Isa Guha: Building a career in a male dominated sport

Isa Guha was the first woman of South Asian origin to represent England in sport when she made her international cricket debut in 2002, aged 17.

Her career, which spanned a decade, included winning the 2009 Women's World Cup, Women's World T20 and three Ashes Series.

Isa is now firmly established in sports media, having broken many barriers along the way both presenting and commentating for global broadcasters. She’s currently an integral part of the Fox Cricket coverage in Australia and Test Match Special combined with heading up the BBC TV coverage in the UK.

It’s recently been announced that she will also be joining the BBC line up for Wimbledon this summer. 

As the first woman on the Professional Cricketers Association board, Isa has overseen an important time in the transition of the game as women strive for equity in cricket but also as the game aims to tackle racism.

Isa is incredibly open as we discuss what more cricket can do to make the sport inclusive for women of all backgrounds and she shares how she built her broadcasting career. Isa also reflects on Shane Warne’s legacy and the new foundation she is establishing in her mother’s name, Take her lead.

You can order Isa’s mum’s beautiful cookbook - Roma’s Recipes -  here.

Thanks to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Isa Guha: Building a career in a male dominated sport

Sue Anstiss:

Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers, the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport, I'm Sue Anstiss and I'd like to start with a huge thank you to our partners, Sport England, who are supporting The Game Changers, through the National Lottery. I'd been hoping to have today's guest on the podcast since our early series. So it's wonderful. Finally welcome her here today.  In 2002, aged 17 Isa Guha became the first woman of South Asian origin to represent England in sport when she made her international cricket debut.

Her career, which spanned a decade included winning the 2009 ICC women's world cup,  women's world T 20 and three Ashes series, Isa is now firmly established in sports media, having broken many barriers along the way, both presenting and commentating for global broadcasters. 

She's currently an integral part of the Fox cricket coverage in Australia and Test Match Special, combined with heading up the BBC TV coverage in the UK. As the first woman on the Professional Cricketers Association Board, she's overseen an important time in the transition of the game as women strive for equality in cricket, but also as the game aims to tackle racism. 

Sue Anstiss:

So let's get started with the young Isa growing up, not far from me in High Wickham. How much was cricket a part of family life?

Isa Guha:

Sue. first of all, thanks for having me, great to be on this. you've had some amazing guests, so yeah, just a real honor. Yeah. cricket. It was always part of the family, I guess, in the genes.  Mum and dad from India, talked about it at home a lot, my brother seven years older than me, classic story, I would try and chase after the ball in the back garden. We had the perfect back garden. It was long, it was thin, milk crates for wickets and lots of smashed windows. So I think he just saw me as, his bowler in the back garden. it was uphill, so I got used to bowling uphill into the wind he would get me out pretty quickly, so I could bowl for the rest of the evening. So yeah, it was, it was fairly early days for me in terms of the interesting cricket. It wasn't just cricket. I played a few different sports, but I, I guess cricket was always, always there from, from an early age

Sue Anstiss:

And like many of the women I've talked to on the podcast who played team sports, you've started off playing on boys teams. So was there ever any resentment or hostility to you playing as a girl?

Isa Guha:

I think naturally, you know, there are a few raised eyebrows. but for me I was really fortunate at High Wickham, so it was a really nice team. I loved playing with the guys there. Yes, it was intimidating to start as the only girl, but I think it was really important for my development in terms of taking myself out of a comfort zone. I think there was initial reluctance, more so from dad, but I think mom was quite persuasive and then dad kind of came around in the end and he ended up becoming, you know, one of my biggest supporters, he set up a women's section there.  He tried to find a club for me to play for, which was a women's club, so I could progress. But I, I think the biggest thing for me and what I have reflected on in the last two, three years is actually, it wasn't necessarily being the only girl in a, in a boys' team, We had a, a really, diverse group of people. So I was the only girl from, and the only player from an Indian background, but there were British born boys, but also British born Pakistani boys and because mom and dad never saw that as an issue. I don't think anyone else did it just  became natural and normalised. And so that was, I reflect on that now. And I think that was a really significant part of, of my early development, is being in an environment like that where no one really cared. It was more the opposition actually. So <laugh>, you know, you you'd have teams turn up and say, oh, we don't wanna play against a girl or can't believe you've got a girl in his team, but that would just, that would kind of gee me up even more. I used to love being able to bowl boys out and they would actually be quite fearful of that. So, I kind of just preyed on that. <laugh> and I, and I know the guys on my team loved it as well. They, they could see that, you know, boys would get weird around playing a girl. So, yeah, I, I loved it.

