This episode was originally released as part of Series 1, on July 16, 2019.
Team GB’s most decorated female Olympian with 5 Olympic rowing medals (including Gold at London 2012) Katherine is now the Chair of UK Sport.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
This episode was originally released as part of Series 1, on July 16, 2019.
Team GB’s most decorated female Olympian with 5 Olympic rowing medals (including Gold at London 2012) Katherine is now the Chair of UK Sport.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello, I'm Sue Anstos, the host of the Game Changers, with a quick message before this episode. As we've had thousands of new listeners in 2023, we thought we'd take this small break between series 15 and 16 to share some of our back catalogue. We've loved listening back to these earlier episodes and hope that you also enjoy hearing from these incredible leaders in women's sport. And while I'm here, don't forget that the whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to. In series 13 of the podcast, every episode is me reading a chapter of the book.
Speaker 1:Now it's time for the Game Changers. Hello and welcome to the Game Changers podcast, where you'll hear from extraordinary, fearless women in sport. I'm Sue Anstos and in this episode, it's Dame Catherine Granger, Team GB's most decorated Olympian, with five rowing medals, including that emotional gold from London 2012,. Catherine now sits as the hugely respected chair of UK sport. As you can imagine, especially as we enter this incredible summer of sport in the UK, catherine's a super busy woman, so I was thrilled that she made the time to meet with me at the UK sport offices in London. I began by taking her back to her childhood in Glasgow and asking about her earliest memories of sport.
Speaker 2:I lived in this really lovely little neighbourhood so a big sister who was the year old to me at school, so I'm really tagged on with her and we had the sort of back street behind our house. It was a dead end. So we had loads of kids our age who just lived in the same little street. So after school every day everyone was out there running, playing football, I don't know hide and seek, rounders, anything. We just were always always outside and active. And then at school, just yeah, we again had a School was really close to me and we also had a sort of sports centre not far to walk to and we were all my sister and I were always sort of taken to swimming classes or badminton things or we were always doing some stuff.
Speaker 1:So I just remember sport just being part of my life from a really early time, and do you think you had a competitive edge from the start? Or was it just enjoying sport for sport then?
Speaker 2:I pretend I didn't have a competitive edge, but my parents always put me right on this and I think I saw my sisters as a natural competitor to me. So she was a bit bigger and a bit older and a bit better at everything. So she was quite an easy person for me to try and compete against and everything we did. And she would start a club or a class or something at school and I would kind of go along as a younger sister and so I kind of in a way got into things a year earlier than I might have otherwise. So that kind of was a really nice start and doing things and trying to learn and compete at the same level as my big sister.
Speaker 1:And you did karate as a school girl. And when did you get your black belt? How old were you when you got that?
Speaker 2:I would have got that just before my 17th birthday. Yeah, absolutely loved it. That was at secondary school and we had a brilliant art teacher who in lunchtime, a couple of times a week at spare lunchtime, would take karate classes and just did it because he was a very, very senior black belt and loved it and had even classes with sort of more grown ups and during the day sort of did lunchtime classes with the kids at school. And again I started because my big sister started first. Did she get her black belt? She never did, because she was a brilliant athlete but she got quite bad damage to her knees quite early. She stopped doing it and then I continued and I went from my. I was the first pupil Mr Davis had who went from white belt to black belt while at school. So yeah, it was good for both of us.
Speaker 1:And I've heard you to comment in terms of all the things that you learned from sport as a young person. So do you think some of what you learned within the martial arts element of sport has stayed with you through your sporting career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I still this part made it still, you know, wish I'd time to do more martial arts. It's an incredible, it was incredible sport to fall into a reasonably young age. It's got this brilliant sort of discipline to it and respect and very, very good for flexibility and coordination of body and all the sort of things you learn instinctively because you're trying to do something else through sport but you're picking all those skills up. But it does. It has this real sort of discipline to it, which I think is brilliant. As for young people, and when I moved into my other sports after that, it was a huge sort of incredible grounding basis to then build everything else on, because my body was really, you know, really new.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was amazing and I know we talk a lot about role models and the female sporting role models who were your not necessarily sports, but your role models growing up?
