The Game Changers

Alice Dearing: Changing the narrative in swimming

July 26, 2022 Sue Anstiss Season 11 Episode 1
The Game Changers
Alice Dearing: Changing the narrative in swimming
Show Notes Transcript

Alice Dearing is one of the world's top marathon swimmers and a true game changer in the sport. In 2021 she became the first black woman to swim for Great Britain at an Olympic Games, representing a huge milestone for diversity in the sport. 

Alice is also co-founder of the Black Swimming Association, an organisation that advocates for water, safety and inclusion for Black and Asian minorities within swimming. 


 Her passion for diversity and inclusion has seen her recognised globally as an advocate for change. 
 Alice talks about her journey as a Black swimmer and how she transitioned into Marathon swimming. We explore the work of the Black Swimming Association and how they are working to overcome some of the societal myths about Black swimmers. 

We hear why Alice thinks it’s important to step forward and change perceptions as a role model for others and her plans for the future… including Paris 2024.

Find out more about the Black Swimming Association here: https://thebsa.co.uk/

Thanks to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Sue Anstiss:

Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers, the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport, who are literally knocking down the barriers to challenge a status quo for women and girls across society. 

I'm Sue Anstiss, and I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners Sport England who support The Game Changers through The National lottery. 

My guest today is Alice Dearing, an Olympian, and one of the world's top marathon swimmers.  In 2021. Alice became the first black woman to swim for Great Britain at an Olympic Games, representing a huge milestone for diversity in the sport. 

Alice is also co-founder of the black swimming association, an organisation that advocates, water, safety and inclusion for black and Asian minorities within swimming. Her passion for diversity and inclusion has seen her recognised globally as an advocate for change. 

Alice, I need to start with an ‘oh my God moment’. When I saw yesterday that you're gonna feature in British Vogue. How exciting was that?

Alice Dearing:

Oh my God. It was so exciting we did the shoot, like the end of March and I've had to sit on it for like, oh my God, that's three months. So I've had to be like, not tell I haven't told anyone. I think I told my boyfriend, I told my mom, but that was basically it. So I kept it like really quiet for a while. And then yesterday I was like, yes, I can put it out there. I can show people. I think the magazines are hopefully arriving either today or tomorrow. So I'll have like the physical print of it and just, it's like a lifelong memory that, a memento. Yeah. It's amazing.

Sue Anstiss:

It's extraordinary. Isn't it? I saw one of the pictures that you shared, it’s just beautiful. What, what a fabulous piece, fabulous.  In 2019, you wrote a really candid piece about what it was like to be a black swimmer. So I just wanted to ask why, why did you decide to do that and why at that time?

Alice Dearing:

Yeah, so this was the first time I'd ever spoken about my experiences in swimming and my journey and kind of framing it around my race this was the first time I, I was kind of like, yeah, I'm a black swimmer, I'm a black woman. This is who I am, but I'm also a swimmer. So, it was an interesting one for me and I first decided to do it because first thing I wanted to get my story out there. And secondly, I wanted my story to be told in my own words first. I wanted to tell it and I needed a way to tell it. And  my friend actually sent me that Galdom were commissioning for pieces and I kind of thought, okay, this is a great opportunity to make a little bit of money and get my story out there.

And if people care, they care, if they don't, they don't, at least I I've done what I think I should do. And yeah, it was received so well. I was genuinely really surprised. And um, yeah, I just, it was just the combination of things. Eventually. I was like, you know, obviously I've been swimming for so long. I started competitive swimming when I was eight or nine. And then I, I wrote this piece in 2019, so I'm just trying to do the math. So I was 22 years old. So it being like 14 years, I'd been swimming and had all these experiences and kind of slowly started to realise like I needed to talk about it. And if I didn't, I would have regret when I retired. I, I wouldn't feel like I'd done myself and the sport, the service, which I could have done it. So I thought, why not now? Just give it a go put yourself out there if no one cares, at least you tried and oh my God, three years later. It's it's been crazy. It's been absolutely crazy, but I'm loving every second.

Sue Anstiss:

Brilliant. That's so good to hear so positive, and as you say that you were able to share your story on, on your terms too. You mentioned starting swimming at the age that you did. So can I take you back to your childhood and how you first started swimming and how, how you found your love of the sport?

Alice Dearing:

I learned to swim when I was about four or five, they got into competitive swimming when I was eight, just turning nine. And the reason I got into it was because my mom just… like me and my brother were going to our swimming lessons, really enjoying them. It was only half an hour, a week. And one week she saw the notice board for Oldbury swimming club, a swimming club, really local to my home where I grew up and she was, she just put me and my brother in sessions there. I remember. So she came home and was like, oh yeah, we're going to a swimming club next week. And I was like, okay, why? And she was like, you're getting bored at home. I’m fed up with it. Let's get you out and do something. And me and my brother absolutely loved it.

