Rimla Akhtar, Wendy Taylor, Tess Howard & Holly Bradshaw explore the impact of women's sport clothing

This episode was previously released on November 15, 2022.

Rimla Akhtar, Wendy Taylor, Tess Howard and Holly Bradshaw join Sue Anstiss to consider the impact of sports kit for women and girls. 

There's been much talk about women's sports kit recently, from issues around Wimbledon whites, girls forced to wear skorts for PE and women not allowed to wear the hijab to play sport to extremes of female athletes objectified and sexualised with revealing clothing, high cut leotards & bikini bottoms.

This panel of game changers addresses some of the challenges and provides practical recommendations that will enable more choice for more women.

Our four game changing guests were: 

• Rimla Akhtar – former Chair of the Muslim Women’s Sport Foundation and the first Muslim woman to sit on the Football Association Council. Rimla was awarded an OBE for her contribution to equality and diversity in sport
• Wendy Taylor - Lead on girls work at the Youth Sport Trust including the hugely successful ‘Girls Active’ initiative which is delivered in partnership with This Girl Can and Women in Sport
• Tess Howard - a GB Hockey player who’s team won gold at the Commonwealth Games this summer. Tess is a real sports Kit activist, helping to change the guidelines to make sports policy more inclusive
• Holly Bradshaw – an Olympian who’s been very publicly outspoken about the challenges facing female track and field athletes.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Sue Anstiss: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Game Changers podcast, where we hear from the trailblazers in women's sport. I'm your host, sue Anstis, and before I get started, I'd just like to thank Sport England who kindly support the Game Changers through a national lottery award. We've got a slightly different format for this episode of the podcast, as we're talking to a panel of game changers around a specific topic. There's been much talk about women's sports kits recently, from issues around Wimbledon whites girls forced to wear skorts for PE and women not allowed to wear the hijab to play sport through to the extremes of female athletes objectified and sexualised with revealing clothing, high cut leotards and bikini bottoms. I was thrilled to welcome my expert panel for this session, where we explored Sports Kit for Women and Girls addressing sports kit for women and girls, addressing some of the challenges and providing practical recommendations that will enable more choice for more women.

Sue Anstiss: 1:13

My guests for this podcast were rimla atkar, former chair of the muslim women's sports foundation and the first muslim woman to sit on the Football Association's council. Rimla was also awarded an OBE for her contribution to equality and diversity in sport. Wendy Taylor, who leads on girls' work at the Youth Sport Trust, including the hugely successful Girls Active initiative which is delivered in partnership with this Girl Can and Women in Sport Tess Howard, a GB hockey player whose team won gold at the Commonwealth Games this summer. Tess is a real sports kit activist, helping to change the guidelines to make sports policy more inclusive. And Holly Bradshaw, an Olympian who's been very publicly outspoken about the challenges facing female track and field athletes. To kick off our conversation, I asked each of my guests why this subject was one they were so passionate about.

Wendy Taylor: 2:23

Starting with Wendy Taylor. First and foremost I'm a mum of a 12-year-old daughter so I kind of see and feel and kind of a living that experience with her. Secondly, I'm a former PE teacher myself so again, I've been in school and had those direct experiences working with girls and more recently, obviously sort of the last 19 years, worked at New Sport Trust, really looking working hard to look at how we engage girls and maximise their participation and ensure that they have a voice in PE and school sport and kit is one of those issues that could go a long way to addressing some of those challenges that we experience and girls experience.

Sue Anstiss: 2:57

Fabulous. Thank you. Thanks, wendy and Tess, in terms of your involvement, your you know why the fire is burning in you. In terms of this topic area.

Tess Howard : 3:06

I've been fascinated by how barriers are created for girls in sport on the basis of sex, on the basis of religion and gender, and I think if we can create a space where there aren't those barriers to for girls to be able to experience the purpose of sport, then that is the world that I want to live in. That's why I'm so passionate about it. My dissertation was school sports uniforms practical, professional, patriarchal and unfortunately it's the latter that so often comes up and I want to live in a world where they are practical and they encourage confidence and comfort in sport for girls so that they can experience the purpose of sport. Thank, you.

Sue Anstiss: 3:46

Thanks, Tess Holly. In terms of your involvement, I know it's been quite a personal relationship yourself in terms of kit and the response to kit, so can you share some of that with us?

Holly Bradshaw: 3:56

Yeah, so as a young athlete 18, 19 years old I faced a lot of abuse online about the way I looked.

Holly Bradshaw: 4:04

Typically, in athletics you wear crop top with shorts, crop top and knickers and I was very comfortable at that age wearing that. But there's no shine away from. I did have a bit of puppy fat and you know that was OK for me but not for a lot of other people who said I was unattractive, it was unprofessional and really, really, you know, abused me on social media and that's created, I think, probably a lifelong kind of issue for me mentally and it only really has come up recently in the last couple, you know, two, three years, where I like to cover my body up because of the abuse I face. I'm very self-conscious. There's been times in my career over the last couple of years I've, you know, having to go out my way, try and find, try and, you know, know, kick up a fuss to get an outfit that allows me to feel comfortable and I'm able to cover it up. And that's why I'm very passionate about it, because if I'm feeling like this, how many other girls are out there feeling the same thing?

Sue Anstiss: 4:53

thank you, thank you so much for that and I'm sure we'll come on to talk more about kind of specific instances too. And then Rimla, from your perspective and again we've spoken, you were a fabulous guest in a previous episode of the game changes but perhaps share from your perspective why this matters so much yeah, as everyone else has said, this is so personal.

Rimla Ahktar: 5:11

I think, first and foremost, you know, growing up playing sports and I think someone who chose to cover you know, as I hit my teenage years for religious reasons, it was something that I had to navigate you wearing sweat tops and tracksuit bottoms whilst everyone else is in skirts and vests, and it's it's so personal, but I think, throughout my time with the Muslim Women's Sport Foundation, actually really not just focusing on Muslim women, but but the principle of the fact that women should be able to choose what they want to wear when they're playing sports, that principle was something that I've kind of carried with me throughout my time.