Sue Anstiss:

And, and how old were you when you first started playing more senior matches?

Isa Guha:

So I guess that game quite, quite early, so I probably started playing properly when I was eight at the club. And then dad tried to find me a, a women's team to play for. So that would've been around nine, 10. I was, I, I guess, already playing with the senior team when I was, yeah, nine, ten, and then I made my debut for Thames Valley, under 21s at 11 and then, and then Berkshire at 12.

Sue Anstiss:

And how did it feel to play with senior women when you were so young? 

Isa Guha:

Yeah,  I guess again… I remember thinking my first, I think it was the Under 21 match and I turned up, mom and dad were with me. I wasn't wearing thigh pad. I got struck. I was batting 11. I got on, on the thigh, It was seriously painful and yeah, you know, you feel quite anxious, you feel quite intimidated, but I guess we just kept going back and yeah, look there, there were some times when I was a, a youngster where I thought ‘is this for me?’  but, but mainly I, I really just enjoyed playing cricket and, and wanting to get better. 

Sue Anstiss:

And it was just a, a year or so after your, Thames Valley debut, I think that you played in your first test against India and you were the first woman of south Asian heritage to play for England in a team sport. Were you aware of that at the time?

Isa Guha:

I wasn't, no. There was a big deal made of it. So, Rathi Nadalal who was playing at Thames valley at the time, , and I became mates with her, her daughter, she had played for India and, and when I got the call up, she was really proud.  she said that this is a really huge moment and there was some media around it at the time, but for me, it, it didn't really resonate at all. I, I just didn't think about it. Uh, I just thought ‘how amazing I'm getting to play for England with these amazing people’. It was probably more that than anything just that the pride of being able to play for your country, you know, I, I grew up in England and, and, and so it meant so much more, I mean, my first game though was against India!

Isa Guha:

Yeah. so that was quite a special, that was a special occasion. And, you know, as I went through my career, I, I would always love playing India or going to India because obviously it's my roots. So, I ha- I always have special memories of those matches, but I never ever, you know, I would get a lot of questions of, well, who do you support? And I'm and, and do you find it difficult playing for England against India? And, and my, my answer to that question would always be like, I'm very proud of my roots, but, I've grown up in England and I've always wanted to play for England. So, I'll always choose England first over, over India, but that's again on this journey. I've recognized that not everyone who grows up in England supports the country that they live in, that's not just in cricket, that's in, you know, many other sports as well. And that's okay. It's whoever you feel your allegiance is to. I would obviously love for those young players who support India or Pakistan to want to play for England as well though. That is the goal is too, for them to want to be part of the, the pathways and the system to want to go on and play for England.

Sue Anstiss:

And, and talking of the pathways. I guess we’re 20 years on from your kind of first time of playing, but has enough changed in terms of girls from south Asian backgrounds coming through an England cricket team and in that pathway?

Isa Guha:

Well, it, it's a very limited number, so, after me Sonia Odedra and that's it so you start to question, well, actually, well, maybe I was an exception and why was I the exception? What are the barriers? And this is what we're trying to understand. You know, I, it's something I've been very passionate about since I started playing and, and with various initiatives that I've been involved with over the years. but just like in your book, Sue, when you talk about the reasons why someone doesn't take up a sport, we can't look at the superficial reasons, you know, the, the same old reasons that everyone goes back to, which is,  didn't have enough support from parents or parents wanted me to be a doctor.

