's why I love doing sports, and doing new sports or doing old sports in different ways, because you take on some sort of fear and you have to leave your ego aside because you're not going to be very good at it, you're not going to be able to do it, but you're going to give it a go and I had such fun that afternoon and I'm so glad I did it and I would do it again. But I haven't yet. So it's easy to say I would do it again, but I'll just.

Sue Anstiss: 20:33

I'll just say it's because I'm too busy, but it was wonderful together. At some point in the future we'll we can scream together you probably won't scream. You'd be much braver than me going back to your move to the Netherlands. How was that transition? Did you have any concerns about your your career at the time in terms of being in a different city?

Orla Chennaoui: 20:52

Massive concerns, of course, because I didn't know anybody in the Netherlands and I was losing and leaving behind my entire network of professional and personal contacts. I'd lived in London for goodness, 12 years or something, and you know London is still the centre of media, sports media but at the same time I was ready for a change and I wanted to spread my wings and I wanted to do more of my own thing. So I was pregnant at the time with my second child and so I took an early maternity leave from Sky, knowing that was my safety net and knowing that if it didn't work out, I'd find a way to go back again because my job was still open for me. And in the end, I love the life here so much. I love the lifestyle in the community and the sense of peace it gives me to live in Amsterdam.

Orla Chennaoui: 21:41

I love it so deeply that everything else just works out. It is much harder than if I lived in the UK in terms of work, because I still have to travel to the UK an awful lot for my work and that means leaving my young kids and that's really difficult for them and for my daughter in particular. But it's all about balance and you have to decide what you're going to sacrifice in return for what you get, and the life that we have here and the community that we've, that we've become a part of here, makes it all worth it, and it also makes me enjoy my work so much it's literally a holiday every time I go away for work now, because I get to leave all the responsibility at home and just go and have fun chatting about sport.

Sue Anstiss: 22:22

It's going to be a massive summer for women's cycling, with the second Paris-Roubaix FEMME and the Tour de France FEMME too. So how important is it that young women and men can finally see female role models on bikes in the biggest global races.

Orla Chennaoui: 22:37

It's just crucial. It's so belated and it makes me sad at the same time as excited that it's taken such a long time and that we're still so far off it it being equality and parity. But it is so important, and I feel that for myself, but I see it through my daughter. I've had the opportunity in the last couple of years of sitting down with her and her two little friends and watching women's bike racing together, and I cannot tell you how full that makes my heart, because each one of them every time chooses somebody different that they're going to support. And so, for example, anna van der Breche, who was the world champion, and so she wears a jersey with the rainbow bands on it. And so my daughter's little friend, mara Luisa, chose Anna van der Breche as her rider because she likes unicorns, and she thought, well, she's got a unicorn jersey on. Then we had her little friend, saren, who supported Marianne Vos, because Vos rides for Jumbo Visma and Jumbo is a supermarket in the Netherlands and it's Saren's favorite supermarket, so she wanted to support Jumbo Visma. And then Eve was supporting Lizzie Deigenen, because Eve was born in London, so she sees herself as being English and Lizzie is English and I've talked to her a lot about the things that Lizzie has done, and so each one of those was cheering their own rider in the race, and it was beautiful.

Orla Chennaoui: 24:04

And then the next week we sat down to watch a men's race and my daughter said, oh, is the women's race coming next then? And there was no women's race coming next, and she couldn't understand why there wasn't. And when I try to explain to my daughter why there's still inequality, it makes it real and it makes the injustice of it so much more stark, because we accept this, don't we? We accept it like we should. But when you tell a seven-year-old, yeah, but the world's not fair and women still don't we, we accept it like we should. But when you tell a seven-year-old, yeah, but the world's not fair and women still don't have the same opportunities as men, they literally cannot get their heads around it, and neither should we, frankly.

Orla Chennaoui: 24:39

But having this opportunity to watch the second Women's Paris-Roubaix in a few weeks and the first Tour de France Femme will be phenomenal. And I'm really proud to be a part of a broadcast platform, through Discovery and Eurosport and GCN, that shows more women's racing than anyone else, more women's racing than ever before, because these things will make a difference. And if it's just making a difference to show little girls that they can do what the boys do, that they can fall down and get back up again, get dirty and get grimy and get gritty and then still look amazing on the podium, then that in itself is enough. Because even when I was growing up that's part of the reason I love track and field, because I got to see women competing on the same level as men and I didn't realize that at the time but that's why I loved it. And now we get to show that through cycling and we will keep being able to do that more and more through cycling.