We started off with one session a week and then quickly escalated to two. And then three, four, by the time I was nine, I think I was swimming six times a week, which is kind of crazy. Like when I say out loud, like at the time it was just, this is what it's done. This is normal. I say it out loud now. And I'm like, oh my God. I was, I was doing quite a lot from quite young. And then when I was 11, I moved to an elite club. I moved to City of Birmingham where I stayed for a year. And then I got a scholarship at the Royal Wolverhampton school. And I swam there from year eight to 13 and then moved on to Loughborough University for my university education where I did an undergrad in politics and a master's in social media and political communication and all alongside all of that, all of my studies, I was swimming and yeah, from age 11, I was doing seven sessions a week and now I've currently progressed to 10 sessions a week. So it's kind, it's been crazy. Like when I say it all out loud, it sounds absolutely insane. And I don't really know how me and my mom did it. She would wake up at 4.30 in the morning, take me to school, she'd come back home. I would swim, do school, swim again at the end of the day. And then she'd pick me up at like half seven, take me home, eat, sleep, and then do it all again the next day. And we did that for, oh, I can't, again, I can't do the maths, but from year eight to year 13. So I just, yeah, it's mad, but I've loved it.

Sue Anstiss:

And why was it so important to your parents  - as I've got daughters that have swum and I know how hard it is that getting up in the morning and sitting pools side and so on, but your mum was obviously really committed to that for you. Why do you think that she felt that was so important to give up so much herself?

Alice Dearing:

Gosh, I dunno. I think she just really, really loved me and saw my talent and potential and how much I enjoyed swimming. I think that's probably the main thing. Like, so quite often I'd be like, mom, I really don't want to do this anymore. And she'd literally say, okay, just like maybe have the day off, see how you feel tomorrow. And then the next day I'd be like, yeah, mom, no, like, yeah, we're going swimming. We're going swimming. And she'd be like, yeah, of course, because she knew I needed it. She knew without it I'd be quite lost. It was such a big part of my life. And it's just a massive chunk of time, which I couldn't give up. I honestly dunno what I would've done with my time without swimming it's a huge part of who I am and she recognised that very early on and encouraged me to keep going with her. And it was never to the point where it was pushy, she always balanced it so well of, you know, sometimes you do need a bit of a push, but never to the point where I felt like I was doing it for her or for my family in any way, which I think some athletes sometimes have to contend with like family expectations as well as their own. But I always felt it was my expectations, which were the utmost priority, if that makes sense. <laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

And, and did you see other non-white children swimming? Did you have other friends that were swimming with you at the time as you started out?

Alice Dearing:

I did. Yes. So I'm from Birmingham, like Sandwell specifically, um, born in Edgebaston but when I was one years old, moved to Oldbury and like lived there my whole life and it's a really multicultural and diverse area and that is reflected in the swimming clubs in the area. So they're not as diverse as the area if that makes sense, but there is more diversity in them compared to other swimming clubs around the country. So every club I went to. We were never the only family of color in those swimming clubs. And I honestly never really thought about race. I never, it never occurred to me that,  I was like an odd one out in any way.  Every now and again, I'd get some little like wake up calls that there is a wider issue that you are, you are not aware of. But as things as a whole, I had a really positive experience and there was never anything that stopped me from wanting to swim because of my race. Thankfully.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned, you gave me a brief summary of your kind of pathway through to elite swimming, but, but how quickly did that come and, and happen? And were you playing other sports at the time as well too? Was it all about swimming for you?

Alice Dearing:

So it was basically all about swimming for me. I did try dance when I was about maybe five or six. So before I picked up competitive swimming and I must have been so bad at it, I think I was really bad at it. <laugh> I was, I was honestly like we did a dance recital and I was the second last person to walk onto the stage. And so the second most person to walk off the stage. So I was literally right at the back back corner <laugh> um, I was not the star dancer in any way and it's, it's probably fair. You know, I, especially being a swimmer swimmer was just so stiff with their body movements. So I'm not a great dancer now as, as it may happen, but yes, swimming for my whole life has been like the sport for me. And I, I kind of think I would've liked to have tried other things, but I had no idea if I'd be any good at them.

I can't regret the time and energy I've put into swimming because it's given me the most amazing opportunities in life. And I have no idea whether I would've gotten those somewhere else. I like to fantasize that I could have done track <laugh>, but honestly my ankles and my knees aren't built for running either. So I think I definitely found my sport and I was lucky to find it quite early on, if you don't start by 11 or 12 St like there's, there's much less chance of you getting to the Olympics. It's a really tough sport in the sense of there's like fitness needed, but also the technique needs to be learned very early on. So you don't have to worry about it as you grow up. So yeah, it's been, it's been cool, but yeah, swimming is, is my baby <laugh>.

