Lizzie Deignan: Changing the narrative around motherhood and elite sport

Lizzie Deignan is one of the world’s greatest ever female cyclists.

She’s won World, Commonwealth and National titles as a road cyclist and is an Olympic silver medallist.

Lizzie is now also changing the narrative around motherhood and elite sport. Having returned to cycling after the birth of daughter Orla, last October she won the inaugural Paris-Roubaix Femmes after pulling away from the peloton with more than 80km to go in what a spectacular race.

In this fascinating episode we talk about how Lizzie’s team, Trek Segafredo, are supporting her during her latest pregnancy, the importance of the Tour de France Femme this summer for the profile of women’s cycling and what can be done to ensure equal prize money in the future.

Thanks to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

 Lizzie Deignan: Changing the narrative around motherhood and elite sport

Sue Anstiss:

Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are literally knocking down barriers to challenge the status quo for women and girls across society. 

I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners Sport, England who support the Game Changers through the National Lottery. 

My guest today is one of the world's greatest ever female cyclists. Lizzie Deignan has won World, Commonwealth and national titles as a road cyclist and is an Olympic silver medalist. She's now also changing the narrative around motherhood and elite sport. Having returned to cycling after the birth of daughter Orla last October, she won the in Inaugural Paris Roubaix Femme after pulling away from the Peloton with more than 80 K to go in what was a spectacular race. 

So Lizzie, I'd like to start with massive congratulations on the news you shared last month that you are pregnant with your second child, and I loved the beautiful photo, of Orla that you shared when you told her there was a baby in her mommy’s tummy, but I wonder what's the response been like from the cycling community?

Lizzie Diegnan:

The response has been fantastic. It's such a difference to the way that everybody responded when I, when I was that I was pregnant with my daughter Orla, it was quite emotional, really that in three years there's been this huge kind of shift and it was just all positive and it was just really, really nice

Sue Anstiss:

And a really positive reaction from your team at Trek-Segafredo too. So can you tell us a little bit about that?

Lizzie Diegnan:

Yeah, Trek-Segafredo actually signed me, when I was six months pregnant with my daughter Orla, so they decided to set up a women's team and I was without a team at the time that I was pregnant. So they came on board, supported me through my first maternity and come back and then were equally delighted when I told them that actually rather than retiring and stopping my career, I wanted to continue and have another baby. And,  eah, they would delighted.

Sue Anstiss:

It's brilliant. Isn't it? And I dunno about you, but it almost feels a little bit like their support’s a moment to pause and reflect, cause I can't even imagine just a few years ago, a team or a sponsor having supported an athlete through her pregnancy in that way? 

Lizzie Diegnan:

Yeah, absolutely. I think they've, they understand and are very kind of at the forefront of their game in terms of understanding that there's much more to an athlete than just being a competitive person on the bike. Now people are interested in sport for way wider reasons. We have our own social media platforms and all these different ways to kind of promote the sponsor, which you're essentially doing when you're racing and they have a bit of a more open-minded approach to how they can work with me as an athlete when I'm not racing. And also they're just not very shortsighted. I think people, you know, it's as though it's the end of the world, if you're about to have nine months off, but it's just a snapshot and it's the same amount of time that somebody may have if they're injured or just having a bad season. So, you know, I've, I've managed to come back from my first  pregnancy with Orla and show that it's possible to do so I've been just incredibly lucky to work with them.

Sue Anstiss:

Fantastic. And there's so much exciting stuff happening in women's cycling, especially in 2022 isn't there, just enjoy the second Paris Roubaix and the tour de France femme coming up in July. So does it feel a bit odd for you to, to be spectating like us this year?

