Sarah Hunter: What's the future for professional women's rugby

Sarah Hunter is a rugby legend. The world's most capped female rugby player and most capped England player (male or female).  Sarah captains England into a World Cup Final this weekend. A World Cup winner in 2014, Sarah has played in four World Cup Finals, and captained England to Six Nations Grand Slam wins and a record breaking run of over 30 consecutive wins.

Sarah took over the England captaincy in 2015 and in 2016 was name England’s Player of the Year by the Rugby Players’ Association and World Rugby’s Player of the Year and awarded an MBE for her Services to Rugby. Along with discussing how she's managed to keep playing and winning for so many years (Sarah is now 37), we explore why rugby is such a powerful sport for challenging traditional societal perceptions of femininity and how the women's game is leading the growth of the sport globally. 

Thanks to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Episode: Sarah Hunter: What's the future for professional women's rugby
Sue Anstiss (00:00:00):

Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers podcast, where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who do so much to drive, change and challenge the status quo for women and girls across society. I'm Sue Anstiss and I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners Sport, England, who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award. 

It's been, it's been a huge week for my guest today, Sarah Hunter, as it's just been announced that she'll be captaining England as the team, head out to the rugby world cup in New Zealand in October. It's pretty extraordinary to consider that this will be Sarah's fourth world cup.  Along with being a world cup winner in 2014 and leading England in many Six Nations wins. Sarah has clocked up 135 caps for her country. Sarah took over the England captaincy in 2015 and in 2016 was named England player of the year by the Rugby Players Association and World Rugby’s player of the year. She's also received an MBE for her services to rugby.

Sarah firstly, huge congratulations, on your selection. I was lucky enough to be down Ashton gate last week as England celebrated a record breaking, 25 consecutive wins.  How does it feel to be selected and how does it feel to be part of, of such an achievement?

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah. Thank you, you never know with selection, you, even like being a senior player like being captain OF the side, you, you never wanna rest on your laurels. You never wanna take it for granted. All through preseason, you wanna put your best foot forward to, to, to get in the, in the squad. So yeah. Um, Thursday last week was a bit nerve wracking waiting for waiting for that, that message to come through to say whether you were in the, in the squad or not and yeah, like seeing your name, it's amazing. You think all the hard work you've put in over the last few years is, is, is paid off. And it has been quite challenging in the last few years with COVID and injury and things like that. So yeah, to, to finally know you've made the squad and you're gonna be on that plane to, to New Zealand and, and compete at the, the pinnacle of women's rugby is like, yeah, like it it's so ecstatic.  

And then it does come with mixed emotions because whilst you are one of 32 that this squad's so tight knit and we've been through so much and you think, and especially in the, this sort of last three months has been 39 of us. So for seven people not to get on the plane, like your heart goes out for them, like you can only begin to feel what they are going, are going through at that moment in time to find out that all the hard work. It, it just wasn't enough at this moment in time. And yeah, it just, it's sort of bittersweet, you know, you wanna be there for your teammates. You wanna make sure that they're okay while still being happy for yourself. So it was definitely mixed emotions for sure. 

The 25 wins, you know I don't think at this moment in time, you can see the significance of it because it's almost like part of our journey, you know, since that defeat in 2019 to, to New Zealand out in San Diego, it's just been very much focused on us. And it wasn't until Simon started to tell us these figures of different achievement and such, we went along, like you start to recognize just how sort of like momentous like that winning streak is,  but it, our end goal is the world cup, you know, so yes, we're really proud of what we're doing and I think creating, uh, winning momentum is really important for, for the side, but I think job won't be done until, until we get to New Zealand and hopefully we, we can go and challenge for that, that World Cup. And I think those sorts of occasions, you you'll probably look back more when you finish playing and sort of take a step back and go, wow, that that's pretty amazing.

Sue Anstiss:

And you are heading off to the World Cup as clear favorites. Undoubtedly, how do you, as the captain help the team deal with that additional pressure? And is it different than if you were going into the tournament as, as the underdogs, whatever mids might say. <laugh>

Sarah Hunter:

I think, for us, we, we don't talk about it, we don't talk and go, oh my God, girls, like we're number one in the world,  we're favorites to win. Like we, we're quite a grounded side. You know, we don't, we don't think about the, the end goal. We think about the processes to, to, to get us there. And I think we try to internalise everything. So all this like white noise around, going by the press, the media, other nations going, oh, it's England's to lose, you know, they're, overwhelming favorite. It's gonna take like some side to beat them. You know, we don't, we don't talk about it. We just focus in on ourselves and our performance and how much we need to, to get better in certain areas 

If we look around any sport, you know, major championships, how many times the overwhelming favorite has fallen short. And you can't hang a medal around someone's neck before it's happened. You can't give them the trophy. Like it like sort of form goes out the window, like past performances, go out the window. Like it's, it's a game, an individual game there and they're on the, on the day. And, uh, we are, we are very aware of that, especially after 2017 and, and how that went. So that's what we're trying to do. Just keep all that focus on ourselves and try and take all that external noise away.

