A re-released episode originally published as part of Series 3 on May 19, 2020.
At the time of the original release Casey was Manager at Man United Women, and had been capped over 100 times for England and captained the Lionesses and Team GB during the London 2012 Olympics.
Casey talks us about how she was bullied for playing football as a girl, her surreal first cap in front of a crowd of 45,000, what makes a great captain and leader, the difference in life as a manager versus a professional player and how she’s managing life as Manager at Manchester United Women.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
A re-released episode originally published as part of Series 3 on May 19, 2020.
At the time of the original release Casey was Manager at Man United Women, and had been capped over 100 times for England and captained the Lionesses and Team GB during the London 2012 Olympics.
Casey talks us about how she was bullied for playing football as a girl, her surreal first cap in front of a crowd of 45,000, what makes a great captain and leader, the difference in life as a manager versus a professional player and how she’s managing life as Manager at Manchester United Women.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello, I'm Sue Anstos, the host of the Game Changers, with a quick message before this episode. As we've had thousands of new listeners in 2023, we thought we'd take this small break between series 15 and 16 to share some of our back catalogue. We've loved listening back to these earlier episodes and hope that you also enjoy hearing from these incredible leaders in women's sport. And while I'm here, don't forget that the whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to. In series 13 of the podcast, every episode is me reading a chapter of the book. Now it's time for the Game Changers. Welcome to the Game Changers podcast.
Speaker 1:Sport has the power to transform people's lives, both on and off the field, and women's sport has the extra ability to knock down barriers and challenge the status quo. I'm Sue Anstos, a founding trustee of the Women's Sport Trust Charity and the founder and CEO of Promote PR, one of the UK's leading sports communications agencies. I am thrilled to say that this series of the Game Changers is supported by Barclays and will focus on fearless women in football, reinforcing Barclays huge commitment to the beautiful game. Last year, barclays announced the biggest ever sponsorship of women's sport in the UK and the Barclays FA Women's Super League became Europe's first fully professional women's football league. A big part of Barclays investment in women's football also went into establishing the girls' football school partnerships with the aim of ensuring that all girls in England have equal access to football by 2024. My guest this week is incredibly passionate about ensuring all girls get the opportunity to play football.
Speaker 1:Casey Stoney MBE is manager at Manchester United. Women Capped over 100 times for England. Casey also capped in the lionesses and Team GB during the London 2012 Olympics. I was keen to know where Casey's passion for football began.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a cul-de-sac full of boys. I had only two girls and I always had a love for football. I was never really into dolls and things like that. I was always out playing, active, climbing trees, going places. I shouldn't have been going, probably at my age, but we used to just put jumpers down for goals and play. I could always have a natural ability at it and my mum said, even when I was kind of three, in the garden she had people around and they were like, oh, she's actually really good with the football. So I think football found me more than I found it, and I've always loved it.
Speaker 1:I've heard you talk in the past about growing up and perhaps not having money for new boots and kit and so on. Did that ever put you off? I think that wasn't for you.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think my parents would let me because they're very much about what you can do rather than what you've got to do it. So, yeah, it was a struggle at times because you had to pay to play, and even £3 on a training night, £5 on a match day and paying for your kit was a real push for us. We didn't have a lot of money. Even when we moved from Essex to Mordon we had to stop swimming because my mum couldn't afford for both of us to swim, myself and my brother. So one could go but both can't go, so neither of us went. So I was lucky that football was a little bit cheaper. A lot of managers were a little bit more understanding and sometimes let you off with not paying now and again. So I think we found ways around it and also my mum worked awfully hard to make sure that we had the opportunities to do things.
Speaker 1:And who are your sporting heroes? Your football heroes growing up, would you say. I've heard you've mentioned Ian Wright in the past.
Speaker 2:I have yeah, there wasn't any female ones, if I'm really honest, because they weren't on the TV or in the papers or not visible at all. I didn't even really know where his football existed at that level. So I loved Arsenal when I was really young and I loved Ian Wright, because he just always played with a smile and with an enthusiasm and energy that just made me want to play the game.
Speaker 1:And you said that people like your mum knew from when you were three you were a great player, but when do you think people really saw your talent at that high level?
Speaker 2:It's difficult because I never really believed in myself, to be honest, throughout my career. It took me to actually win international player of the year to realise that was actually good enough to play for England. Obviously, when I was playing at the Little League and I got spotted for Chelsea and the manager there knew that I had a talent and put me in the first team within the first couple of games of the season and that was it. I'm still in contact with him now. Actually, he was a great man. And then, obviously, when I started playing at England and breaking in, I think that's when people realised that was I ever the most talented? I definitely wasn't, but I was certainly one of the most hard working and that's what got me by.
Speaker 1:And that's such a fantastic message, isn't it for girls and boys now playing sport that it isn't necessarily all about innate skill?
Speaker 2:No, it isn't. I had Obviously had natural talent and a bit of it, because I could play, and I could play quite well. But for me to be able to play at the top, top level, I had to work very hard, very, very hard, because I wasn't as good as everybody else I was still a talented player. But there's a reason. I was a center half, not on midfield or forward, but I honed my skills in terms of being the most physically fit. I could be watching as many games as I can, learning the game, reading the game, and you know I was never blessed with pace, so I had to make sure that I had had the ability to read the game and Preempt things quicker than every other player on the page and just make myself a player that managers could rely on.
Speaker 1:And we hear a lot of teenage girls dropping out at that kind of key age. Was that ever an option for you, or were you always committed to playing?