Yes. That has been a traditional mindset, but it's more than that. It's, it's, it's getting down to, to the detail. I can be very open and say I don't think we talk about menstruation enough in our, in sport. And again, that's something you alluded to in your book, but certainly with south Asians, it, it is a taboo subject I actually started my period pretty early, and it was really difficult trying to navigate that and play sport, especially when you're wearing whites , but it's a something that you feel you can't really talk about. It was something I didn't really talk to my mom about, in terms of wearing tampons and things like that. So, you know, these are, these are the sorts of barriers that I'm talking about. But look, when I look around, I, I see a lot of young south Asian talent.

In fact, there is over, over representation in some places, but it's, it's not connecting up. So why isn't there that translation to county and further?  We are seeing a lot of south Asians, plain county cricket, which is great. we're seeing an emergence in the regional teams but how do they make the, the next step up? Um, and that's, that's actually something that I've been heavily involved in trying to, trying to understand, I think removing those barriers, making it more inclusive, mentorship, I think is really important. And hopefully we'll see, see that flourish going forwards and, you know, with programs like ACE as well, it's, it's really addressing the need to bring people from, different backgrounds through

Sue Anstiss:

When you talk about that,  the change that we've seen in terms of more women, especially at the county level coming through, is that in the recent years, is that the last five, 10 years, or, or has that happened when… how, when has that shift occurred?

Isa Guha:

Yeah, I'd say so, probably the last sort of five, 10 years, I think, you know, growing up, I'd often see women from different backgrounds, but yeah, it was very rare. 

You look at a team like Middlesex at the moment and, and Sunrises, and there's probably four or five girls that are from, an ethically diverse background. So, the interest has always been there. I mean, the passion for cricket has always been there at home. They make up 30% of the playing population in cricket girls at school that I went to, you know, they would talk about playing with their uncles and their brothers in the back garden, but they just never made that step into the system.For whatever reason that was, they didn't feel it was for them. So it's important to change that.

Sue Anstiss:

And you do loads of great work in this area with the likes of Sporting Equals and Cricket United and the British Asian trust. And you're a member of the ECB south Asian strategy panel, but is the governing body, the governing bodies itself, doing enough, do you think in terms of, uh, moving this forward and making that change?

Isa Guha:

Can always do more. And I think the last year has been a really difficult time for people in cricket, you know, shining a spotlight on racism in our game, and it's been, it's been seriously devastating to, to many people. I, I think everyone has felt it, the, the pain and, and the fact that, you know, we, we have to address these issues. We can't, we can't turn away any longer and so with pain, with darkness, there's always light, um, at the end of the tunnel, there's, there's light it to look forward to, to, to bring us out of that. And I think what we need to focus on is, is listening.

I think everyone needs to take a look at themselves as well, um, and how they can be better if you are, if you're not willing to be better, then you're probably not in the right place, but at the same time, I don't vilify those people. I just think they're on a, a journey themselves. I think change is only possible when you have a willingness to learn and understand, and, and unfortunately there are still some people who are quite defensive about the fact that they might be racism in our game.

I think it's important not to get frustrated. You just accept that they're not necessarily ready yet to, to move forwards. Um, and, and you have to understand that it's all a journey, um, and you just hope that in society can, can move forwards together. Um, at some stage, uh, I do think at some point, you know, with corporations, organizations really trying to stamp this out and, and try and create inclusive environments, there will be no choice for those people who continue to be resistant.

Sue Anstiss:

And I, I remember hearing at the time and, and I guess it was just so, so devastating when he wasn't it, the whole of, Azeem Rafiq’s testimony and so on. But I was thinking at the time from a female point of view also, so they talked about the, locker room chat and all, all the rest of it, which was all hideous to hear. And I kept thinking, but, you know, layered on top of that also is misogyny and sexism and all that element too. So I don't know what your thought…  you know, clearly, uh, what happened was terrible, but it's almost like a, a double whammy again, if you are also a female in this sport as well?