Sue Anstiss:

And I was gonna ask you about that. Obviously you played in those three World cups already. So 2010, the momentous win in 2014 and then kind of sadness and, and frustration in 2017. So what are the key learnings that you'll take, from those events into, um, championships next month?

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah, I think in sort of 2010, it was first world cup, quite quite young. I'd only really been around a, a few years. So I think I was just learning in terms of a major championship, what it, what it feels like to play in a world cup. I remember on world cup final day, I was like, well, this is the most important match in my life, yet it’s just rugby. And it was like trying to contextualize like how to approach that. Um, so I think that was my learning going into, um, into the, the foreign workup and yeah, 2014, obviously it was a momentous occasion and I, it's still probably the highlight of my rugby career, but I still get like hairs on the back of my neck when I talk about it. Um, and it was such an incredible team. And I think we'd gone through like such a journey between 2010 and 2014.

And it was very much understanding what our roles were, how we put the best performance out for each game. And it wasn't getting like ahead of ourselves to, to the fact we're gonna get to a final and we're gonna win a final. So I think that was, that was one of the, the learnings. And I think on the World Cup final day, I just felt in such a relaxed place. I think the team felt in a relaxed place. I think everyone had done everything at that point that they knew they could do. Everyone knew the game plan. Everyone knew what their role was in it. So I think that that clarity of thought really helped us to win. And then 2017, obviously, if you, if you finish the game at half time, we, we would be world champions. And I think my biggest learning is about for that being able to be as a team, being able to adapt and problem solve more technically and tactically.

And I think especially we've worked really hard in the last few years on our strategy group. And the leaders within the side about who are, who are gonna tactically drive us around the pitch and if things aren't happening, how do we make sure we change them? Cause in that second half against New Zealand, we, we had no answers, which was the most frustrating and disappointed thing. It's like we should have been able to try and put a better case forward, especially after the first half, and fair play to them. Like I've never seen a team, tactically change, a game plan so significantly and execute it to the perfection that they did to, to win a World Cup. And unfortunately, sometimes in sport, you've gotta hold your hand up and say the best you've run on the day and that that's difficult as well. So I think that was the key line and from 2017. And hopefully if we can take all those into this squad and into the next few months, that will set us up in a, in a really strong position.

Sue Anstiss:

In terms of being captain and, and being captain now as, um, you know, across those years, there's obviously lots of strong vocal women in the England squad right now, but what do you think it is? That's kept you as captain for so long?

Sarah Hunter:

Um, I mean the answer will come from Simon, [SW1] but, uh, I definitely think I've tried to become a better leader as, as the years go on. Cause I think as you get older, you feel able to accept feedback, you accept the ability to grow, this growth mindset, everyone now talks about, I feel like I've totally bought into about how I can develop and like improving. I think for, for me, one of my, my things for the squad is about like the standards we set and about how we're, how we're, we're driven like on and off the field and trying to be someone that just will lead by example, whether that's on the pitch, that's off the pitch and that's how we want our, our team to do. And I think I've built confidence in myself in terms of accepting that actually the team needs a lot of different leadership skills and qualities within the team to put it in its best place. And if that's a Marlie Packer like, like getting stuck and into the team, cause we need an emotional response, actually that that's it. If it's a, it's an Emily Scarrett, who's got like the greatest tactical point that we need at that moment in time, it's an Abbie Ward that will like be driven and direct with, with what we need to do then actually being able to understand at that point in time what the team needs. I think I've started to develop and not feel that like it doesn't make me any less of a captain and a leader because I'm asking someone else to deliver that message. And I think that's something maybe in my younger days, I struggled with and felt, um, that responsibility that I should be able to deliver and wear all these hats at the same time. But a big thing for me in leadership is authenticity. And actually sometimes those types of messages or trying to say things doesn't come natural to me and actually people don't buy into it, but we've got some great people who can do that. And actually if you allow them to do it, it just generates like this wonderful leadership team that we have that can actually drive a team in the right direction that actually people really buy in and motivated by that. And I think that's the biggest thing over time that I probably learned about myself and learned about the others. Like what, what skill sets to draw upon.

Sue Anstiss:

I love that, this is almost like a conductor of it all bringing in the things that you need rather than you having to have the answer to everything.

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah, definitely. And I think, I think if I look back to 2017, like it, I found it quite a stressful tournament and I think that's probably cause I like had all this weight, burden and expectation of what I was trying to do. And like I don't think probably utilise the people around me to the best of my ability. And that was certainly a personal reflection, whereas now we've worked hard over the last few years about, about building these leadership teams and we have an off field leadership team as well. So that's a different group of people who, again, it's just sharing the load and allowing other people to pick up that responsibility and, and delegate and out. And I think like it it's made me in a, a much better place.

Sarah Hunter:

Like I feel a lot more relaxed probably going into this world cup than I did at the last one, knowing that I I've just got a great, a great team around me.