Lizzie Diegnan:

Um, slightly, but you know, I also really enjoy the break, it's really intense to be a professional athlete and to pile all that pressure on yourself all the time and I'm, I'm okay stepping back and enjoying it. And actually the reason that I am continuing and that I am motivated to, to continue in my career is because there are so many opportunities and it would feel a lot harder if I'd decided to stop and become a full time mom or, or just stop cycling because I thought that it wasn't impossible to back. So the reason I'm continuing is because of those opportunities

Sue Anstiss:

And I spoke to a very lovely Orla Chennaoui for the podcast and, and she talked about how exciting women's cycling has been for years. And I guess how the Tour de France Femme really help the public see that too. How important do you think that will be this summer?

Lizzie Diegnan:

It's the biggest platform that there is in our sport. And you know, if you ask anybody, if they understand what professional cycling is that the Tour de France is what they talk about. You know, we're just so happy now that that step has been taken, that we have the opportunity to showcase our side of the sport and the thing with a stage race like the tour France is you start to see the characters below the helmets and that's where people really engage in sport. So I think that would be our big opportunity.

Sue Anstiss:

And can I take you back to where you began in cycling? So did your mom and dad, did your family ride at all as you were getting started?

Lizzie Diegnan:

We're a very active family. I mean, we've always had bikes in the garage and stuff and bikes on holidays and things, but no, they weren't a competitive racing family. My parents both did running races. but certainly had no idea that you could be a professional cyclist when I was growing up, no.

Sue Anstiss:

And, and how did you get started in discove - I know it's a story you've, you've told many times, but I kinda do love the discovery story of, of your first being spotted by British cycling.

Lizzie Diegnan:

Yeah. It was  a crossroads moment in my life and a really distinctive one. I was in a maths lesson at school and my PE teacher knocked on the door and asked my maths teacher if I was allowed to skip the lesson and come and do a trial on the school field. And I, well obviously wanted to skip maths and basically there was a van full of bikes, a British cycling initiative had decided that they needed more females and more young people involved in cycling. and it was a really kind of basic test around the school field, but they spotted me and my determination. And from there I was given 500 pounds, a coach and a bike. And at the time when I was waitressing <laugh>, it was a lot of money and I thought, okay, well give this go. And it took a little while for the bug to catch. I must be honest. It was quite a strange unfamiliar sport. There's a lot to learn in cycling and it actually, wasn't very cool back back then. So, um, yeah, what, what a weird start! But I, I kind of went through different stages with the national team and eventually realised that I was really good at it.  After just being good at all sport I'd found the sport that was really good at.

Sue Anstiss:

And do you think you would've found it if it hadn't kind of come to find you at school that day?

Lizzie Diegnan:

No chance. No. It was really just a defining moment in my life. I'm incredibly grateful that they chose my school to come and visit.

Sue Anstiss:

That's brilliant. It's really, really good to hear. Isn't it? The, I guess the, the effect of it, not just in finding you early, but finding you at all, and you had quite early access to the velodrome as well as a, a younger cyclist. How did that help your development in the sport?

Lizzie Diegnan:

Yeah, so I was part of the Northwest region. So we are in the region of the Manchester Velodrome, which was definitely very handy. It was a safe place to go and learn to race, learn specific skills. Things as simple as the fact that a track bike doesn't have brakes, so it forces you to, very quickly learn how to handle your bike and I just loved the track and I think a lot of successful road riders have come from a track background because it's, it's a very speed orientated sport. And sometimes if you're a road rider, you miss that kind of finishing speed, which I feel like my background on the track has given me,

Sue Anstiss:

So you talked about access to the Bero, but obviously you eventually chose to focus on road cycling. So why was that?

Lizzie Diegnan:

So in 2011, a year before the London Olympics, the UCI decided to change the track format. So I was a points race rider, which is a bunch race, it’s 80 laps around velodrome and points scored every 10 laps for a sprint, but they changed it to an omnium, which was a mix of timed events and bunch traces. And at the time there was a young lady called Laura Trott <laugh> and she was coming up fast behind me. And she was better than me at those timed events. And it was just a turning point where I decided actually I'd like to try and do the road, I'd always preferred the road and I took the gamble and decided to try and become a on road rider in time for London 2012.