Speaker 2:No, I considered quitting a few times, if I'm honest when I was about 11, first time when I got banned from all football because it was the mixed sport rules, and I thought about walking away then, but I think I'm too stubborn. And then throughout my teenage years, when I was actually bullied for playing football, you know, because it was not really the thing to do for a girl and especially, if you could, against the boys.
Speaker 1:Was that boys and girls bullying, or calling it out or making the boys?
Speaker 2:Mainly the boys, to be honest. But then they picked me in the in the team. So it's a bit confusing really. But I always say, you know, I always tell a story when I go around to schools. I'm like these are the same bullies that now want to come up and ask my autograph. So you know it's gone full circle and I Would go home and cry a lot of time and speak to my mom. Mom was very much like don't let them win. Don't let them win because you know if you quit you walk away, they win.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think it's so hard as a girl to play sports. There's so many barriers. You know I played in the boys team. I asked you go ready Because there was no changing facilities, leave muddy because there's no changing facilities. You get teased by parents, tease by, but there's so many reasons to quit rather than to keep the game up. And I think obviously pe in schools isn't good enough so it doesn't give the girls the physical literacy and confidence. So when you start becoming self-aware at 12, 13, 14, you get body image issues and Self-image issues and you don't feel confident. Of course it's easier to step away.
Speaker 1:And do you feel that's changed now from where you were growing up? You're going into schools and seeing and talking to young people.
Speaker 2:No, if anything, it's probably getting worse because of the pressures of social media and the pressures that media put on young girls To look a certain way and be a certain way, and and also the government doesn't invest in sport, especially in schools. So you know it's very much about maths, english, science, and I wasn't a very Bright person. I got by in schools and very academic, and If they would have talked to me and said, right, do it, do an essay about England in the World Cup, or let's do maths on percentages of you know possession and shots, I would have been way more engaged. You know new sports at all for for good, for me, for that. But I think they put such an emphasis on that, on the academic students and not so much on that, the Practical students that I think everyone learns in different ways.
Speaker 2:But unfortunately in this country we have a bit of a one shoe fits all and so I don't see a huge amount of change in that. I wish it would change more. I think we have an awful lot to do in primary schools, because it's not the teachers fault. I think they get half a day's training, yeah, so it's not good enough. You know, I wouldn't want to do half a day's training in maths and then go and deliver the math lesson because I wouldn't be good, I wouldn't be good enough. So, you know, I think we have a responsibility really as a government to invest more in in sport and young people, because I'm not a Politician, I'm certainly not a rocket scientist, but if we have a healthier nation, surely it brings down our NHS costs, we ever, our mental health will be better, our physical health will be better and we'll be a healthier nation. So, you know, I think there's there's lots that can be done that isn't being done.
Speaker 1:Excellent. It almost feels as if you went from playing in the street and playing as the only girl on a boys team to playing in a Senior women's team at the age of 12. So how did that feel when everyone else was so much older than you to come into a team in that way?
Speaker 2:Well, I think obviously the key thing was when I went from the Little League into Chelsea, they they didn't have any junior teams. They had one senior team and a reserves team. So they were both senior teams and I was 12. Yeah, and you weren't actually legally allowed to play senior football to your 14.
Speaker 2:So, luckily, I was tall and we used to change my date of birth on registration forms but it was daunting, but I think because I could always cope and I could handle myself and I'll try and see the positives. So, yes, I'm playing with adults, but it means I can get a lift, so I didn't have to rely on anybody to get me there, you know, and mom was working all the time and dad wasn't at home at that point. So for me, I always saw the positives and also I was around more mature people, which was a good thing about things at times. The players that were better, so I was learning, I was challenging, they were physically better, so I had to think quicker again. So I actually think it probably done me a favor, petrified, the first time I turned up. I'm not gonna lie, but once you get a ball at your feet, you forget everything else.
Speaker 1:How old were you when you've got your first cap?
Speaker 2:My first, my first senior cap. I was 17. So it was quite young.
Speaker 1:Can you remember how you felt? I guess you had junior under 23 and I had under 16 in the 18 caps up.
Speaker 2:Well, I only went on one under 16 cap and then they pushed me straight into the under 18s and then Hope moved me into the seniors and it was. It was an incredible experience because it wasn't a normal first cap, because we'd actually been invited over to France to play An exhibition game before the FIFA All-Stars men's game. So I'm sat on the bench just having a lovely time, just happy to be there, and she turns. She's like warm up and I was like my stomach nearly fell out. I'm not gonna lie, but it's how I'd gone. There was 45,000 people in the stand, so obviously wasn't a norm, and whilst I'm playing, I turn around there. France had a corner. I turn around to look behind me and Zinedine Zidane and and many of petite, they're all sat down watching the game behind, and it was. It was a really surreal moment, but it was one that kind of, I think, really lit my fire to make, to make me want to do it more.
Speaker 1:So all there to watch you when you first cap and then in 2005, the euro's came around and you didn't get to play you up on the bench a bit for that. How did that affect you in terms of your thoughts on the game moving forward?
Speaker 2:Well, I think leading into that tournament they were had had a few injuries and I'd played pretty much every game leading up to it because we're quite a lot of Friendlies, because obviously we have to qualify, because we were home nation, so I'd played quite a lot. So the opening game happened and I wasn't in the team, obviously bitterly disappointed, didn't get on and then by the third game we'd been knocked out and there was only two of us that hadn't played a single minute and I remember I really that was probably the closest I'd ever been to walking away because I just thought I'm doing all this and what am I doing it for me? Yeah, I'm making all these sacrifices. We're still not getting paid at that time, you know, it's still a hobby. I'm missing all these things weddings, chrisnins, friends going out Weeks away and nothing. To take unpaid leave from my job, you know, because we didn't get time off to do it. So I just thought why am I doing all this? And I had a long, long hard think after it, because it was the summer, obviously. So I had a little bit of a break and I'm not a quitter and I I love trying to prove people wrong, but also trying to prove myself more, more, more. So prove it to myself that I can do it.