Sue Anstiss:

And when did you make that move to distance swimming?

Alice Dearing:

I've always done the longer events actually. The 400 IM, which I think most people probably argue is the hardest pool event, was the first regional time I made and the 200 fly, which people probably argue is the second hardest event was my first national time. So, it was like very early on. I kind of realised I'm just suited to the endurance events. I don’t know whether just the way I trained personally, whether that something in me just made me suit to that. But I dunno if it's nature versus nurture, like I guess we'll never know. But, when I was about 14, I switched the freestyle and started qualifying for nationals and British championships in the 400 and 800 free and quickly realised I was quite good at the 15 as well. And yeah, just one of those things. I've always just been that way, inclined, blessed, or cursed, you know, you can, you can flip it either way. Most people would say it's a curse, but it's opened doors for me. So I'm happy with it. <laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

And, and what was that first experience like of, of open water, of marathon swimming?

Alice Dearing:

Oh my God. My first experience was a nightmare. So <laugh> honestly is, is the worst probably the worst experience of my life. So the, the way I got into it, I, like I said, I was, I got quite good at the four and the eight when I was 15 slash 16 years old, I did a competition and did some decent times there in those events, off the back of that, they were like, okay, we'll give you a chance to open water. We'll take you to Portugal to do a 10 K, which is a marathon, a marathon swim. And my naive 15 year old self was like, oh, that's a free holiday. This is a free trip. <laugh> like, we'll do a bit of swimming on the side, but it's not that deep. Oh my God, it couldn't have been more wrong. So we got there, the weather was like freak weather. It had been raining and windy all week. The water temperature had dropped down to like 15, 14 degrees and there, this was the time where we didn't wear wetsuits. So, I got in, I did the race, I finished, which was like a huge achievement just to finish cause most of the team dropped out. Like most of the people that they took to it dropped out. But the reason I kept going is because I made a promise to my roommate that we would finish the race. One of our other teammates, Jack, he told us that a lot of people probably wouldn't finish the race. So he just told us, just focus on finishing,  doesn't matter where you place, just finish the race. And that was what just kept going through my mind the whole way around for two hours and 25 minutes, swimming by myself because there would be  people behind me or people far in front and I was literally swimming by myself for like two hours, 10 minutes and was probably with people for about 10 minutes. I was 45 kilograms. So it was extremely skinny, honestly I had nothing on me at all. I dunno how I finished it actually in hindsight, like, went round was absolutely freezing, touched the finish pad, like paddled over to the side and the team leader came over to me and was like, can you get out? and I couldn't do it. And he was like, okay, um, just stay there. And he like hoisted me out of the water and then was like, can you walk?

And I was like, I can't walk <laugh>. So he like carried me. And at this point the wind had really picked up, it been raining the whole race, it was blowing like a gale. And we tried to move into this tent. The tent was literally blowing away as we walked into it. And he was like, okay, it's not safe here. We need to go find somewhere else. And for context, this race was in a rowing lake. So there were these big rowing hangers, I guess, where they keep all the boats. And so we went in there and he sat me down in front of this electric heater, which was put on full blast and then not, not exaggerating. There were about five people sat around this one heater, this tiny little box and we were all trying to warm up and we were all shivering and I just sat there and just thought, I can't even remember what was going through in my mind. I just, I think I was just in shock of what I'd just done for what felt like an age. And then I sat there and I was like, I'm never doing this again. Never <laugh> I was

Sue:

Gonna say, I'm surely that would've taken you…

Alice Dearing:

And then obviously off the back of that, they were like, okay, we wanna take you to European juniors. we promise it'll be warmer. It's in Turkey. And it's only 5k. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. It's a trip to Turkey. It's a free trip to Turkey. Again, like, do you know what my naivety actually paid off that time? Because it was actually so much more pleasant. It was lovely. Although we did swim into a massive, like, I don't know what you call it, a school, a shoal of jellyfish during the training session. And I was screaming. I was properly like terrified, cause we'd swum into so many of them. It was like Finding Nemo. I dunno if anyone remembers that scene in finding Nemo where <laugh> we swam into it. It was honestly like that. And the staff were like, okay, Alice, get out.

And everybody else went on swimming and they just let me get out. And I just dipped. But the next day I went and won the race. 