Isa Guha:

 I'd say the culture is, It is everything, isn't, it, it it's, it's just, ‘Can you just be a decent person?’ to another fellow human being, basically it's, that's all anyone wants really. To, to drive culture though, to, to drive a better culture, you need leaders within those dressing rooms to be able to speak up, uh, and call things out and say, actually, no, you can't say that, or I don't agree with that, but, but it's the leaders that have to do it because if you're a fringe player and you believe in something, you're not gonna speak up,  because you're worried about your place in the side. So it has to come from the leaders within, in the groups about whether they actually want to live in an environment where people are discriminated against.

Sue Anstiss:

You are also the first woman of  ethnic minority background on the board of the professional cricketers association. So I wonder why was that important to you?

Isa Guha:

That was important because again, it it's that difference in thought and, and from the journey that I've had, the experiences that I've had to be able to offer something different as we moved firstly into the professional era from a female point of view and what I noticed early towards the end of my career, I guess I would get riled up about things that, that not necessarily the other players would, about equity in sport and how we were treated. And I guess I was made to feel like, actually, that's not my role to, to get upset about these things, you know, just, just get on and play and do what you do. And, and don't worry about all that stuff, but actually it did affect me because at times I thought, well, hang on a second, that, that doesn't feel right. You know, we are the most successful team in the history of English cricket. why are we being treated differently to anyone else? and so again, it's, it's been a journey to get to the point that we are at now with the women. And I think, again, it's a culture and a mindset change of,  stop being grateful for everything have a voice. If you, if you see something that you're not happy with, then please speak up. And that's what the PCA is about. It's about having a voice to be able to speak up on behalf of the players, collectively. Look, it is important to be grateful and, and look, it's, it is amazing how far we've come so far, but there are still things that, that need to be implemented to, to really try and achieve equity in sport. And, and the PCA have put together a paper called Fairer Future, um, which they’ve handed  to the ECB  and it outlines steps on the journey to equity. Uh, and that's not just financially. That's just, that's just not feeling like second class citizens. It is provisions, it's maternity support. It's not a flying economy when everyone else is flying business class. It's being able to allow your partners on tour when you're away for such a long period, especially in the last couple of years of COVID where everyone's had to be in bubbles. again, it, it's about trying to push for these things. Obviously there are priorities and it's about working out where you can get to by a certain point.  Targets are really important. That's what I've learned, to have a five year journey of the transition of domestic players being semi-pro to fully professional. So currently the regional teams at the start, only five of the players were fully professional. So wanna get to a point where everyone is professional, and, and it's all, you know, everyone's learning together as well. So it's important to collaborate on these things.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned that extraordinary team that played and won so much, and it does feel a little bit like it's the Australian women now who have that resurgent into that really dominant position is the best in the world. How much is that success in their game down to investment in professional contracts and the support for the team,  is that the piece that you feel makes the biggest difference in terms of performance?

Isa Guha:

I think what we're seeing from Australia at the moment is the investment that has started long before we did, and that's regionally. So their state, state cricket is best in the world in, terms of how they've invested in the women's game. The WBBL came long before the 100 and the regional teams, here in the UK. So with that leads to increased level of competition, more support, more players, being able to train full time and focus on, on their mind, their bodies, their, their skill levels. 

And we are seeing the depth that they have. So there there's no team in the world that has the depth that Australia do. You could replace every single one of their first 11, and they'd still put out a good performance against England. England, I don't think they're far off, actually, in terms of performance, if you were playing your best, England 11 against the best Australia, 11, as we saw in the final, England had an opportunity of winning, you know, they, they were quick out the blocks.