Speaker 2:I think I mean I think now we always put role models as these huge, big figures on the big global stage. But when I was growing up, you know it was my big sister, it was the teachers. All my P teachers were female and they were amazing and actually, with you know, as I've got older and you look back and you probably never gave them the kind of recognition they deserved at the time, for you know their level of engagement and extra time they were putting in around classes. I think teaching is such a hard profession and you know you've got you know you've got tired people who aren't always willing to get out there and get muddy in their fields and things. And I had some really special teachers who just had that energy and passion for what they taught and I think that's quite infectious.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking I might need to do a new series of podcasts with the game changers that are PE teachers. I hear so much from people that we talk to. It is those PE teachers that get them started on that journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I think you're often I speak to people now grown ups about sports, how they feel about it some love and some hate and some of a very strange relationship with it. It often goes back to school. So if you've had a really good influence at school, you hold on to that love of sport all your life. If you've had a bad relationship at school, then you sort of it takes a long, long time to ever want to get past that. So I think teachers and I think that's across all subjects I'm a massive fan of teachers generally. I think they do they do recognize and ignite passion in people and see potential. And you know, I think a lot of time I didn't have massive confidence as a kid at school and when teachers believe in you and see stuff in you then it really helps. So I think certainly growing up they were kind of my role models.
Speaker 1:And were there sporting?
Speaker 2:can you think back across your teenagers, whether athletes or female athletes, that you were aware of, that you'd seen on television or performing that you yeah, I suppose I was trying to think when I first was kind of aware of the Olympics and stuff and you know, I was the people like Sally Gunnell and I suppose you know Jane Tarvel, with Tarvel and Dean. It's the big moments of sort of iconic sort of sporting celebration that kind of stays in your memory and yeah, I think it's lovely because, as I've started to work in sport, you get to meet some of those heroes and it's incredible, incredible. I spent an amazing time with Mary Peaches at Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast and you know, seeing some of the footage when she won her Olympic gold and just the joy that she had in sort of winning in sport, it's amazing. I think we're very lucky to have this incredible history of a great woman.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And in order to row, you didn't start rowing until you were 17 at university. What was it that made you first get into the water at university? On the water, not in the water. Definitely not in the water.
Speaker 2:Just chance, I was at the University kind of sports fair during Freshers Week where it is all about joining new clubs and trying new things, and I had some great advice before I went, just saying try and do as much as you can, even things you don't know or you don't like or you don't know if you'll be good at.
Speaker 2:Just try stuff.
Speaker 2:I was actually with another friend who wanted to go and speak to the rowing club and I didn't, and I had an incredibly impressive, you know quite an older student who was working at the University stall who kept coming over and kept saying to me you should come along, you'd love this sport, you should get involved and I think you should try three times before I grudgingly took the information and went along for the first meeting and still didn't think I would necessarily do it as a sport or didn't really feel drawn to it.
Speaker 2:Naturally, I went to the first meeting and went to the first few sessions to try and before I fell in love with the sport I absolutely fell in love with the people I did it with. They were just incredible women who you know, all sort of first year students or first second year students who were just brilliant characters you know, some of my best friends to this day, who are just you know, were driven and competitive, but fun and engaging and dynamic and all quirky and just a joy to spend time with, and that environment was what hooked me, long before the sport did.
Speaker 1:But when you did get on the water, did you know, did you feel like it was the right thing for you, quite instantaneously.
Speaker 2:You know, it's not like this moment of epiphany when, I sat in the boat and thought this is my future. No, I didn't. You know, I wasn't. I was I because of the stuff I'd done at school. I was, you know, physically, you know, a good potential athlete, but I had no technique to speak of and it took me a good couple of years to really learn the craft. Well, well enough.
Speaker 1:It's one of the things I've heard about rowing that's such a positive leveler almost. I think someone equated it to the learning musical instrument, or we all come to it and we all can't do it to begin with. So rowing isn't something that you sit in a boat and immediately you're balanced.
Speaker 2:In a way, it's not. To me, it was an instinctly natural sort of movement. I mean, now it really is, now it's so obvious to me and it's just. You know, I do without thinking, but when you first go in it is incredibly technical and it doesn't look it it looks like a very simple movement, repeated over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:There's so many different sort of parts to it and you are coordinating your whole body at the same time doing slightly different things left and right and front and back. And yeah, I find it really quite tricky but yeah, I guess I loved. I love learning it. It is an absolute craft to try and learn. And you know, even when I did it for 20 years internationally, I was still to the very last day I competed at the Olympic Games. So trying to learn that craft.