Rimla Ahktar: 5:46

I mean, I'm sure we'll touch on this a little bit later, but kind of fighting the hijab bans that sports governing bodies, international federations, have put into place, that have stopped women from participating. That injustice, that sense of injustice that comes with it, is really real and therefore it is a fire that burns within me. It's it's something I'm even right now working on, so it's a shame that. You know, I've been in the kind of sports administration side of things for the last 15 years and we're still dealing with the same issues.

Sue Anstiss: 6:16

Yeah, thank you, and I noticed you said bans there that it's not the one we talk a bit about the football ban but actually it's progressed through and we'll come on to that in a moment and there's so much to go at, but let's initially we can start with to talk about schools, I guess where it all begins in terms of schools and and the kit and clothing that girls are wearing in schools for PE. So I wonder, wendy, can I start with you, because that's very much your specialist subject, isn't it? But are things changing? And I guess I'm also keen to know if girls are given choice. If they had the choice, what do you feel they would wear and what else should we be considering when it comes to clothing for PE?

Wendy Taylor: 6:52

I guess the starting point is, given the the vast number of schools that there are in, in, you know, within the education system, it's a really mixed picture and there certainly is not consistency across the whole of the landscape.

Wendy Taylor: 7:04

What I I hear is, you know regularly, is examples of both extremes. You know, actually, when schools have done that really well, what that looks like. It looks like, you know, girls are at the centre of that decision-making, they're consulted, they're empowered to, you know, to make choices and really have input into what they would like to wear during PE. And that there's an element of because I think that for us all, you know, we could all choose an outfit to wear of an evening and I'm sure we would all choose something different, but ultimately, if we want to maximise participation for all our young people, that really has to be, you know, choice and focused on feeling comfortable, and that's going to really increase engagement, enjoyment, you know, and remove some of those barriers.

Wendy Taylor: 7:47

So you know, we've got examples where, you know schools will have a range of items that could be a sport, it could be leggings, it could be joggers, it could be shorts, and all of those are entirely appropriate for girls to be able to participate fully in the way they want to. I think when we begin to hit challenges and you know, some of that we've absolutely seen on return from COVID when schools have come back, you know, young people come back into schools actually real reluctance from girls to go back into the changing rooms to get change because they feel on show, they feel embarrassed, they're worried about you know a variety of issues, and kit exacerbates those problems. So I think really focusing on young people and their needs and having choices is integral.

Sue Anstiss: 8:31

I think choice is so important in all these areas and giving girls the chance to actively contribute to that decision making. Tess, I guess what are your findings in terms of both the dissertation and the work that you've done since in hockey?

Tess Howard : 8:43

Yeah, my dissertation ended with understanding what girls wanted. I asked over 400 women what would they have wanted at school and it all came down to choice. But everyone is different. But what was really interesting is that it's like realistic choice, because saying that you have both boys shorts and skorts, well, girls aren't going to want to choose the boys shorts because that is not a genuine choice. So I think what we're seeing is that there needs to be a greater spectrum of items on offer, but also from like, from suppliers that will be financially viable.

Tess Howard : 9:19

So often what you get is, in general, school uniform as well, is girls shirts being specially tailor made by a school provider and boys shirts being a fraction of the cost from a wider supplier. So there are all these different layers, but it comes down to realistic choice, and I had a little experiment at Marlowe Hockey Club last year where I coached with the under 12 girls. I said to them our first thing is you can wear whatever you want. You don't have to wear Marlow kit, which is a fitted shirt and a skort. I said you can come in whatever you like.

Tess Howard : 9:54

Some girls were like can I come in my pajamas? I was like do you know what If that makes you play? Well, come in your pajamas. So they came in all different outfits. Outfits, and, to be good, for the first week people were still sort of wearing the normal kit and, as they saw other people break the mold and wear, you know, jazzy shorts or leggings, then more and more started to feel comfortable, to be able to make those decisions for themselves, and what I saw was girls feeling autonomous over their bodies, over how, how they looked, and then it enabled them to feel more confident on the pitch. So that was like a little social experiment that I thought was quite successful in giving agency to the young girls. So when I think of school uniforms in schools now, I think of what is rigorously inclusive, what is going to make those girls feel like they have choice, and that is when you have genuine choice.

Sue Anstiss: 10:48

I love that rigorously inclusive. That'll be a catchphrase we'll be using later. I like that very much, tess. Thank you, and I think that's a challenge, isn't? It is around cost and uniformity and schools wanting that regularity. What have you found, holly, in terms of kind of wider sporting kit for girls, especially at that school age, and the teenagers?

Holly Bradshaw: 11:09

I don't know whether it was to do with social media, but at school, you know, we wore shorts and a t-shirt.

Holly Bradshaw: 11:15

I didn't think too much about it, but for me now there's so many, I see so many people in the gym wearing knee length shorts. They wear leggings, three quarter leggingsquarter leggings, and even myself, if I'm having a self-conscious day and I usually wear baggy shorts I'll put leggings on because I don't want to have my whole leg out, because I'm feeling a bit iffy about my body and I feel like just having, like everyone said, the choices at school will just make people feel comfortable, and I can I can think back to a couple of my friends at school who absolutely hated PE. They did not want to wear shorts, so they would just pretend they've forgotten their kit or whatever not to do it, and that's such a huge barrier that doesn't need to be there to get people active. And I think the more choices we can have and, like you say, girl shorts, not just boy shorts, so they kind of feel like they have autonomy over their body is super important, and you see it at the gym and if we could just spill that over into schools.

Sue Anstiss: 12:10

I think it would make a massive, massive difference. Thank you and Rimla. In terms of schools and British schools at the moment, what's the situation there for girls that may want to remain covered in terms of their religious beliefs?