Sue Anstiss:

If I can take you back to the beginning, where did it all start for you in rugby in terms of finding the sport?

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah, a long time ago now, as people keep reminding me <laugh> um, but yeah, I was just a little girl, at my primary school girl Gowtham primary school in north Tyneside and one day,  PE teacher, Ms. Bergen told us for PE we were gonna go out onto the backfield and play rugby. And I was thinking, I don't really know what rugby is. It's funny shape ball, but um, yeah, why not? I, I loved sport as a kid growing up, you know, I was into everything that I got an older brother, so I'd play football in the street with the two boys that lived next door who were same age. Like we used to play cricket and smash windows and get into trouble, but yeah, played netball, everything like just really active.

One afternoon, we were running around on the backfield with this, with this ball and I was like, this is amazing. I love this. And went home and told my mom and dad that I'd played rugb. And they were like, oh, that's interesting. Like, great. Like if you're enjoying it that's brilliant. And I had an eight week series from this community coach Mick Hogan who's been at Newcastle Falcons. He's now in charge of the rugby league world cup. So yeah, he was my very first rugby coach. So I feel very lucky that he came and delivered this session that I absolutely loved. And the other person who's really significant in that is the head teacher at the school, Sheila Tekell who I think naturally back, we're talking early nineties, they wanted to come and deliver to boys, but our head teacher was like you can come in. No problem. We'd love you to, there'd be really good, something different, but if you're gonna come and deliver, you're gonna deliver to all our pupils. And this is way ahead of equal opportunities, gender equality in sports and things like that. If she hadn't had that foresight yeah, I definitely wouldn't be sat here talking to you about rugby. Cause I would never, I would never have come across rugby. I just happened to be at the right primary school with the right head teacher and that right first coach who made me fall in love with the game.

Sue Anstiss:

And what was her name again? Give her another shout at that amazing head teacher.

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah. Sheila, Tekell and what's even nicer. Like she's followed in my journey all the way through from being nine and been such a massive supporter and will get messages before games and congratulations and stuff. So, yeah, it's not just from nine. She's been with me every step of the way as well, since

Sue Anstiss:

That's fabulous, isn't it? And I guess that impact of you and then your, the impact of your performance rippling out and inspiring others too. So that's, that's so powerful, isn't it? But it was rugby league that you started playing originally. So where did the transition come into rugby union?

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah, so it was I grew up, it became the biggest Wigan Warriors fan,  went to Grand Finals with my dad. I was lucky enough to go to Wembley and play before a Great Britain Australia game and a curtain raiser. So like rugby league was like my passion and I joined a rugby club and there was a couple of girls, but it was mainly boys and Charlie Wainright accepted me. He was a coach of Gateshead Panthers team and just accepted me for, for another player. It wasn't like, oh, you're a girl and things like that. So, yeah, I played mixed rugby up until the age of 13 when they said, oh, you can't play anymore. And I was like, oh, what, why not? And they're like, that's just the regulations. So then the girls that were in the club tried to set up our own rugby league team. 

And it was pretty tough, back then, there wasn't really a lot of girls around playing, that's when I actually met Katie Daley McClean, at about sort of 14 years old. She played rugby up until an early age union, but there wasn't much union going on either. So, yeah, that's the first time me and Katie met each other as 14 year olds and we tried really hard, like bringing some friends and we, it was just a bit hit and miss. So we had, um, we went down to Lancashire and Yorkshire to play a few games, but it wasn't consistent and then I don't know how it came about, but in 2015 there was like someone, investing in like union and trying to get that up and running and Jo Wells, the woman who was doing it,  knew that I played rugby league.

Got no idea how and just said, oh, do you wanna, do you wanna come down and give it a go? And I thought, oh, how hard can it be rugby league rugby union or rugby? And I remember going to my first session on the back pitches at Newcastle Falcons and running around like a headless chicken. Like it's just, it is very different as a sport.  but as like, I love rugby, it's, it's kind of the same. I'm just gonna have to learn like these new laws and variations if I wanna continue. And that's what I did. And that's sort of the age that I found rugby union and sort of never looked back with it really, since

Sue Anstiss:

It's interesting, isn't it, cause I interviewed Jody Cunningham for the Game Changers too. And obviously their world cup is the same time as your world cup, but a different path of her also playing rugby union university and then going back into rugby league. So it is interesting to see those different paths for, um, the two codes.

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah, it certainly is. And it's great to see like obviously the investment going into rugby league now with their own super league, the fact that they've got their world cup alongside the, the men's world cup. And I think the wheelchair world cup as well for rugby league. So it's great that they're, they're showcasing and it certainly get bigger and better, which is it's great to great to know that now, which whichever one you maybe grow up in and your roots are that you can stay in that pathway and you don't necessarily have to cross over to go back to one. Um, but I know there's like a lot of, sort of jovialness around rugby league and rugby union. I'm just genuinely an advocate of both. Like if it hadn't been for rugby league, I would, I would never have gotten into rugby union. And I've got so much to thank rugby league for, in terms of, I think a lot of how the, the really good traits of rugby league has really been installed into to me and the player that I, I’ve become. So, so yeah.  I'm very much an advocate of, of both and yeah, hopefully now, like girls don't have to necessarily make a decision based on, well, there's not legal, there's not union have to go and do something. Then they can make that decision based on what they wanna do and what they enjoy the most

Sue Anstiss:

And fantastic that you played and you worked hard to come and find those teams create those teams. But we do see still I a huge drop off of, of teenage girls in sport generally. How important do you think it is that we're the work we can do to normalise those images of, of strong sporty women? For teenage girls?