Speaker 1:I think a bit of a meteorite rise through those four years that by the end of your university time you were representing your country. Did it feel like it was super fast as you experienced it, or was it just a natural progression through?
Speaker 2:Now, even in those four years you know I kind of talk about my whole career and every athlete will it's a bit of a roller coaster. You've got amazing highs and lows, but even those four years was exactly the same. I had a great first year as a novice, because you're just novice athletes running together and you can get by, and not much skill and talent, and we did. And then in my second year I went to the senior team and that's a very different ball game and there were some very, very good athletes in that senior team and I was right at the bottom of it. You know, I really wasn't showing great potential there and it took me, it took some great sort of volunteer coaches and also some of the older students to help me to sort of achieve potential.
Speaker 2:So I had a very tough, wise second year of that dawning realisation that it's not going to come. Naturally it's going to take a lot of work to get this sport right. And then by third year, the end of my third year, I rode for Scotland and then the end of my fourth year, I went forward to the British trials. So third and fourth year went quickly but yeah, it wasn't a kind of from day one this is bound to be my future.
Speaker 1:And that's an important message, isn't it? I've got three daughters that have all rode a little bit. But that whole hoping to master it so quickly but actually recognising it is about persistence and time and ups and downs and so on. I think sometimes there is that desire to get in and crack it straight off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think we all want that instant gratification thing. And you know, the one of the lovely things about sport and rowing is one of the good examples is that it's you know, the key to it is really resilience and persistence, and you know, the kind of the good days are good but then the next day won't be as good. And because it is, there's a real art and craft, to its very subtleties, to the stroke and the movement. So you will take a lifetime to really perfect it and that's one of the massive attractions now but at the time it can be frustrating, but actually every single person will say the same.
Speaker 2:The reward is in the sort of trying to get that right in itself.
Speaker 1:And it seems there's a few students and others who went to university and then became a founder rowing at university. Is that still possible today? Do you think that someone attending university this autumn could end up on an Olympic team in the future in rowing? Do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. It's a sport Because it's got a massive sort of power endurance base. It means that you will develop it. Almost you know you can develop that base through most of your life. So a lot of people come to it from other sports. You know a lot of people with swimming backgrounds or rugby backgrounds or I mean I came from martial arts who have natural physiques and natural sort of talents in sport will be able to move into rowing quite easily in new late teens.
Speaker 1:So it's definitely not a stopper. It's a firing thought, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's never too late. I went on to it for another couple of decades after that, so you know it is a sport that you really can take your time to develop and to get right.
Speaker 1:And obviously your sporting story is so dramatic and, I guess, a real story of persistence, a journey of persistence, I wonder if we could talk through, if we can, to start with those first three silver medals I know I'm not sure it's a story you tell many times, but tell again for us but perhaps to start with Sydney and obviously in the quarter at the time there and losing just by one second, but perhaps talk us through.
Speaker 2:Sydney was a complete success. Sydney wasn't losing anything. Sydney was, you know, in the whole women's team in the history of British rowing never won any medals at the Olympic games. So Sydney was all about could we get on to the podium? And you know we had a really strong team. But it's hard when you're trying to do something that's never been done. There's no sort of natural pathway, there's no really guidance. We had incredible role models in the men's team.
Speaker 2:Steve Redgrave was still competing and Matthew Pintzent and you know there was a big focus on sort of rowing because of Steve going for his fifth gold medal. And we got to race the next day and we were in the final, the six books in the final. But we knew we wanted to be one of the top three and, to be honest, at that point a medal, any colour of medal, was as good as any of the other colours. It wasn't that. It was. Just getting on the podium was crucial and we did. I mean I was convinced we'd won the bronze medal when we crossed the line because it was a photo finish between bronze and silver. So we won this over by 800th of a second, which was tiny, tiny margins. But just getting on that podium. It was the joy we had on that day. If someone had come and given us the gold on top, no one could have been happier.
Speaker 2:We're already full capacity of that silver medal and all the photos of that day is beautiful. It's beautiful Australian sunshine and it's just a fabulous medal in ceremony. And it was the first. It was the first, it was the breakthrough medal and the brilliant sort of thing that that created was this belief that it was possible in the whole team. Suddenly it had been done. It wasn't a what, if and maybe one day it was a kind of reality now that the British woman could win the medals in this sport. So we saw real change and sort of drive and focus. And also it all coincided with the wasn't coincidental at all with the investment from the National Lottery and suddenly athletes could train full time and could have access to great facilities and we got a coach for the women's team and all these things sort of came in that suddenly you could take the sport very seriously and have realistic ambitions of Olympic games not just getting there but actually winning medals there. And we had a brilliant, successful team in Athens where Sydney was the first medal of any colour. Suddenly we had three medals in Athens from the women's team and every boat that went came back with the medal and that was just unheard of. So the momentum really just kept building right the way through to Beijing.