Speaker 2:So I made a real conscious effort to change what I was doing. I thought do you know what? If I'm not maybe as talented as everyone else, maybe I'm not as skillful as everyone else, I've got to find a different way. So what I did is I made myself one of the fittest players in the team. I trained every single day, used to get up at.
Speaker 2:Luckily, around that time I was working at the David Beckham Academy. I got a job there, so I'd access to full two full-size pitches. I used to get up at five, being worked for six. I'd train from six to late and then I do a full day's work. Then I'd finish work and then I'd go and train. We only trained two nights a week at Chelsea. Then I'd drive around the Murtway train for Chelsea and I was first on the pitch, last to leave.
Speaker 2:You know, christmas morning I'm going out for a run and Everyone else thinks I'm nuts and I know what it's gonna take to get me there. Just do you know what I'll thought to myself if I give everything and I try, and I can't look back and blame anyone else Because I've done everything I didn't want to. I didn't want to look at myself and think, if only, if only I'd have done more. So, yeah, I think I started really angry at Hope and their staff for not giving me the opportunity. And then I thought, you know why? She's only one person can change it, and that's me.
Speaker 2:And I I've lived my life like that ever since. You know, just looking over your shoulder, because when you're a play, you think someone's gonna take your shirt. When you're a manager, someone wants your job. So you have to strive to be better every single day. No matter whether you're a 16 year old starting out, or whether you're 34 and you're at the end of your career, you're always striving to be better and now you may captain, and so I guess, jumping on from there, I was having you as an amazing play.
Speaker 1:And then you may captain in 2012, and how did that feel to lead? Lead your country, do you know what?
Speaker 2:I think it was one of my probably proudest moments ever, and not just because I've been made captain, but it was the same manager that in 2005, I didn't trusted me to play a single minute. So then, give me the captaincy. I think she said you've earned it, and she obviously valued the amount of hard work that I'd put in. And she also said to me you've got thick enough skin. And I learned very quickly what that meant. Yeah, and do you know what? Captaincy is an amazing job, but it's amazingly difficult as well, because you've got 22 other women you've got to try and lead and help, and all come from different backgrounds or having different experiences. Some are playing, some aren't playing. Frustrations come with that, but the minute you step out on that pitch and you're able to walk your country out, I don't think there is anything proud of them being able to do that.
Speaker 1:What kind of a captain were you Well.
Speaker 2:I learned very quickly what captain I didn't want to be, because I was made captain very early, at Chalton, when I was 20, and I just thought I had to ball and shout at everyone. And you quickly learn that's not the way. I was a captain that tried to find solutions, tried to get to know people. Also, I was a captain that had been on both sides.
Speaker 2:In 2005 I hadn't played a single minute, so I understood the frustrations. I understood the feelings. I wanted to know how they were and I wanted to be the captain that could support and help, try and make sure that I was the link between the manager and the players, but always make sure the players knew that my door was open, no matter what. You know, my roommate hated me for it because players would come and talk to me and come and ask advice and I was never a captain that would flower anything up. If you come to me for advice, I'm going to be really honest with you. I'm going to tell you maybe what you don't want to hear, but what you need to hear, and then I'm going to support you out the other side.
Speaker 1:And as a manager who coach, now, when you're looking for your captains, you've obviously learned a lot from your own experience. But do you know? When you're looking across a team, is it quite clear to you who is captain? Material, as it were?
Speaker 2:I think it's becoming ever more difficult, if I'm honest, because I don't think we generationally produce leaders. We don't give young people responsibility. We're in an era where everybody gets a medal for participating. No one wants to lose or win or be told anything. We don't empower young people. We want fast results for everything because our phones tell us we can get results really quickly. We don't necessarily have to work really hard for everything anymore. So it's becoming more difficult to find leaders. But I also think leaders lead in different ways. I wouldn't want anyone to mirror me, because that doesn't work for them, because they're not being authentic. I think leadership is, to them, always leading by example. I think if you're a leader, you have to set the standards, you have to lead the way on and off the pitch. But I also think, as a captain, what I encourage my captains to do is delegate, because otherwise you just get swamped and everybody comes to you and then your performance is on the pitch.
Speaker 1:Yeah you've got a play still.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've still got a play. So I'm like, yeah, be the best version of you on the pitch, and if that means you've got a delegate and you've got to get a team around you to help you, that's great. I have a leadership team at man United which has been voted for by the players, not by me. I don't pick it. It needs to be the people that players trust, and there's five of them, so the captain has support. Every player hopefully has someone they feel like they can feed into if they don't want to feed into me. And we have a two-way stream of feedback, because what I don't know, I don't know, and I've only got a job because of them. So I need to know what they need. I need to know what things maybe they're struggling with, what they enjoy, what they don't like. You know what's happening with the schedule. Is there things that they want to implement because it's their environment?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And do you think you could ever have considered a career outside of football post football and I think you talked about being a physio at some point. Was that a?