Rimla Ahktar: 12:21

Yeah, I think it depends. It does vary from school to school, isn't it? Um, as wendy was saying earlier on, and I think those that are kind of that, they recognize they have a majority, particular faith or they have a particular ethnic majority in in their school. They are very eager and keen to try and cater to the needs of those women and girls. And, um, so you do get some places where absolutely you know the kit is, you know, colors wise, or a general sense of the principles of what you need to be wearing. That might be dictated, but actually what it physically looks like, that isn't dictated. You know, there's a, there's a guideline in terms of if you choose to cover, then then these are the options that you have and I think you can still have that uniformity. You just have it in in a slightly different way and it's possible.

Rimla Ahktar: 13:06

That's what it shows and I think just outside of the school space it's the same with sports and I think the point that Tess was making around the girls, seeing other girls start to wear clothes that are different, that are, you know, reflective of themselves, and that encouraging them to also take that step forward is really important. So we've seen as more and more women from different backgrounds are going into different sports and showing, for example, wearing the hijab or covering, or wearing shorts instead of a skirt or wherever it might be. That's encouraging more girls to also say this is a sport for me, this is something I can do and it's so. So it's the same for the girls that are at school, and actually the schools should learn from the sports being played at the elite level in terms of what's possible there, and similarly for other women and girls to come into the elite sports space, it's just as important.

Sue Anstiss: 13:57

Thank you, imran. I do feel, wendy. I feel like it's a long time we've been having this conversation. Some of us have been around a very long time today, but in terms of some of the nike research, it might, it must be over a decade, 15 years ago of of knowing that girls want to wear something different in sport. So what is it that prevents that? Is it the? Is it the money? That it's too expensive to offer different options? Is it the need to have girls conform, because that's what schools do in terms of uniform policy and the color of your hair? And what do you think is the biggest barrier that stops it being something that it seems so obvious that we know it could.

Wendy Taylor: 14:28

It should be available you know I think for some schools there just doesn't seem to be that issue. You know. So remember just talking about hijabs, and you know there's a school in Manchester recently we were saying that actually they've supported the school by buying a big stock of hijabs and then the girls are buying them back at cost, so they're covering costs, but it's really reducing that barrier. It's made a massive impact in terms of how girls feel coming to PE. Schools are, I guess, trying to walk that line between managing cost of living, increased prices.

Wendy Taylor: 15:11

There's also guidance from DfE now that's, you know, recently been introduced that sets out the expectations around.

Wendy Taylor: 15:13

You know uniform, but actually that it shouldn't be particular brands, you know so it doesn't kind of further deter students and actually there is a bit more flexibility. But you know, from our perspective, you know that when we speak to schools and they certainly overwhelmingly see the kind of the views of girls, that's something that then you know, once they open that conversation, they then are in a position where they want to work with the girls and actually you know hearing their voices and acting upon that to work with them. But, as Tess has shared, you know some of the practicalities around brands or, you know, sort of making it financially viable. I guess to offer a range is a challenge but I think it's just, you know, for us our responsibility to kind of keep moving that conversation forward, keep raising that and around the potential of the impact that it will have on their subject and engagement of their learners. And you know the lifelong benefits that hopefully we all want to see for girls.

Sue Anstiss: 16:01

Tess, could you go ahead there?

Tess Howard : 16:06

Oh, sorry, I just wanted to add. I think a lot of the issue in private schools is around tradition. It's quite funny because when I was doing my dissertation I was just like so angry at so many different stages. But the main stage was when I read the school guidance for uniforms, which says schools must not discriminate based on sex, race, religion, gender, as per the UK Equalities Act 2010. Directly beneath it says schools can decide if girls can wear trousers or not. And that was just like sorry, is that contradiction? Or is that contradiction?

Tess Howard : 16:35

There is still this pervasive narrative within schools that is tradition is fine and so it doesn't matter what really the impact of that is. So my school I've been working with I went to private school in Cambridge and they've just introduced girls shorts into their curriculum and that is changing a traditional school's viewpoint. But hopefully what will happen is that as that school plays against other schools, they will see that it's actually not that big of a deal when a girl wears shorts. They will see that it's actually not that big of a deal when a girl wears shorts. Adjacent to that is how policies can support.

Tess Howard : 17:13

So what we've just done in England hockey this year is change the legislation so that it doesn't matter what girl or boy wears, the whole team doesn't have to wear the same thing. So that is a huge change. So hopefully I'll be one of the first Premier League hockey players to wear shorts though the shorts have not been made yet, so at least the policy allows it to now but that means that there is genuine choice, and that would come back to genuine choices when you can wear whatever in your team and still be fine. So I just wanted to add that to Wendy.

Sue Anstiss: 17:38

Absolutely. Is that at all levels? Do we see that internationally in terms of that choice?

Tess Howard : 17:43

The conversations are happening now with special sports, who responded really well to our asking. So myself and Anna Tobin, part of the England hockey team, went to Adidas and said first of all, we need a better tank tops because they were called compression tank tops. That's the most enjoyable thing to wear compression tank top. So we've changed our tops and we're on a crusade to go and try and change the sport rules. So watch this space, I guess.

Sue Anstiss: 18:13

Fascinating you heard it here first Fascinating. Thank you, tess, for that. I'd like to move on, if I can, to talk a little bit about white clothing in sport, and again, it's something that I do feel in the last few months last year almost it's been talked about more than perhaps it has in the past. And again, coming back to that taboo of not talking about the one thing that you know affects almost half the population, but periods, menstruation uh, we don't discuss it.

Sue Anstiss: 18:36

But there was much more talk around wimbledon this year in terms of the women playing in whites and I was interested in watching the rugby world cup out in new zealand I wasn't in new zealand but watching on television weekend and that so many of the home nations so the Scottish and the English team were playing in white shorts. So those rugby girls playing in white shorts at a national level and how that then impacts girls playing in team sports in white shorts. So I'm just wondering in terms of your thoughts on how much of an issue you feel that is for girls. I don't know who would like to take that one first, but just kind of interested to have your thoughts on I feel it's an issue. A mother of three daughters, but how much of an issue you feel that is in terms of another barrier to girls taking part in sport. Wendy, did you want to jump in there?