Speaker 2:And the silver medal in Athens for me was a huge achievement because actually it was the first we had some real. I was in a different boat then. There was some really rocky times leading up to it. You won a pair there with the calf bishop and we won the World Championship the year before. That was our first world title, but I had an injury that year and we had massive challenges along the way and you suddenly realise how many. Just because you have achieved in the past, it doesn't then make it easier. You will always meet more and more obstacles and what you get better at is overcoming them. So this silver medal in Athens is one I'm personally very proud of, both Kat and I, but it was a second silver, so it didn't have the pure surprise and joy of Sydney, but it was still a fabulous result.
Speaker 2:Whereas you go on four more years to Beijing and by then we really felt we were getting consistent results and I was back into a cord and we'd won three world titles back to back.
Speaker 2:So we really were getting familiar with winning and repeated winning.
Speaker 2:So you kind of get some brilliant habits get built in and you kind of get the confidence building and everything falls into place and it really felt that Beijing would be the first time we'd have a very realistic chance of winning the Olympic Games, which hadn't been done before in rowing and it kind of, you know, you want everyone to be fit and well and healthy and in the right mindset and we had all that and that was the hardest, you know, final, of all the ones I've done, and that we did the lead the Olympic field for a long, long way and then we just got beaten by the Chinese in the dying moments and that one was just completely devastating because of the expectation and our own expectations as much as everyone else's, and there's a real sense of loss and I mean disappointment doesn't do it justice.
Speaker 2:You sort of we all felt we'd let everyone and everything down. You're part of a massive team by then. You're not just the British team, you're the Olympic team and you know the, you know the nation's watching and hoping and expecting and you feel we had it in our hands and we let it go and it was really hard to come to terms with that result and the sort of the medal that day just felt like evidence of failure. Rather than you know, it felt like we'd lost something rather than won anything, and that's a horrible, horrible way to sort of be on the podium coming to terms with that moment.
Speaker 1:Watch that video again this weekend. I mean it with my daughter too. It's just, you know, to see the distress there. But not everybody had been to previous Games is there, so I guess for some of them that was their first Olympic medal. But yeah, as a unit it's still felt so distressing that you hadn't achieved goals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for three of us it was our third Olympic Games, so we'd had different experiences across those games. For Annie, she was in the boat. She'd just come into the boat sort of quite recently before that. So she did great success with us which was part of that World Championship winning cruise. So she did a great time leading up to it.
Speaker 2:And this is our first Olympic Games and you know I know my first Olympic Games Sydney experience couldn't have been better.
Speaker 2:I was, you know it was utter joy, like I said, to stand on the Sydney podium and you absolutely want that for everyone who goes, especially the first time, because it is such a such incredible achievement to get to Olympic Games, never mind medal at your first Olympic Games. And my biggest regret from that whole sort of Olympic regatta was the result for Annie, probably of all people, because she deserved, you know, she was a world champion, she deserved to be a very Pride Olympic silver medalist and she was standing next to us in floods of tears as well, but with disappointment because she knew as much as we all did that we felt we could have won that if we'd got it absolutely right. So it's a tough one. It's a tough one for, you know the others who'd been sort of through our ups and downs sort of had earned. You know the hard way, how good a medal can be and how disappointing. And you felt Annie for the first time should have just seen the joy of a medal and it was a shame she didn't.
Speaker 1:And you've talked, I know, of a long time, of almost overcoming that disappointment. Any advice to athletes facing that loss and disappointment when it is just a second or two, you know reliving that moment and thinking what could it be and how have you learned to deal and cope with that?
Speaker 2:I mean, it's like other huge disappointments in life. There's no quick fix. You know it helps if you've got the right people around you. You know, I'd brilliant family, I've got brilliant friends who were incredibly supportive and none of them could fix it and none of them made it okay, but they were there and so I didn't feel completely alone and also it just takes time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just that great it is, and it will catch you out when you at least expect it. And I thought I'd be. I was fine some days and suddenly it would catch me out of nowhere or someone would make a comment that I hadn't expected and you know, it just felt very, very raw for a very long time and there it is. Just one of those things of growing up. You just, you know, you know it, it's a. It's a the patient's game of. Ultimately you will be okay and you'll be fine, but you, you have to go through the harder days and you know I'd certainly say I wouldn't wish it on anyone but I ultimately was better for having had that experience and surviving it.