Sue Anstiss:

Which seems to have paid off. Did you ever consider triathlon cause you were a great swimmer and you mentioned your parents were runners and you ran too?

Lizzie Diegnan:

I didn't, no, I never really had an introduction. I did a couple as a kid, you know, locally for fun, but I never really had the opportunity to. I'm not sure that I'd have what it takes to be a triathlete. I don't like getting cold and wet and especially in whatever time they jump in the pool as well!

Sue Anstiss:

I have to ask you what an earth keeps you cycling after some of those big crashes and you really have had some pretty hideous ones in the past. And I'm kinda fascinated as to why that doesn't put you off?

Lizzie Diegnan:

I suppose I've never really analyzed it myself. I don't know. I just have always been told that when you crash, the first thing you need to do is get back on your bike. You don't let fear take hold and, and you get straight back up. It's I've been relatively lucky. Yeah. I've had some bad crashes, but you know, experience tells you that you do heal up and skin… skin scabs over and you do end up being okay again

Sue Anstiss:

The bones heal! I did a few triathlons myself in my forties, but as I got older, I became less confident of the downhills and of taking corners at speed. And I, I did wonder whether there was some kind of subconscious self-preservation going on there. So how have you balanced that? You know, it is a fine balance, isn't it? Between being brave versus being reckless. And I wonder whether that changed at all, when you came back to cycling as a parent or whether that hasn't really been a consideration?

Lizzie Diegnan:

I've always had a pretty good skill level, so it's come quite naturally to me to be able to, to descend well, I've never really had any fear of descending, but I'm certainly not the kind of rider that would attack and try and win a race by going faster than everyone else down hill. I can, I can follow comfortably. I've never been a risk taker and that hasn't changed since I had Orla really I've just stayed the same. And to be honest, when I'm descending in a race, if I start to think about Orla, then the race is already over. So, I don't, I don't really think about Orla when I'm racing. I'm in a totally different mindset.

Sue Anstiss:

You said before you had Ola, but you couldn't imagine combining being a professional athlete and a mom and that motherhood would, would mean the end of your cycling career. So what changed there?

Lizzie Diegnan:

Probably meeting a man that I could see it happening with, probably, yeah, I think being happily married then turning, I think I was 28, 29. I just started to feel the maternal instinct and wanted to start a family. But at the same time recognized that I wasn't done with cycling and it took me by surprise. I never thought that I'd try and combine them. But actually becoming a mother, um, has made me realize that being a professional athlete alongside a mother is actually a really nice combination. I'm away from my daughter three or four hours a day, but the rest of the time I get to spend with her and it's very high quality, you know, lovely time together. So I think with every job, if you continue to work as a mother, there is a compromise I'm, I'm happy with the balance that we have.

Sue Anstiss:

And I love that your husband, Phil has taken a role as a, a home dad to Orla, which allows you to keep pursuing your career. My own husband, Matt actually did the same after the birth of our third daughter. And I'm always really keen to let people know that any of my achievements are very much a team effort. And so Phil was a professional cyclist too. Was that an, a relatively easy choice for your family at that time?

Lizzie Diegnan:

The choice was kind of made for us prior to becoming parents. We'd enivisaged that we'd both carry on, which is laughable now, I mean there are couples that do it and fair play to them, but, yeah, Philip, didn't get a contract the year that Orla was born. So he was kind of… the decision to retire was made for him. And it was a massive transition for him to be a professional cyclist, being a full-time dad. And it was a very quick one, but he's brilliant and it, and he is a brilliant father. And like you say, brilliant husband, and it is about being a team. Um, and without him, it, it wouldn't be possible.

Sue Anstiss:

And I, I spoke to Sarah Storey for the podcast and she said, how wonderful it can be to travel with Barney and the kids, but I'm sure in reality is not quite as romantic as it can seem to have the family on the road with you., and Phil's coaching. Phillip's coaching you too. So how does all that work for you as a family?