I was a bit confused by all,  cause I was like, I clearly have some serious issues with open water swimming, but I'm also very good at distance swimming. So we need to get over your apprehension and anxiety around swimming and open water because you are good at long distance and this is how you do long distance swimming. So you gonna have to get over it. And I'm not gonna lie took me a good few years to get over that like a while. But I think I might say I'm over it now. You know, I'm always a little bit apprehensive about getting into open water. I'm gonna be completely honest about it. People will think like, oh my God, you're a pro you can swim anywhere. I'm not that confident about it. So I, the way I get over this is, if I see other people swimming in the water safely, I think if they can do it, I can do it. But if I don't see anyone in the water or something like that, I'm like, hmm. It's probably not for, so, yeah. Sorry. That was really long. But yeah… 

Sue Anstiss:

No, it's really, I was gonna ask you about, jellyfish and being scared of swimming and sharks and all that stuff too. So, that's really interesting that you are so honest about it too. In terms of your day to day training, how much is, is pool based or how much is, how much are you in the open water?

Alice Dearing:

98% of my season is done in the pool and the other 2% is open water. It's probably even less than 2%, but it's open water, but only whenever I go to competitions. I haven't done a training session in UK water, oh my God. I can't remember the last time, it's far too cold in the winter when it does start to warm up, we are, that's when we are competing and that's when we are like gearing up for stuff. And then when it's at its warmest, that's when I'm resting and that's when my season's finished. And then by the time I get back into it and start to think, oh, maybe I should do an open water session in like October,it's too cold for me. So,it's just a bit of, I suppose, a bit of bad luck with the way the swimming season falls and the way British seasons are. It doesn't allow me. Yeah. Cause like I think the warmest they get is probably late August and September, but I'm, that's when I'm out of the water and I'm like, I don't really wanna be swimming <laugh> so <laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

And in some sports we do see certain nationalities that thrive. So is that the case for distance swimming? If you live in a place where the water's warmer, they tend to be the better distance swimmers? 

 

Alice Dearing:

Yeah. So again, quite naive on my behalf. I didn't realize this until literally a few weeks or like two weeks ago, actually I was talking to my friend and I was like, yeah, the Italians are really good at open water swimming. And he was kind of like, yeah, I mean, look at where they have to swim. You know, you've got the Mediterranean Sea it's stunning. Um, the Spanish are quite good as well. The, the Americans are always very good Australians, Dutch are as well, the French, the Germans. And um, whilst like, I suppose French, uh, France and Germany, aren't like Italy in that sense, they do still have like really nice opportunities to do open water swimming. So, um, Germany can get some really nice, nice temperatures in the middle of summer, some really nice lakes that even I've even I've swam in.

Alice Dearing:

And, um, the same with France, I suppose, you know, you've got the French river area, the French Riviera down on south coast. So, yeah, I think there probably is a correlation there and something that I didn't even realise until like two weeks ago. And I've been doing this sport for like nine years now. So honestly, I'm, this is the thing I'm learning something new, like every day with open water swimming. I think that's, what's so great about it cause it's so diverse. There's so many different places you can swim. So, yeah, it is. It's a cool sport and I'm proud to call it like my own. Yeah. <laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

I have done, I've done a 5k before and I've thought about a 10 K challenge. Uh, but for me it's as much about what I do with my mind for that amount of time. And obviously it's much more time than it would be for you doing a 10 K, but, so how do you occupy your head when you are either assuming to compete or, or the, you know, training, the pool training for such distance?

Alice Dearing:

So competing is something that I had to really like develop into because when I first started out with it, I'd be like, okay, it's 10 K. We need to get through this. Doesn't matter where your mind is at it's all about what your body's doing and it's completely the wrong way to approach it. Especially when you're like wanting to compete to an elite level. Your mind has to be switched on constantly. You have to be thinking about your next move. You're moving 5K time. You're moving 8K time. You need to be knowing where the rest of the pack are. Who's around you are they the front runners? Are they the ones who sit at the back? Are you somewhere in the middle?

There's so much to be thinking about. And yeah, when I first started out, I was very much like away with the fairies, just swimming it took me a very long time to train my mind, to stay concentrated because it is so natural for you to just like drift away a little bit, because at some points it does get boring. Like I'm not, I'm not gonna lie. Like it's not always like, especially for the women's race anyway, it's not always go, go go. Sometimes it can be quite slow and quite steady. And that's when it like bunches up quite a lot. And then sometimes it strings out. But if you are not prepared when it strings out to go and you, you miss the boat and said that that's what happened to me in Tokyo. Sadly, I, it wasn't really a lack of concentration. It was just a tactical execution problem. But, um, yeah, in terms of competition, mind needs to be switched on in training. It's less so, but there will be some sessions where it's like, okay, I really need to concentrate. I wanna get my technique. Right. I need to try hard. I need to be in tune with what my body's feeling. Then there is equally some other sessions where it's like eight, eight hundreds, with like 30 seconds rest in between each one and you're there and you're like, okay, I'm gonna be swimming eight lots of 10 minutes basically. And I just need to swim. I just gotta swim. And you know, it's okay if my mind goes a little bit, as long as my technique is alright. And like, I can swim without having to think about my technique thankfully. But yeah, there are some sessions where it's just like, you need to switch off or else you'll get too deep into it. And that's, that's not what you want.