Sarah Hunter:

Oh, it's huge. I think it's absolutely fundamental to, to stopping that dropout and like allowing people to continue on their, their journey. I think, I think we've broken down so many barriers about what the typical sporty person has to look like. And I think rugby's such a great advocacy of,  it's a game for all shapes and sizes from all different backgrounds, especially in the women's game. And I think we've got to keep pushing that message. And I think, I mean, social media has its pluses and also has its negativity to it, but I think it's really allowed, especially ourselves to become visible and to say like, it's all right to play sport. It's right. To have muscles it's alright to be sweaty and for your hair to be a mess because there's a time and place for you to be that. And then there's a time and place for you to be however you want to be it's so, so important to keep pushing that, message that,  sport is a wonderful thing for the mind, for the health, to be part of and the values that teaches you. And I think, um, if we can keep advocating that with young impressional teenagers who have so many different pressures going on in their lives, so how can we keep being with these really positive role models to say, like, if you love something, just have that courage and passion to keep, keep going with it, regardless of what people may think or say that's really challenging for, for young impressionable,  young women, especially. But if we can start to keep breaking down those barriers, we we'll be half solving, half the problem really.

Sue Anstiss:

I know it's anecdotal, but I've heard three friends or parents recently talking about the impact of their daughter, seeing either Hannah Botterman or Shauna playing and actually the I, the positive impact it's made, to their daughters and how they feel about themselves and their bodies and what they can achieve. And you know that I say, that's just me personally, hearing some conversations you think about that multiplied across, especially as you mentioned with the girls getting more social media coverage and more profile, it can have such a huge impact. Can't it?

Sarah Hunter:

Oh, it it's huge. Like you just like, you just have to read Shauna's article on, uh, on BBC podcast to say like she wants other people to, to look at at her and say, ‘well, I can do it’ and show people that it is possible, um, for, for people of color, to, to represent the country and to play rugby. 

Sarah Hunter:

So yeah, it's great that people can see that, you know, like Hannah Botterman, isn't your average looking female, but you know what? She's confident in it. She owns how she wants. She's confident to say, this is what I wanna look like. This is how I wanna dress, but you know what? I'm a great rugby player. I'm an international rugby player who is taking the world by storm and I'm off to a world cup and everyone like growing up, if they can see people who look like them doing sport and thinking, actually there's a world that I can go into. That's pretty special. You know, not thinking that they have to change who they are not thinking that, oh, actually they might not be able to go and do something because of the way they want to do or the way they want to look. But going, yes, I see them. They're amazing athletes. Actually, I, I can keep going. And I feel confident even if it's, even if it's not sport, even if it's just life and they see real positive role models who look like them doing amazing things. And they feel confident enough to say, actually, this is me. I'm happy in my own body. There's other people like me. I'm just going to keep doing what I do.

Sue Anstiss:

We had lots of talk recently about the clothing that women wear for sport. And sometimes it does feel a little bit ridiculous that we are having those conversations in 2022. But lots of conversation around girls playing sport in white shorts. Uh, and obviously that's whether it is club colors and within, you know, national, most of the six nation squads too. Do you think that might put girls off from playing sport?

Sarah Hunter:

I think it could possibly put young girls off. Cause you think about the changes they're going through, the embarrassments that they go through. I look back to when I was a young girl going through puberty and it is such a big change in you that like, you just wanna make sure that you don't have anything that brings even those stresses on even more than they, they already are. If you can do anything to possibly ease those tensions and those worries to allow those young athletes to want to take part in sport and not to go, oh, sorry, I can't play today because I'm on my period, or not wanting to join in with something because they're, they know, uh, in a few days time they may or may not. And where young girls' cycles are, it's not always the same. So, you know, to take that, to take that stress away and just give them the freedom to have that confidence to go out and play because of a color of a short, surely that makes common sense to go, you know what? Let's make it as easy as possible, especially for young young women who we want to get into sport, and we want to keep in the sport. Like we can help them out.

Sue Anstiss :

And are we beginning to have those conversations to drive that change? Do you think we are having enough of those conversations now?

Sarah Hunter:

I think, I think we can. I think we can definitely do more. I think we can always do more, you know, the change in women's sport has been especially in rugby it's just been worlds apart, but it does, and yes, we've got professional contracts and we've got all the support and it's brilliant, but can we do more? Absolutely. It's not change for change and shake. It's change to enhance women's sport, to get more people into the game, to keep more people in, to keep driving it, to be on par with men's sport. You know, we can a hundred percent do more.