Speaker 2:In that moment it's hard to know that, but yeah, you don't, and I wouldn't say to anyone who's going through that sort of disappointment or grief that, oh, don't worry, you'll be better for it, because it's not. You don't understand that at the time it's not what you want to hear, it's not helpful, but ultimately you are better for it. We're all you know. I think the one amazing thing about all humans is this incredible sort of survival ability of you find a way to get through and you take it one day at a time and ultimately you are stronger, having dealt with those big emotional experiences.
Speaker 1:So so on then to the more positive. I guess that that next stage of to London at Dorney and a home crowd with Anna. What's always fascinating to me a bit about that is that fabulous partnership that you had with her, like a true partnership, and so I guess in the morning you're at Oakley Court, quite close to where I live in the morning, and so I guess what was up with that preparation ahead of that? Did that feel any different to previous games in terms of the waking up that morning?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and partly we did an amazing. We had three years growing together. You know we won absolutely everything we've ever done together, so that that gives you incredible confidence in the boat, but also trust in each other. We, you know we loved each other's company, anna, and Off the Water, I absolutely knew she was the best person in the world to have in the boat on that day and she felt the same and and it's in it. You know, we, we knew each other so well that we didn't. You know we spoke all the time, but you know a lot didn't need to be said through words and you know that there is that moment the alarm goes off and you don't need to. You know you don't need the alarm because you're already awake, to be honest, but you don't need to be reminded of what that day is. We've talked about that day for a long, long time and it was finally the 3rd of August and the alarm goes off and you realize this is it, and and there is that moment that you will go through. You know that day you will now share together, that, whatever happens, whether it's the result you want or not, you will be forever, you know, bonded by that. This one day we would share.
Speaker 2:And I think, ultimately for both of us, we just felt it was a such a privilege and such an opportunity that we had. We were in the best boat we could imagine. We were in front of a home crowd and in a summer of sport that you know lasted through the Olympics onto the Paralympics, where you felt the whole nation were just, you know, thrilled by and excited and warmed by and inspired. And you know there's a real, there's a lovely I don't know positivity to the whole country. There was a real sense of, you know, anything's possible and everyone wants to be part of something together. You know it was an incredibly united sort of sensation throughout everywhere I went. And you know, in the middle of all this incredible sort of all the bells and whistles and that the Olympic Games can bring to a city and a nation, you know, at the heart of it it's just, you know, ordinary people trying to do the best job they can in the sports that they love. And you know we got to Dorney Lake and Lake. We trained at loads and loads and loads of times.
Speaker 2:But this was kind of always going to be different, the race of your Olympic final, and I think we felt ready. I think we felt you are ready to go. I wish I could do it another day or another couple of days, but ultimately we believed we had everything we needed between the two of us and I worked with our coach, paul, and it was there, wasn't. We didn't need to say a lot, but the words we had were just incredibly honest. You know, when you have that amazing partnership, you can be incredibly honest and truthful with each other and I think we just looked forward to it. I think that was one thing. There were still nerves, but there was no dread. There was kind of you know, really want to get going on this one and deliver the result. We think we can.
Speaker 1:And did that feel different to previous games in terms of waking up and going in that morning? Did you feel calmer or they all feel different, to be honest, they all feel different.
Speaker 2:You're at different stage, different age, different experience, different knowledge, exactly and everything. It should always feel different. But yeah, that one probably you can never, ever, ever be certain about any sort of major race but that one felt the most kind of just. We felt we did an incredible ownership of that event, partly because it was the home games as well. This is, you know. We felt this is our lake, this is our, our cry, this is our grounds. Everything is coming into play for us and we can own this one, and so there was probably a much more. You know, just can't wait to get started on this one. This one's ours, ready for the taking.
Speaker 1:And I guess just that joy as you've talked before of all that had gone before in that moment of winning gold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it, you know, is every single athlete will have had a journey to get to any Olympic start line and I think you know. For me it was really important not to feel the kind of weight of history or any burden at the start line you want to feel, you know. As for it's only about that moment. You're not First stroke at the time. Yeah, it's just one stroke at a time and it's just what you need to do and you don't.