Sue Anstiss:

You’ve mentioned obviously in those big races, it really spreading out in terms of the competitors and yet in those final few meters, sometimes it's really, really close. So how much does drafting play a part for those long events?

Alice Dearing:

Drafting is so, so important. It like it is, it makes the race so much more bearable for me and I'm sure for many other athletes as well, it' so key. I am definitely not the type to time trial a 10 K as in you just go off it and go, go, go for me the part I love about open water is the tactics which get involved with it and knowing what your strengths are. And my personal strength is sitting in, sitting in with the pack, grinding it out, letting somebody else, just drag me along, letting the pack, just drag me through , conserving as much energy as possible. And then when it gets to 8,9 K turning on and going and just giving it all for the last, like 20 to 15 minutes of the race. And, the thing that I always have to bear in mind is I am hurting.

It is so painful. Every fiber of my body wants to stop, wants me to get out, but you have to remind yourself, everybody else is going through the same pain. Everybody else is feeling this. It is not just you, who is, who's like battling through this pain. And I think that's a really big driver for,  pushing yourself through it because you, you've got to tell yourself that you can cope better than other people. And so you hopefully overtake them, so it's quite a lot of psychological talk, a lot of mental talk going on in those last few moments where you're kind of like shouting at yourself and then at the same time in the same breath, calming yourself down to find the balance of dealing with pain, but also giving yourself the best chance of performing well. So, yeah, like drafting absolutely key.

And then when, when you get on someone someone's feet who's really fast and they can just drag you through. It's absolutely amazing. But then sometimes you gotta do the work yourself and you have to be prepared for both. So, t is, it is really interesting. I described it as like a slower and cheaper Formula One and I wish I had the same audience as Formula One. I wish I had the same like impact, <and funding>. Yeah. Oh my God. If only, but one day hopefully people will like, hopefully become more spectator friendly basically, cause it is fantastic. There's so many, so much tactics that goes on the men's race at the moment. I, I think anyway is completely different to the women's race where, the men's is dominated by the fastest pool swimmers in the world and the women's race is dominated by Anna Masakina, who won, the Olympics and they both swim very differently. So it's really interesting like arena of competition at the moment.

Sue Anstiss:

And when will you next swim? So obviously I’ll come on to ask you in moment about Paris, but what, what’s up and coming for you in, in the months and years ahead?

Alice Dearing:

I'm actually, I'm taking a break at the moment. Off the back of everything from Tokyo and just having a really busy season and quite busy life and also the fact that I've been doing, I've been doing this like run of the mill swimming season for 16 years and it served me very, very well. However, I just want to take a step back, take a breath, take a moment and allow myself to reset because my mind is fully dedicated for Paris. I really, really want to go to Paris.

I want to compete, and I really want to improve on how I did in Tokyo. So that's where my mind is fully focused at. And right now, everything else is kind of like, I just need to get through to that point. And me and my coach thought it's best to take a break now, let myself reset, feel my passion burn again for training, even for competition and then get back in, in September slash October and start working through to then. So, and I'm absolutely loving it so far, it's been an amazing few months. Yeah. <laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

I was gonna say that. Is it really lovely not having that regimented schedule after 16 years?

Alice Dearing:

Honestly. Yeah. It's so nice. I was really scared. I'd be quite lost, but I think it's just nice to, if I want to do exercise, I do exercise, if I don't want to do exercise, I don't, I don't. And I think the main thing for me, I absolutely love being able to eat when I want to eat. And there a lot of people out there will be like, well you just eat when you want surely. And it's like I do, but I don't because I obviously have to eat around training. I need to make sure I'm fueled correctly for each training session. And sometimes I'll eat when I don't want to eat or there'll be other times where I kind of like, I want to eat, but I'll just wait a little bit longer. So it fits better with the training session. It's really nice right now just being like, oh yeah, I wanna have breakfast at one o'clock in the afternoon because I didn't feel like eating at nine o'clock. So I'm going to do that. And unless you've been in a super, super, super regimented lifestyle, you probably won't get it. And that's fine though. Like everyone's got their own thing. That's that's just why.

Sue Anstiss:

No, I love that. Is that freedom? Isn't it? Absolutely. If you've lived in that regimented life for so long, um, I'd like to move on if I can, to the incredible impact you're having for black swimming more broadly and you are co-founder of the Black Swimming Association. So can you let us know why you set that up and what your ambitions are for the organisation?

