Shaunagh Brown: Re-thinking gender stereotypes in sport and society

Shaunagh Brown is a professional rugby player for Harlequins and England who encourages us all to re-think gender stereotypes in sport and across society.

A former Hammer Thrower who competed at the 2014 Commonwealth Games, Shaunagh trained as a British Gas engineer and a commercial diver, before becoming a full-time firefighter with the Kent Fire and Rescue Service.

Now on a 3-year sabbatical from the fire service, Shaunagh is a full time, professional rugby player, currently playing for England in the Women’s Six Nations having won the Grand Slam in 2019, 2020 and 2021 and for Harlequins who won the Premier 15’s Final in 2021.

Shaunagh recently starred in an Amazon Prime documentary  ‘No Woman, No Try’ which explores inequality through the lens of rugby and the women and men championing change across the sporting community.

After winning the Premier 15s final with Harlequins in 2021 she made a passionate  speech that went viral.

A huge thank you to our partners, Sport England who are kindly supporting the next three series of The Game Changers podcast through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Shaunagh Brown: Re-thinking gender stereotypes in sport and society

Sue Anstiss:

Hello, and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport. What can we learn from their incredible journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond.

A massive thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast through the National Lottery. It's been a pretty incredible rise to international rugby for my guest today, Shaunagh Brown. Shaunagh only started playing the game at 25 and two years later, she had her first international cap.  Before rugby, Shaunagh had a career in athletics where she represented England at hammer in the 2014 Commonwealth Games. Her fascinating career path has as a gas engineer, a commercial diver and a firefighter. She joined Harlequins in 2016, made her England debut in 2017 and went on to receive a full-time contract with the Red Roses in 2019. So Shaunagh let's start with last night. It was the premier of No Woman, No Try, an incredible new Amazon Prime film about women's rugby in which you have a starring role. So how did it feel to see yourself on the big screen?

Shaunagh Brown:

It was, it was overwhelming, mainly, but then there's a part of me that thinks like, these things are always in my head. Like, he's very easy for me to talk about these subjects and, and I'm sitting there watching it. Okay. She's right. Like talking about myself, I go, she's right. You hear that? Yeah. She, she knows. And I find myself like agreeing with myself, which is a, you know, is a good place to be, cause I it's genuinely what I believe like, and I never, never have a script for these things for me, it's a consistent message that I like to give across the whole time. And, and it's truly genuinely me and you know, it's very easy for me to be me.

Sue Anstiss:

And can you tell us a little bit about the documentary and what it explores? 

Shaunagh Brown:

Yeah. So, so the headline of it or, or the subtitle is, is not a rugby story, but a human one. And even afterwards, like speaking about it with different people, how relatable the whole journey was and like so many issues that we discuss and the differences between how men and women are treated in sport, how we are financially differently supported. And, and when I say differently, obviously, I mean lesser supported. Some people, you know, not even knowing we exist as a team, not even knowing that women play rugby, but then also on the other side of it is once, once you're in there, you've got the kit issues, you've got what coaches we are given and, and you know, and it's not talking about me and my club specifically, but you know, I go to a lot of rugby clubs and you see the widely different standards and you know, there's clubs in the prem who are still not really in line with their men's teams.

If clubs at top level are not there yet what hope have the community level, got?  But it's, it's, it's about having good people around us and encouraging them to do the right thing. And you know, the people making these decisions. And again, this is what we talk about in the film is, having those honest conversations and, and as a woman, if somebody asks you like, what, what could we fix? Like be honest. Yes, women's rugby is in, is in a good place that it's in an okay place and it's going in the right direction, but there's a hell of a long way to go. And so just be honest, because I can assure you, there's a lot of people at the top tables of any of these rugby clubs that have no idea of our struggles.

And Steph Evans talks about kit for me, that's, that's one of the most powerful pieces and how constantly she's told, well, we don't need to buy women's kit cuz we just, we, you can only afford one type of kit in terms of batches numbers, and you know, all that sales stuff. And she goes, okay, fine. Well, why don't you just buy all women's kit? And they say, well, that's ridiculous. And she goes, exactly.  so it's just those, those real life like hard truths that hit home and you just think, oh yeah, like I've literally, I've never thought about like that before.

Shaunagh Brown:

So this, this film is just all about getting people thinking. And as women in rugby, we, we know all this stuff and, and this is our everyday, but what we need to do is get people who aren't necessarily rugby players like watching it and realizing this is almost everyone's struggle.