Wendy Taylor: 19:18

You waved your hand, that's okay, I mean, I guess kind of our ongoing research that we do each year annually through Girls Active. So just looking at the stats from the past few years in terms of girls' participation and the barriers they tell us, so periods has gone from being the sort of third barrier to the biggest barrier to their participation. So of the 6,000 plus girls that we surveyed this last academic year, 39% of them told us that you know when they have their period that stops them participating. So we know how much of an issue that that is for girls in the PE space. I think if you then overlay that with having to wear a kit that you feel on show uncomfortable, you know among the top concerns were concerns about leaking, having low self-confidence, self-consciousness in the changing rooms and and the worry that others will know when they're on their period.

Sue Anstiss: 20:09

So it's a huge issue and why has that gone up, do you think? Why has it gone from third to the most prevalent?

Wendy Taylor: 20:16

I mean, I think I think there's a there's that increasing awareness of, you know, feeling self-conscious in your body among teens. I think probably covid hasn't helped um that situation as well. And you know general happiness around how girls feel in, you know, with the way that their body looks has also kind of, you know, sort of declined to only 33% of girls told us that they're happy with the way their body looks. That's 67%. That aren't that's massive.

Wendy Taylor: 20:42

And you know kit is one of those one aspect that can really make that difference. And you know, when we one of those one aspects that can really make that difference. And you know, when we ask girls what is the top thing that actually schools could do to help make a difference better options for PE kit was the number one thing. It does tell us we've still got a long way to go. So whilst I'm excited because I can hear, you know, lots of positive change from schools and the way that they're working with girls through that, we've got a long way to go into in terms of getting that consistency across schools and in terms of whites, tess, I don't know was that, was that something that was flagged at all, or is that different in terms of the research that you've done, or it was a huge part of it.

Tess Howard : 21:19

It was huge part of it. Yeah, one part of the research was around what made girls drop out of sport and, as Wendy said, whites is a huge issue. We actually had an internal team survey sent out last year before the Euros GB hockey team survey that said would you like to wear a white skort at the Euros? We chose red and blue skorts, which was a really good show of what democracy can do.

Sue Anstiss: 21:45

I'm half keeping an eye on questions in my q a, if I can. But one interesting point there is who makes a decision in schools about what's worn? Is that completely down to school or they have their autonomy to choose what goes with p, or is that? Yeah, I think um, from.

Wendy Taylor: 21:59

You know, certainly in terms of dfe guidance, schools don't have to have a uniform, you know, a school uniform they don't have to have a PE kit. However, it is definitely strongly advocated in terms of the DfE guidance that I was reading. So you know, and I think there is also a lot that schools want to do by having a uniform in terms of creating the sense of belonging, having a school ethos, you know, to also reduce some of those experiences that maybe single out individuals. So actually having that sense of community is important and obviously, therefore, pe kit is naturally an extension of that. But you know governors and school leaders, along with you know, heads of department, I guess, would have that ultimate say in terms of who makes that decision. But you know, equally governors, parents, have a voice within that, as do young people, hopefully increasingly from our perspective, Excellent, yes indeed.

Sue Anstiss: 22:51

And another comment made in terms of athletes as activists themselves and showing the way, and I'm always conscious that some athletes just want to be brilliant athletes. We don't all need to inspire the next generation. It's fabulous that female athletes do, but they should also be able to just be fabulous athletes. Female athletes do, but they should also be able to just be fabulous athletes. But, holly, I wonder from your perspective? Clearly you have been very vocal and outspoken around issues around kids. It's obviously got easier because you're older and I guess because you're an experienced athlete not older, you're an experienced athlete but also that you're in a sport where there isn't selection. So you're in a sport where you jump really high and therefore you know you've got your qualification, haven't you, rather than being? We talked a little bit earlier around some of the girls in some of the team sports or rugby or football, where they might not want to say I'm not comfortable in white shorts, because it might impact how people feel towards them too.

Holly Bradshaw: 23:39

Yeah, definitely, and I think there is still that in athletics, If you look at the like our WCP selection it is, there isn't just a criteria of if you jump this you get on. That very much is the case for the Olympics and the world and whatever. But in in many scenarios there might be four or five athletes that can only go down to three spots. So I definitely feel like a lot of athletes are scared to talk out or say their own opinions, not only through the selection but also I don't know whether I'm sure it's like this in a lot of sports, but as soon as the media, you know, cotton onto anything, um, these really negative, bad headlines come out. And I've spoken to a lot of my friends in the sport and they're almost like at their wits end with it and they're like I'm just not going to say anything because they're all going to take it out of context and I'm going to become the bad guy.

Holly Bradshaw: 24:26

And it's definitely happened to me. When I spoke out originally about the kit, there was quite a few negative headlines that I twisted my words and that's definitely not the angle that I was coming from. So I definitely feel like there is a barrier, but for me, I've kind of achieved everything I would have ever dreamt of in this sport. So now I kind of feel like I'm the flag bearer for raising these issues and I'm going to talk out and and share my opinions because I really, really want to help others and I I just really don't want to see young athletes go through what I did and drop out of the sport, because it's way more likely these days with you know the negativity around social media, so I just feel very passionate about that.

Sue Anstiss: 25:06

Thank you, and and I know, reminald, when you opened there you were talking about choice. That, ultimately, that's the thing, isn't it? I think I remember seeing some of the a little bit of the backlash you got Holly and I felt a bit guilty because that was our conversation in the Telegraph, wasn't it?