 

Alice Dearing:

We first got together in 2019 as a group of four of us, including myself. We were kind of chatting on WhatsApp and we all knew each other loosely because we'd all heard of each other's projects. Like I put out my piece in Galdom by that point Idicura had made a film called Blacks Can’t Swim. Suran Jones was a BBC journalist at the time and she had done a podcast on black women in swimming and Danielle Obe, was creating her own swimming headwear for, for black people and black women. And we all just got together and was like, we wanna do something about this. We've all got individual pockets of knowledge. We all come from like different perspectives on swimming. Let's give this a go. So in 2020 we went live, we went public and loads of people want, wanted to work with us. We've we found a group of amazing partners at the moment key ones are the RNLI, Speedo, Sport England and Sport Wales. We are doing some amazing research with the RNLI around bone density and physiology. So we're kind of looking to disprove this idea that black people's bones are too dense to float or that black people can't float as well as white people and we're also looking into the cultural, the, yeah, the cultural reasons why people don't swim. So what issues are black and Asian minorities facing when wanting to get in the water or maybe even not wanting to get in the water and what do they feel is preventing them from doing so. And so basically, we're looking for the BSA, the black swimming association to be the bridge between black and Asian communities and the aquatic sector.

We really want to, to bridge that gap and give people the opportunity and the access to be able to swim and to be able to swim well because for quite a while, swimming has been viewed as I, I guess, a sport or something quite privileged, but it is an essential life skill. It should be something that everybody has fair and equal access to, an opportunity to be able to swim if they want to go onto competitive swimming, that's absolutely great. But if not being able to swim 25 meters comfortably, tread water, be comfortable with your face in the water, these are all basic, basic things, which everybody should have access to and hopefully everybody should learn. 

So one thing that I've realized with working with the black student association is the importance of everybody's individual stories and with swimming. So, you know, it's just as important someone going from being a child through the elite levels of swimming, up to making an Olympic final, getting an Olympic medal, that's just as powerful as an adult or a child taking their first steps into the water for the first time to learn to swim 25 meters because they're both individual opportunities and journeys with the water and they can shape each person's life in their own way. And that's, they're just as important. They can inspire people to the same level and everybody should get that chance.

Sue Anstiss:

And can you tell us a little bit about the, Our Swim Story initiative that's been launched by the BSA?

Alice Dearing:

Yes. So the, our swim story is, a large part of the research, which I was referring to where we're trying to understand people's stories behind swimming. You know, everybody has a story about swimming, whether that is, I do swim, I don't swim, I did swim, but I don't do it anymore. We want to hear people's stories from black and Asian communities so we can understand how to, how to approach everybody, what we need to change, what the aquatic sector needs to change in order to get everybody learning, to swim. And yeah, it'd be absolutely amazing if anybody listening wants to take part, wants to tell their story, just search Our Swim Story.But you can access it through the black swimming association website if you want as well. And yeah, it, it is, it is a great piece of research on a really encourage everybody to get behind it. If you can please.

Sue Anstiss:

Thanks. And I'll pop a link in the, in the show notes as well. So people can see that too. I do remember I was at Loughborough too, but I remember at Loughborough in the eighties, and you've mentioned that kinda hearing that concept of the thicker bones and, more likely to sink, but stronger, et cetera. And it feels really uncomfortable talking about those stereotypes now, when you think about that dehumanizing and perpetuating those racial stereotypes through myths like that. Do you still hear that? Is that still very present in terms of the way people talk about, swimming today do you think?

Alice Dearing:

So in terms of elite swimming, I basically haven't heard it. One of my friends did tell me that he was taught in like when he was learning to coach that black people can't float as well. And I was just there, like, that is not okay. We need to change this. And, um, I don't think it's taught anymore, thankfully, but obviously that wasn't that long ago, you know, this was only about five years ago. So, so we're talking like there are many teachers or coaches who potentially might still have that view. I'm not saying that they might use that view in any way, but that knowledge is still out there in society. And yeah, that's why the RNLI research is so important, looking to hopefully disprove that and just shout, shout, shout about it 

But it's frustrating because we've heard stories from swim teachers and swim coaches in the seventies, I think even sixties who were told to encourage black people away from swimming and push them towards athletics. So it's kind of no surprise we're in a place where athletics has so many amazing black superstars and swimming doesn't have as many or swimming, isn't as diverse or inclusive as, athletics. So it it's a frustrating one. 