Sue Anstiss:

And Ugo Monye also features in the film, a former guest on The Game Changers, and there’s some really lovely interaction between the two of you clearly, he's a big supporter, of your career. But when I spoke to him on the podcast, he did say you wouldn't his own daughters to play rugby right now as a set up for professional players isn't yet good enough. Does that surprise you to hear him say that?

Shaunagh Brown:

Uh, short answer? No, it doesn't because Ugo’s a very honest person and he is, he is within the sort of women's game. And I, I speak to him personally and like we have phone calls and chats about things and it's almost, he's getting, he's getting so on board that like, like me and, and like other women, when we hear it, these things don't surprise him anymore. Like when we hear about the different standards and you know, hearing about people who, who go to work eight, nine hours a day and come to training. So he he's now in a place where he's defending it as well. And, and it'll be on pitch and someone moans that, oh, there's like four balls dropped in that game. That's disgraceful. These are professional players. Number one, you know, they aren't, but number two, they might have dropped four balls, but they've also done a 42 hour working week and come to training.

Shaunagh Brown:

And, and as a team, as a, as a club team, we get about three hours rugby together a week. And as I can imagine, like three hours in a week to play premiership level of rugby is not a lot of time. So, you know, something's got to give, but no, it doesn't surprise me. That Ugo is being more and more honest about it because you know, when a giant like Ugo speaks, people listen and this is what we need to encourage more and more people to not only realize that our struggles and our issues, but to say them out loud. And again, just get people at the top who can make these changes and differences, get them listening. Because I fully in full belief that if they know how bad we have it, sometimes they will want to do something about it. But at the moment they, they just don't know because not enough people to say out loud,

Sue Anstiss:

Brilliant, brilliant to hear. And, and in terms of male allies do you think the men's game and male players can do more?

Shaunagh Brown:

For sure. Men and male players can do more because like rugby is seen as a man’s sport and particularly as a white middle class man's sport. So there's like so many different angles, even just in that, that people could, can make a difference. And, you know, someone like me from Peckham in south London grew up single mom went to non-fee pay in school. Like just me talking about rugby, all of a sudden then puts it into the minds of other people who, who grew up in a similar situation to me. And, and that's not necessarily skin color that's even necessarily gender that could be socioeconomic status that could be sort of single parent status, whatever it is.

So just more people talking about issues and situations that don't necessarily affect them directly. So like men speaking up for women is powerful. White people speaking up for black people is powerful.

People from fee pay in schools, speaking up for people from non-fee pay in schools is powerful. So that whole allied from all the different angles, you know, I, I will happily stand on any platform and talk about women and, and the, equalities that, that we don't have in equality of opportunity, more importantly. And it'll just be like, oh, like, Shaunagh’s going on about, about women and women's issues again, Ugh, like pipe down. But as soon as a man, any man of any status starts talking about women issues, it's like, oh, this doesn't directly affect him. And yet he is so passionate about it. Oh, maybe I'll like, maybe I'll have a little listen in. So yeah, allyship is, is gonna be the way 

Sue Anstiss:

Fantastic, The clip of you talking so passionately at the end of the Premier 15s final went viral last year. it's also featured in the film and I can share a link to it in the show notes and I watch it repeatedly. And even seeing that again last night made me a bit emotional watching it. and one of the most powerful lines that resonated with me is “This is not just about rugby. This is not just about sport. It's about women and women's sport. So I think I know the answer to this now you've just told me, but had you planned those words before you were called to the interview?

Shaunagh Brown:

Not at all, not in the slightest, because first it would've meant I had to back myself to get a player of the match. Like I'm a, I'm a strong willed, stubborn person, very confident in my abilities, but never would I say, yeah, I'm going for player of the match this game!

Sue Anstiss:

In the final!

Shaunagh Brown:

So no, definitely didn't plan to say those things, but as mum does speak about it in the film, like these things are always in my head. as soon as somebody asks me a question on something like that, I've got an answer for you and not cause it's rehearsed, not because I've written it down somewhere, but it's just cause I'm speaking from the heart every single time and yeah, it, it does get emotionally draining sometimes actually talking about it. But when you realise the impact it's having and it's getting other people to think and getting other people to look from a different perspective and from a different lens, it does make it all worth it.

