Emma Mitchell: Preparing athletes for a life beyond sport

Emma Mitchell was Red Rose number #19, with an international rugby career that spanned 15 years. She won 57 caps for England and Great Britain, competed in 4 World Cups with the 1994 World Cup win being her career highlight.

Following her retirement in 2002, Emma went on to coach at club, regional and international level in the USA, Canada and the UK.

In 2007 Emma joined the English Institute of Sport as a Performance Lifestyle Coach, supporting over 200 elite GB Hockey athletes and coaches over four Olympic cycles. Over the last 10 years, she’s also been involved in a number of coach development programmes, providing mentoring support to coaches in Tennis, Squash, Sailing, Hockey, Rugby, Swimming, Boxing and Football.

In this fascinating and entertaining conversation, we explore the early days of women’s rugby in England in the 1980s and Emma shares the conditions laid down for women to be allowed to play at London clubs and what it took to place for your country. 

What she’s learnt from a life in coaching and in her role as a lifestyle Advisor at the EIS. What can women’s team sport learn from Olympic and Paralympic programmes as it becomes professional and what the future looks like for women’s rugby players globally. 
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery 

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Emma Mitchell: Preparing athletes for a life beyond sport
Sue Anstiss

Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing Women in sport, what can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond? Before I introduce my guest today, I'd like to say a really big thank you to our partners Sport England, who support the Game Changers through a National lottery award. 

My guest today is Emma Mitchell with an international rugby career spanning 15 years. Emma is Red Rose number 19, who won 57 caps for England and Great Britain. Emma competed in four World Cups with 1994 World Cup being her career highlight.

Following her retirement in 2002, she went on to coach at club, regional, and international level in the USA, Canada and in the UK.

In 2007, Emma joined the English Institute of Sport as a performance lifestyle coach supporting over 200 elite GB hockey athletes and coaches over four Olympic cycles. Over the past 10 years, she's also been involved in a number of coach development programs, providing mentoring support to coaches in tennis, squash, sailing, hockey, rugby, swimming, boxing and football. 

There's so much to explore in talking to you, Emma, but I wonder if we can begin where our path first crossed at Loughborough University back in the 80s. So what were you studying there at the time and how did you come to find rugby?

Emma Mitchell

Thank you, Sue. Thank you for the welcome. Very flattering! Yes, so 1987 I studied, I started at Loughborough on a joint honors degree history in sports science, and within about two weeks, I switched to just single honors history. I, I found that I was running from lecture to seminar to lecture to practice to all the rest of it and so I, I switched a single honors history. I immediately got about 15 hours back in my week and yeah, played sport and at that point it was, I was a discus thrower a fairly poor discus thrower,  also a hockey player And I went along to the freshers trials,  got into that team and we played the third team. That was our training evening was Freshers against the third team. And little did I know at the time, but quite a few of that third team were also in the rugby team. So after training one evening, we ended up in the, the student union bar, and a few of them came over, Amanda Bennett, Lisa Burgess, names that you'll know, <laugh>. And they approached, they approached four of us who were freshers hockey players. so it was myself, Jane, my twin sister, Chris Gurney, and Claire Willis as she was at the time now, Claire Vivian, and they said, we've been watching you for, we think you might quite like to give rugby a go. and we said, alright then, so we did, we went along to the next, training session, we were put in a line and I remember Amanda Bennett went along the line and was just sort of basically picking out what, just from your shape and height and so on, what position you'd be. And I think Jane and I were, I did, well, we are identical twins, and so we'd look very similar. We're at different ends of the line, but Amanda went along and forward, back, back, back, came to me, back, went on further, Jane forward. So for the first few years of our careers I was a put in the backs, Jane was in the forwards and that, that then changed a little bit later for Jane. But the four of us, Chris, Claire, Jane, and I all went on to play for England within the first, well, within a year or two of, of being approached post hockey session. So that's quite a nice story, in there.

Sue Anstiss

I love that. I love that selection process of the England squad and actually having been, yeah, I spent many hours in the JC bar myself.I can see the picture of, of that too. And what was it about rugby, having been a hockey player at the time, what was it about rugby that you loved that was, was different to what you'd experienced in the past?

Emma Mitchell

I love a team sport within athletics, I was a, again, a very poor sprinter and a discus thrower. So it was something about speed and strength that appealed to me I just fell in love with the sport. It seemed like it was the best fit for me as a young athlete, the sort of game of physical chess in a way, always having to problem solve what's in front of you and how all 15 of you can best work together to, to lead to the result that you want. So yea, it was a perfect match really, what happened was I started off playing in the center, but after a year or so was moved to scrum half and a lot of my discus training, was really relevant to, you know, a scrum half pass, cause so much of it is power from your legs and the twist and how you wind up.  So that was a real benefit to me. And Jim Greenwood was my coach at that time as well. So he would keep myself and Amanda Bennett on after training and say, Right, let's just do a little bit of work on, on your passing Emma, and how the two of you communicate with each other and make decisions. And we'd then go away and, and practice that more and more and more. So I, I got really good input, um, right from the start. I didn't, didn't really pick up too many bad habits.