Speaker 2:I went to college when I was 16, I was doing my A-levels because I wanted to be a physio at that time. Obviously, there was no. We weren't professional, so there was no money in the game, so I had to have a job. So I went to college and I've got to be honest that, like I said, I wasn't that academic. I really struggled with biology and I was going away with England all the time and I just fell behind. So it's really hard. So I quit, and I've never quit anything, and it's one of the things I always say to players. I regret quitting. I do, but as soon as I quit I went straight out my coaching badges because I knew there was never going to be anything else for me.
Speaker 2:When I was getting older and my time was starting to creep up, I was absolutely petrified because I didn't know what I was going to do. I'm no good at anything other than football and I'm like, without football I don't actually know what I do. I always worked. I've worked in McDonald's, I've worked in Wimpy when I was younger, I've been working in betting offices. I've coached my entire career. I've coached pretty much full time since the age of 21. So I'm not new to it. You know I've been a head coach at Chelsea Academy. I was.
Speaker 2:When I was there I was driving a minibush, washing the kids, sorting the accommodation, sorting the education program, doing everything, and that's been great grounding for me. If I'm honest, I wouldn't know what I'd do without football. I've been an athlete mentor for the youth sports trust. I love that, love going around talking to young people and speaking about aspirations and trying to have an impact, because I don't think they have enough of that now, because I think young people think you're trajectory to success goes like that and it doesn't. There's so many bumps along the way and it's actually the bumps that make you. So yeah, I don't know what I'd do. Maybe there's not enough work in punditry and stuff, but you know that's something I've done in the past and love. But football's been my life, so I'd love to say in it.
Speaker 1:And when you were coaching at all that kind of time, did you see how the female coaches that inspired you? Why did your love for coaching develop?
Speaker 2:I think when I did my level two when I was 16, I loved learning about the game and I still like I'm 37, obviously I'm still new to this job. You know, I don't pretend that I'm perfect. I'm not. I'm still learning every day but I love learning, I love soaking as much up as I can and trying new things and making sure that I'm better for my players, because I want to be the best coach that I could possibly be.
Speaker 2:And obviously, you know, when I started playing for England, hope was manager of the entire program. She was the under 16, under 18 senior team and I think she did an awful lot for the women's game that she probably doesn't get enough credit for. So you know she was a real strong role model in that. And then she bought through other female coaches and I saw them coach in and I just thought, yeah, okay, and I had a lot of great male role models too, really, really good male role models in the game that you know just loved the game and most of the male role models did it for nothing just because they loved football.
Speaker 1:And are you coaching, or do you feel that you coach female players differently to the male players that you've coached in the past?
Speaker 2:No, I don't. My players will definitely tell you that I don't. I don't adapt the way I coach. I maybe adapt the conversations I have, yeah, off the pitch and the way I deal with them away from the grass. They're footballers on the grass, you know they are footballers and I'll be direct and I'll give them information, but I might have a more sensitive conversation away from the grass. I might need to get to know them a little bit more as people with them. I think Men are the same. Just because they don't talk as much, they still have the same needs. I think maybe women are slightly more emotional and I completely accept that and I allow them time for their emotions. I allow them time for their frustrations, but ultimately it always comes back to the team. So I've loved working with men. I've loved working with women.
Speaker 1:Football's football to me, Excellent, and you retired in 2018 and then went immediately to join Fulnevers England coaching team. So what was the experience like, moving from being a Linus to sort of off the other side, as their coach? Do you know it?
Speaker 2:was a bit strange, if I'm honest, but I felt like I'd already gone through the transition. I mean this in the most honest way I can, because when Mark Sanson came in and dropped me and took the captaincy off me and I barely played, I was still in every squad. I was still in the leadership group. I still had a lot of conversations with him around team selection. I sat in and analysed games with staff. So I felt like I had already maybe started that journey in my head, because I think when he came in I knew from the way things went that my England career playing career was pretty much over. But what I decided that I would make myself so valuable off the pitch that, no matter what, you'd always select me because I prided myself on being a good person. I prided myself on always putting the team first, always trying to help, and I was the person that if there was any red flags or anything going on, then I would try and put those fires out as a senior player, so the manager didn't have to deal with it. So I felt like I'd gone through that transition a little bit. And then, obviously, moe came in and she wanted to change things and then Anouphil was coming in and I just felt it was the perfect time for me to transition in terms of playing, and having the thought of losing your entire income overnight, when your entire family relies on solely your income, is absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 2:So when someone says to you, here's an opportunity, you take it. You know whether I was ready for it or not. I don't know. It was on your terms, wasn't it as well? It wasn't that you were. No, it wasn't. It was completely on my terms. Phil said to me you can carry on playing. You know, you can maybe do a dual role, and I was like, absolutely not. If I'm doing this, I'm doing it wholeheartedly and I'm doing it 100%, because I don't do anything by halves and I can't do anything by halves, so I would have killed myself trying to do both jobs. So it was the right time. My body had told me it was the right time too. I kept breaking down. I missed the entire Euro 2017 tournament for injury from there being there. So it was the right time for me to call it a day, and I didn't. I knew it was right because I didn't have any regrets.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic, isn't it? It'll be a position to be in, and what do you think has been the biggest challenge moving from being a professional athlete and INS to being a coach? Does it feel different in the way you're living your life?