Sue Anstiss:

And you talk about that response that it had, which was phenomenal in terms of the reaction to it. So how did that make you feel at the time

Shaunagh Brown:

Humbled and grateful, because like I've got 24 caps for England been part of an England team that's won three grand slam six nations championships and

Shaunagh Brown:

Ultimately, it's not always the winning bit. It's not always the ‘on pitch’ bit that really hits home because you know, we won the Premiership that day. Fantastic. But more importantly, and the thing that hit home to people was just those words I used and that then drives me, even on pitch. So as much as you know, my body hurts all of the time, I struggle to get up and down my stairs on a Sunday morning, I wake up and I go coaching on a Sunday morning. I think, why am I doing this? And then I get there, and I've got these 20 little girls just buzzing around like bees go. “Shaunagh! Now you're here. Like

I’ve been waiting all week to see you’. And I'm like, right, this is why I do it. Or, or I get the messages in my inboxes just saying, ‘thank you’. Number one. Thank you for being you or because of how you are. I've seen a change in my little girl, like a, a good change, because of how, how big and strong you girls are. Like I weigh 98 kilos and I'm five foot, 10. I'm not little, but I will rock around in a bikini. No problem. And I I'm okay with that .I've got a lot of meat on me. I've got a lot of fat on me. Like I've got all sorts going on, but if I wanna wear a bikini, I'm gonna wear a bikini on the beach            and it's just that kind of that visual role model that so many people haven't had growing up and it's becoming more and more fashionable to, to kind of look ‘every day’ rather than the whole, the filter situation, the Instagram filters and the TikTok filters and you know, this perfect life.

I also make an effort to not take hundreds of photos to just put one on and I'll put ones where my face looks a bit skewiff. I've recently noticed my eyes are a different size. One's bigger than the other. So I thought, well, I've got to point this out. It's like these real good close up shots. I'm like, look at my eyes! They're different to each other!  And so, yeah, it's just making an effort to, to not only be the change that, that you want to see, but just to get people to realise so much of this stuff on social media, isn't real life. And you've just got to, you've got to have fun with it.

Sue Anstiss:

I love that. To be real .So take me back to the beginning. First, Shaunagh Brown, where did you grow up and what was family life like?

Shaunagh Brown:

The beginnings actually Waterloo in a council estate, like had a great time, just out played, just went out and played all the time. Mom would go to work. Me and my brother and sister would, would go out to play for hours and hours. And then when I was eight, we moved, what I thought, and was told was the countryside and because we moved to Peckham

So it's a bit further out like there's bus stops. There's only four bus stops near my house instead of 10, you know, this is makes it the countryside as it was at the time. So yeah. And I grew up in Peckham from the age of, from eight to 16, went to school Addey and Stanhope in New Cross and started competing in athletics most importantly because of PE teachers. And so many people in sport are, are there because of their PE teachers. So I can completely relate to that and anytime there was a sports competition I could possibly enter, she would put me forward for it and I yeah started athletics age 12 and, and was in that shot put, discus for many, many years. I went to a World Youth championship, World Junior Championships, a European Junior Championships and a Commonwealth Youth games. And I’m aged sort of 17, 18 19 at this point, just traveling the world, realizing that my life is not the same as everyone's life. 

And it, it just gives you a bit of that, that grounding to sort of see where you are in life, see what you might possibly want to be, but also what you don't want to be and the person you don't want to be. So yeah, it was a fantastic experience, like Commonwealth Youth Games in India, 2008 was even now like top three best experiences in my life and I met people who were from places that are not even big enough to be called countries. Like they they're called territories. And just realizing that, you know, people live on an island with 2000 people and that is the population. 

Sue Anstiss:

And you clearly had great success in athletics and field events and so on. So why did you stop?

Shaunagh Brown:

So I, I got to Commonwealth Games 2014 and that was like the pinnacle of my career. And I, I did actually aim for Rio 2016 Olympic games, but got to a point where I wasn't improving enough in terms of my distances. Like my hammer, wasn't going any further. I'd made changes, I'd changed coach I'd, I've moved house and changed a lot of circumstances to help me throw a hammer further essentially. And yeah, wasn't seeing the changes on the, on the field So after the Commonwealth games, I just thought this is not, this is not for, for me long term.

Shaunagh Brown:

I'd fallen that love of it. Like I'd never, I was never getting paid for and I always just told myself once I fill out a love of it, like I had to end it, I wouldn't wanna be in a place where I just hated going to training or hated going to competitions and all of that. So before it got sort of too bad, I left and I, I actually told myself I was gonna retire from sport and be a, be a normal person and go to work and, and come home and, you know, watch TV and have dinner and go to bed and wake up.