They were going along at a good rate. They just kept losing wickets. So it, it's more just the, the depth. and we are starting to see fruits of the, the investment in domestic game. Now, with the likes of Sophia Dunkley coming through Alice Capsey was a revelation during the hundred. You know, these are names. These are, I mean, Sophia's been around for a few years now, but the new names are the exciting prospect for England cricket. I mean, for years, we hear the same names all the time when we're talking about England, women's cricket, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it means that there's not necessarily a crop of players underneath that are really pushing for places. I am still concerned about the replacement of Anya Shrubsole and Katherine Brunt, two legends you recall them of the game, who, you know, dominating for so long and, and Catherine, to be the spearhead of the attacks since 2006, I mean, that takes some doing as a bowelr. That's pretty incredible with two collapsed discs. So I, I just think, where is that? Where was that talent and that crop of fast bowl is coming through?

Sue Anstiss:

And, and people were surprised when you retired after just a, just a decade, an amazing decade, but a decade at, at 26. So why did you retire then, when you talk about others that, that went on for so long?

Isa Guha:

So it is, it's quite a long answer

Sue Anstiss:

Right

Isa Guha:

But, but, but it, it, I don't regret it actually. I, I, it was hard at the time because I felt like I was letting people down and I felt like I was stepping away from something that I truly loved, but it, but it all kind of came together at the same time. And, and I can say that I left the game in a good space mentally, which, I am really grateful for, because I know a lot of players that, that leave and, and they feel that things are unfinished. And I, I was in a really good space. I, I saw a lot of youngsters coming through, credits and testament to them that they were pushing for places.  I had been on this journey of, of being a pretty average side to become the best in the world. And, and the next kind of challenge then was to make myself a better player  and for us to go on this consistent period of to become a more consistent side and become a side like Australia that had a, a really long period of dominance. And, you know, I, I got to the age of 26, to know what I was doing with my life. I'd started a part-time PhD. but I just felt like there was something missing. And, and I, you know, I didn't earn any money until I was 26, pretty much, until I stepped away from the game. So… and then, and then the media came along. So that, that I was very fortunate that I had something else to go into.

Sue Anstiss:

Would you have carried on playing longer if it had been professional?

Isa Guha:

Probably.

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah,

Isa Guha:

Probably also the ability to have a break and come back. I just didn't think that was an option for me. So I, I think it's a lot better managed these days. And that can definitely enhance longevity.

Sue Anstiss:

It occurred to me that when you won the world cup in 2009, you played in front of a crowd of 2,300 at the North Sydney Ooal and less than you know, a decade later England won the world cup at a packed stadium at Lords, and we've seen a crowd of 86 thousand at Melbourne cricket ground. So did you ever imagine things would change that fast on a, on a positive side?

Isa Guha:

I don't think you ever have a vision of what it could be like, because for me, it's all about the process of, of whatever you're doing, just try and do it to the best of your ability and, and that will lead to progress. Firstly for the girls to go professional. And then, and then that moment at, at the MCG, honestly, Sue, it was just, I just had a smile on my face for like three days consistently, and then COVID happened. <laugh> so, but it was, it was the last major event, I think, in the world before, before we went into lockdown. So it was just, oh, I remember being there with Mel Jones and, and Alex Blackwell, two  Australian cricketers, and, Mel’s a very close friend and, and Alex as well. And we were stood next to each other, watching Katie Perry, open the show and we were so involved in what was going on around us. And, and all we could think about was what is happening?!  You know, and, and thinking about all those that had gone before to get to a point now where we're able to have events like that. I remember we, we just got so lost that we forgot to be on air. So we were supposed to be. We were supposed to be, doing a live broadcast for Fox and the music stopped and we were just looking at each other and then all I heard in my ear was ‘Isa, isa, turn around!”

Sue Anstiss:

I love that.

Isa Guha:

So for about 20 seconds, which feels like a lifetime in, in broadcast yeah, I had my back to the camera, admiring Katie Perry.

Sue Anstiss:

That's fantastic. And I love the story of your rather unconventional start to your career in broadcasting with the IPL so can you tell us a little bit about that, how that came about?