Rimla Ahktar: 25:19

But some of that negativity but ultimately it's great that we are. But I find it incredible that we are because I mean, even Wendy's talked about there in terms of the guidelines that are there. They're guidelines, right. They're not rules that you must have this and you must have that, and it's the same, really, for international federations that dictate the rules.

Rimla Ahktar: 25:45

You kind of in the elite side of things Tess talks about tradition, we're talking about historic stuff that's been there and you know, it's that sense that I've always had in the sort of sports industry in particular where you've got people just saying you know you'll ask a question about anything, whether it's kids or something else, oh, but we've always done it this way and kind of go, well, well, why, why? What is the reason for this? Is there a legitimate reason for us doing it this way? Is there a legitimate reason for us having this particular kit? Um, and if you had a blank sheet of paper, is this what you'd do if you knew no other way? Is this what you would do? Um, and I don't, I just don't think we would, whether it's to do with whites. You know, you mentioned Maggie, for example, coming into Lewis and kind of one of the first things she did was to say well, we're renewing the kit, get rid of the white shorts. It's as simple as that.

Rimla Ahktar: 26:38

The only areas that need to be considered are fairness and safety, really from a sporting perspective, and I think about swimming, for example. So so part of my work with kind of kit has been around burkinis and obviously I forget which games it was, but there was I think it was the Sydney ones, maybe 2000, 2004, something like that where you had swimmers wearing full body streamlined kit and that was giving them competitive advantage, right. So that's where Fina came in and said right, we're going to limit how much of your body you can cover. So I get that from a competitiveness perspective and a fairness perspective, but the broccini is not going to give you a competitive advantage and it's going to drag, if anything. So you know there are ways to come around this. So one of the things that I worked on with Swim England, as they're now known um, was amateur swimming competitions and allowing the burkini into there, because we had, at the Muslim Women's Sport Foundation, we had women and their girls and their parents coming to us and saying I would love to compete, I would love to go on that pathway of competition, but I can't, because you know, the person that's laying down the rules is telling me I can't. So we had, we changed that.

Rimla Ahktar: 27:51

But actually trying to get that to FINA level is even more. It's just difficult because people don't want to to even go there to consider it because because of their own kind of preconceptions and their historic kind of way of looking at things and this is where I think the manufacturers of kits come in and they're so important. So with FINA, can you imagine if Speedo and other kind of Nike and others come forward and say, well, actually we've done some R&D, we found something that covers someone's body if they choose to cover, but doesn't give them competitive advantage over what you're saying is allowed? If that were possible, then why would FINA say no? And the same with Nike and the Euros this summer.

Rimla Ahktar: 28:36

You know the white shorts were already there. Nike had decided that the white shorts were what the women's team were going to wear and the players like Beth Mead and others were saying, well, actually we don't want to wear these, but we're going to have to wait now until the next set. And there they are for this tournament that's going to go across the world. They've won the tournament and they're they're not feeling comfortable within themselves because they're worried about wearing white shorts. It just it isn't right. We shouldn't have to talk about these things. We should just be acting it's so true, isn't?

Sue Anstiss: 29:05

there's a couple of questions coming in about whether it comes from the top or whether it is about people driving change from the bottom, and I think it's interesting. I had a fantastic email from a woman who was a chair of a rugby club local rugby club and was trying to get the shorts changed. The girls didn't want to play in white shorts and someone on the council of her club was saying well, the England, you know, the Red Roses play in white shorts. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough. So that was like the argument used against her. Her it's like if it's good enough for the national team, it's good enough for our girls, and I'm really pleased and proud of how hard she worked to change it and she did change it in the end.

Sue Anstiss: 29:36

So that's such a key point, isn't it? When we then see those top international teams playing in kit, it's hard then for grassroots sports to to not feel they have to emulate and follow. That, too is a lovely comment from Keith Lewis in the Q&A too, which is I just want to follow up with another point about rugby, about how good and inclusive rugby has been in terms of allowing the hijab and women to play and people to play in all kinds of kits. So what do you think in terms of the FIFA ban on the hijab, as was, and now in other sports too? Where's the difference? Why is it okay in rugby, but it's not okay? Is there still a ban in basketball there? Where's the difference? Why is it okay in rugby?

Rimla Ahktar: 30:14

but it's not okay. Is there still a ban in basketball? There certainly was, wasn't there, there was. So fifa were the first ones to outright ban the hijab and anyone who just had gear in in sport. But obviously the hijab took sort of the headlines, as it were, because it had such an immediate impact on on millions of girls across the world. But as soon as fifa we managed to overturn the ban there and all that hard work over seven years to to get that overturned, fiba in their intelligence, all their intelligence, decided to to initiate a ban in basketball and actually devastated at least two women that I know that wanted to go professional and were good enough to go professional.

Rimla Ahktar: 30:48

Absolutely when FIBA put the ban in place. That's where I kind of got this sense of goodness sake, we're gonna have to go through this again, this whole kind of challenging the ban, and we did. We did overturn it again, largely due to Bilkis Abdul Qadir, who's this amazing basketballer, like I say, from America who wants to go professional. But there are so many other sports. There are so many other sports. I mean it's great, keith, that we've got the hijab in rugby. That's allowed and specifically mentioned I think I'm guessing here the fact that someone like Zainab, who plays rugby union, is in the sport, can advocate, for that helps along the way.

Rimla Ahktar: 31:25

What I would like is for the rules to just not be restricted so that when, if and when somebody from from a different background or a girl that chooses to to dress in a different way wants to enter a sport, she has the opportunity, she doesn't immediately come up with a barrier.

Rimla Ahktar: 31:42

And I guess, from a religious headgiver and the hijab band's perspective, one of the things I'm currently trying to work on in my so-called spare time is really around working proactively with sports to look at their kids and say how can you be more inclusive here, and specifically around the hijab, but just generally as well, how can we make sure that no other sport puts a ban in place, whether it's the hijab or the burkini, whatever it might be that stops women from every background taking part? And, um, I need some legal support with that, someone that understands all this stuff. So if anyone wants to help out, please let me know. But that's that's what needs to be done in terms of action. We need to change the rules at the international federation level, because that is what triples down right, you know, right down to club level what you're doing is fantastic, rimna.