Sue Anstiss

I'm gonna move on to talk about Jim Greenwood because he was my personal tutor to two, and I know we kinda both share a huge admiration for him and, and what he did at Loughborough, I was gonna reflect on the fact that Bird and Ben never approached me as a volleyball player to say they thought I'd make a good rugby player. I was there with them all, and I, so how did I miss out on that opportunity? maybe they, they knew best, but yeah, Jim Greenwood a legend of the game and, you know, clearly I imagine had a huge influence on your love of rugby and, uh, you know, future within the game. 

Emma Mitchell

Yeah, he was, he was just amazing. I mean an absolutely inspirational man. Um, and an incredibly talented coach.  his philosophy for playing the game really appealed to me. So that, that again, sort of was, was, was a part of it. And just his, um, how he treated each of us. He, got to know you as a person as well as a player and he would spend quality time with, with each of us to sort of say, This is what I think we need to work on. This is how we're gonna go about it. And you just wanted to go and, and do it for yourself, but also for him. so he was a, a really important role model for me in, in those early years of playing and few decades on when I started to coach and went on to, some coach development programs and so on, and would be asked who, who's the coach that, you know, inspired you the most and why? Jim would be the person that I would choose. 

Sue Anstiss 

And reflecting back, Now here's what we might now call a male ally of the women's game, But I wonder what was the attitude generally of the men's rugby community to the women's game as it grew and thrived in the eighties?

Emma Mitchell

So at, at Loughborough with the, the student population, it was very supportive, but once we graduated from Loughborough and were actually going out to try and play in a club, there were, in those days there were only a handful of clubs, across the country. So part of the challenge then was about going and trying to find a club where you could set up a women's section. So again, four of us moved to Kent, and set up aside in, Gillingham - Gillingham Anchorians, and we approached the club there. We had, I think there was four of us, we set up a come and try it day and got a few others along to help we arranged for the, it was the Bromley side in, in southeast London, Kent to come down and play us. We put on a demonstration. I think a lot of the local rugby population were just curious, and I think they where probably know more than about a dozen that might have turned up to watch.

But we did, find, an army officer who was keen to coach us, so that that was good. yeah, the attitudes were, I'd say in many ways this isn't a game for women. Women shouldn't be allowed to play rugby. We had to break down a lot of that and, and, and do it in a very diplomatic way, <laugh>, because that was really the way to actually achieve what we wanted. And what we wanted more than anything was just to be able to continue to play. So that was just therefore being, trying to be very, very nice, very polite, and if we could be charming and just ask, can we, can we come? This is, we think we'll bring in extra money through the bar you know, it be another game that's being played. It'll help with the, the community feel of the club and those are all sort of elements to the proposal that clubs liked. I was one of the founder members at Gillingham Anchorians, but then started work in London, so moved to London and that's where a group of us again got together and decided it was time to try and set up another club within London. And at, at that point, there was Richmond in southwest London, had been Finchley previously, but they had moved and then there was Wasps obviously and at that point, Wembley, but you know, later on, again moved a little bit further around as well. So a lot of us were living in east and northeast London and Saracen's men were about to come back into the, the premiership as it was then.

And so we approached Saracens to, to try and set up a club there. And there was nine of us founder members for Saracens. One of the group worked for a chap called John Hedgedon, and he was one of these allies, advocates,  who was ahead of his time and really understood sort of the value of women playing and, and just encouraged us to put forward a proposal to the club committee we did that. Sam Robson, you know, she wrote brilliant proposal, sent it off to the committee to be considered, and John Hegedon went along to the next committee meeting, and looked at the agenda for women's proposal. And it wasn't there. So after the meeting, he got in touch with, with Sam, and I think was a bit frustrated and said, you know, that the item wasn't on the agenda, we weren't asked to discuss it. It turns out that the secretary at the time had opened the proposal, but just thought, well, women shouldn't be playing rugby, torn it up, put it in the bin. Now, if, if we didn't have John on the committee and Sam wasn't able to reassure him that we had sent the proposal in, we probably would've just thought, Well, that's it, let's try somewhere else. but actually we were then invited to, again, submitted again, and Sam went in and actually presented the proposal and the committee came back to us and they said, We're, we would love you to set up a women's section.  We have three conditions. One is that you, you will take on running the club shop on Saturday and Sunday morning. So selling socks and shorts and all the rest of it to the mainly the mini section two, when we have men's games and we're very busy, we'd like some help with manning the gates, running the bar, manning the burger van, that sort of thing. And three, two or three times a year we'll have a Vice President's lunch and we'd like you to supply the, the waitressing staff, so the women's section. So back to what I said earlier about, we were just willing to be polite and charming and just get, we want, we said brilliant. Yes, absolutely. To all three, 

Sue Anstiss 

We’re in!

Emma Mitchell 

We’re in! and once we were in, we were able to, you know, demonstrate a little bit more about what we could bring. and we did, we did run the shop, we did help with the games, and we were just very much there and a part of the club. And we got, we started to win a lot of supporters and friends within the wider club. 