Speaker 2:I don't need to go over my history to know what I was bringing to that start line, but it was. You know. It's almost afterwards, it's almost, you know, once you cross the line and you're on the podium and it all floods through your whole. You know all these kind of moments that you've got on, all the amazing people I rode with from those university days through to the previous three Olympics, to all the coaches and all the support staff that had been there, and loads of those people were in the crowds. So Anna and I did the sort of road past afterwards with our medals. Oh, my god, all the thousands and thousands of faces, and we seem to know most of them and there was almost.
Speaker 2:This is your life moment of all these people from both our histories were there for that moment and it just, you know, it did. Oh, it was incredible and everyone was, you know, cheering and singing and taking photos and waving, and you, just you, could share this incredible moment with so many people, and that's why to have that moment happen at home games is just the gift and it really is the ultimate gift.
Speaker 1:So you took a little while to deliberate whether you would then continue on Torrio, and I guess, looking back from a logical point of view, it would seem that you would have finished with London. What do you think it was? The final point that made you decide you wanted to continue on Torrio?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did take a gap because I wasn't sure and I think everyone just assumed that would be it. And you've finally achieved what you've always wanted. So you know, and it was. You know it was the fairytale moment in front of that crowd. So why would you ever go on beyond that? And you know you risk it almost. Yeah, and a lot of people did say it, a lot of people warned me of that. Why risk? You know, at the moment you've got an incredible story, you've got an incredible journey. There's a bit of a legacy you could leave behind and if you go on and you fail in some way, then that would be the end of the story and that will just spoil the journey.
Speaker 1:It wasn't guaranteed. You know you weren't guaranteed to do it on the phone. I think it was guaranteed nothing's ever guaranteed.
Speaker 2:Even coming back wasn't guaranteed. You know you're up against the likelihood of injury, of not reclaiming form. I knew Anna had retired so I'd, you know, have forged another new partnership and now a new boat and meanwhile the whole world's moved on while you've not been there and so there's a lot of risks to it. But I suppose I don't know, you're either the kind of person that sees all that and sees all the risks and the negatives and things. It's not worth them. I'm not going to try.
Speaker 2:I've got other things I could do with my life and I did and I was excited about other options. Or you look at all that and go, I know, but I'd still rather find out if I could do it. I'd rather take that risk because it's something I love and I still loved it and I still wanted the challenge. And I remember when I did it and there was a couple of articles written kind of basically questioning why I'd come back and it's certainly implying, if not stating directly, that it was a mistake and Anna sent me a really lovely message just saying I'm so proud of you for not living life as if it is a written fair tale with an answer. You actually, you know you want to still ask questions of yourself and keep challenging, and that's actually to her. That was much more than just trying to complete the perfect story.
Speaker 1:It's almost the more powerful story, isn't it? That is the in terms of a lesson for people to go and explore and continue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you can. You know you can get to a point where you think I'd rather just leave it there and walk away and it is safe, it feels safer, but I don't know. You've got one life and I don't always want to play safe and I just I did. I still had a real love for it and I spoke to the great medics we work with and the coaches as well. To say realistically of this is still something I should consider and they were all incredibly supportive. You know I think it won't be easy, but you know very positive about it. So yeah, another silver.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Rio was great. Rio was, you know, very, very tough. Two years coming back in mentally and physically, and there was very points to that. Two years were, I think I thought and many others thought it just wasn't going to happen, it wasn't going to be possible. You know, we've really I was in a different boat and a few different boats in the final year were sort of looked at and I ended up back in the double which had been in London, but with Vicky Thorny. He was another fabulous athlete and we just, but we didn't physically were quite different. We didn't, we didn't naturally have the fit that Anne and I had from day one. So it took a lot more sort of to get it right and we were selected very late and very last minute and and coming into it, we hadn't won any races together, whereas Anne and I, like I did one everything, yeah we hadn't, so we didn't have that kind of sort of security or confidence or reassurance.
Speaker 2:We're both, we both, really gone. We really believed it was possible. But there was a, and our coach was, quite a point, much more believing than us that it would work. He really saw that it could work, but we really you don't have the evidence.