Speaker 2:Way more hours, way more hours. I thought I was dedicated as an athlete and it doesn't even compare. You know, don't get me wrong I could do as many hours as I wanted, but if I'm going to do it properly, you know, these days I get into work at six and I'm home for seven at night most days, and that's a choice. Yeah, I get in early because I want to exercise. I leave late because I want to be doing things and I want to make sure that I'm really, really productive with the time that I've got. I'm on the grass every day. The hours are one of the biggest challenges.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest challenges was laying the boundaries down, because I was a teammate to some of these players. Some of them are my friends, you know, and you've still got to be objective. You've got to have honest conversations. You've got to. You've potentially got to put these people out of a contract and they're your friends. So laying the boundaries was really important for me and you know what? Being honest enough to know that with myself, to know that I've got so much more to learn and I'm going to make mistakes, but holding my hands up when I do and I haven't got everything right, I've made loads of mistakes, but that's why I've got good staff around me and that's why I communicate with my players constantly.
Speaker 2:I think what I've tried to do is think about all the things I wanted as a player you're not always going to get what you want but all the things I wanted as a player and try to implement them as a coach, because I think they're. Given the players their schedule three months in advance is an easy win. I used to have two kids and get mine the day before. So how do you plan? How do I let my players from overseas go and get cheap flights, because they can plan it? How do I let my players that want to go get the nails they're here going to see family, go and see loved ones. We don't pay these players enough money to not let them have a life outside of football, and that balance is so important.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic to hear. So I'm not wrong. After you took the job with the Lionesses for Fourneville, you've learnt about the opportunity at man United to be the first manager at man United Women. I feel like it must have been a dream job for you. Was there any hesitation in hearing about it, that you didn't throw your hat into the ring, as it were?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was. I've got to be honest, it was a real hesitation not to throw my hat in the ring because I didn't think I'd get it. If I'm honest, I knew there was a certain calibre of manager going for the job. I'd heard some names of real, real top managers that have been in the game going for the job, so I thought why on earth are they going to give it to me? So there was a reservation there.
Speaker 2:I was in a job, so it was a risk, but it was a very open and honest dialogue with Phil. It was fantastic, isn't it? Yeah? And he fully supported it and he knew even after three months I was getting really frustrated in the international setup because you're not coaching enough and I wanted to learn. And what four days every month, it wasn't enough for me, you know. So I wanted to be in it day to day. So we had a conversation.
Speaker 2:I went to Old Trafford, I put a presentation together on what I'd do and how I'd recruit and what my philosophy would be and how I'd build the club, and had an interview, which was probably the first time I had an interview in six, seven years. So that was daunting in itself, but I was just be myself, speak about compassion for the game. I know there's nobody that knows the game in this country better than me, so obviously I knew what players I could recruit as well. And I'll be honest, I walked out the door and it was my agent that told me, said how did it go? And I said I actually don't know. I was really unsure, I had no clue. And then obviously I got the call to say I got the job and how did you feel then?
Speaker 1:It's almost like excitement to have it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I was like oh, my God, right, we start pre-season in July and I was like when was it?
Speaker 2:When was it you appointed? End of May, and obviously we couldn't actually do anything until we had the license announced. And then when I got announced, I think it was like June the 8th. So from June the 8th to 8th of July, I had to recruit an entire full-time team 21 players, all my backroom staff and I was going on holiday for two weeks in that time and I couldn't cancel my holiday because I hadn't had a holiday in a long time with my kids. So I was like, well, I've got to go away and I'm lucky that I can call a lot of people in the game.
Speaker 2:I knew a lot of people I got recommended some fantastic staff. I met with them. It was a lot of hell of a lot of stress, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of worrying that we would get the contracts over the line, we would get that player, and I knew the type of players I wanted. I knew the type of squad that I wanted. I wanted a young squad to start with and I knew that, going in the championship, that, being full-time with the young squad, we could grow and develop together. A lot of train journeys, a lot of meetings with agents that's not my favourite part of the game, but we got there On 8th of July, we walked into pre-season and we were ready to go.
Speaker 1:That's extraordinary, is it really? And hers? Did you feel the massive pressure Because it was such a high profile, the club, the appointment, etc. In that first season? Did you feel immense pressure? Do you know?
Speaker 2:what I don't think I did, because I think I was so well supported by the club. I had so many people helping me, making things happen and making me feel like the club took the pressure off me. They said there's absolutely no pressure to get promoted. We're going to make mistakes as a club. We're going to see how this goes. We might make mistakes. We're going to try and do it the best we can. But they're new to the women's game. I had to educate them on quite a lot of things and then they had to educate me because I've never worked with contracts before, etc. So it was working to get a progress. So I think they took the pressure on me when I walked out at Tremiv for the first game.
Speaker 2:I think there was an element of this. Is it now? I'm in it? And then everyone's looking at me and I know there's an element of probably people wanting me to fail, probably people thinking I shouldn't have got the job, I hadn't earned my stripes. And I do remind people that whilst I was playing I'd coached 15, 16 years, you know. So it wasn't the first thing for me to do. I'd also been a player manager at Chelsea and if you've ever been a player manager, it's the most challenging thing you can ever do. But I trusted my players. I knew how hardworking they were, I knew the work we were doing on the grass. I knew the fantastic support I had at the club and we won our opening game 12-0.
Speaker 1:So that kind of took the pressure off a little, and that's fantastic to hear in terms of the support from the club, and you've recently resigned to 2022, which is amazing. So, in terms of what man United are doing to drive for the women's game, what do you think they're doing? Perhaps other clubs aren't doing? You're proud of the way they're leading.