Sue Anstiss 

I can't really see you at, you and Maggie waitressing at the, at a dinner

Emma Mitchell

By the time Maggie was playing. Um, and she joined as a gosh, 13, 14 year old. But by the time she was playing we’d gone beyond that. And I think we'd proven that we perhaps didn't need to do that. We did it for a few years. What was lovely was about 20 years on Amanda Bennett, Lisa Burgess myself and Katie Ball were all made honorary vice presidents. So we were invited to one of these lunches. And the president of the club at the time was Lee Adamson, who'd also been a coach of the women's section for about 10 years. And he told this story to all of the vice presidents who were present and, he finished the story by saying, So it gives me enormous pleasure to wait on these, these four today and look after them. So it sort of came a really lovely full circle.

Sue Anstiss 

That is so lovely. So lovely. And, and such a successful club you then went on to be in terms of a real kind of winning club. So tell us about that, the kind of success of Saracens. 

Emma Mitchell 

Yeah, so, so Saracens established in 1989 and we started in the second division, but immediately won promotion to the first and by 91 we were winning what was then called the Treble, so the league, the Cup, and the Sevens competition, which was, was very difficult to do. We started off, we had nine founder members, but quickly built the size of the squad so that we could run a first and the second team. And without really knowing it at the time, but we, we, and I learned so much more about it now in the work that I do, but the whole cultural element to the club in terms of what we were about as a group of women and how we wanted the club to feel as an environment for anyone who came in, I think was, was really important. We're very welcoming anyone welcome no matter what, what standard they were, what, you know, what they'd done previously. And we just were trying to get everyone to enjoy the game. And talking to some of those early players who did come along and, and give it a try, that was something that they, they, they felt was so important because they, they did feel as though they were just there to learn. They, you know, have fun, and then, you know, reach whatever potential they, they were able to reach. So we're very proud of Saracens and, and you know, where they are now too, you know, it's sort of now over 30 years and you know, they continue to be an incredible force in, in the women's game within England, but within the world there's not many clubs that could probably, uh, equal their success both on and and off the field.

Sue Anstiss 

That's so true, isn't it? So I hope you take time to reflect and think about, I guess those foundations that have gone on to create great club players, but then, you know, international players to, as we look out to New Zealand and, you know, so many of those and the Red Roses squad, coming through Saracens you, you mentioned yourself that you progress very quickly in terms of the England's system itself. So what are your memories of your, your first cap for England?

Emma Mitchell 

Oh my, well my first cap was in April 1988, and it was against Wales in Newport. We stayed in a youth hostal, cause at that point we, we just didn't really have, well, we didn't have any money we were paying for ourselves and that was the most affordable accommodation. The youth hostel we were in, we, we had to do some duties the morning of the game before we left, the forwards were given, right you can wash up all the breakfast stuff. The backs were given slightly up the dorms, and Karen and I were given the, the toilet block to go and clean. But we had to be out at 10 o'clock and the game wasn't until 2.30 or 3. So we had that whole, I don't know, five hours to just go and spend some time somewhere. It was pouring with rain. So we, we went to a park thinking, well, at least we can just be out, stretch our legs and, but it, it rained quite heavily. So we just end up, sat in our cars, for the few hours before being able to get to the, the, the club and then get going. don't remember the score. I know that we won. and I know that I scored a try. I can just remember being incredibly proud. And yeah, that was the first of, of many appearances and lots of wonderful memories.

Sue Anstiss 

Fabulous, fabulous stuff and as I said, you were a Red Rose number 19, went on to gain 52 England caps and five caps for Great Britain at sevens. but that was long before any notion of, of professional contracts, so you then continued to play for England, but to work full time while you were playing. So how did you manage to balance those two careers?

Emma Mitchell 

Yes, I, so I worked full time for,  a company called Prentice Hall, my sales manager, was a big rugby fan. so I don't know if that helped with my CV standing out for the actual interview process. She certainly was someone who valued what sport could do in terms of developing characteristics that would help in a, in a work situation and I just had to be really organized. I was what was called a field sales editor, which was really a sales rep. And I would go around to universities in London and the southeast of England and meet lecturers and talk to them about the, the textbooks that we had.

So it would involve traveling anywhere in Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, and then East London. So each day I'd go somewhere different, and I'd have to build my training into that. So it usually meant that my training would be in the evening, once I got back. And that would be at Walthamstowe Track where it would meet up and we'd do a few sort of sprint drills or sprint sessions or in the gym for some weight sessions. And then we'd have club training twice a week. So it meant the days were quite long, usually early start to travel to wherever I was going. Quite a lot of walking around campus with a heavy bag of, sales manuals and then get home and whatever training was needed. And, and at the end of that home at half past nine, ten try and have a bit of food.