Sue Anstiss:

You made your England debut in 2007 and you've played for your country for 15 years. I won't keep reminding you and edging towards potentially the most captaining England player. How have you physically maintained that longevity across that time?

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah. Is a great question. I think your body tends to go through cycles of like times when it's like fit and healthy and like, especially the sport and rugby, like you're gonna pick up injuries, you're gonna pick up niggles that that's the thing with contact sport and like at the time it's difficult, it's difficult to have those injuries but I think like, like of being the player is having that diligence to, to recover and we've had, we've got great medical teams around us. And I think one of the things I've learned over over the years, probably more so in the last two to three than any point in time what my body needs, what it needs to recover, what it needs to be able to be at its best. When I was younger, I was like, I've gotta do every minute of every training session.

I've gotta do every trainer session. And actually sometimes that's at the detriment of making you be able to be in the best physical, performing shape as possible. Whereas now I'm like, okay, like I've got a little niggle here, like tell the physio so they can make a judgment and be like, oh, actually I don't need to do all this session. Or actually in the gym, like I won't do deadlifts.  because it just, my body doesn't like it and it sends… and I'm like, right, well, we'll do something else that manages that. Um, or I know that day after a game, I like to go in the pool because the pool recovery will, will help me. So all these little bits and pieces over time, you've started to accept where your body is like all through preseason. After the first three weeks I've been load managed. 

And it's frustrating because I, I wanna be in every, every minute of every session, but I have to put trust, trust in our medical team, our SST team and the coaching team that they know what they're talking about. And they know that me maybe missing five minutes of one session is gonna put my body in the best PO possible place to be able to perform at the highest level. And that's been a difficult process, but I've learned to accept that, like I'm not a spring chicken anymore. I'm not gonna be able to, to do everything I want to do. So it's starting to learn and understand your body 

Sue Anstiss:

<laugh>, it's really easy. Isn't it? When we know when you've been there. Yeah. And been through it. And what about, um, and, and what about the motivation side? So what keeps driving you when you've literally won everything there is to win six nations grand slams world cup, you know, at what point what's kind of kept you going through that. I

Sarah Hunter:

Think there's, there's a couple of things like I've got this drive to be a better player every day. Like I don't think anyone can ever say I've completed it. You know, I think there's always things that people can get better on, on a daily basis. And that motivation drives me to want to be a better player for England, you know, playing for England's like the biggest honor I could have ever been given. And I, I don't wanna miss out on that. I want to contribute to, to this team's performance. And that's, that's a real motivator, a real drive. Um, and I'm winning a world cup   that is probably what's driven me for the last five years is I, I don't wanna feel like I felt on that day in 2017.

And then like since, um, my nieces got older as well, it's a real motivation to want to like inspire that next generation. Like the fact that she plays rugby. The fact that she's really excited to come and watch me play the fact that after a game she wants to come on the pitch and play rugby. Like, I guess it just changed your perspective on, on things as well. And as a, as a nine year old young girl to showcase to her like, look, anything you want to do is possible doesn't have to be rugby, not at all. But if you can see women who are successful and driven, then hopefully she's got a really good role model to, to live up to.

And I think that's, that's been a real passion of mine to, to make sure I, I set this example for her, but it goes beyond that. Like when I go down to my old club Novacastrians and you look around and you see there's girls at every age group on every team playing with boys, like I think that's really important as well. And I think that as I've got older, I've learned to, to recognise that and realise that it it's more than just myself and that, that, and more than just having a internal motivation is definitely an external motivation of, of what, I can do as a, as an athlete, as an international red rose.

Sue Anstiss:

Can, can I reflect a bit for a moment on the past and the future for women's rugby, for those that are perhaps new to the game, how much have things changed over the course of your career?

Sarah Hunter:

Oh, like probably a podcast in itself. Um, so much has changed.

Sue Anstiss:

<laugh>

Sarah Hunter:

Some of the, the biggest, one of the biggest differences like that has initiated the change was I got pat cat back in 2007 and, um, as England women, we weren't integrated into the RFU. We weren't fully part of England rugby. We had the RFUW so the rugby U for union for women. And so it was a completely separate entity. Like we didn't even have, the same shirt, my first cap shirt that's at home, like framed on the wall is, is it's like a little bud. That's like little that hasn't quite bloomed yet. Like we haven't actually come into full status of being an England women's team, but in 2012 we went fully integrated into, into the RFU and became as one. And I think that's, that probably was the real start of like significant change in terms of investment and where we've got to today.

I mean, I spent 12 years of my international career having a full-time job having to fit in training around, around work. And, and I had, I worked for the RFU for nearly 10 years of that and even I found that difficult and I'm working for an organization that is, is supporting me and they supported me really well, but it was still a struggle. So for the girls that had jobs outside of the RFU, it was so much tougher. So when we got professional contracts in 2019, it, it was literally life changing. Like all of a sudden, like I'm getting paid to do something that I've fitted in around a full-time job. And ultimately it was my hobby.