Sue Anstiss: 32:32

So, yeah, power to you and we'll. We'll spread the word for, for more support to you there, and we we know historically that women's sport's always been considered as more acceptable, isn't it, if we're dressing femininely what we traditionally might have considered femininely, and wearing skirts and skorts and so on. So, tes is fantastic to hear about the work you're you're doing in hockey. What's general opinion in terms of that of playing in dresses, and the same for netball there's such a an interesting part.

Tess Howard : 32:58

It's where my whole interest came from was why do we still wear scores and why is that the legacy? And as soon as you understand why, you're immediately put off by, um, what the reasons are. Acceptability in sport, you said, for women, has come from femininity, and you have to understand where femininity comes from. It's docility, it's submissiveness, it's to look a certain way, it's around physique, it's around appearance, behavior. So feminine itself, you know, has so much baggage to it that it creates almost a paradox when you put it together with sport, which is traditionally the masculine. But then again, if you understand what masculine traditionally means, it means strong, powerful, dominant, aggressive, dare I say. And so when you have these two conflicting forces, that makes it very difficult for a woman to exist in this space, and that's called the athletic feminine identity paradox. And that is why there are so many tensions in sports, conceived of as women invading men's sports, whereas hockey and netball have been kind of, you know, feminized by the, the skirt or the dress. So so my big interest is okay, now we're in the 21st century, do we still need to feminize sports for us to be able to play them? And I ask these questions to my teammates. I say, why do we still wear skorts? And they say, well, we look, we just look nice, it's more professional, it's like I'm I. Do you really think that? Or is that your social and internalization of um culture? And I think it is is the latter, because no one grows up thinking it's a certain way unless you're told it's a certain way. That's socialization. So what I've been trying to understand is with the is it practical, professional or patriarchal is where do our beliefs for the sport come from? And that's directly linked to what it means to be a certain gender and that, in the academic term, is called cultural intelligibility.

Tess Howard : 35:04

Can I understand that you are a female? Can I understand that you're a female playing sport and that is okay? So that's sort of the logic you can talk about the hyper-feminization and the objectification of women. That is to overemphasize, hyper-feminize a woman so that they are acceptable in that sport space. So I think that one day we'll get to a stage where you don't have to be overly feminized to play, to be accepted in sport. And that's where I think uniform comes in, because uniform itself let's take the skirt, for example, or the dress it itself is the paradox. It is saying that you can only play the sport as a woman if you wear this, because it says that you're a woman so that you can play sport. So it's the complete circle paradox that's going on. So, to sum up, if we do change policy and we do change practice, I think you can see some of these dominant narratives start to change. I could talk to you forever.

Sue Anstiss: 35:56

Tess, a whole new chapter in my book there on that topic too.

Sue Anstiss: 35:59

But it is fascinating, isn't it? When you hear it, it kind of explained in that way the the historical impact that we still see today for those things like we. We worked a while ago with Harthor Quinn's rugby actually, and we're going to do an April Fool which was around the game changes event that they had that we were going to design a skirt for them to play rugby in a skirt. We'd even had it mocked up with all the the panels in the different colors to say we wanted to feminize rugby, you know, attract more women to it, as hockey and netball had to play in a skirt and obviously it was quite laughable at the time and the april fall never went ahead for various reasons. But when I'm talking to schools and to others now, I often say you know, how would we feel if the Lionesses ran out in skirts? It would be laughable to almost change to think about them running out of Wembley in floaty white skirts. But we think, but that's still okay for tennis and golf and netball and hockey and those sports too.

Tess Howard : 36:47

But here's the funny thing, though, sue Everybody trains in shorts. I went on a massive Instagram stalk by Murata Karni because she plays in a skirt. Every single photo of her training on Instagram is in shorts, and there's never been a hockey player who's done a fitness test in a short, because it is impractical. Here's where I think we can win. I think we drop the it's gender discrimination, because clearly that's not going to work. So instead we go for what is performance enhancing, and this is how I started to get my teammates involved. I'm saying what's going to make the difference when we're in the 40 degree heat in Tokyo? What is going to make the difference? It's not a lightweight skirt, it's no skirt at all, it's shorts. So I think if we go along the performance enhancing and comfort, comfort route, I think we can make a lot of progress fantastic, thank you.

Sue Anstiss: 37:39

Thank you. You know there's so kind of so much to unpack there, isn't there? Uh, in terms of, I guess, in schools and so on, wendy, you know, just restricting you to that area. But in terms of the, the attitude to, to sports, and I remember talking to a director of sport recently who said actually I talked to my girls in netball and they all love the netball girls, all love their dresses. My point was well, that's lovely that they do. I'm more concerned about those that aren't in the netball team anymore, that have given up playing because they don't want to wear the dresses. So I guess that's often an answer we hear is actually the women that are playing, you love, as Tessa said, they love what they're playing in yeah, it's not surprising when you look at schools that teachers teach to their strengths.

Wendy Taylor: 38:18

They put on opportunities that are are attractive for more students like that, like themselves, and so role models.

Wendy Taylor: 38:26

And you know actually having the right conversations with a range of girls that are representative of your school population, not just the girls that you see that come to you and talk to you, seeking out and having you know those depths of conversations with a range of girls, because we know that there is a challenge for girls where they've got this constant struggle around what they see on social media, how they're meant to look, the feminine, and you know all of the selfie images that you see and that clearly is that conflict with getting changed and for all the reasons that Tess has outlined in terms of being competitive, you know getting hot and sweaty and for many of those girls that is a real challenge and therefore you know they don't want to kind of finish PE and then have to go to the next lesson hot and sweaty and feeling like you know everything that they've done to make themselves feel who they are in their identity.