And honestly, the whole point of me speaking about this is that's hopefully one day it won't be relevant really. Hopefully one day we won't have to have these conversations because it is tough. You know, we are talking about like serious issues and, aquaphobia and trauma and the struggles of black people here. And hopefully one day it'll just be like, oh yeah. Do you remember when, like we used to think black people couldn't swim? Oh, how stupid was that? You know, I really hope that that day comes. I hope it comes soon. <laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

It's all those things around safety and wellbeing, but it's also the joy of swimming, isn't it? And you know that as a swimmer, I've swam my whole life. That that's the thing that people are missing out to. There were some really shocking Sport England, Swim England stats last year I think that showed, was it 80% of black children in England don't swim, but actually only 2% of regular swimmers in the UK are black. And I guess that's the thing, it's just really sad. Isn't it? That people aren't having the opportunity to enjoy swimming too.

Alice Dearing:

Yeah. So 80% of black children and 95% of black adults in England don't swim regularly. And I think what's more terrifying about this stat is we dunno how many can't swim.  It is a tough one because P we want to get people into this, but when you're dealing with stats like that it looks like a mountain. And I suppose it is a mountain, but we’ll change it, we'll change the tide. And, we say, we're gonna change the narrative. We want to change the narrative around how black people are viewed in swimming, both in the media and society and how they view themselves as well. So internally, externally, there's a lot of positive work going on. We have a program called Together We Can, which is a water orientation class, which runs for, I think it's five or six weeks where we get a group of people in.

I think we started off with women. We're now moving to a mixed group and then we'll be doing, we're definitely doing a women's only session for the Asian community at, some  as it's quite soon, actually at one point, but it's running In Hackney at the moment in collaboration with Hackney council. And  it's about getting people in tune with the water, like you were saying, it is you know how it feels because you swim. And I know how it feels. It is an amazing sensation it’s like that feeling of weightlessness and you really in tune with yourself, you’re in tune with your body, it's a place for you to escape and it's about giving people those opportunities to access that feeling. You might be starting out with somebody who is terrified to even have their face in water in the shower. So, you know, getting their face in, blowing bubbles, and then they move to a point where they are able to swim. And honestly, the whole point of the class is not teaching them how to swim. It's getting them comfortable with water and water safety primarily. And then through that, they begin to realise that they can learn to swim. And yeah, it's, it is an amazing, amazing scheme that's going on and we're looking to make it like nationwide hopefully soon.

Sue Anstiss:

Brilliant, brilliant. There are clearly lots of different factors that contribute to why people might take part or not take part in sports, as you mentioned earlier, like cultural or economic and so on, but how important do you think role models are? And I, I just wondered when you look at some of the us role models like Olympic gold medalist, Simone Manuel, in terms of inspiring you as a, a younger person swimming.

Alice Dearing:

So, yeah, it was quite interesting for me. I never really had like a role model who I constantly looked at as like, I want to be like them. I feel like I took aspects from different athletes and, you know, not necessarily white or black, just things that I resonated within, within certain people. I remember thinking about Serena Williams she was on a show called My Wife and Kids. It's a black sit com, set in America and she did a cameo on it. And I remember just being like, oh my God, mom is that Serena Williams? And she was like, yeah, yeah, it is. And I was like, that is so cool. That's a sportswoman I was kind of making a link, like sportswoman show business, like I had no idea the two could link. 

And I think it's little things like that, that, I suppose being a young girl, you see that and you think, oh, wow, that's so cool. Like the opportunities that she's gained through sport. And I never would've thought that I would've thought what I'm doing is possible. You know, I'm in Vogue this month.  I'm sponsored by Nike.  I've worked with so many amazing brands like on campaigns and stuff like that. So, I think it's just, it's, it's so cool. But, um, like I suppose my role model who I've always looked up to is my mom. She's absolutely amazing. She's been busy behind me in the background actually, cause, she's, she's prepping my lunch for me, which is really sweet um, but yeah, she, she's absolutely amazing. She's my rock. She, like I said before, done everything for me to make me the best athlete and the best person that I can be. And I'm just, I'm really grateful that she has been a part of it and beside my side for the whole way. And um, she's such a strong and kind woman. And if I can ever be like her, I'd be very proud. <laugh>.

Sue Anstiss:

And, and how important is it for you to be the first black woman to represent team GB at the Olympics? So you now as a role model?

Alice Dearing:

Um, so I'm really proud of that bit of culture and heritage and breaking that barrier. I'm, I'm really, I'm really proud of it at the same time. I'm kind of like, I wish it didn't have to be a thing, like it would've been really nice if it just didn't matter, like ideal world, it wouldn't matter if you are black gay, whatever, it doesn't matter, but it does. And if by me speaking out and sharing my experiences, encouraging more people to swim, if I can get more people into swimming, just learning that life skill again, forgetting about the whole competitive side, just learning that life skill is so important. And if I can help do that in any way it's worth speaking out about and it's worth, um, kind of taking up that mantle, even though sometimes it's a bit like, oh my God, um, it, there, there can feel like a lot of pressure, but I always see it as positive pressure of people rooting for me and  just wanting to be my, my best self. Um, so yeah, it is cool. It's cool. <laugh>,

Sue Anstiss:

We've been talking quite a lot the last few weeks around women's clothing and the things that stop girls from taking part in sport, in different sports. And I know that there are kind of additional challenges for black women around swimming and water on the hair and chlorine and so on. So how much of that is an issue? Can you explain a bit more for those that might not understand the extra challenges that, that young women might face in the pool?