Shaunagh Brown:

But in saying that I wanted to be a normal person who was a commercial diver I went to do my diver training but yeah, that, that normal life of no sport lasted literally two weeks and I can't do this. I'm bored. I can't, I can't just get home from work and sit here. So I called up my local rugby club, Medway RFC, and just said, can I come along? And they said, yeah, of course you can. And yeah, just started training once a week with them. That was all they trained.

Sue Anstiss:

Um, and I was just gonna mention, you mentioned being a, a commercial dive. It is fair to say you've had quite a fascinating and unconventional career pathway before rugby. Cause firstly, you were a gas engineer and how does someone get to be a gas engineer? I don't feel it kind of role that a careers teacher would suggest to you. So how did, how did that come about?

Shaunagh Brown:

So going through secondary school, I was in a gifted, talented program and my teachers are always telling me, you you're gonna go to Oxford or Cambridge. but yeah, so I had that instilled in me, but then I was still growing and, and learning myself as a person and got to the sort of year 11 stage. And I thought academics wasn't for me. I, I much preferred the practical learning. And so I was convinced I wanted to an apprenticeship and I was obsessed with being a mechanic. I said, I'm gonna be a mechanic. They go, Hmm, you can be a mechanical engineer.’ Yeah. But that's sounds like paperwork and drawing and sitting at a computer. I'd rather be the mechanic who'd done what the mechanical engineered designed and they'd go, oh, so it was almost, I disappointed them because I didn't, I didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge. I didn't go to any university at all

I was just applying for apprenticeships, any, anything and anyone. And British gas would just happen to be one of those companies, applied for a job. And honestly, to this day, I don't didn't know what I was applying for.

Shaunagh Brown:

I was just applying for a job as an apprentice in so yeah, that was, that was how I got a job as an installation engineer with British gas.

Sue Anstiss:

And how long do you do that for? How long were you there for?

Shaunagh Brown:

So yeah, in total with British gas, with, with them five years and, and they treated me very, very well. Like British gas had a lot of involvement as to how I was able to make it to the 2014 Commonwealth games. And yeah, I'll always be, be thankful to them for that.

Sue Anstiss:

Excellent. No, it's important to give that shout out. Isn't it off, of businesses supporting athletes of female athletes too. I did my Padi on my honeymoon 25 years ago and I love swimming, but I found the whole mask thing quite claustrophobic and scary. So you did move on to become professional diver. Was that a scary thing?

Shaunagh Brown:

Yeah, it was actually cause even, and again, it's quite a theme, I'd never really been, I'd been scuba diving once and scuba diving is very different to commercial And I thought I've just spent like a few thousand pounds on this course, this training course. And I'm there people going, oh yeah, like I've dived for years. And I love scuba. Like how many years you've been diving? I was like, I've been scuba diving once on holiday in Egypt and now I'm here like, oh, okay. 

So I remember the first time I put the helmet on my head and you sort of lose all your senses cause you're in a seal in the hat. I was like, oh my gosh, I don't wanna do this. This is horrible. And you, and you stand up cause you're still dry and you walk to the water. And I was like, oh, like I really don't wanna do this. But then as soon as you get in the water, it, everything changes like it all lifts and it's feel a lot lighter and, and, and very free like, like you do in scuba and yeah, again just didn't really know what I was doing there but got through it and enjoyed it. But it could, it, it can be scary at times because so many people don't realize you can't see, like I've done a lot of work in the River Thames. You can't see most of the time. You just have to use any other sense. And when you can't see, you hear a lot more and I don't read all these is about, they found seals in the river Thames previously and I’m like ‘what's that noise?’ but then little did I know it would be the guys on top, in the, in the boat on top, like just banging things. Cause they know I was paranoid about all these noises. So they get a hammer or spanner and just bang it on the boat. Like, oh! you lot winding me up again?  Nope. Nope.  Don’t know what you're talking about, but yeah, it was, again, it's just one of those careers where you just have a, a good time with your mates and that's how you get through it because you go through the hard times together

Sue Anstiss:

And then you went on to become a firefighter too. So it does feel like you've picked these careers that are traditionally viewed as more male careers or at least male dominated. Was that a conscious decision? Do you think internally to break down some of those gender stereotypes or are they just the roles that have appealed to you?