Wendy Taylor: 39:16

So that there's there's got to be a way in which we create the the right environment, that where girls feel safe, where they feel valued and where they have that sense of belonging kicks one element to that. But actually also, you know how they the activities on offer, how they're delivered, and hearing that also. You know how the activities on offer, how they're delivered and hearing that actually. Yes, you know we're going to make the changing rooms more, a better environment for you. We're going to build in time where you've got, you know, time to kind of make sure that you know and nobody wants to shower in a secondary facilities. That's a whole different conversation around. You know actually the state of secondary PE facilities because-.

Wendy Taylor: 39:52

That's a's another podcast, but absolutely I think it's building girls' confidence and helping them normalise that actually how you feel and the benefits of being active and actually removing some of those inhibitions for them, to make them see that that's the space they want to be in.

Sue Anstiss: 40:09

Thank you, and I'd like to move on, if I I can I'm conscious I'm just trying to whistle through my topics is a big area, isn't it? But maybe a little bit more around a slightly murky area, really, but around women's sports clothing being designed to objectify women's bodies, which I guess is a build-on from that femininity. What we've seen I mean anyone that saw the Norwegian handball beach handball tiny, tiny bikinis last year, pictured next to the men's team in their shorts, and so on We'll understand the kind of challenges that we face. I don't know, it's a difficult topic, isn't it?

Sue Anstiss: 40:39

Because we do want women to have choice, and I think Holly and I have had that conversation before too that you want women to have. If women want to exhibit their bodies and they feel that's how they want to compete, then you want to allow them to do so. We don't want to be restrictive, but we want to have that choice too. So I don't know if any of you have got thoughts on, I guess, practical ways in which we can kind of change some of those beliefs and views, moving forward in terms of that that women playing in minimal kits for high-cut leotards, bikini bottoms and so on yeah, I mean, I have talked about this a lot and when, when the camera pans along the field of 12 girls out there, you know I'm the only one wearing what I wear.

Holly Bradshaw: 41:20

You know I have long shorts on to cover my thighs. I do not want to have my belly out on TV and that's very unusual. But I think for starters like me, being in that shows to people at home that this is an option to wear. I don't have to be. You know, a lot of girls do feel comfortable wearing crop top, shorts, knickers. That's absolutely fine, but a lot of girls don't. So the fact that I have the option out there and girls are seeing that, I've had a lot of feedback as to how much of a positive thing that is. And I think I think it is a very difficult, like you said, a very difficult conversation or a topic to talk about.

Holly Bradshaw: 41:55

And when Tess was talking about the femininity in athletics, although we don't wear skorts or dresses or anything like that, there is a big range and I almost feel like sport, especially in athletics I'm not sure on others has been lost in terms of you know, girls want to be out there and look great. In terms of you know girls want to be out there and look great, but it's gone to the extremes of it's more of a fashion show. How kind of great and sexy can you look? Because that is what sells and there's no getting away from that. But what isn't being rewarded is girls out there who are just out there because they want to do sport, they want to fling themselves over a pole, they want to run as fast as they can. They're sweaty, they're red face, they look terrible.

Holly Bradshaw: 42:35

But that's not what sports about. Like, it's the purity of of sport. And I think what you were just saying about in schools and I, I would go to mass, I'd go to English and I'd be sweating, I'd be, I'd be red face, because I'm one of those girls that I'll keep a red face for a good hour after I've played sport. And girls don't want to do that these days because of social media and the pressure to look good. And I think, yeah, the more it can be talked about, the more these barriers can be broken down, because it's just a terribly sad state of affairs, in my opinion.

Sue Anstiss: 43:07

No, I completely agree, and I think it is. There's not more we can see women being sweaty and enjoying sport in the way that men have over time. That definitely has to, you know, have an impact. Make a change there. Sorry, when did you want to say something then I?

Wendy Taylor: 43:20

was just gonna add really, and I think it's, I think it's the responsibility of us all you know, really to to see, to see the person, to see the ability to talk about the performance and not how they look. And I think, just you know, time and time again, you just you see, you hear it. You hear kind of the comments of, well, look what they're wearing, or their hair's strange, or whatever it might be, and that anything that detracts from actually this is a person that's participating to the best of their ability or, you know, for the maximum enjoyment. That's really what we really need to keep bringing it back to and challenging everybody to do so.

Holly Bradshaw: 43:55

Because I, just if I can add, I say I'm watching football and a male football player has mud everywhere, their hair's all over the show and they're sweating. Nobody would ever make a comment at all. But if I was out there playing football and I was in a tackle and my hair was all over the show, I'd mud on my face and I was sweaty, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would have an opinion on oh like, like gosh, she looks like a right state out there.

Rimla Ahktar: 44:21

I'm 100% sure that happens, but that shouldn't happen, like I don't understand why that still happens in today's society. I think it's really. It just really does vary from sport to sport, like you say, holly, because I mean I remember Jodie Cunningham's podcast, actually to give a shout out to your podcast again, sue, thank you nicely done. You know we've got the Rugby League World Cup coming up, just starting this weekend. We've got the men's, women's and the wheelchair all taking part at the same time trying to give as much equality and and kind of parity across the sports as it comes. But Jodie talks about in that podcast the fact that she loved it because she loved Rugby League, because you could come as you are right, you could come with with whatever color kit you wanted, you know ribbons in your hair, whatever it was, but you were still doing the same thing. You were tackling hard, you were running hard, you were getting muddy and dirty and kind of that question of femininity just wasn't there and what I would love to see. I mean I think one of the best pictures for me that came from when the Olympics was with the Egyptian beach volleyball players and the German volleyball player beach volleyball players. In that match that you had Dua who was there with her hijab on and her partner in in the doubles match that doesn't wear the hijab but still covers the rest, so that there was the two of them. There was a difference there, but there was also that kind of difference between what was across the net and and there, and, and the thing is it was still about the sport. I think people made it about more than that in terms of the kit, but it was just about being competitive and, and you know, enjoying the sporting spectacle that was there.