Speaker 2:Well, I think for a start, we have the biggest global fan base as a club, which really helps the brand's huge. Could we do more? Yeah, of course we could. We know that. We know we could be doing more. We had the highest average attendances last year, even though being in the championship, but that's something this year that we've looked at right. Okay, now we're at a level we need to up our marketing. We need to up that. We need to make sure that we're out in the communities. We need to make sure that we're getting more people in the ground and I think with man United, people just associate with the badge and wherever we go, there's excitement. You know, when we play Chelsea, it's a sellout crowd. And but do we need to do more? Yeah, of course we do.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, I think man United try to take care of the whole player. So we have a well-being coach that's not employed by the club that looks after the players and the staff. It's really important because my staff are under pressure too. You know I have one-to-one with my staff and players every six weeks. We have an education department, a player care department. We have obviously a lot of support from the team that are wrapped around the internal team and you know, I just think they just try to look after the person and I think whoever comes to man United is put in the spotlight straight away, straight away. Their followers probably got thousands and there's an expectation. And the fans don't care that you've been in it 20 months, they don't care. If you lose, they don't care. You know they're going to come after you. So we try and educate them on what to, leave alone what not to read, because if I've asked you to do a job and you've done it, that's all that matters. You know, and if we fail, we all fail. If they walk out on the pitch and they lose, it's my responsibility because it means I haven't set them up right. You know, and I'll always say that to them. You know, and we're working progress. So I think man United do a really good job of. I think they market the team brilliantly.
Speaker 2:I think, if you look at our girls and something we've really tried to do and something I'm really really close with with the campaigns that go out, because I don't want the girls to approach you all, I want them to look like strong, athletic women that are playing football, that are working hard, that are grafting, so we try and stay away from. Yeah, fun is fun and we have fun. We have a lot of fun at the football club. We try and do different things in terms of taking them away from the pitch every now and again.
Speaker 2:Once a month, we do a task called Team United, where it's nothing to do with football. It's stretching ourselves, comfort zones, having a laugh together, communication, working as a team. So we get to, we bring our barriers down, different people come out and lead in different ways and we get to know each other as people. So I think, in terms of the club, I feel more supported than I've ever done at any other club. I think they market the girls really really well, but at the same time, they keep the pressure off the players, which is really important.
Speaker 1:It's fantastic, it's like a dream, isn't it? And you've been quite not as spoken, but you've talked to the past about stadiums, about whether we should be, whether you would want to be playing in Old Trafford on a weekly basis, or whether that's not quite the time yet. So what are your thoughts there on that?
Speaker 2:for the women's game now, yeah, I think I've been quite clear this season. Obviously we opened at the Etienne. It was a great experience, great crowd, but kind of set the objective for the club to say, until we're getting five, six, seven, eight and we're selling out Lee, then why would we go to Old Trafford? Because I've looked at all the games this season where they've played in big stadiums there's no payoff the next week at the stadium. So it's a great occasion, fantastic for the players, but it needs to be the right game with the right leading so that we can get a fantastic, because if you have 10,000, 20,000 in Old Trafford it's soulless.
Speaker 2:So if we're going to do it, let's do it and let's make sure we break all records. Let's do it for the right game on the right occasion at the right window, so everybody wants to come. But then let's make sure we make the most of that occasion in terms of data collection and make sure we get the fans to come back to Lee. So I think they're great occasions. It just hasn't been. I just don't think it would have been necessary in our first season in the WSL to do it. It might be something we'll get next year.
Speaker 1:And moving on to other slightly contentious subjects. But the refereeing of the game and it isn't just you that's called us out, so that quality of referees for the female game, where do you feel that might change in the future?
Speaker 2:Listen, I can't hide away from the fact that I've been outwardly outspoken about it, but it's probably, it is important. But you know what? It's not the referee's fault and it's not fair, you know, and maybe I've been unfair on them by criticising them because actually we've gone professional, they're not. So that's where they're in lines, you're probably. They're in lines, you're probably. Yeah, they're in lines, you're probably. So we're asking someone who's gone and done a full-time job, worked nine to five, probably, gone home, sorted the kids out to then come and run the line and get a view of yourself me for 90 minutes.
Speaker 2:So you know, I think there has to be more investment, you know, and that's FA responsibility, potentially club responsibility, to make sure that there's more funds going into refereeing, to make them better, to make sure they have more opportunities to train, because we have a professional game but we have amateur people controlling it and I think that's where the problems have been and I think I can't hide it. The game does deserve better and the players deserve better and they work so hard and that's where, you know, I think, your fine frustrations in head coaches and players is. We're in it every day. We know how hard it is, we know the work that goes on and also people's jobs are on the line now. Yeah, your injuries and yeah, absolutely so. You know there's going to be more emotion based around it, but I think we all have a duty to make sure that we try and help referees in terms of investment Excellent.
Speaker 1:And you say I'm incredibly passionate about creating a legacy for girls and obviously two of your children are girls and I've got three daughters. I know where you're coming from, but has having daughters really amplified that for you, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. It's massively re-amplified that. I just think football has such an opportunity to solve many social issues and I think equality is definitely one of those. I'm not saying we should get equal pay yeah, not yet. I think the American team is a very different situation and they should have more money not equal pay anyway.
Speaker 2:But I think for me, having daughters and having a little boy and that's just what I say everyone says you're going to raise it's about raising him to know that, no matter what, they're equal, they deserve the same opportunities, they deserve the same pay. They should be able to go for the same job and if they've got the same job, they should earn the same money, you know. So I think it has definitely made me look at the world differently, because I've never felt not equal, because I'm not bothered about anything like that. I should be more bothered because I'm like I played football. I have to pay to play. But I'm also a realist. We get 2,700 in our ground. They get 80,000 at Old Trafford.