So it wasn't ideal in that regard, but again, we just wanted to play and we wanted to do whatever we we could do to become the best we could be. So that involved, we just make it work, as my career progressed, I was very lucky that the companies that I worked for within publishing they, they supported the, my rugby element and would write into the contract that I could have my international time as paid leave. And Addison Wednesday actually also became one of the first sponsors of the England team in the late nineties. Wow. Um, so they, they, they saw how much commitment went in and then how we were also paying our way. And so they, you know, and it wasn't a big amount of money, but well at the time it was, it was 10,000 pounds. So, and they wanted it to just go to the players or to help alleviate some of the costs that were involved. Yeah, I'd say very forward thinking, the employers that I worked for at the time,

Sue Anstiss 

It's interesting, isn't it, I thinking even in recently talking to Shaunagh Brown and how British Gas supported her career and I spoke to Donna Fraser, about her work, you know, be with a company that supported her through training. I wonder whether there's almost an opportunity to something to highlight those forward-thinking companies that almost don't always get the shout out cause they're just the employers of young athletes, but actually it is their forward thinking and that openness that enables those athletes to, function and, and have success. It's important isn’t it?

Emma Mitchell 

Really important, and it's, it's, it's employers who just think a little bit more creatively about how they're gonna recruit talent. And the amount of loyalty I felt for Prentice Hall, Addison Wesley Longman and, and then Thompson Learning was enormous. And it meant that I, you know, did everything I could to deliver the best I could workwise and stay with them for a long career. So. Yeah, no, I, I totally agree too. And it's something that sort of feeds into the work I do now with the hockey squad. 

Sue Anstiss 

Just looking back in terms of the playing and representing England and what we see now, and I was very lucky to be at Bristol for that game ahead of the, World Cup before the Red Roses went out there was 12,000 on a Wednesday evening in Bristol watching them,  amazing numbers. So reflecting back to where you were in terms of those international games, not necessarily that first one in Newport, but, but what kind of numbers were you having coming to watch the games? What was the support like and then also in terms of media coverage, were people writing about the games? What was the situation like as you progressed through your England career?

Emma Mitchell 

Yeah, so the early days, the crowds were, were fairly small. It would be a few hundred maybe up to a thousand or so, that would probably be it. depending on where the game was, it would usually be friends and family and then a few local curious rugby folk. As it moved on, certainly the 94 World Cup final, we had, I think it was 3 or 4,000 at that, that was a much bigger crowd. That was brilliant. And again, Edinburgh quite a rugby city, so there was a lot more than just the friends and family audience in terms of the, the media coverage, again, you had a few people who were probably a bit ahead of their time and would write very much about the rugby, so the like of likes of Steven Jones the Sunday Times and very supportive of the women's game. And we loved to see any coverage that was about the game, cause you wanted to know what like an expert rugby correspondent thought. But I'm afraid probably the majority of the coverage, and I've got 33 scrapbook in the loft that attest to this, but the majority of it was women playing rugby as a bit of a novelty, a bit of a curiosity thing. So you'd have the, the feature articles with us dressed in our kit and covered in mud and then in dresses and ball gowns and all that sort of stuff. And the, you know, the headlines about, you know, the hooker or whatever it would be. And you, you sort of felt that in a way some of that coverage was at least getting the game some publicity, but there were also some articles that were just, you know, dreadful and you just would end up thinking, well, we're not gonna speak to that particular paper again, we became a bit more astute in terms of this is actually a magazine piece, you know, would ask a bit more about what they were wanting to do rather than just say, yes, come along for the day, come bring the photographer. Do you know, and then you, you have no control over what was going on. By the time I retired in 2002, it was much, much better. Although, I mean, I think you'll agree with this. It, it just doesn't happen as quickly as you want it to. And you still see that there's change still to come that we know will happen, but it, it never quite happens at the pace you feel it, it should be happening at.

Sue Anstiss 

I was lucky, I was at the Rugby Writers Awards this year and Jill Burns gave an extraordinary speech actually, but she shared some of those headlines, around that time and it was, you know, it's kind of like laughable, but actually it's not. Cause I was thinking of you as the, these amazing elite athletes, as you say, it's almost how that undermined what you were doing, what you were achieving at the time. So it must be, you know, now to see the headlines now that we see and the coverage and the footage. it's fabulous to feel that you've made that path for those athletes to be experiencing that today.

Emma Mitchell 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we, we've been on a journey with it and certainly coming out the other end and, and sometimes it's, it's hard to imagine and what, what some of the current players, when they see some of those, those articles or some of the headlines, they are shocked and horrified. Even the story about setting Saracens and the three conditions,  you know, that's what, like what, what what you would, you know, you, you were vice captain and you were press and publicity secretary and you were chair and you, you know, you had to do all that <laugh>. And again, our answer would be yes, but we were doing it because that's what we needed to do in order to play the game that we loved.

Sue Anstiss 

No, it's fascinating and you, and I think it's good that they do hear that, that we are aware of that and they do hear and see that. So you also Captained England and you played in Four World Cups. So how does it feel to be now watching it all unfold, in New Zealand? Does it take you right back to your own experiences?