It was like something that I love to do. And that was, that was just staggering. I knew it would come a new professional was come at one point, but never in a million years, did I think I would have the opportunity to,  be a professional and I I'm so very grateful for that. And people often ask that like, so do not wish you'd start your career now when obviously there's so many significant change. I said, no, I, I feel really fortunate that I've gone through this change of the, the women's game and experienced it. Like, I feel like I can really appreciate being a full-time athlete because of everything I've been through at that point. And, like you see like the investment into the game, like professional contracts, but staffing in terms of resources.

I think when we first started, I think we had two coaches, a physio and a doctor and a part-time manager. And now I think we've got about 20 staff going across to, um, to New Zealand, you know, so that investment, the investment in the women's game, the change in, fan base is just becoming incredible. And it gives me like goosebumps to think, like Ashton gate, 11,000 on a Wednesday night, like, it's, it's incredible to, to think, you know, like all the games and the six nations. I had a real pinch moment, at King's Home. Um, like it's just synonymous with, with rugby, King's home, the shed everything and walking out and just hearing the noise. I was like, wow, this has to be a turning point of, of, um, for, for the red roses fans and what we're gonna achieve. Like, and I, I genuinely hope it will, will just keep on, on growing.

Sarah Hunter:

And I think the biggest thing of that is when you walk around afterwards and there's so many young girls I mean, it's a very different audience to, to the men. So you've got people of all genders, all ages, but as part of our legacy to inspire that next generation, seeing those young girls in their rugby kit, and you're seeing similar faces. So they're now following you around, they're like they have different favorites. You go and sign that they're like, oh, is, um, is Scars coming along? She's my favorite or Sarah, or like Kilder. I'm like, yeah, it'll be on their way. Like, so everyone's learning who people are. And I think that's also such a significant change. I probably got my first cap, which was the most special moment for me, but there was probably only about 200 people in the, in the stadium. I mean, it wasn't even the stadium. It was that old Albanians rugby club and it was a wonderful venue, but it's not an international venue. And I think most of those people would've been friends and family of the players playing. So that's, that's one of the most significant, and I think one of the most important and special changes that, that we've seen in the game.

Sue Anstiss:

That's lovely. Thank you. That, and I hadn't even thought in terms of that fan growth and I mean, I know it, I see it and experience it, but, um, sometimes you think more about the funding coming in and the support, but of course, as players, uh, is vast what you've, you've seen there, I’m interested to know what role you feel the women's game can play in the future of rugby as a whole on a global scale. And we do know, you know, the men's game, especially in the UK struggling a little bit right here and now isn't it in terms of, uh, financial viability, some of the other kinda issues, around the growth of sport. So from that perspective, how important do you think the women's game can be for rugby?

Sarah Hunter:

I think it's huge. You know it's the biggest growing area of the sport. I think what England, if not worldwide, and you think look across the globe and you look about the investment being put into all these different countries and different countries turning professional. And I think it's kind of like an untapped audience at the minute. It's like this almost a sleeping giant ready to, to be woken up to, to explode. And I think some of the things world rugby are doing in terms of… we've. We've obviously got the world cup in 2025, which is amazing but then they've joined up the other two where the country to try and build on legacies from, from sort of the, their men's competitions. But I think you'll find a stage where women's rugby is as a spectator. It's probably like goes back to sort of the traditional heart of rugby the way it's played.

And I think that's what excites people to come and watch it. You know, there's a lot of running rugby. The skillset is so incredibly high that he's still getting people where it's like, oh, I didn't realize how good women's rugby was, but because it's more visible, because it's being broadcast. I genuinely think we're seeing a change where actually young girls and boys they're playing rugby, they're seeing rugby. So they're not necessarily seeing it women's or men's, it just becomes second nature to them. It becomes the norm. And I think then you then create more fan bases. You create more people they see their children playing it and, and things like that. 

So I think, I think it's got a huge part to play and I think it can really start to, to generate its own income to the, the levels men. Can you, you look at what women's, football's doing globally. I mean, you just gotta look at the lionesses and how they gripped the nation. And it didn't matter that it was women's football. I mean, the fact that they'd sold out Wembley before they'd even got to the final, you know, we're behind that just because of how it, it it's panned out. But if we look to what women's football's doing and we can emulate, emulate that, I think that would have such a massive impact on, on the, the sport itself. And then actually we've been so reliant on getting investment and funding from what revenues the men's game in comes in. Like, hopefully it becomes equal or potentially a part where actually we, we are supporting the men's game as they've supported us. And it's a, it's a more equal basis. It's not a them and us, it's a, like, it's just rugby. And I think women's rugby certainly has the power to do that. If it stays on the trajectory that, that it is at the minute, which is, which is so exciting.

Sue Anstiss:

Talking more about the domestic game and the women's top league in England, the premier fifteens last season was incredibly exciting at times for all fans, Loughborough fans too. Um, but it's still quite hard to watch and find sometimes on a streaming service and, and it's disappointing when it's not on free to air where we know it could reach that huge audience. Do you feel the broadcasters are missing out on an opportunity?