Isa Guha:

Twitter can be useful for some things basically. They had no other way of getting hold of me apparently. and ITV were looking for someone to host the, the show. I didn't realize that they just got in touch saying, can you come in and, and have a chat? So I went in thinking, you know, I'd done a bit of punditry before and I thought, okay, they just want me on the couch as, as a guest and talk about the cricket, no problem. And then Tony Pastor, who was the head of sport there at the time, or looking after the IPL said, no, uh, so Mandira, Bedi, who was due to, to work on this, it was gonna be in two weeks, she's pregnant. So we'd like you to host. And I thought, okay, never done it before bit of a challenge, but let's embrace it. So I jumped into it. I was sat next to Matt Smith on the couch. And just before we went to air he said, don't worry, there's only, you know, a million people watching <laugh>.  I was horrendous, I was so bad. but look, I just embraced the opportunity, embraced the experience and, and in life, I think, you know, you only live at once, so you gotta, you gotta take those opportunities.

Sue Anstiss:

And you certainly have, you’ve kind of progressed incredibly since then. So why do you think you have become an, are so pop with cricket fans around the world?

Isa Guha:

Uh, I dunno, I guess timing is helpful, at that, there weren't a lot of women working on men's cricket but also, I I'd say investment from BBC and sky because they wanted to start introducing women a lot more. For me, it was really important to work in lots of different environments. And there's many different aspects to broadcast as well. Being a presenter, a reporter is very different to being a presenter, being a, a pundit, a commentator, a lead summariser. And I was learning all these things as I went radio TV, and I, I just wanted to become a good all rounder. I wanted to… a bit like in cricket, you make yourself indispensable if you have all the skills. So that's, that was quite big for me. I worked in environments at Sky super professional TV broadcast, to places like Star where that's also very big, but you literally getting your running order like a minute before you go to air. So <laugh>, it's, it's a lot more freestyle and, and actually that was quite good for my development. And yeah, I, I, I think just throwing myself into, to lots of different environments with lots of different people, but, you know, obviously it was quite male dominated there weren't, there weren't a lot of women and that's why it's so nice now to, I, I felt so much pride watching the women's World Cup just gone because there was so many amazing, unique voices from the women's game, from around the world. And, and I just, you could hear it, but there's no turning back now. It's, it's just gonna become normalised. And, and, and that's what I love about it.

Sue Anstiss:

And how do audiences differ across the world in terms of their response to, to female presenters? Is that very different from, you mentioned Star and Fox and BBC and sky.

Isa Guha:

Yeah, I'd say so. I think  in general, there, there is a respect for female presenters, wherever I go now, I think in India, maybe It was a case of who was the last Miss India to, to be able to come in and, and present a broadcast, which, you know, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's, it's just, I think the, the idea of what they wanted in a presenter was very different to say how other broadcasters approached it.  But, but I'd say now, you know, there are so many amazing fear, female presenters, around the world and you kind of become a bit of a, a union. Like it's just nice seeing them on the circuit and, and just seeing them do well. And, uh, I think the guys are, are very accepting of it now, you know, they just understand that, that that's, That's what it is. And, and, and they're very supportive. I was, I was fortunate to, to have support. Um, and, and I'm very thankful for that.

Sue Anstiss:

Um, we did mention Katie Perry and I'm interested in your thoughts on cricket and music and we talk a lot about the need for sports to engage that younger audience and The Hundred did that last year through, working with the BBC and so on. So I just wonder, um, what your thoughts are your married to a musician, your husband's a musician, isn't he? So whether there is more that could be done, do you think to bring that link between cricket and music?

Isa Guha:

Oh, I love, I love the cricket music link. Uh, I loved doing the hundred last year and, and the BBC, we were throwing to BBC introducing and that's right. It just felt, it felt good. And I think every country does it in a different way. And I think it was really important that the UK did it, how the UK should do it. you know, let's not copy the BBL entirely. You know, there is such a rich history of musicians in this country. It, it makes absolute sense. So, and there's a lot of musicians that love cricket as well. Um, there's a lot of, a lot of closet cricket lovers in music. Purely because I think they have time on their hands to, to be able to watch the longer formats. 