Lizzie Diegnan:

So for us, Orla and Phillip tend to stay behind actually, they don't often come to races, particularly as the last few years has been the pandemic. So it's been these kind of bubbles and that sometimes is difficult, but my maximum period away is usually around 10 days. So, I'm often racing on a weekend, fly out on the Friday and I'm home on the Sunday. We just find that it's easier to avoid messing up routine,  routine is key in our household and Orla loves the routine, so we stick to that. Philip coaches, me, like you say, which has been brilliant. I never thought that would work, but actually it just makes sense because he understands, you know, if Orla’s had a bad night, how that affects me the next day, things like that, that a coach at a distance just wouldn't get a grasp of really.

Sue Anstiss:

And there's been some research hasn't there about female athletes coming back stronger after pregnancy. Is that something that you found at all?

Lizzie Diegnan:

I wish I could say yes. I, I mean, I was absolutely shocked by how fast my general fitness came back. Absolutely. But I, I would be lying if I said that last kind of touch of top end speed and strength, That was a slog to get back, but, it certainly didn't detriment the strength I was able to achieve afterwards. And I think my mindset is definitely stronger after Orla.

Sue Anstiss:

I loved your fantastic autobiography Steadfast  in it, you were very open about many of the challenges you faced as a female cyclist in the British cycling system. And one of the key elements was… really resonated with me was the disparity of funding for women, especially when the UK sport funding at the time was based on medal success. And the women were having so much success in winning those medals. And I was shocked at the vast differences in support, for the men's and women's team. And actually, I gasped when I read about your experience at the world championships. I dunno why at the time, I, I wasn't as aware of that. I hadn't seen that. So can you tell us a bit about what happened there?

Lizzie Diegnan:

Yeah, that was in 2015, which somehow is almost 10 years ago. But yeah, I was going into the world championships as the out and out favorite, I’d  had a phenomenal season, and I really felt that that was my opportunity to win the rainbow Jersey, the world title  in cycling. And previously Mark Cavendish was in a very similar position. I think it was 2011, he won his world title and he had a ‘Project Rainbow’  they called it and had an incredible amount of support, planning, preparation, et cetera, as somebody who had a real shot of winning the world title. Well, my experience was absolutely very different. For example, in preparation for the race, we arrived at the venue and we had a camper van, which we were to get ready in for the race and it was locked. And I said, well, where on earth is the key, oh, well it's with your coach who's actually in the car with the junior men's race going around at the moment. And I, at that point I did burst into tears and just thought, you know, I I'd controlled everything. I could, I put myself in the best position. I'd not needed much from British Cycling, but I did need a changing room!  And, you know, after the race, there was massive apologies and acceptance of the fact that, you know, our support on the women's side just wasn’t good enough, but it was a reflection of how it was at the time. And I'm pleased to say it has changed. I don't see that same disparity now, but yeah, it definitely wasn't good enough

Sue Anstiss:

I'm mindful when asking questions like this, that it can be hard for athletes to speak out about the politics around sport, especially when they're in receipt of funds or from a governing body or waiting selection for a national team. So is that how you felt in the past? It feels,  rom the outside as if you have been, comfortable to talk about these things.

Lizzie Diegnan:

Absolutely. I have always spoken my mind and been very comfortable in, in that leadership role. I remember as an under 23, deciding with my teammate, Joanna Roswell at the time that our experiences under 23 athletes in comparison to the men alongside us, just wasn't good enough. And, you know, we were up for selection then, but we demanded a, a meeting with senior management and told them how we felt. So I think that probably comes from my upbringing and, a background of very much equality in my family. I've never felt that I deserve less or should expect less. I've always been taught to expect more. So, in some ways I think that's definitely stood me in good stead in my career. And, you know, since being a road rider, since the women's side has improved on the road, I'm not dependent on any funding. I don't receive any funding and I haven't done for a long time now. So my motivation has always been to get the best rather than kind of treading on any egg shells.