Alice Dearing:

I was talking about this, this morning actually. Hair is such a big part of black women, our identity, who we are and the chlorine can damage it. And it can just be really difficult to even get your hair in  a state that you can get a cap over it. And especially like children growing up and, you know, adults now, myself, even growing up without a cap, which actually can fit over your hair and having to manipulate it in. Some people have told me that they used to have to grease their hair down with gel. And then when you get out of the water, like that's obviously all gone and then you've got to go to school and like, it, it's all, it's a lot to manage there and like self-esteem as well, confidence like I said, it's a large part of our identity and if it's not how we want, want it to be, then it's frustrating. It's annoying. And it might not be worth going through that effort in the first place. 

Like I said, I think there's a lot of options out there now for women and children with their hair. So I work with a brand called Soul cap who create caps, which are just larger. They're literally just larger to be able to get more hair in. And it's even, it's even relevant for white people. You know, like not all caps have always fit people before. And I don't understand why in the first place brands were only making one size of cap. It actually just doesn't make any sense when you say it out loud. But, um, yeah, here, here we are. So Soul Cap are creating largest swimming caps to be able to, you know, get braids in, get locks in, get Afros in and, you know, give women that opportunity to go to a swimming pool and not have to stress about how they're gonna get their hair in into a cap or not want to go in the first place because there's no equipment available to let them do that. So it is little things like that that can open up doors for so many people.

Sue Anstiss:

And I've seen on, on social media that you were considering learning to teach swimming yourself, I think, is that something that you might do more of or you are exploring?

Alice Dearing:

So, yeah, I actually, I got my level one teaching course, like a couple weeks ago and yeah, I honestly, I always said I would never learn to teach because I was like, I don't think I can do it. Like I just swim. Like I can't, I was like, I’m not going to be able to break down how to swim. Like that's so difficult because I've done it for so long. It's just kind of inherent in me, but I think it's been a really great learning curve for me and a great leveler of being like, okay, let's strip it right back to basics. Let's, let's look at where I came from in the first place. Cause I did have to learn to swim at some point and start to understand that process that, that people go through and especially adults are going through and how to make it easy for them and communicating with them on, on a level, which they'll understand as well as children.

I'll do my level two at some point, but probably not in the next few years cause I'll get back into swimming and that's gonna be so busy. <laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

And just finally, what are your, your kind of long term plans for, do you think about a career beyond swimming?

Alice Dearing:

So, oh my God. Okay. I, I've got quite a few like dream jobs. I'm just gonna read them off. I'm really into e-sports and into gaming. So, I would absolutely love to be like an eSport presenter or a host.  I'm not good enough to be an analyst or a pundit or a caster as they're called. I that's like super in depth knowledge, which I just don't have or would be too scared to try to learn I think. So, host, interviewer, something like that would be cool. Same applies to sport as well. I'd love to like mix between the two. I've got a massive passion for both. So would, would absolutely be amazing to do that. And  in terms of like my degrees, I've got politics and I've got a master's in social media and political communication and I kind of thought they're always my fallback in case  a life in broadcasting or public speaking doesn't work out for whatever reason.

I would love to go into political communication it's quite a big fallback, to be honest, like that's, that's like, it's a dream job, so yeah.

Sue Anstiss:

How wonderful is Alice and all she's doing to drive change in swimming. I've been so lucky to talk to many incredible Olympians for the podcast. Head to fearless women.co.uk, where you can listen to interviews with Kate Richardson-Walsh, Lizzy Deignan, Denise Lewis, Katherine Grainger, Katarina Johnson-Thompson, Jill Scott, and Jess Ennis-Hill. 

The website is also where you can find out about the Women's Sport Collective a network for all women working in sport. You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport. And there's more about my book Game On, the unstoppable rise of women's sport.

Thanks again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers through the National Lottery and to the team at What Goes On mMdia, Sam Walker, our executive producer and Rory Auskerry on sound production. Finally, thank you to my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women. Kate Hannon.

Do come and say hello on social media where you can find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook @SueAnstiss and if you have a moment, it would be great. If you could rate or review the podcast, as it does make a big difference to help us reach new audiences, 

The Game Changers, fearless women in sport.