Shaunagh Brown:

Not, not a conscious decision at all. Um, growing up with, with a mom who just let me basically do what I want, just let me do things that kept me happy that kept me active, kept me out of the house, you know, kept me out of trouble. These worlds that, that I found myself in was just me doing what I wanted to do. Like it wasn't, I wasn't trying to be a trailblazer. I wasn't trying to be the only woman in the room. I wasn't trying to stand up for women. I honestly just doing what I wanted to do And, and I knew from a young age that I could do anything if I, if I wanted to and, and hence, hence what I'm doing now, actually rugby.  Even like what? Eight years ago, I'll be like rugby. What's that? boy. That's a sport of a posh white boy. It's not for me, but yeah, just give it a go.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned Medway and coming through Medway and playing first there. So how, how did you then find your way to Harlequins? What was that next step through?

Shaunagh Brown:

So I spent half a season with Medway and had my first game for them in December, 2015. was on the diving course. So I was up in Scotland learning how to dive between September and December and literally came back on the Friday and I was playing rugby on the Saturday. And there were Kent trials and the coaches told me you're probably not ready to reply yet. You've only played and it's probably about four matches at the time. So, so I kind of left it there. And then a few weeks later, some of the girls were saying like, there was not enough numbers to Kent training and they was looking for numbers. Do you wanna come? I said, yeah, of course you can. There's only up to road for my house as well. 

So rocked up to Kent training and not that many girls were there. done my thing, you know, carried the ball into contact, through people. And at the end of that session, the Kent coach has said, what you doing for the next three Saturdays? you're in the team after one session. I was like, yes, sick!  

And yeah, towards the end of those, those Kent, well, towards the end of those county games, I went to watch the six nations. Women's six nations. So watching sort of live international rugby for the first time and just said, sitting there with my mum, watching it brand of mine, this would be her first experience of rugby as well, very much, not a rugby family at all. And I just looked at the pitch and I looked at her and I just went, I reckon I could do that.

Said, oh yeah. I said, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll go play for England mum. She went right fine. And like, it's very how she's very nonchalant about it all because she's used to it. She's I say I wanna do something and I go and do it. And I dunno if it helps or hinders me, but she just goes, yeah, right, go on that was the moment I decided I wanted to play rugby for England and then sort of look just looking into the detail of it and what that means. And I had to play premiership rugby club. And then it was about finding the closest club and, and making it work logistically with work and, and being able to get there on time, et cetera, et cetera

That becomes part of the commitment, like having to get on the road as soon as you finish work and you know, maybe getting a sandwich down as, as you're going around the M 25.

So yeah. Turned up to my first session and after it, the coaches went you've not played a lot rugby before. Have you? I said, oh no, about six games. They went, okay. We can tell, but we can tell you, you’re it's strong and powerful and you lifted everyone in the line out no problem. You can catch a ball, you can throw a ball, you know, ‘cause I couldn't pass it. And you know, arguably still can't pass it, but it's the, it's the basic fundamentals of sport. And they said, you're very welcome back. In fact, we'd love to have you back. Uh, we just need to teach you how to play rugby essentially. And you know, to this day, that's what I'm still learning is, is how to, to play rugby.

Sue Anstiss:

And you've become a bit of a poster girl for the sport. So you feature around the club at the Stoop, you were the face of a new Umbro, England kit. And you are part of a group now considering the potential for a women's Lions tour. Does that ever feel odd to you because you came to the sport relatively late in life?

Shaunagh Brown:

No. No. It doesn't feel odd because I'm a very much a person that just go with a flow, like things that come up, all, all the things I'm doing now, I don't plan. Like I didn't plan a little bit. The only bit I planned was playing for England and Harlequins, everything else just sort of comes with it. And I get presented with so much opportunities. It's on me to, to take it and, and, and vow to myself. It's always a opportunity if I can't think of a reason, why not? I will go for it. So it's literally, I go, yeah, why not?

Shaunagh Brown:

 So I, when I look back at and not even look back, like, look at me now and what I'm doing, I'll go, oh, you're doing all right, like girl from Peckham from  a single parent family,  mixed race, female, I think, yeah, you're doing all right, Shaunagh,  like keep going with it

And if people wanna hear me talk, then I'm, I'm happy to, to talk about it. And if people wanna like put me on a stage, put me on a platform again, I I'm happy to be that person there and be, be the voice, be a face. Because even like you say, like my face is all over Twickenham and me and my Afro or, or half Afro, whatever hairstyle I've got at the time. Even if just people see that and think, oh, blimey, there's an Afro in Twickenham,  I didn't realize that people who have Afros can play rugby or whatever it is. It's just that kind of relatability and think, oh, well, if she's welcome here and they're advertising her, maybe I'll have a go. So maybe I I'll try my local rugby club. Yeah. So it's all about that. And realising you can, within reason do what you put your mind to.  There's, there's a whole lot of issues around society and privilege but within reason, it, is about just being visible and realising that, that people can achieve a lot more, so much more than what they do.