Rimla Ahktar: 45:50

So I think, actually, media and the way this all gets covered is so, so important in terms of making sure so. So, for example, with the Norwegian women's beach handball team being fined for wearing shorts instead of bikinis right, ridiculous. But can we see the same outrage when, when, when girls are forced to not wear hijab or not not allowed to cover, because actually forcing women out of clothing is just. As there's a good friend of mine and big sister, really Shireen, says to me all the time it's just as violent as forcing women into clothes. So for me it's just.

Rimla Ahktar: 46:24

We need to, I think, really put the pressure on the media as well to start covering this properly. There's something here around brands. Definitely there's something here around media which can help put the pressure to create the change that we want to see. But I absolutely agree with what Tess was saying earlier on as well, that kind of framing it in the right way that athletes can get behind it. It's that little triangle that we've got right there of the athletes, media and the brands to create the pressure on sports to make the changes.

Sue Anstiss: 46:52

Fantastic. Thank you so much. There's lots of interesting comments in the Q&A, but an interesting piece about unisex kit and the idea of having unisex kit and I love that. Charlie said unisex usually means it's just men's kit but women have to wear it. That does tend to be what we mean by. I think what we mean by unisex and I think we've seen that. I know there's a bit of an issue last year with Harlequin's big game with a women's rugby kit that looked like men's kit. So I think one of the athletes said put some of the men in a women's size 14 and see how they feel about playing in unisex kit. So I think there there have been issues there.

Sue Anstiss: 47:23

I would like just to go around and get some kind of final thoughts from you, really, if I can do, as we're closing, but in terms of if there was one thing that you think could have the biggest impact, I would like us to take away, I think, some really interesting things here in terms of the brands and you know that the impact that media can have and athletes too, in terms of driving that change and highlighting that change. But if, either from this conversation or your own thoughts, that there was one thing that you would like to share, that we could take away, that you feel will have a biggest impact in this space. Wendy, I'm going to start with you again because I started with you at the beginning, if that's okay, absolutely.

Wendy Taylor: 47:57

I mean, I think I guess for me it's really we need to keep championing that voice, that voice of you know, participants, whether that's girls in school, whether it's at all levels, and really need to kind of challenge leaders at whatever level that we're working with, and leaders, at whatever level that we're working with, and whether that's school leaders, whether that's, you know, as, as uh rimless just said, you know that the brands, media keep profiling that and really kind of keep championing, as you know, as holly and tessa obviously doing such an amazing job of doing within, within, their sport. I think one thing that I really would like to see a bit more conversation around it from a school's perspective, as well as things like sports bars and I know again, that's probably another conversation, but you know, actually, why have we not got sports bars a recommended item on a kit list, pe kit list, for example? You know too many girls running around really feeling uncomfortable yet again, and that's another. You know another element where you know we could make a big difference to how girls feel.

Sue Anstiss: 48:49

There's so much to cover. You've got four points in there.

Tess Howard : 48:52

Tess. What would your thoughts be? So my thoughts are policy takes a while to change, it's slow, but things on the ground can move really quickly, like what this Marlowe hockey you can wear whatever you want thing did. So the takeaway that I would give to those watching would be if you have whoever you have and you're in charge of give them the choice there and then and see what what happens, make choice real, make sure they feel safe, that they can actually express themselves, and if you do that, hopefully you will see that policy can then be changed afterwards. But real action starts from the ground. So I would open up with choice fantastic.

Sue Anstiss: 49:31

Thank you, tess. Uh Rimla, what would yours be?

Rimla Ahktar: 49:35

the point that I made up front of choice is definitely there. Ultimately it's about the user. As far as I'm concerned, it's the same as any other area of life. It's about what the person wants. But I would just say, for those that are here on the on on this webinar or watching back, it's for me just always question why? Just just question. Why are we doing this the way that we're doing it? And it doesn't just apply to kits, because oftentimes you'll find that there's no real rational reason for it and there is a better way to do it. So I would just say question in whatever your sphere of influence is, question why we're doing things the way that we're doing them fantastic, fantastic.

Holly Bradshaw: 50:11

Thank you, vimla, and no pressure, holly, but uh over to you for the last point all the options have gone now I would just again like we've touched on um ask brands and national governing bodies to just ask the athletes what they want. It's almost I like the idea of more choices, but has anyone ever sat down with a group of shop putters and said what is it that you want to wear? Because I bet it hasn't happened and I'd just like to see a lot more of that from the brands and the governing bodies, rather than just choosing four options, the easier four options, what you want to wear. I'd just like to see a bit more of that.

Sue Anstiss: 50:48

Fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you all of you. We've all got to go away and be more rigorously inclusive now. I'm going to use that lovely phrase, tess, but thank you to Wendy, tess, rimla and Holly. I appreciate your time. So thank you all so much. I really hope you enjoyed that session as much as I did. What brilliant women they are.

Sue Anstiss: 51:12

I'd love to hear your feedback on this format or on the game changes generally, so do get in touch on social media, where you'll find me on Twitter, linkedin and Instagram at Sue Anstis. Head over to fearlesswomencouk to find out more about all of the incredible game changes I've spoken to for this and the previous series, as well as listening to all the podcasts. On the website, you can find out more about the Collective a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. You can sign up for the Fearless Women newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport and there's more about my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport highlights the developments in women's sport and there's more about my book game on the unstoppable rise of women's sport.

Sue Anstiss: 51:59

The game changes is completely free to listen to across all podcast platforms, so please give us a follow so you don't miss future episodes and if you have time for a quick review or rating, we'd be so grateful, as it really helps us to reach new listeners. Thanks again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker at what Goes On Media, who does such a great job as our executive producer. Finally, thank you to my brilliant colleague, kate Hannan, who does so much behind the scenes. At Fearless Women, the game changes. Fearless Women in Sport.