Emma Mitchell 

I feel incredibly proud watching the team play. Just, in the last couple of weeks we were able to make sure that all of the red roses from Karen Almond at number one all the way up to it's around 250 something up to the current group that, that everyone knew their Red Rose number. Carol Isherwood who's out, uh, in New Zealand, was pulling together some good luck messages from the former red roses and people sent photos and messages and everyone was signing off with their Red Rose number. And that is such a simple thing, but it's provided this lovely golden thread through the generations and a real connection to the current group. Um, and, and I think there's just some, some sort of powerful, almost legacy that is going on within that and that current squad are learning more about those very early days. And what was lovely seeing some of the photos from the game against France from Saturday was that Karen Almond met some of the group and they knew who she was, um, and knew she was Red Rose number one and our, our captain in 91 and 94, and led that side to, to victory in 94. So I feel incredibly proud. Now I remember joking with Bernsie, but you know, the, the term pioneer makes you feel incredibly old <laugh>. But, but in many ways it's very true because of when you now look back at where we started and what the game has achieved and how it's progressing, but also what the future looks like and how amazing it it's gonna be. I mean 2025 and the next World Cup being here is so exciting. What, you know, the level of of um, ability on display at the moment at the World Cup and where that's gonna be in, in three years time with so many of the unions now starting to offer professional contracts to their players, it's just yet so exciting. So yeah, having played some small part in that, you know, a few decades ago makes me incredibly, incredibly proud and feel incredibly connected to the group.

Sue Anstiss 
 Yeah, fantastic. And rightly so, rightly so. I did actually check with Sue Day when I was preparing this interview. I said, where I've been googling everyone on the internet, where, where can I find this list of the Red Roses? How can I phrase it? And then she said, you were number 19, but the list isn't anywhere yet. We worked hard to get the list together, but it doesn't exist. I think that's the next step is putting it out there. So I felt better that I'd spent all that time trying, trying to find it, why could I not find it? So, not been published yet and I love that Poppy Cleall had put on her boots, the names of the 94 and 2014, squad on her boots. That was lovely, really lovely touch, as you say that kind of thread through on each other's shoulders as it were, on the shoulders of women that went before.

Emma Mitchell 

Absolutely, yeah, lovely, lovely touch from Poppy and yeah, could see the boots as well when she was, when she came on the pitch, so yeah. Yeah, really lovely touch

Sue Anstiss 

<laugh>, really lovely. so you retired from playing but you didn't leave the sport, how did coaching then become a part of your life?

Emma Mitchell 

Right, so I, I retired internationally in 2002, and focused on my, what my publishing career at the time. I was a publishing director in London. 

As soon as rugby had gone as a, as a sort of international sport for me, family became much more important. My twin sister Jane, who I played with 21 times in England, she lives in California and we had talked about might we end up living in the same place again for a little while. So through the company she worked for, I was offered a job out in California. So I moved out there in 2003 and just as Jane and I played our first year for Loughborough together, we then 20 years on, played our last year together, for the Berkeley All Blues out in California we finished as club champions in the USA which was quite a challenging feat cause you, you would play back to back games out there because of the distance traveled and all the rest of it.

So anyway, we, we, we finished, we, we won, I retired, Jane retired, and I then looked to move into coaching our coach at, at the Berkeley A Blues was a another wonderful coach and woman called Kathy Flores and I became her assistant coach the following season and looked after the back. So she'd already been a friend of some 30 years at that point. And we were competitors against each other, England and USA but I got to know her over the years with various matches and tours and all the rest of it. so I was her assistant coach from 2004, until I came back to London in 2006. And then Amanda Bennett picked up the phone and said, would do you like to come and help me at Saracens? She was head coach at Saracens then. So I was like, well, yeah, definitely. And actually at that point, Sue, I, my career goal was actually to go on to coach, try and coach professionally and, and try and coach England. So that that was the, where I was focused and the job I got with Great Britain Hockey and the English Institute of Sport was part-time and I thought that that will bring in some income and then I can focus on developing my, my coaching. So I came back and I took, took on Saracen’s I also took on the wooden spoon was starting up with the Seven’s team  and I was approached by John Dewhurst and Susie Applebee  was involved in that and asked coach there. So I did that. I was also asked to coach, the Nomads, so Fiona Stockley, then it was the Nomads obviously gone on to now become the Barbarians. And with hindsight now, I think I probably took on a bit too much <laugh> because all of these coaching roles were voluntary. I get a sessional fee at Saracens, but it was, I mean it was, you know, 20 pounds a session, something like that. It wasn't an income, and what I, what I found was the role I had with Great Britain hockey, that was also a coaching role, but coaching the person that in a way became, more of my focus. Uh, so I I I, I did coach within rugby, but up until 2010, 2011, and then I started to step away and focus more on my professional coaching core.

Sue Anstiss 

And I don't ever like having regrets. So I think everything takes you down route of one or the other. But do you kind of reflect or you look at Giselle’s career, Giselle Mather who you play with as a teammate and what she's gone on to coach and, you know, others that are now, moving in that level. Is it too late for you to go back and get that England role? Would you coach again or or do you reflect that, it's something that, that might have had more appeal?