Sue Anstiss:

And women’s cycling wasn't in the Olympics until 1984. And we didn't see gender parity on the track until 2012. And obviously this summer we'll see a proper tour de France femme, which we hope will grow and develop. So why has cycling been so far behind the curve in, in terms of gender equality, especially in comparison to other endurance sports like triathlon or, or running and so on, athletics?

Lizzie Diegnan:

I think probably because of the fact that it's such an old sport and it's steeped in tradition, it's steeped in tradition in European countries, the stronghold of cycling, Belgium, Italy, Spain, where there are still,  still big fights towards equality for women in sport, actually to be a British rider. I can see that my exposure in the media, etc is far greater than my compatriots from European countries. So we're probably still relying on a little bit of catch up from those countries. And also just the fact that the kind of culture and tradition around cycling still holds it back in so many ways, not just female parity, but the things like the way we approach, the way we sell our media rights and stuff. The whole structure of cycling is very old fashioned and controlled essentially by two parties that are not held account to,  by many people and it's taken, I think the last 10 years of social media actually to really push and expose the inequalities, not just female to male, but so many inequalities. So that has been helpful.

Sue Anstiss:

And I talk a lot about prize money, on this podcast, and you've had recent firsthand experience of winning a major prize and then not receiving the same payout as the male winner. I'm thinking of the, inaugural Paris Roubaix femme, that you won last year, October, 2021. And what was the difference there in terms of prize money?

Lizzie Diegnan:

Good question. It was at least 30,000 euros. So I think I, in total, my prize money was about two and a half thousand euros and men's was over 40,000. So it was a lot of money. And the same when I won my world title, I won 2000 euros in the male won 20,000 euros. Wow. And funnily enough in the year after I won my world title, that was rec rectified. And again, now the year after I won Roubaix, that’s been rectified. So it's, I'm always a year before the money comes. So that's fine. I mean, Trek actually did a phenomenal thing, my team, all of last season were equaling the prize money to the missing prize money of the equivalent men's race. And,  they do lots of initiatives like that, which do make a difference

Sue Anstiss:

It's brilliant that they've done that really brilliant. Isn't it? As you say that there they've increased the parity, but it's still not quite the same for this year. Is it in terms of the prize money?  it's getting closer, but not the same. How long do you think it'll be until we do see that true parity in terms of prize money? 

Lizzie Diegnan:

Prize money is a little bit of a kind of contentious issue for me because we're often asked about it because it's such an obvious way to understand this invisible, you know, but actually if an organization is struggling to put on a women's event and what is holding them back in is being able to produce this massive prize purse. Then my take on it is that I would rather have the event, but I think where the stumbling block comes is actually why try and give men, who are earning million Euro contracts, 60,000 prize money and say, ‘oh, we can't provide a women's race because we can't equal 60,000’, just split it down the middle and give us both 30, because none of the athletes on the start line in our sport are doing it for prize money. It's not like tennis. We rely on our contracts at the start of the season and our prize money is totally secondary to that. And not, not usually a huge amount. And I know in men's cycling, it's the same, in comparison to their salaries. It's not something that they're on the start line thinking about. So I don't think it should be an issue and holding back progress of new events being on the calendar

Sue Anstiss:

You've said in the past that you've been a little ambivalent about campaigning for gender equality, cause you want just to be able to get on a ride, your bike. And I am conscious that I'm now talking to you about gender equality. but do you wish that you weren't asked about that and you were able to talk more about your performances and your cycling itself?

Lizzie Diegnan:

Yeah, definitely but I’ve got used to it, I think when you're younger and you are faced with political questions essentially, and you realise that you have to give this really sound bite that, you know, is gonna be misinterpreted or a headline will come from it that you're uncomfortable with. Well actually I've just stopped reading anything that I ever do, or and I just have to accept that I will be misinterpreted and misunderstood and I'd rather try and get a message out there than not. And I think in my position, in the sport I have to, and it has,  I have seen real change because of it. So that's rewarding the fact that there's now a maternity clause in our contracts that there never was before I gave birth, things like that. It makes it worthwhile to have the, the odd troll on Twitter or whatever, you know,

Sue Anstiss:

And, and from a social media point view, I think actually that's been very powerful for you, the ability to talk directly to fans rather than going through the media. I'm thinking.  you were obviously pretty cruelly treated by some of the media in the past, around when you were cleared of the anti-doping violation 2016, but actually your ability to be able to go and talk to the audience, the, the members of the public almost directly, there was, was a powerful opportunity for you to do that.