But yeah, no, I love the idea of music and create combining

Sue Anstiss:

Brilliant. Uh, you're launching a new charity in your mom's memory this summer. Uh, can you tell us a little bit more about her and the, and the impact she had on your life?

Isa Guha:

Yeah. I think everyone has a woman that they're inspired by and my mom was it for me.  She was just the most incredible person. Um, she was a teacher herself and she took a lot of pride out of, uh, forward- , she used to call it forwarding people. so developing people and she had a, a great impact on disadvantaged, kids in particular, those that really struggled to get out of their own community, gave them confidence to be able to, to move into any environment and, and obviously have the skills and tools to be able to succeed in education as well. So that gave her tremendous pride, but just how she was as a person, she was very inclusive. she learned about lots of different cultures,  just so she could understand. And she approached conversations in exactly the same way with everyone that she met. but for me in particular, she, she was just a huge source of strength. and I would go to her for, for, for any advice that I needed. You know, It was a very difficult time,  when we lost her three years ago, but, I it was again learning experience in, in how to deal with grief. of such magnitude really, and to be able to do something in her honor just gives me tremendous pride to be able to keep that kind of legacy going. So that's kind of the philosophy we are going with and, and that kind of mindset of, of wanting to help forward people, for, for this particular, organization.

Sue Anstiss:

And can you tell me a little bit more about, about plans for it this summer?

Isa Guha:

Yeah, so it's been fairly organic, which, I think has been really important. You don't wanna rush these things and, and actually what I wanted to do was… so we actually put a recipe book together for, for her. 

Sue Anstiss:

I bought it, I bought it. It's beautiful. Really lovely.

Isa Guha:

So we did it cause she'd always done something for everyone else, her whole life. So we, we were like, right, we're gonna put this book together. And then sadly we found out she was, she was ill. And so we, we rushed it through, but we managed to get it to her, prior to her, to her passing. And she was just, so… Again, just really thankful and had so much gratitude for, for us putting it together. But it, it really was because she'd basically cooked from the age of eight years old, um, and such amazing recipes. And I was like, mum, we have to just get this down, like on paper. And, and yeah, so we, we got a friend up to take pictures and everything and put it together. And you know, people kept asking to pay money for the books. And she was like, no, no, no, just give it to charity. So that's where the idea kind of spawned of, okay, well, who do we want to support through, through these books? And on a parallel, I was kind of going into the community, trying to work out what, what cricket needed, what south Asians needed to, progress. And then it kind of all just merged really in terms of forming this foundation in her honor. And the need of, of what I think is important for young cricketers, which is the idea of mentorship. But I think it's important to actually go out there and, and really kind of understand properly first, before it kind of shapes that the work that we are doing. But that was kind of the, the premise of, of the foundation and the idea behind the name Take Her Lead, which is the idea that we all have women in our lives that were inspired by, and mine was my mom, and I want to take her lead.

Sue Anstiss:

Fantastic. Well, we look forward to hearing more about it and I'll share a link to the, the lovely book, in the show notes too. I was really, really moved by some of the interviews you gave, following the loss of your good friend and colleague Shane Warne earlier this year. And I just wonder what you feel his legacy will be for the game moving forwards?

Isa Guha:

I think his legacy is… anything is possible.  When he had the ball in his, his hand. You really did think anything was possible, whether you're watching him on screen or whether you were part of a team with him. And that's what he did to every environment he was part of. He just lifted you up. And I just feel so unbelievably grateful that I had any time with him at all. That's, that's how I look at it.  You know, growing up, watching him on television, watching him in the commentary box and then getting the opportunity to work with him. And then, and then him kind of welcoming me and Rich in and, and being a source of support and, and really kind of giving me the confidence to, to believe in, in myself as a commentator. So while I'd started presenting quite early, I just didn't think that I had it to be a, a decent commentator. I didn't like my voice. I didn't think that I would be as good as some of the other female commentators going round. And I remember that I spent some time in Australia working for a station called Triple M. And again, prior to that, I thought, oh, I'm not sure how I'm gonna go down here. But I was, I was very lucky in that the Australian public really kind of warmed to me. And, uh, on the back of that, I got my opportunity with Fox. And so we were working together a lot more and at Sky, and he would all ask me what I thought of the game. And for Shane Warne to be asking me what I thought was the biggest confidence booster. You know, I've worked with so many male cricketers now, and I'm, I'm really kind of fortunate to have had, um, lots of different pieces of advice from everyone, but when it comes from Warney, it, it means that much more because you know, that if he, if you have his respect, you have the respect of everyone else. And so I changed noticeably after that. I really kind of believed in myself a lot more. And yeah, I'll miss talking cricket with him. 