Sue Anstiss: 25:35

And it really matters in all sports, in all sports and do you think we need to package women's sport and women's cycling differently to men's, or is it just about giving it equal airtime?

Orla Chennaoui: 25:47

I don't think we need to package it differently at all, actually, unless we're packaging the men's cycling differently, which I think we could. I think we could do it all better. I think there is a danger, in women's cycling in particular, following the same format as the men's racing, because if you were to invent cycling as a, as a as an elite sport now, in 2022, you would never decide that three Grand Tours, three weeks of racing 21 stages in a row was a good idea, and you would never have this jumbled, confused calendar that we have in men's racing, and women's teams don't yet have the numbers and the depth to be able to accommodate all of that. Women's racing could do with being different. I think the coverage, though, has to be the same, because once you start making it different, it's seen to be different because it's not as good or because it needs X, y or Z, but if you give it the same platform, we're saying, yeah, but it's just as good.

Sue Anstiss: 26:44

I have so much I could talk to you about, but one of the areas I am fascinated to explore with you is the fact that you stopped drinking four years ago, because I also quit last June, so almost a year now and it's been the most extraordinary, positive, joyful experience so why did you stop?

Orla Chennaoui: 27:01

Congratulations first of all. I'm delighted that you find it so positive. It's amazing I actually stopped now. Uh, it's longer than that, uh, six and a half years ago, I think it is now oh wow no.

Orla Chennaoui: 27:14

I think so. I think it is. Let me think something like that anyway. Um, I stopped because I drank too much for a start, and that was fun for a long time, you know, and I lived in central London, I lived in Notting Hill and I had a carefree existence and I had no kids and I had lots of people to go out and have fun with. And when it stops being fun, you don't realize, you know, and you keep trying to get the fun back again and you think that the alcohol was your doorway into the fun. So if you keep opening that door and going through that door, the fun will come back and you don't realize that actually, that is becoming the block to having fun.

Orla Chennaoui: 28:00

So I drank too much and when my daughter came along, it was essentially then impossible to be every version of myself that I wanted to be. I wanted to still be the fun one, you know, and the party girl, but I couldn't do that and be a good mum and work as hard as I want to work, and so something had to go, and that's a really sanitized version, really, of what it was. It was a lot more brutal than that and I had to face up to a lot of home truths that were very difficult. But I decided that I didn't want my life to be that and I didn't want to suffer hangovers with a young child because it's really hard and I thought I'm losing out in time with her, I'm not gaining time through having fun, I'm just having alcohol and then losing out with her. So I took the very difficult decision and it was difficult because I'd actually wanted to stop drinking for a long time before I did, and I almost always knew I would stop because I thought I can't sustain this um, and in the times that it wasn't fun, I knew it would have to end. And that's what I did and I just decided that's it. I just can't drink. And I actually I was going to say I can never drink again. That wasn't the thinking. It was I have to stop now and then I'll see. I'll see what tomorrow is and I'll see what the what tomorrow's tomorrow is. And I was going on a girl's holiday to Ibiza four days after I stopped drinking and my husband was like do you want to reconsider the girl's Ibiza trip? But I thought, well, no, because if I, if I stop drinking, I don't want to stop living. The point is I need to stop drinking to live properly again, and going to these girls Ibiza will be awesome, fun, and I want to do that, and so I did, and I'm really glad I did, because we had the most amazing time and it was a wonderful place to disconnect from real life as well and just concentrate on not drinking and why I wasn't drinking. And so, yeah, it was just a slow process of reforming habits. That's what was really hard.

Orla Chennaoui: 29:59

There's so much connected to alcohol, especially in our society. There is the fact that you walk into a supermarket and there is alcohol everywhere, so you've got to break the habit of just picking up a bottle of wine to have with your dinner. Then there is the habit that you form of celebrating with a glass of wine, commiserating with a glass of wine, congratulating yourself for getting through another day with a glass of wine and working out how you do all of that without alcohol, but also then realizing what a load of rubbish all of that is. But congratulating yourself with a glass of wine, giving yourself a sore head, is congratulations, come on. And then there's the network of friends.