Speaker 2:Sky paid millions and millions of pounds for broadcast rights, bt Sport don't. So I'm a realist. So I know that women's games at the moment run at a loss. So, until we fill the stands until people want to pay more money to broadcast it, until there's more commercial sponsorship coming into the clubs, then we can talk about equal pay and what we deserve. But I still think it's massive in terms of the girls being role models for young. I just want my little girls to never grow up with any barriers and I had to fight so many in so many different ways just to play sport and I don't want that for them.
Speaker 1:And would you want your son to play football? Do you want him in the men's game?
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you know what? We take them to football on a Sunday morning. I very rarely get to go to our game day, but when I do get to go I love going and watching them.
Speaker 1:What do you like on the sideline as a parent?
Speaker 2:Very quiet, very quiet. I'm waiting for them to say can you come and coach? I want to be, because I've seen those parents have coached to grassroots football. I want to be the parent that sits in the chair, says nothing and just says Thanks to coach.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, because they're out there in the freezing cold for nothing and I want to sit in the car with my kid on the way home and say, did you have a good time? And that should be all that matters. I don't want to coach him, so I'd love him to get involved, I'd love my girls to get involved, but I just want them to be active. So we're trying everything. They do Gymnastics, football, they do swimming, they do drama, they've done dance and I'm like do you know? Whatever you want to do, if you like it, go do it and have a good go at it. It's lovely to hear.
Speaker 1:And how are you managing the balance of raising three small kids and being a mum and working in such a high pressure and, I guess, those long hours as well that you alluded to earlier?
Speaker 2:I manage it terribly. I love your honesty. Yeah, terribly I am. I'm trying to work on it and that's the wellbeing coach actually works with me and we try to set schedules and plans and it's about planning ahead. But unfortunately, football things change so quickly and you think you can get home at five and something happens and you're stuck there. It's a guilt oh, I thought that was a little bit of a and it's when your kids say to your mummy you're never home and it's like a dagger in the heart.
Speaker 1:It doesn't get any better when they get to be teenagers oh great.
Speaker 2:Look at what's that. They can just talk more.
Speaker 1:They know which buttons to press.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it is the guilt, but I have to remind myself why I'm doing it, because I'm doing it for them. I'm doing it to give them a better life. I'm doing it to set them up. I'm doing it to show them that mummy works and there's hopefully a great role model for them. But I'm a guilty year, but I make sure that I set certain times aside that when I'm home, phones are away. I hate that, mummy, your phone's still on. I'm like put your phone down. But I just think if you're going to achieve anything, great work-life balance doesn't exist.
Speaker 1:It doesn't. It's enjoying the bones, isn't it? It's a really definite choice to come out as gay in 2015, when you're England captain. I feel such a fantastic to use your platform in that way and how much that must have positively impacted so many girls and boys, and I remember you saying at the time that you're a gay woman in football. That doesn't mean to say that every woman playing football is gay. Why did you feel it was important? I understand, but why did you feel it was important to make that point at?
Speaker 2:the time. I hate stereotypes and that's one of the reasons I didn't come out for so long, because it was that of course she's gay, she plays football. I'm like half my friends in football are married to men and I hate pigeonholing and I hate stereotypes and that was why it was so important to me to say, yeah, I am gay, but it's not because I play football and I didn't want that stereotype for all my friends in football. Even I just think it's so wrong. It's such a throwaway comment that's not fair. So I felt it was the right time.
Speaker 2:In terms of being England captain and using my platform for a positive, was I petrified? Absolutely. Did I know what was going to happen? No, I got probably 98% was so positive and the amount of people that reached out to me and said thank you and I remember one specific parent had messaged me to say thanks so much. My daughter came down last night and had a conversation with me and that was really really, really nice and there are the moments where you go. That's why I did it, because it made that young girl have the courage to go and speak to her mum and not live in fear and in a place where, as a parent, I don't want to know only half of my little girl, I want to know all of her, and being able to influence someone like that was quite a thing for me. Obviously, you get negatives you do, you're going to get that and people have their own mind and their own agenda and their own opinions but their opinions, they don't matter to me.
Speaker 1:And do you feel I've worked a lot of work within women's team sport that there is still you've talked about there, aren't you you play rugby that there is still that sense of homophobia almost towards women's sports and I feel the danger is that it puts teenagers, girls, off at a time when they're really sensitive to what people think too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. I think if you're 13, 14 and there's a stereotype, well I don't want to be called a lesbian so I'm not going to do the sport and that's it's unfair. You know there is a lot of gay women in sport. There is, you know, statistically there is, and it's actually because it's more accepting. But it doesn't mean that there's not a lot of heterosexual women. There is. There's an awful lot and I doubt. I think it could. I think you're right. I think the stereotypes I think the stereotypes are being butch pit people off. I think the stereotypes being gay pit people off and I'm like it's not seeing. It's more so in, probably, football and rugby. There's a lot of gay women in tennis that don't have the same stereotype of being butch because they wear a white dress and they go out in the court and play tennis. But there's still strong athletic women. So I hate the stereotypes. I'm like just let people do their job.
Speaker 1:And it's about changing societal attitudes about what is feminine and strong, isn't it? You know? Let's celebrate strength, and power and all those things you talk to, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think you can be strong athletic. You can still look beautiful in a dress. So it shouldn't you know, you shouldn't absolutely.
Speaker 1:You launched Fabulous Book earlier this year. Last year. What year were you? 2020, last year. End of last year Wasn't very slick, was it Cool change in the game. Can you tell a little bit about that and why you voted?