Emma Mitchell

I don't think I would coach again Sue, just because I've been away from the game and off of the grass for too long and, and the game has, has progressed. so I think it would take quite a bit to get back involved. We'll see, I, if I did do anything, it may just be at grassroots level you know, with a group of girls or boys or, but you know, both. So I don't know that might happen in the future when I'm not working and, you know, moving more towards retirement. But what what has been lovely is I've, I've had some involvement with the RFU in the last year or so as a consultant. So I've been able to come back in and, and look at what's going on within the domestic game and the direction that they're going in and pull on some of the experience that I've got from the 15 years with, with a very successful Olympic team sport and make a few suggestions in there. So that, that's been an interesting way to be back involved, but not on the training pitch with my boots on, coaching.

Sue Anstiss

And I know for me, many of my lifelong friends are women that I've played sport with over the years. And I sense from this conversation that the rugby family’s still very much a part of your life. Is is that the case?

Emma Mitchell 

Very much so. My, my best friends have all come from that rugby family. My wife Sarah and I got, got married nearly 10 years ago now, and I, we have the sort of, you know, the rugby photo and I think there was something like 40 of the 80 guests if not slightly more where rugby family, including my little nephew who by then had started playing and, you know, so that, that, that was brilliant. But yeah, no, I mean the, friendships that, that you develop from being on that rugby pitch together and the nature of the sport as well, because it is so physical, you developed incredibly strong bonds and it's a very social sport too. So how you get to know each other after the game and then how you train together and just look out for each other, is something extraordinary. And that's still the case, today, which is, which is brilliant. And the club setting, particularly, I'd say is where players within the international setup as you know, that can be quite a rollercoaster at times with non selection or injury. And what we all found was going back to Saracens that was where you just knew you were gonna be sort of really looked after and loved and valued, and you'd get through some of the bumps a little bit better because of that.

Sue Anstiss 

You're sensing I do feel I missed out and not playing. I will have a word with Lisa Burgess and Amanda Bennett at some point. I'd like to move on to your role at the EIS, so performance lifestyle advisor. Can you just tell us a little bit about, what that role is, what, what you do in that role?

Emma Mitchell

So, the performance lifestyle role is, is, is about looking after the person. so really prioritizing the person who is the athlete. We've got six main pillars that we focus on career development, transitions, financial health, education, learning and development and mental health and wellbeing. And my work just covers all of those areas. And I'd say the ones where I probably have more of a focus, are career development, the hockey group are incredibly ambitious off the pitch as well as on it. A lot of them want to develop careers while they're on the program so that, that ‘what's next’ anxiety isn't something that's impacting them, but also, so as they're set up and in a really good place for the future and they value having something that's a very positive distraction away from the performance environment. Transitions. So athletes coming onto the program, working through significant injury or when they retire or step away from the program after no longer being a part of the squad.

So those two are the biggest areas along with I'd say wellbeing and, and mental health. It can be anything Sue and over the last 15 years, as you can imagine, if you've got a group of, at the moment it's 33 women, I was looking after the men and the women, so I'd have about 65 athletes on my caseload. Now they can come through the door with any anything and it has been literally <laugh> anything and it's being in a position where you can help. The how of what we do is very much coaching and mentoring. So the role used to have a, an advisor part to the role that was whilst performance lifestyle advisor. It's now performance lifestyle practitioner and coach, because the ‘how’ is not to give advice, it's actually to help the person find the answer themselves.

So a lot of good coaching skills come into play. So good questioning, very good listening, helping them figure out what it is they need to do and where they need to go. Sometimes it, it can be very transactional because it's about how do I sit and exam a board or how do I, you know, and that, that that's a little bit different. But, but for some of that work in the career development or managing transition space, it's more about helping them on their journey, and helping them figure out who they want to be and how they want to plan for the future.

Sue Anstiss

I was reflecting, as I prepared for this interview that you and I reconnected back in 2011 when, you were exploring work experience opportunities exactly that for the England hockey players. And as a result, Kate Richardson-Walsh came to work with us at Promote PR and while she was working for us, the Women's Sport Trust approached her to be patron of the new charity. And I went with her to the first meeting, met Tammy and Jo and ended up as a founding trustee of the charity. So 10 years later, the rest is history, but thank you for that instigating that that's how those things start and kept moving isn’t it, too?

Emma Mitchell 

You’re very welcome Sue, and thank you for being one of those, employers who thought outside the box and was willing to be a little bit flexible and, and say, Okay, come, yeah, come and work and do a little bit of part from work. And then Emily Defrond another few years on, on from there. And as you know, I would imagine from both of them that they were incredible.

Sue Anstiss 

Yeah, amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's funny, isn't it? I said that earlier, I wasn't thinking of my own agency at the time as one of those companies when I said that. I really hadn't thought that at all. But yeah, I guess in the way we, we have done too. You talked about those different pillars, those six pillars. Have they changed over the time of your doing this role and, and, and the importance of careers in that transition out? Or has it always been that you've looked across all those elements?

Emma Mitchell 

No, they've developed, they've definitely evolved in, I'd say when I started 15 years ago, it was more career and education were the two main elements. So more of a focus on transitions has certainly developed and how important the whole athlete identity piece is within that and then linked to that mental health and wellbeing, which is, is, you know, it slowly and slow with chinking away at the, the stigma that's associated with, with mental health and, and focusing more on what, what it takes to, to have positive wellbeing. In the financial one as well we have athletes who are on program who are often more than a decade and looking after sort of their financial planning in terms of whether they're considering pensions because obviously the, the lottery award is a, is a grant, that means there's no pension contribution. A number of them have been able to save up and, and look to buy their own flat or house, so mortgages, other other sort of savings. So all of that help look to give as well. 