Sarah Hunter:

Yeah, I think last year was the most competitive Premier 15s there’s ever been like everyone seemed to be beaten everyone. I think it went down to the last day of this, the like regular season to find out who would be playing people. And the week before in terms of who was gonna make the top four, which I think by Christmas, it's pretty done and dusted and that's it. But so, so that's, that's great. And it seems a shame that people are missing out on, on these great games to, to be able to watch. And I think one of the things that we've probably realised from sort of more international fixtures being put on free to air, people watch them, like the audiences have been so good. It's like, come on like this great game and it's not just international, international games, the stories between individual teams, like when you've got England players going against each other, you've got people from all over the world globally international players, like being competitive.

We can week out. I think, I think you'd like to say right, let's get it. Let's get behind again, keep referring back to football. But I turned on, um, the BBC on, on Sunday watching, I think it was, um, Man City against Aston Villa and it's just, there's, there's an audience there for it. And I think it would do the domestic game so, so much good. We talk about the WSL where they've got to and the fan bases is that they create and the money they generate. Like that would be amazing to think that the premier 15 side can be, can be fully professional. And I know that RFU have big plans and they launched their, their ten year sort of strategy on it and the investment in that.

And, and I know that broadcasting is part of that and I think it has to be because there has been a significant change. I mean, we get, we had more games than we haven't had. Like they were on BBC, I play and stuff last year. But again, we go back to the question, do you think we can do more? Absolutely, not settle. Let's not just settle at okay. Like let's go and, and keep pushing, like keep asking, like cause  the more we ask, the more we'll get and the better the game will be in. And I think that's certainly certainly true. Like again, you talk about like how do you get more girls into and staying in sport? Well, if they can see it on the TV and they can see what it's about, then again, they're more likely to, to be invested in it and want to want to keep in sport.

Sue Anstiss:

And you alluded to that progression that we are seeing with the Premier 15s, with more investments and so on  and the new version of a league and new teams potentially in 2023, but I just wonder whether you feel can women's clubs only thrive when they are linked to a professional men's team, which kind of feels that's where we are going,  or is there a place in the league for clubs historically like the Litchfields of this world where it could be just a club that focuses on the women's game?

Sarah Hunter:

I think, uh, it's a really difficult question to answer. I spent, uh, 11 years at Litchfield, and it it's sad to know that they weren't in that, that, that Premier 15s when it, when it started and you look at what was it Waterloo yesterday announced that they were having to pull out the leagues. And it's really sad cause they're the traditional, the traditional clubs. And it's almost following what happened in the men's, world. Isn't it like you look at when the premiership first started and the, the teams that were in that top league and, and where they are now, it's, it's not the same. And I think as much as a, a rugby traditionalist like I am and the clubs that I play for, you'd love to see them at the heart of it. I think rugby's gone so far now. I, I don't think it necessarily has to be aligned with the men's team.

Sarah Hunter:

Like you look at Loughborough lightning, for example, I, I know we've got great partnership with Northampton Saints, and it is a partnership it's very much a partnership. It's very much an equal setting. So I think, I think that that's brilliant and having the support of it, but uh, like being a absolute sole dependent and only, a like men's club, I don't think necessarily you have to do you look at like Hartbury and Gloucester again, they're very successful in the relationship they have. Um, but unfortunately where we're going now is you need to be able to have someone that can fund and invest in the amount that these new strategies, are asking for, but in terms of where they need to take the game and where we want to take the game with provisions for all your costings, whether that's medical coaching S and C, like, I don't know, you, you're looking at fees for players, whether that's complete salaries, whether that's match fees, whatever it might be like, that's now a big part of a budget.

So you are asking a franchise for one of a better word to be able to have that money, to be able to do that for the women's game. And do these more traditional clubs have that, that can give the women's game, what it needs to have. Like, I don't think, I don't think they do, unfortunately. Like, unless you've got some multi-million pound owner at, at Litchfield, for example, like they're not gonna have 500 K plus to invest in one team and that's one team they're not even talking about their, their other, other men's section their women's section their many in juniors, their colts, their veterans. It's really sad to think, but you've gotta balance that up with where the game needs to go. Um, so I think it's a, a, a really difficult question, but if I'm being honest, I think we've probably seen the, the last of your traditional rugby clubs. Are there other ways and means of doing it? Absolutely. Possibly. but I think you've gotta have that key investment with a lot of money to be able to take the women's game, to, to where, where it needs to, to go. Ultimately,

Sue Anstiss:

You have a player coach role at Loughborough Lightening. So I'm interested to know how that's been for you. And obviously we've seen a few high level female coaches as well along the lines of Giselle Mather, Susie Applebee. I think Rocky Clark just received her level four coaching award, but it is still mainly men coaching in the women's game. What do you think needs to change there?