Speaker 2:And then it feels, you know, as that uncertainty causes can cause doubt, so early on, you know, when the results aren't coming, there's always this kind of God, well, is this the right decision and will this work out? And then Rio was so complicated and the weather conditions changed and things got postponed and cancelled, delayed, and that adds into the mix. And and then the, the racing was, you know, some of the favorites didn't make it final. So it's sunny, this kind of reminder that actually nothing is certain. There was some really surprising results, but it. But when you're one of the, the outsiders and the non favorites, then actually when things are going uncertain and it plays into your hands a little, bit well actually now everyone's uncertain and what we got to lose and that final was all about that kind of you know what, have you got to lose?
Speaker 2:it was throwing everything to win. The odds were up against us, no one would have put money on us and and you've got two thousand meters to see what you can do. So it's a you know it is. It was my most sort of shocked result of them all, the final one fantastic.
Speaker 1:And then and then moving forward to 2017 and appointed chair UK sport, so I guess, clearly a massive, massive on them. What did that mean to you personally, having, I guess, lived within that world of performance sport? So then, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it wasn't an obvious step for me, to be honest, and I thought for a while I might be the waiters from sport and do something else and just get a change in life and sort of focus. And then this job opened up and I still didn't think it was anything that I could really say consider. But I put an application in and then I got asked to go for an interview and Really enjoyed the whole process. It was the first real job I'd actually applied for and gone through. So I didn't think and I think you've got a bit of freedom. If you think realistically, it's probably not gonna happen. So you know, that gives you a bit of freedom and interview and things.
Speaker 1:I've enjoyed.
Speaker 2:Yeah and just, and you know, you know so much pressure in yourself and I just enjoyed the process. And then the phone back and it's the Minister of Sport phones you back and Unoffers you the role and I was absolutely terrified. I didn't really know what it would be like or what it you know what I might involve or you know there's a big, chunky role to take on and in a very big organization that does incredibly important things within high-performance sports and. But I think I wanted you know, you can't have had 20 years in high-performance sport and not still want to, you know push yourself and challenge and learn and develop and and I was kind of hungry to keep doing that, but in different way that I had as an athlete and I'm so I'm so glad every single day, I'm so glad I took the job because it is hard and it does challenge me daily and I have learned so much in two years.
Speaker 2:But I I adore it and I love the people I work with.
Speaker 2:I love their, their passion for what they do and their belief in it and they you know Everyone's got such integrity of trying to do the right thing in a, in a very tough new environment where you know you're you don't have enough answers for everyone who needs them and You're trying out, you're trying to help guidance dear the the way forward for British sport and that's incredible Privilege and everyone feels that as a responsibility in the right way.
Speaker 2:And I love working with Liz Nicol, who's been the chief exec here for a long time and you know she, as a sort of female leader in sport is is just really quite exceptional about. You know her length of career and what she's achieved in that time and the influence she's had and yet is one of the most humble. You know modest people you'll meet incredibly down to earth, so engaging, so much fun to spend days with and just you know the heart of things believes in doing the right thing and that is an incredible Simple way to be. But you know you think at this level there's so many competing challenges to you.
Speaker 2:Just to have that clarity of thought, the heart of it, it's about doing the right thing keeps her so grounded and I've learned masses from around the two years I've worked with her and and yeah, and you know it's been she's been completely inspirational of what I've managed to do myself and from day one, you know, I said like I really I'm not going to be the most experienced here You've ever dealt with.
Speaker 2:I'll be the least experienced by a long way and she said well, we're gonna make you into the best here you can be and that's a, that's the opportunity you have and we'll look forward to doing that. And she has done that. And you know that is just being in this work environment, working with fabulous women at this level, is just such privilege. That's brilliant.
Speaker 1:I've been to here and I recently, and you know it's a new future strategy. But you case for, and I guess some of the media headlines seem to hook on to the piece about wanting to be at the top of the medals Tables. But I think, looking further down, it's it's much more around Social inclusion and how we can utilize sport is, and it's clearly something you're very passionate about.
Speaker 2:Yes, the future strategy itself and it's board strategy never mentioned, you know, number one, the medal table or those things, what. What we were asked later was what might be possible if, if more money would come in, what could be possible, what would it take to talk the metal table? So you know, we can do that, we can actually number, number crunch and work that out and of course, it makes great headlines and you know, would be number on the metal table.