Sue Anstiss:

You weren't selected for the autumn internationals last year. And I remember dropping you a direct message to check that all was well and you were so gracious about the situation. Am I okay to read what you sent back to me? 

Shaunagh Brown:

Yeah, ok, 

Sue Anstiss:

You said “tough selection is a good thing for the whole game. And I'm okay with that, that’s sport. And that's the future of sport. No, one's just walking into their sport anymore. The future is coming.” And I think that's an incredible attitude to have of putting the good of the game above your own personal chances of selection. So I'm interested to know how it did feel at the time though, to not be selected when you've been the face of so much for the women's team.

Shaunagh Brown:

Yeah. So it's that separating that on pitch and off pitch stuff and not confusing the two and you know, I would never, ever wanna be selected in a team because my face is everywhere. I would never wanna be picked over somebody because I might be more popular in the media. Like that is not the life I'm about at all. I always want to be picked on my own merit. I never wanna be picked because they want a mixed-race girl on the team. I never wanna be picked because they want someone who speaks loudly about women's sport on the team. Like I never want that. I wanna be picked because my play and ability is far and above anybody else. So not being selected in the Autumns. It is tough. Of course, in that moment I am angry and I just hate everyone. Like what a rubbish decision.

Shaunagh Brown:

And obviously you've got people around you go, ‘that's also rubbish decision’, which doesn't help sometimes. Cause everyone's going, ‘you're better than everyone’ I’m going. ‘Yeah, I'm better than everyone’.  Actually, clearly not!  

Anybody who has succeeded anywhere in life will 100% tell you that, that nobody flies through life being told yes, all the time. And I don't care how much privilege you have and how much money you have. There will be a point in your life when you was told, no, you're not good enough for, for some reason or ever. so yeah, it is part it's part of success. And as part of being the best, you, you have to be, be vulnerable and be rejected. But also it does mean our game is in a good place, cuz like I I'm a good player. I'm a good rugby player. And if I'm like I'm in an England set-up and not making an England rugby team, that means someone else is better than me.

Sue Anstiss:

I've it's been wonderful in the past couple of years to see female athletes being activists for social change. So Simone Biles, Naomi Osaka, Megan Rapino, Serena Williams. and so on. And I saw a post last week where you said ‘my why is encouraging women and girls to know that they are worth more. That's what keeps me going’. How do you feel your words and presence can change things for others?

Shaunagh Brown:

Well, it's when I started to realise that so many other people either don't say it out loud or don't believe it. And like, they'll say you play rugby, but it's not as good as it, like, it's not as good as the men’s game or, and I go, are you being serious? And they'll say with a smile on their face and like, yeah, I'm being serious. And again, it's back to that conversation. I'm a, a paid professional rugby player, but I'm one of only 30 English players in the country.

Everyone else goes to work. And so therefore you're gonna make mistakes and, you know, shift workers who are it's, it's unreal. The, the amount of commitment that our women put into this game, who, who have jobs as well, ‘cause without them, the, the sport doesn't keep going. Um, so it's just that constant. I, and I feel I do have to do it constantly reminding people that men and women, that women are good enough. And what, what we're facing now is not good enough

 It's not about equality. And I, I believe like people talk about equality. It's not, it's not just equality. It's equality of opportunity. And actually, it's about equity.

You can talk about rugby kit and some women will say, well, I wanna wear men's so Shaunagh, you're talking rubbish and I go, no, it's about choice if you want to wear men's, you can wear men's. I wear men's because it's just a lot bigger. And I've got these huge legs that follow me around. So sometimes I wear men's kit, cuz it is it's more comfortable. But it's the choice I would like to be able to choose between wearing women's fit and wearing men's fit why not increase choice.

Sue Anstiss:

You're clearly very vocal and very honest and articulate on many different topics. But are you ever cautioned not to speak out by sponsors or clubs or teams and so on?