Orla Chennaoui: 30:39

You know I lost quite a lot of friends through my not drinking. I felt the responsibility to be the life and soul of the party. I felt the responsibility always to be the one to get things going and to make sure everyone was having fun, and I thought I can't do that without alcohol. But the friends that stuck around are so, so, so dear to me, and I want to mention one of them just because he died this week, and I really just want to say his name out loud because, um the room there aren't many people like him, and so Richard Muir, my friend, was one of the friends who um won't have realized. He made it easier because he kept dancing with me and he kept going out with me and he kept having fun and he never once asked me why I felt the need to stop drinking. He just accepted it because he knew it was best for me and he didn't ever.

Orla Chennaoui: 31:30

Lots of friends, if you try to stop drinking, will project yourself on themselves, onto you and their issues with alcohol onto you, and they will be afraid that you, walking away from alcohol, is leaving them alone with it. Um, and he just never did that. You know he never. He never tried to like drag me along into the booze party. He just kept me at the party and that was really, really important. I thanked him for a lot in his life and I didn't I didn't ever think to thank him for that, because he was always going to be my friend and he was always going to be there and now he's not.

Orla Chennaoui: 32:02

But I'm so incredibly grateful to him and another, another good friend who helped me through these things and my life is so, so, so, so much better without alcohol and it makes me sad to look back and think of all the years that I did drink really, and that I didn't embrace this fullness of life earlier. But it's also okay, because you have to learn your lessons and you have to do it your way. But one of the joys of stopping drinking and having to form these new habits is that every new habit that you make to replace the alcohol is something that's good for you, which is wonderful. So I started meditation and I started yoga and I paddleboard and I go cold water swimming and I still need kicks. I still need that intensity of feeling alive, but I do it in a way that opens my lungs and my heart and my soul and my eyes to the world, and that's a wonderful, wonderful gift and it's not something that everybody needs to do, but it's something that I needed to do and I'm very grateful that I did.

Sue Anstiss: 32:58

Fantastic. I'm nodding vigorously here. It's a podcast, but I completely agree with so many of your thoughts there. I love the realism in your Instagram bio where you say you're a sports broadcaster, podcaster, columnist and writer, lover of cycling, olympics, athletics and my two kids. Balls may drop and I'm always wary of asking women about bringing up children, as it's not something we would necessarily ask men in the same position. But your bio does also say you're a full-time mum. So how have you balanced life, especially when you're traveling so much for those big events?

Orla Chennaoui: 33:31

I was going gonna say. It's a hard question because sometimes I feel like I don't balance it very well and often I don't. But but, principally, how I do it is with incredible support from my husband, firstly, who um understands entirely what my work means to me and and what my mission is in life, but also from, in particular, our two mothers, and we have a babysitter who also is a massive, massive help. So I don't do it by myself. I don't at all and I couldn't do it by myself. But it's really difficult and I sometimes feel guilty about projecting an image of the possibility of doing it, and I also don't want it to sound like it's impossible, because obviously you can. But sometimes, when it's really hard and people say, oh, it's wonderful that you do this and I'm really glad that you show that you can do it, and I want to reply don't believe it. Don't believe it because there's a reason most people do it, because it's really bloody hard and I'm maybe doing the wrong thing. So don't take my example as the way to do it.

Sue Anstiss: 34:33

You've spoken and written very publicly about mental health, be that postnatal depression and anxiety, and even in 2022, it does take some courage to be so open. Was that a difficult decision? I think, having spoken to you today, I can understand the why, but I wonder how people have reacted to that honesty and openness.

Orla Chennaoui: 34:52

I've had such an overwhelming reaction to starting to post a little bit more about anxiety and and it's why I keep doing it really, and I don't I I also don't want to be just that, you know. So I have to be careful that I'm also posting things that I celebrate and things that I love. But but I do think it's important to post about anxiety and my personal depression, as it was, because depression is horrific and anybody who ever goes through it. It is so suffocating and when I was going through it, that's all you can think about it is yourself and your pain and the darkness and the fact that there is simply no way out. There is no way out. You're, you're in a straight jacket and you're bashing into walls and there's no door, there's no window, there's nothing.

Orla Chennaoui: 35:42

And then when I came through it, I forgot that other people would maybe see the image that I like to project as being all of me. I don't, I don't mean that to sound sort of egotistical or self-focused. I mean more that I like to be a happy person and I've and I forget that people don't realize that your happiness isn't inevitable and it's it's not without its hard work. So whenever I, whenever I posted the first time about suffering postnatal depression. I remember a colleague at work getting in touch and saying you're the last person I would have expected to suffer postnatal depression, and and that really shocked me. I thought who do you expect to suffer from postnatal depression then? Because me being a happy person and a joyful person has got nothing to do with suffering depression, and so that was a little glimmer of it, but I've sort of kept it not private, just not thought it was something that needed to be shared.