Speaker 2:Be, you know, something this country has never done. So it would be exciting, but that's a much, much longer term strategy. But no, this. So the strategy we've just launched was from post-tool Q, so after 2021. It came off the back of a huge public consultation that got great engagement actually from the public, as well as working groups with people from inside sport, from who work alongside sport, different stakeholders, all different parts of the four home nations, and the general response from everyone was you know, we still, we still love the success that the Olympics and Paralympics brings. We still want to see those brilliant, iconic, inspirational moments. But could it be even more? Could it be, you know, more sports and more athletes with more impact in society?
Speaker 2:Because you know people generally get that sport has its Inspiration and that reaches far beyond just getting people to do more sport. It's about people being able to do anything in life and and just feel that. You know these great stories, you see, of athletes. They've all. They've all come from very different backgrounds, they've all had different sort of abilities growing up, they've all had different challenges and they've all overcome things to achieve something that's been their dream, their passion and and there's something that's incredibly human about that, there's something that's very you know, that it's very relatable is that you know people all have their secrets, ambitions and dreams, and some of it will be in all different Directions and different genres and different levels, but people should have that you know deep in your heart what do you really want to do with life? And? And sport is amazing lessons. So if you know how you can achieve stuff to achieve those dreams and and I think that sort of level of inspiration, if it can be spread far and wide through sport, and that's incredible gift to give.
Speaker 1:And recently Baroness Grotompson's review in terms of athlete welfare. I highlighted a few concerns with a bit of a culture bullying in some sports and I think you've been quite open in terms of the toughness of coaches in your Training and development. So I guess personally to you Do you feel you would have had the success you had if you hadn't had that level of intense coaching? Could a different coach have bought as much out in you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean different, different coaches, different styles, and you never quite you know. You never know know what might have happened with different styles. I I've always said I mean I think there have been these, some individuals within some sports that haven't had a healthy attitude To how they've driven athletes and driven environments. But ultimately you need, you need there to be a positive environment, be able to really flourish. People do need to feel safe and Look after it. But it will always feel tough. It will always feel at some extent it's hard what we do. You know being being in high performance athlete it's not. You know you are physically exhausted and you're mentally tired and that's why you need the support around you to achieve what you need to achieve. But it will not be.
Speaker 2:I don't think anyone I've ever met would want to want it to be. You know Likeness and joy and and you know every day is an easy day because it's you're trying to something quite exceptional. So you need to be able to be pushed. But I think we all know I mean the lines are blurred and it's hard to draw a clear line of what's acceptable, what's not. But I think instinctively you sort of you know when you're being pushed and you might not like it but it is. It is the right thing to get pushed and I've I've definitely had performances brought out of me because you know you get driven hard and you realize actually you're capable of more than you expected yourself and that's brilliant.
Speaker 2:But where you see it go wrong is when people are pushed hard and it's actually not in a healthy way and it's not necessary to try and get the best out of someone. It's just. It's just, you know, pushing someone too far because ultimately athletes are, you know, we're all human beings and we all have Amazing stress, but people are very vulnerable to you and they are calm. It can be quite a vulnerable environment when you're, when you're kind of pushed, exhaustion, and if you don't feel you have the right Kind of people to go to and talk about and share with some things, then they're pulling off the right outlets and it then it then it can become risky.
Speaker 2:So I think what what's been great is since Tani's reports come out is so much has changed for the better and the positive, and and it, you know it doesn't mean it's not, it's not as good as it should be. I think everyone's still trying to get it as good as it can be, but I think with the right people with the right, with the right education as well, a lot of it's just Sort of that teaching people of how you can push people and how you get the best out of people. There's lots of different styles and it's not gonna be one one no, there's not one answer, but there's definitely. There's also sort of the education of looking at for signs when people are really struggling and we're actually people are asking for help that you might not have understood. So I think there's a greater understanding of Of just just well-being and a healthy environment.
Speaker 1:That's still very possible within a Hard competitive environment was an inspirational way to finish this first series of the game-changers. It was such a privilege to hear from one of sports most respected and admired athletes. Catherine epitomizes the very spirit of the game-changers as a trailblazing, extraordinary woman in sport. As I begin planning series 2, I'd love to hear what you think about the game-changers, so please do give us a rating or a review. I'd also like to know if there are any females in sport you'd like to hear featured in future episodes. Let me know on social media. Well, you'll find me at Sue and Stis and if you want to make sure you're the first to receive all future episodes as they launch, then please subscribe to the game-changers and you can find out more about all the guests at promote prcom. The game-changers podcast. Fearless women in sport.