Shaunagh Brown:

Mm that's a good question. I'd say short answer is no, but I do. I, I get from other players, like how'd you get away with saying what you do, how'd you get away with saying that? And I go saying what? I'm just talking the truth because this is like, I'm not gonna lie. The, the problem for people who want me to, to be quiet potentially is I'm being truthful and being honestif I'm telling the truth, you can't, you can't keep me quiet. But then it's also that emotional intelligence of learning how to, to, to tell the truth. And it's not about almost like victimizing someone and you know, you talk about racial issues. And I would say using a word coloured. So someone, a, a white person saying, oh, Shauagh like you‘re coloured. Can you show me how to do this or whatever, but using the term colored, especially in that situation, I know that person is not trying to be mean. I know that person is not trying to put me down. I can already tell just from the tone of which they said it, that they just don't know any different. So now I'm, I could, I have an option. I could jump down their throats and be like, how dare you? How dare you use that word colored. You are a racist. Nobody's getting anything out of that. But what I choose to do is go, oh, uh, I don't say colored anymore. I just prefer mixed race. 

Shaunagh Brown:

And that you can say black, you can say brown, but coloured is just a no-. And, and then again, it's how it's received. Some people will go, oh my gosh, I am so, so like, I will never do that again. But equally some people go, oh, well, what's the difference? It's all the same. And then, then we different conversation on our hands. But for me, I've found the approach of a softly softly approach and the education and just helping people and sthat a lot of the time, like the terms we use in the speech. And you know, when, when people will constantly say policeman fireman like work, man, the tax man. It really mean, man. They just mean the person, the job role. They mean police officer. They mean firefighter. They mean the tax office.:

It's just that it's easy to say tax man. It's easy to say milkman. It's easy to say fireman, but just correct it,  go, oh, do you mean firefighter? They go, oh yeah, yeah. Sorry. I do. Or do you mean police officer? Oh yeah. Yeah, I do. But again, equally they go, oh, what's the difference? I go, well, if it doesn't make a difference, call everyone. Policewomen call everyone fire women. And I go, well, I'm not gonna do that. And I go, and again, that's back to Steph Evans's argument with the kit and well, I'm gonna use, use the man as the majority of, but I can't possibly use the women to cover everybody. So yeah, the answer to your question is no, I've never been told to pipe down, but I've like, I, I learn emotional intelligence. I learn the but no, I, um, yeah, get pretty free reign because I'm my own woman, strong, independent woman do what I want.

Sue Anstiss:

I love that. I love that piece on language too, that whole ever evolving language. I was on a session recently and someone asked about cricket and the MCC changing the terms from batsman to batters and I, but I wish I had, well, I will next time that, well, actually let's just call them all batswomen then. How does that feel? That, you know, let's try that route for a couple of Tests and see how that goes. I will use that in future. I guess from a really positive side, we've got TikTok as supporters of the, in Six Nations, this year. So how important do you think social media is in engaging new audiences for women's sport and inspiring young women and, and boys too?

Shaunagh Brown:

I think there's, there's good and bad with social media as is and how, how you consume it and use it has a lot to do with how, how it makes you feel. But ultimately, I think it's a good thing. It it's about the growth. It's how you're going to get to new people, how you're gonna get to new audiences and all about these algorithms that, that get you, they'll get you think, why is that on my page? I only spoke about it yesterday! We need to keep growing. And the way to keep growing is by getting new people. 

Over 50% of the British population is female and rugby needs to grow. So why would you only attack the 49% population? Why would you not want to, as a man, as a woman, as a supporter of rugby, why would you not want more people playing rugby? It's not about necessarily getting just more women. This is about getting more people from different backgrounds, from different perspectives. It's just all about the growth of the sport. And commercially, it just makes sense because nobody wants a old boys club anymore. Like you don't wanna be exclusive. You need more people because more people means more money and from a business side of things, like it just makes sense.

Sue Anstiss:

Social media can be a place that facilitates trolls and, and women's sports seems to trigger lots of those sad keyboard warriors. Um, have you had any abuse online, social media abuse. And, and how do you deal with that? How has that been for you?

Shaunagh Brown:

So I wouldn't say I've suffered with social media abuse as such, like I've seen, seen some of it out there and I, I dunno how, seem to avoid it. but it's learning how to protect yourself and a lot more companies that are taking it on their selves to, to help not only, you know, players of their sport, but employees and, and learning that there are a lot of, um, settings and safety settings now. Uh, and, and we went through, um, some of the stuff on Instagram, you could do, you like, you can, you can number one, turn comments off, you could have it.