And learning and development can be literally anything. Again, what we find is the athlete who's curious and will want to go and sort of just discover how they might, what they might learn in a say Athlete to Entrepreneur program, something like that, what they learn about themselves can often then benefit them when they come back into the performance environment. So it, it, it, a big part of it is knowing that experiences away from the hockey pitch, the swimming pool, the track, the, the rowing lake can benefit the person and help them develop, help them have other networks that aren't just within the sport, but that then value them as, as a person and as I say, help with developing other identities.

Because we tend to find that those athletes who have, you know, very much got exclusive athletic identity and who've been on program for a long, long time, those are the ones that quite often have the most challenging transitions away from the sport because they're almost having to go through a process of bereavement to lose that athlete identity and start to work out, okay, who am I? Who am I now that I've stopped, you know, my international sporting career and what do I want to be with, where's my purpose? If we've done some work with the athlete while they're on program, it can still be a challenging transition, but you've got more that's probably gonna help pull them forward

Sue Anstiss 

And how do you ever not let them go? But I remember I interviewed Kate Richardson for the very first, series of the Game Changers and she talked about you then, and that even though coming out the sport, she would still message you and you'd still be supportive and so on. So I feel like you must have hundreds of, former players that still, you know, come to you for support.

Emma Mitchell

I try and stay in touch with all of them because they're, they're wonderful people and I'm, I'm really interested in, in their careers and how they're progressing. What has also happened, and again, this is another element of I'd say of team sport, good team sport, is that they really want to give back and they also quite often want to help. And because they are incredible people, they tend to go on and be very successful in whatever career they, choose to pursue. And quite often I've then been able to say, I've got someone now in the current squad who's interested in that career area. Would you have a call with them, have a coffee with them, tell them about your journey. And they're always wanting to help. We're supposed to keep our support for, well six to 12 months, but I, and it's no that I'm doing loads of extra work there, but just keeping that, those connections and those relationships going tend to mean that there's other benefits for the, the current group as well, as well as me just liking them. So yeah, <laugh>.

Sue Anstiss 

Yeah. Fabulous people. Why would you, why would you not indeed, and I just…obviously only got so long to talk about your, but your highlights from all that time at the EIS especially with hockey and the hockey women and all that they've achieved, so to reflect on how many, one or two of those, what's that like for you having been behind the scenes and, and, and know those women so well? 

Emma Mitchell

We, we see hockey on the television usually the Olympics or the Commonwealth Games such on, we see it and what we don't see as a general public is the hard, incredible amount of hard work that goes on on the, the training pitch in the gym at, at Bisham and then all of those personal stories that are sort of woven into that. And that group that won gold in Rio, the 16 that stood on the podium that, that received the gold medals, but there were another three traveling reserves with them and then there was a wider training squad that was actually 31 in number. So as a number who were left at home, who had done exactly the same amount of training and were a part of that achievement, but just not on the podium. So when I saw the group get on the podium and scream the house down, I felt immense pride for all that they'd done and all they’ d achieved and some of the stories behind, you know, Sam Quek,  third Olympic games that previous to not selected, third one selected and you know, the resilience to be able to continue and come back after disappointment for not being selected for Beijing but then also for London. Incredible. And you know, so you sort of know that extra little bit of the story too. And similarly with the Commonwealth Games squad, the England squad this summer, the vision that the group created back in 2015 is, is be the difference, create history, inspire the future, and knowing that that group hadn't won Commonwealth Games gold and they'd gone on and achieved it as a New England group together, there's a, a significant number of new athletes in the group. Again, very proud knowing the meaning that it, it it has for them and for the sport.

Sue Anstiss 

You mentioned the work that you're now doing with the RFU and I am interested to know what professional sports now for women in terms of rugby and football can learn from those Olympic sports where athletes have been on funded programs for, for many years. What are the key learnings that you think you are able to bring into to rugby?

Emma Mitchell 

I think that the, having gone around the, the domestic clubs within the premiership and, and talked to the directors of rugby or the head coaches, with Charlie Hater about the programs that were in place, it across the board, pretty much, the programs already very professional in nature in terms of the number of coaches, quality coaches, sport science and medicine support. The bit that I think is still to come and it, it, it's there already in some of the clubs but is the more holistic approach to supporting the player. And for me, that support is most successful if it's within the staff team and it's in the performance environment. So rather than it being that you go somewhere else to get this, it's that no, this, this person is sat next to the head coach in the meetings is is watching the training and is there for, you know, a meeting afterwards, but is there and gets to know the person really well so that depending on where their journey takes and the different ups and downs they may have, there's already an established and trusted relationship.