Sue Anstiss:

And you talk about, I guess, loss and, and dealing with loss in life. So just finally reflecting on, uh, on his life and career, has it made you think more about your own ambitions and goals moving forwards? And I realize the foundation is very much part out of that too.

Isa Guha:

Yeah, I think so. I think life isn't a dress rehearsal. So,  I guess from, from a young age, it was always about experiences and, and being able to experience as much as life has to offer. And we are so lucky to be able to, to live in a world where we can do that you know? There are many others that don't get the opportunity to, to do what we are very privileged to do. So it's about taking, taking those opportunities, finding time to see your friends, travel experience things. And look, I've… I was really fortunate to have been part of that team in 2009 and, and to have gone on this journey in broadcast now. So for me, everything is, is kind of a bonus, that's how I see things anyway. I, I just, I feel very fortunate to, to have the friends and, and the family that I do.

And actually it does inform decisions because you, you go through things and you, and you get treated in a certain way and you go, uh, don't really need this actually. So, so then, so then that kind of informed your decisions about where you want to be and, and how you want to live your life. And giving back is obviously really important. You want to be able to have the opportunity while you've got a voice to be able to create change. And, you know, my mom is an absolute example of that. She was one person, but she had an influence on so many people to be better and to create change. So it's, it's about inspiring and, and trying to encourage people to not maybe get so focused on one thing, but, but really kind of look outside the box and, and enjoy their life. 

Um, and yeah, go grief. I mean, that was, again, it's, it's an experience that I don't think we talk about enough because we're, we're all, grievings something, everyone goes through it. So it's just how you manage that. And I, you know, everyone manages, manages it in a different way. It affects people in a different way, but it's really important to talk about it. I think, um, my approach with mom was

Isa Guha:

I actually wanted to have whole year off, um, but I was encouraged to keep working. And the only way I could get through was actually the 2019 summer. So the, the men's world cup, the ashes, I ended up working quite a lot that summer I was working most days. And the only way to get to get through that was to effectively become two people. So I, I had my kind of work persona. And then when I was at home at night, it would be a very different story. Um, and then at some point you try and get to a point where you you're back to holy yourself and you're managing the fact that you've got that. The one thing I, I learned, cuz I, I would watch a lot of pop, um, videos and listens podcast ask about grief is that you never, that feeling never goes away. You just learn to manage it better. Um, and I think, I think that's what makes you, that's what makes you human it's it's the experiences that you've had to make you who you are today?

Sue Anstiss:

How wonderful to finally talk to Isa. You can understand why she's had such success as a broadcaster with her incredibly open and natural approach. If you're a fan of cricket and please do go back and listen to other guests I've spoken to on the Game Changers podcast, including lights of Claire Connor, Ebony Rainford-Brent and Elly  Oldroyd. You can find out more about all my previous guests at fearlesswomen.co.uk. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website you can find out about the Women's Sport Collective a free network for all women working in sport. You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport. And there's more about my new book Game On, the Unstoppable Rise of Women’s Sport.  

Thanks again to Sport England for backing the game changes to the National Lottery and to Sam Walker, who does a great job as our executive producer, along with Rory Auskerry on sound production. Finally, thanks to my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannan. 

Do come and say hello on social media where you'll find me on Twitter @Sue Anstiss.  

The Game Changers, fearless women in sport.