Orla Chennaoui: 36:32

But I realized when I started to post a little bit about anxiety how much it was connecting with people and how some of the messages that I get from people are absolutely heartbreaking that I don't even know where to start, and it made me realize that it is also important to show that, even though my job involves me being on television, being on television as a woman means getting your hair and makeup done, and I love to wear smart clothes and look a certain part, and I think it's really important to show that.

Orla Chennaoui: 37:00

That doesn't mean for anybody watching at home. They're looking at someone whose life is perfect. You can look at anybody and have no idea what's going on with them. So if you're suffering, know that you're not alone, know that you're not the only one, know that not everyone else has this perfect existence. You're the only one who's going mad, you know, um. And so I find that just really important to share with other people that that we're we're not on it together, we're not in it together because everybody's is so entirely different. But if we're not connecting with each other and helping and reaching out, then what is the point?

Sue Anstiss: 37:36

I love the piece you mentioned around that kind of connecting and people reaching out to you, because I shared a couple of posts about stopping drinking. Quite I put. I shared something on LinkedIn actually, which wasn't a normal place to share stuff, but I had so many direct messages from people who were thinking about stopping and wanting you know. It's like oh, everything came out and that was kind of lovely to be able to, as you say, be very public and open about it. Things aren't always as they appear on the on the surface. Are those people too? You've clearly achieved so much in so many different ways across life. So just finally, I wonder, in terms of future ambitions a huge summer ahead and so much in terms of sport and cycling, but what are your kind of ambitions for the future?

Orla Chennaoui: 38:16

I have future ambitions, and I'm glad I do. Actually, now, you see, because I didn't for a while I felt like whenever I got my dream job, I thought what next? I've done it like I've done what I wanted to do. But thankfully I'm incredibly restless and I do now have ambitions that I want to achieve, and one of them is a book that I'm hoping to write that will matter to me a lot, and there's a documentary series that I would really love to get off the ground, that I'm working very hard on and if that happens, it will be something that's so personal and meaningful to me and hopefully will connect with a lot of people. But I think my ambitions really are those with meaning. Now, you know, because I wanted to achieve what I've achieved so far for me, and that's wonderful and you have to do it for you. But then now I want to use the tiny platform that I have to reach out and to do things, not necessarily for other people, but with other people Well, yeah, for other people, I guess, and with other people, and I want to strengthen connections through writing and through more substantial broadcast, and podcasting is a massive part of that.

Orla Chennaoui: 39:36

We're sharing stories that I feel really matter, and we've had a few conversations for it so far, which have been they've just blown me over and I think as well you know. So I'm going off on a tangent here, but I find that the more honest and vulnerable you are with people, the more they give you that in return, and that's been an absolute privilege of the last couple of years. Being a bit more open with people has meant I've gotten that back again, and so some of the stories that I've been able to share or we will be able to share on our podcast that I'm doing with Greg Rutherford, we've had some beautiful conversations that hopefully will really matter to people and strike a chord with people, and that's really really, really deeply satisfying.

Sue Anstiss: 40:13

Wow, what a woman. I absolutely loved talking to Orla and I wish her well for future projects. If you'd like to hear from other incredible female trailblazers in sport, head to fearlesswomencouk, where you'll find details of all of my guests from this and the previous series. And if you'd like to hear from other women working as sports broadcasters, you'll find episodes where I talk in depth with Claire Balding, laura Woods, gabby Logan, jessica Crichton, ebony Mane for Brent and Kelly Cates, along with many sports pundits such as Denise Lewis, enia Luko, kelly Smith and Maggie Alfonsi.

Sue Anstiss: 40:50

As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free network for all women working in sport. You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter which highlights the developments in global sport, and there's also more about my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport, of Women's Sport. Thanks once again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers through the National Lottery, and to Sam Walker, who does such a great job as our executive producer, along with Rory Ouskery on sound production. Finally, thank you to my brilliant colleague, Kate Hannon, who does so much to support the podcast at Fearless Women. I don't often ask, but if you'd like to give the Game Changers a review or rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, that would be great, as it really helps get these stories out to more people. Do come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on Twitter, linkedin, instagram and Facebook at Sue Anstis the Game Changers Fearless women in sport.