Lizzie Diegnan:

Yeah, I think so. It means that people are able to express themselves directly, but there's still no substitute from having a discussion around a table about a topic, because I may go into a topic and have a completely set opinion, whereas I'm, you know, I'm open minded to have… see a different side and that's very difficult still on the internet rather than having a proper conversation.

Sue Anstiss:

And we've seen how that the stress of talking to the media post event has had and impacted athletes like Naomi Osaka, do you feel there is too much pressure on athletes to maintain that public profile?

Lizzie Diegnan:

I think it's really, um, it's really tricky to get right. And probably I'm very unusual in the fact that my skin is so thick now because of the experience I had in Rio. It was a very traumatic experience. I, and I learned a lot from it. And I simply, like I say, just don't read anything anymore. I don't care about the opinion of strangers about my personality or my performance. And I, I I'm really good at focusing on what's right for me and what will deliver me the best performance at a certain time. But that doesn't mean that it's not difficult when I'm going into a race as a preparation race where I've decided I'm not there to perform. I'm there to work for my team. It's still hard then to hear people say, well, what's wrong with you? You know, there's this constant explanation of yourself, which is quite difficult. But it is just about putting it into perspective and that's kind of, it's part of the game, I think.  But still, it was pretty impressive to see Naomi, you know, stick up for herself like that and make a statement and, potentially make journalists and media question exactly how far they did, really.

Sue Anstiss:

And what advice would you than to other male and female athletes that are coming through now that perhaps have to deal with that kind of negativity

Lizzie Diegnan:

I think it's about having some really good people around you,  eing open to them in the very start of the season, explaining where you want to perform, where you're not, necessarily going to perform, asking for support, telling people how you feel, But there's, I think,  there's no kind of substitute for experience and just getting used to it. It is just part of the game.

Sue Anstiss:

And, and finally, we're obviously hoping to see you back racing again after your second child, but what are your longer-term ambitions after you retire? Will you stay in the sport in some way?

Lizzie Diegnan:

I think it'd be difficult, not to, I always envisaged that I'd walk away from it, but actually I think that was when I wasn't really enjoying it as much as I am now. My love for the sport has definitely developed further since I've had my daughter and also you realise as you get older that you're, you become an expert in something and I'm an expert essentially in cycling. So it would be a shame to waste those expertise. And also it make… age makes me realize that yes, I am outspoken and there's not that many people who are, you know, lucky enough to feel comfortable doing that. So potentially being the voice for people who aren't, is something that I can do. So I'm not sure, I might not be the UCI president, but, um, we'll see!

Sue Anstiss:

Fascinating to hear Lizzie share her experiences across her career so far, we wish her well for the months ahead and hope to see her back competing again next year. If you'd like to hear more about other women driving change across sport, do visit fearlesswomen.co.uk, where there are details of all of my guests from this and the previous series. You can also listen to all the podcasts on the website and find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a network for all women working in sport. 

You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport. And there's more about my book Game On, the Unstoppable Rise of Women’s Sport. A paperback version is available from June 23rd. 

Thanks again to Sport England for backing The Game Changers through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker, who does a great job as our executive producer, along with Rory Auskerry on sound production. Finally, thank you to my brilliant colleague, Kate Hannan at Fearless Women.

Do come and say hello on social media where you'll find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook @SueAnstiss and if you have a couple of minutes, it would be brilliant if you could rate or review the podcast, as it makes a big difference to help us reach new audiences.

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