Shaunagh Brown:

So hidden words. And if somebody uses a certain word on, on your profile, you can choose to not ever see that comment., if there's a new account, if an account's been made new in the last few weeks, you can choose to not again, not let those people comment on your posts So it's part of it is us learning those safety features to help protect ourselves.

Shaunagh Brown :

But like me, when I, I see sort of these minor, what I literally get minor comments and it's not really anything to write home about. But if I do see them, my responses, well, my first response in my head is I'll think of a reply, but I won't send it because it's, once I realised you interacting with them is making their day. Like they are buzzing no matter what you've said, good or bad, they're the kind of people who don't get any attention anywhere in life. And so this is their only outlet. This is their only way to get people to talk at them because you're not even talking to them. You're not trying to start a conversation, but you're, you're talking at them. And so now they've got someone to reply to. 

And you realize when these people either see the error of their ways and come out publicly and they'll talk about it. And they literally say I was just in a, in a bad, bad place. And I was feeling bad about whatever situation. And so I felt a need to make somebody else feel bad on purpose, cuz I ch ‘casue I hundred percent know that the comments that they're saying on social media, there's not a chance in any world. They'll say that to my face. And if they're not gonna be able to say that to my face, then this is not a conversation. This is you just, you know, just being annoying and, and trying to get some attention that I am not going to give you.

Sue Anstiss:

Brilliant. I love that approach. Um, well world cup takes place in New Zealand in October and it would be your first. So what would it mean to you to be part of that squad

Shaunagh Brown:

Being part of the World Cup squad would be, would be the, what the aim was in the beginning. So earlier I spoke about, I don't necessarily have plans along the way, but I just have these main goals and playing for England, sort of tick. But now the next big plan and main goal is to play in a World Cup. And so I will do whatever it takes to put myself in that team. Um, and that's making the sacrifices is, you know, going through the pain of, of his body and literally this morning, wake up, you think, oh, I can't move my neck again. And just like having to turn and you think, well, I can't drive today, cause I can't turn my head. Like all of those things that come with it, but I, I want to play in a world cup, me, myself, Shaunagh Brown for myself, wants to play in a world cup. So therefore I am gonna make it happen. This means having a bit of a rubbish time maybe for the next few months in terms of like body and space and you know, is it is a different sort of mental attitude to it, but I wanna play in a World Cup. So this is, this is what I have to do to make it happen.

Sue Anstiss:

And finally, you've already done so much a cross your career and there's clearly lots more to come, but what would your ambitions be for life after rugby?

Shaunagh Brown:

Ooh, ambitions for life after rugby. Just, there's no plan. There's honestly no plan. So if anybody out there wants to give me an opportunity to do something, I'm putting my hand up before you've even offered what I would want to do is is the off pitch stuff that I currently do now, but I'd wanna do more of it. So I've given, I've given co-commentary a go, the punditry a go. I care a lot, a lot, a lot about, you know, going out to, to workplaces, to organisations, to clubs, sports clubs, rugby clubs, schools, and just getting people to realize that they can achieve more, men and women, boys and girls. Like you can, you can almost definitely achieve more than what you're doing if you want to what you want to do. So yeah, I just really like that side of it and, and having conversations with people and hearing other people's perspectives then it makes me reflect on myself and it's this constant journey of growth. I really enjoy growing myself as a person. I really enjoy change and I enjoy challenge. And I, I enjoy thinking you know, life is not the same for everybody. And, and the sooner we realize that he better

Sue Anstiss:

Thanks to Shaunagh for taking the time to talk to me today, we wish her well for the Six Nations and for that selection for the World Cup later this year.

Head over to fearlesswomen.co.uk to find out more about all of the incredible guests I've spoken to for the podcast in previous series. 

If rugby is your passion, then look out for my previous guests that include former head of women's rugby at World Rugby, Katie Sadlier, former Scotland international, and Harlequinn’s coach Karen Finlay, former England Captain, and now CFO and COO at the RFU Sue Day and former England and Lions player, male ally Ugo Monye.

As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free network for all women working in sport. 

You can sign up for Changing the Game, our weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport. And there's also more about my new book Game On! The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport. Thanks again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker, who does a great job as our executive producer, along with Rory Auskerry on sound production. 

Finally, a thank you to my brilliant colleague, Kate Hannon, who does so much behind the scenes at Fearless Women.  Do come and say hello on social media where you'll find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook @ SueAnstiss.  The Game Changers, fearless women in sport.