That's a little bit of, what I have sort of tried to share, with the RFU. I think the game, the amount of training that the domestic players do in that club environment is already very close to what would be professional. The challenge you've got is a lot of those individuals who are already working full-time as well, so the players with international contracts, are. in a position where they're full-time rugby players, some of them are also combining work or,  studies, but a lot of the club players are having to do, not unlike what I was talking about earlier, but you know, train at the end of the day or very early in the morning or take an extended lunch break and train, get to the club for four, five o'clock and then go through till nine,  10. And that's the bit that probably needs to be looked at and, and where possible, a shift made. So that training is a little bit earlier in the day, employers who are understanding and supportive can be a bit more flexible with what they want, from that employee. And then you've got more of a dual aspiration approach to, to the professional game.

Sue Anstiss 

It's tricky though, isn't it cause you've got coaches that want the very best squad to win. And I know I've myself spoken to a few athletes that are, not struggling in that environment, but obviously if you've got a career and suddenly training is when you are working, you know, but we can understand the coach wants to, to win the league, et cetera. It's a challenging time to get that balance right, isn't it for player and for team.

Emma Mitchell 

It is Sue and I'd say that the amount of training time within the Great Britain hockey program and sort of clubs within rugby is, it's not dissimilar in terms of number of pitch sessions and strength and conditioning sessions and so on. There's still time in the week to do other things. There definitely professional rugby is not a nine to five, 40 hour week sport. You can't do it. So yes, you can spend a lot of time on some of the training and then obviously all that you're doing to prepare and nutrition wise, all the rest of it. But all of those players are going to need something beyond sport. The nature of the sport also means that some careers will be very short and I think we have a, a duty of care to the playing group to be encouraging them to, and it may not be that they're doing a huge amount, but that they're putting plans in place, having something that takes their mind away from the rugby pitch so that actually when they come back to it, they feel really fresh and energized. They're not sort of focused on the last session and did this go well, did that go well, what's gonna happen with selection? They're actually getting their head in their books for their studies or they’re, they're going off and doing a little bit of part-time work. That's my philosophy.

Sue Anstiss 

I was at an event with a guy from the ECB who had coached, over in Australia actually women there. And he was saying it's almost an unpopular thing. He can't say cause he's a man in women's sport, but that he doesn't want the women's game to emulate the men's and to end up with,  so that they're so focused because he said then you spend the next five years trying to unpick them when they come out the bubble, as you say, through injury or non selection, or what have you, then how do we make, how do we build them back into human beings when they've lost all of that? And he'd love to see a way where women can be well paid and, and properly paid and supported with S&C and everything else, but also, as you say, maintain a life that sits out of a sport. And I loved his openness of like, yeah, that's, that should be our ambition really, isn't it? But it's hard because the men have got it. It's hard not to say we want the same, that doesn't mean to say it's the best thing just because it's what men have done before

Emma Mitchell
 No, exactly. I think there's a, a real part of it is learning the lessons from what, what's happened in perhaps the men's game. Of course all that's going on at the moment. Um, and, and actually, actually think we don't need to do the same thing  we can. How do we have sustainable professionalism that looks after the, the person that is the player. And it could be things sort of more, you know, you're networking well, you're aware that you might be having a conversation with Sue Anstiss, who might introduce you to so and so who, who then might be a future contact for you.  So sort of knowing that as well is, yeah, I think really important.

Sue Anstiss 

Get them all into Women's Sport Collective. That's what we're about! So finally, looking back at your experiences as an elite rugby player and, and a coach, what excites you most about the next few years for, for women's rugby and for women's sport more broadly?

Emma Mitchell 

What excites me most? The prospect of standing in Twickenham stadium with 80,000 people as ticket buyers to watch the women's game. That excites me enormously. I stood next to Sue Day at the England USA game down in Sandy Park in Exeter. Her pride at seeing thousands of people turning up for an international game, but knowing how that is such a goal,  for the sport. I mean obviously we've got England, France at Twickenham next year. I, you know, I dunno what the goal is in terms of is it's 30,000 or do we go,

Sue Anstiss 

It's not high enough. It's not high enough. I think we should go for the, let's do it, let's say it now. I'm so with you there. I think it is a, a lovely ambition to, to have to fill it April 29th. Anybody buy tickets now. 

Emma Mitchell 

Absolutely and also it's the, those rugby supporters, support their local club so that we start to see more revenue coming in through the gate for the women's domestic game. And, and a lot of clubs are already doing fairly well with that, but I think with some like ongoing and sustained marketing and, and really sort of looking after that supporter base, the women's game will start to bring in a little bit more income as well, which will help with the programs that are being delivered.

So I'm very excited about the future for all women's support. I mean, we, you know, we are, we do feel like we're at a bit of a moment in history with, you know, the success of the football team and you know, the cricket team and obviously the hockey team. So within particularly team sports, women's team sports, it's been quite incredible. And they all, you know, I know from the hockey squad, they're all asking how are the Red Roses doing. You know, it's so exciting, did you watch the game?  You know, and they all support each other, which is brilliant to see.

Sue Anstiss

It's always such a pleasure to talk to Emma, so humble, yet so brilliant at what she does. 

Head over to fearlesswomen.co.uk to find out about all the incredible game changers I've spoken to for this and the previous series.

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