Speaker 2:I spoke to some publishers a couple of years ago now and we spoke. We thought about lots of different ideas for a book. One was going to be a kids fiction book.
Speaker 2:Another one was going to be the idea we came up with now and I thought it was a fantastic idea because when I was growing up, if I wanted to think about myself as a footballer, I couldn't see myself in book form at all. You know, and I think I'm so grateful to all the pioneers that went before me that made the game what it is, the pioneers that are in the game now that are making what it is, and I thought they've never been celebrated and people don't know enough about the players in the world, don't know enough about the journey that the women's football has gone on, and I thought this was a great idea to make women's football more visible and give those little girls something to see and believe in and to celebrate the players that have gone and are present now. That are fantastic, because there's enough. You can go into any book shop and pick up a book about a male player. There's very rarely you can go in and pick one up about female players, and I love that.
Speaker 1:you've got other, you've got broadcasters, you've got other people working within the women's game, as well as the athletes too.
Speaker 2:I think it just. The thing I'm keen on as well is you know, even as a player, when you step out the game, people go. Are you going to go into coaching? Well, not everybody wants to be a coach, but there's so many more avenues that are open to women now, and that sounds terrible to even say that this should always be open to women. It's a job, you know, whether it's broadcast, whether it's media, whether it's journalism, there's photography, yeah. Whether it's PR, yeah, someone's got to do it. There's so many more, and I think women are brilliant at their jobs and I think I always think, you know, I love having women in my team, but I love having men in my team too, because I think if you have men and women together, you have a much better decision making process, and I wouldn't have one or the other as a single identity. So, you know, I think football now, fortunately, is open and it's doors and catching up with society.
Speaker 1:I was just in closing a little bit more about coaching, because I guess that's where you are and who you are. So I do feel there's a lack of women still at that very highest level and performance directors across lots of sports Olympic and Paralympic sports too. So why do you think that is still now?
Speaker 2:I said yeah, I was looking at the Olympic figures the other day and I found it quite shocking actually, in terms of the amount of female coaches. Yeah, it's not a lot at all. I think, first of all, it's opportunity. I think who's doing the job interview? Who's interviewing the people? Probably men. A lot of it, I think a lot of it's come from in terms of there's more women coming into the game now. So women's games, perceptions changed, so it's changing perceptions of female coaches and I think what's the girls? Who's just been in the NFL?
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, I know she is, but I can't remember her name.
Speaker 2:But yeah, she's amazing 49ers, absolutely incredible and it made me step up and go wow. But it makes you step up because she's the only one and you go. Well, it's sport if you know it and you're dedicated. It shouldn't matter whether you're male or female, but I think it's opportunity. It's probably the fear that a woman might want to take nine months off at some point from maternity, which you know happens. That's life. That's why we're all here. I think it's probably.
Speaker 2:It goes back years where women haven't been in it, and also there's a probably. If I go from my experiences, every coaching course I've ever been on, I'm the only woman in the room. Unless you're a strong person, it's daunting, it's absolutely daunting, so it's putting themselves through it. It's then women have stereotypically a different role to play as well. Are they mum at home at the same time as trying to be a coach and looking after their family? So I think there's loads of reasons, but I think that it has to change. It has to change in terms of investment into coaching, giving women opportunities. So you have the Rooney Rule in America. Why can't there be a similar rule for females?
Speaker 1:And finally, for girls coming through and listening to this podcast and thinking about a career in coaching what advice, what gems of advice would you give?
Speaker 2:Get out and do it. First of all, get yourself on a course to get yourself the opportunities. Get out, find a local team. Whatever you want to do, just immerse yourself in it, because I think once you're in it and you start coaching, the opportunities get better. It's the fear of getting out there. Take the local team, take the grassroots team. See what opportunities there are to do it.
Speaker 2:Watch as much of the game as you can. Get yourself in as many coaching courses as you can. Surround yourself with people that coach. Go and learn off others as well. You know I'm never too proud to say I'd go and watch anybody, because I think you can learn so much off other people in terms of the way they are as a person, their manner. You know maybe their drills they do, the way they coach their players. You can learn so much. So you've got to immerse yourself in what you want to do and you've got to be prepared sometimes to be uncomfortable doing it, because you might be on a course on your own as a female, you might be in an environment where it's all men. You might have to struggle for a little while and maybe learn as you go and make mistakes and be okay with making mistakes, because we all make mistakes.
Speaker 1:Thanks to Casey for sharing so much about her life and career. I have no doubt she'll be a massive inspiration to many young women coming into the sport. Thanks also to Barclays for their huge support for the Game Changers podcast, which enables us to take the stories of these fearless women in football to an entirely new audience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, you can make sure you don't miss out on future episodes by subscribing to the Game Changers, and it would be fantastic if you could leave us a rating or a review. Wherever you listen to your podcast, it does make a massive difference.
Speaker 1:You can find out about all my guests at promoteprcom slash Game Changers and find me across social media at Sue Ansdis, or find the Game Changers on Twitter, facebook and Instagram. Thanks for all your feedback. It is really wonderful to hear how much people are enjoying the Game Changers. Finally, I'd also like to thank Sam Walker from what Goes on Media, who's been a really brilliant executive producer for the Game Changers podcast. Next week I'm talking to Hope Powell CBE, the trailblazing former England women's football manager and the first woman ever to be awarded a UEFA Pro license.
Speaker 2:You're so consumed, I think, at the time, about just trying to do a good job. I think my first thing was I cannot fail this. I cannot fail.
Speaker 1:The Game Changers fearless women in football.