Sarah Hunter:

I've really enjoyed my, time as player coach. It's been very different. It's very different to just being a player, but it's challenged me in, in a number of ways, in terms of how I manage my time, how I manage being a coach, how I managed being a player, when to be a player when to be a coach. It was difficult at first, very difficult.  I almost went more coach more than player and that impacted performance and stuff. So now it's, I feel like I've got a good balance around it. 

And coaching's something that, I love, like I've done it like intermittently throughout my career and yeah, there's, there's nothing more rewarding than seeing people become better players. And it's certainly something I would like to, to try and develop and spend time in becoming a better coach, but I'm sure there'll be plenty for that when the boots are hung up. But it's great to see, female coaches in teams.

And I think what you've got now is you've got players that have been in the game coming through and have some real good experience, both from a technical tactical point of view, but also like they've been there, they get it, they understand it. And I'm not saying that all good players will make good coaches, but a lot of them do. And I think now they're having that confidence and the support to go, actually, why don't you, you give it a go or they might have been doing some coaching and they've gone through their level two level three. And as you say, like a lot of people onto their level four, and I think it's becoming the norm. Whereas I think Giselle for years and years was sort of the outlier, whereas now you look around and, you are seeing more female coaches through, and I think world rugby by pointing, you know, one female coach to each team for, for the world cup has, has been a real, great statement to say, actually we want more female coaches globally at the early end and it's having that support and that confidence to, to develop that coach.

Sarah Hunter:

And, you know, one day I absolutely love to see England coached by a female. I think it would just be, I think it would be brilliant. So I do think people need to be encouraged young, like females, like maybe from a young, young, young age, cause there's some people out there who don't wanna play, but I'm sure they make great coaches. So I think we just need to encourage more females to have those opportunities and put them in environments where they feel safe to coach and you're gonna make mistakes, but making mistakes and, and learning from them and, and not feel like you're failure, I think is a, a really important to, to encourage more females into the game.

Sue Anstiss:

And it might that be an ambition for you that England role?

Sarah Hunter:

Who knows? It might be, might be a few years to, to come, but yeah, I'm kind of like a little bit addicted to England rugby. So, um, but yeah, uh, I mean maybe, maybe who knows one day, I mean, it would be an absolute honor, like if you then got the opportunity, but would, we'd have to see where that goes.

Sue Anstiss:

And finally, obviously we are hoping you're gonna go off and, and win in New Zealand, but if you can think beyond that, uh, what's next for, for Sarah Hunter?

Sarah Hunter:

Great question. I guess come back and then go back to Loughborough and helping them in the, the Premier 15s season is probably the most immediate answer. I don't know. I, I kind of living like one bit of  time, but I certainly would like to, to try and develop as, as a coach and see where, where that goes and whether I can progress. And like, it might turn out that I'm, I just am where I am and I might not go on and that that's fine, but I I'd like to see, I'm quite quite a driven person to, to want to know if I can get better in certain areas. So that would be something to, to try and look into and, and Loughborough have been brilliant. They said they'll support me with being a coach and, and that, so, um, so yeah, I, I don't think it'll be too far from, from the African violet at this moment in time. 

But yeah, I think the thing is like rugby's such a, a wonderful world and the opportunities that come up and the doors that open are, are so incredible. And I think the one thing going into this, I just feel really, really relaxed about what the possibility is for what's next. I think the fact that, you know, I do have a job at Loughborough and I don't have to make any decisions about what is next after the world cup. I can just put all my focus in that and yeah, I guess your path will take you to, to where you go next. And that's pretty exciting. And I think that the great thing I think is women's rugby at the minute is in, it's almost on the crest of a wave and to be in that and be part of that and to see what opportunities might come up is yeah, is super exciting. We'll what will be, will be Sue.

Sue Anstiss:

Thanks so much to Sarah for talking to me, especially at such a busy time ahead of the World Cup. I'll certainly be setting my alarm like many others for some early morning viewing. 

If you'd like to hear more about the other women driving change across sport, do visit fearlesswomen.co.uk where there are details of all of my guests from this and the previous series.

Other women working in rugby that I've spoken to include Maggie Alphonsi, Karen Finley, Katie Sadlier, Sue Day, Ally Donnelley, and Shauna Brown. 

You can also listen to all the podcasts on the website and find out about the Women’s Sport Collective, a network for all women working in sport. 

You can sign up for the Fearless Women Newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport, and there's more about my book,  Game On, the unstoppable rise of women's sport. 

Thanks again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers through the National Lottery and to our production team at What Goes on Media, including our executive producer, Sam Walker.  Finally, thank you to my brilliant colleague, Kate Hannon at Fearless Women. 

Do come and say hello on social media while you'll fire me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook @sueanstiss And if you have five minutes, it would be great if you could rate or review the podcast as it makes a big difference to help us reach new audiences. 

The Game Changers,  fearless women in sport.

 [SW1]Just FYI…this is the second time she has mentioned “Simon” without any reference to who he is…not everyone listening will be aware, so do make sure you jump in and clarify.