This episode was previously released on June 4, 2019 as the very first episode of The Game Changers
Having won 11 Paralympic Gold medals and the London Marathon six times, Tanni now sits as an independent peer in the House of Lords and is Chair of ukactive.
Find out more about The Game Changers here
Abbie Ward. A Bump in the Road a powerful documentary, chronicles the remarkable journey of an England rugby player as she battles back to the professional game just 17 weeks after the birth of her baby in July 2023 and then to secure her place back in England’s Six Nations squad for 2024.
Watch now
UK on ITVX: https://www.itv.com/watch/abbie-ward-a-bump-in-the-road/10a5679a0001B
Worldwide on RugbyPass TV: https://rugbypass.tv/video/6069
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
This episode was previously released on June 4, 2019 as the very first episode of The Game Changers
Having won 11 Paralympic Gold medals and the London Marathon six times, Tanni now sits as an independent peer in the House of Lords and is Chair of ukactive.
Find out more about The Game Changers here
Abbie Ward. A Bump in the Road a powerful documentary, chronicles the remarkable journey of an England rugby player as she battles back to the professional game just 17 weeks after the birth of her baby in July 2023 and then to secure her place back in England’s Six Nations squad for 2024.
Watch now
UK on ITVX: https://www.itv.com/watch/abbie-ward-a-bump-in-the-road/10a5679a0001B
Worldwide on RugbyPass TV: https://rugbypass.tv/video/6069
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello, I'm Sue Anstiss. Welcome to The Game Changers podcast, where you'll hear from trailblazing fearless women in sport. In this first episode, it's 11 times Paralympic champion, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson, who, following her extraordinary sporting career, now sits as an independent peer in the House of Lords. This is where she and I sat down to talk about her career. I began by asking her how she got started in sport.
Tanni Grey Thompson:My family were really sporty, so my dad played a lot of sport, my mum loved watching sport, so I think that that was kind of just there in our lives. I think I was quite a competitive child so it's kind of a, I think, an easy thing to to funnel me into. Apparently I was quite an annoying child lots of energy, surely not didn't stop talking ever. So I think my dad thought it might quiet me down a bit. And I think I mean the dad thought it might quiet me down a bit. And I think the other reason it was actually when I started. It was all about being physically active. It wasn't about kind of a sports pathway.
Tanni Grey Thompson:My dad was an architect and I started using a wheelchair when I was about six or seven I can't really remember because I'd become paralysed over a period of years because my spine collapsed and I think dad recognized that to push a chair around I needed to be quite fit and strong and it was about being active and it was about getting the most out of being a wheelchair user.
Tanni Grey Thompson:And then the sport sort of came like. The competitive sport came later, but in the early years it was about being fit and strong enough to push my chair, get upstairs, crawl upstairs, you know, just just live an independent life. And then, much, much later, my dad said to me actually not long before he died that because I was quite an annoying child, they just didn't want me being completely dependent on them and living at home forever. So, um, and you know, my dad gave me a different version when I was young, but, uh, I think that was the reality and and I think they were always really conscious from I remember having this conversation with them when I was quite young, you know, they didn't. I've got an older sister and they didn't want her to kind of feel that she had this responsibility to look after me and change her life, to look. So, you know, at the time, sort of 70s, there was a very different attitude towards disabled people, so what my parents were doing was actually really forward thinking in terms of looking at what was best for me.
Sue Anstiss:Clearly your parents were hugely enlightened there. How was the attitude to sport, to a young child in a wheelchair taking part in sport in Wales in the 70s? Were people welcoming? Were there opportunities?
Tanni Grey Thompson:There were actually. I mean, I grew up in Cardiff so I think there were lots of opportunities there. So because we had really good facilities. So, you know, I learned to swim and I did horse riding, and the primary school I went to was very inclusive before we actually ever thought about inclusive PE. So, you know, I was included in a lot of what was going on and you were in a mainstream school, weren't you? Yeah, mainstream.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So I was the only wheelchair user, I think. I can't remember, I think the only probably very visible disabled person. So you know, the teachers, just PE teachers, just included me as much as they possibly could. And then when I went to high school which was quite a complicated affair because there was only one school in South Glamorgan that would take me as a wheelchair user and my dad had to threaten to sue the Secretary of State for Wales over my right to go to mainstream school, so I got to the one mainstream school that would take me and actually there they were pretty inclusive. So, mrs Cogbill, my first PE teacher, you know, in um, what, what's now? Year seven, you know it was just right. Well, I mean, we look, I went to a state school, we had a swimming pool. Um, you know, it's like right no swim, just just be as inclusive as you can, so so that had um an impact on me as well that's fantastic to hear that impact.
Sue Anstiss:I say the teachers. I keep hearing the story of the teachers that make the difference there. And when did you find, uh, wheelchair racing? I hear that basketball was a little bit in your history for a brief period.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah, I mean, I I love basketball and um, I just was completely and utterly useless at it. So I can't throw, catch or shoot and um, no skill whatsoever. So I tried, and I remember going to stoke mandeville I was about 12 and watching the men's gb team play and thinking this looked, you know, just amazing. But we didn't really have a team around or there weren't enough. So the mainstream school I went to there were about 30 wheelchair users and there was a special school next door where there were obviously a lot more, but there weren't really enough to form a team and to do training sessions. And I think I learned early on if you're not going to be able to train and you're not going to play well. And also, I just I went to play at juniors and I think I got fouled off for fighting.
Sue Anstiss:I did. I love that story of you slapping somebody, mate. Yeah, I mean I think, oh, it's a bit over exaggerated no, no, no, it's um.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I mean what happened? We played in mixed teams and this boy just kept elbowing me in the bicep and it really hurt. And he did it when the ref wasn't looking and I kind of slapped him right in front of the referee and I remember the referee saying you can't go around punching people. I went, no, I slapped him as if that was some kind of defence and it's like oh right, okay. So I think the that point I realised basketball wasn't going to be the thing. So I mean, I did a little bit of wheelchair racing at that point, but I think I knew then that wheelchair racing was going to be the thing because actually I could do it on my own. I could train on my own yes, you can train with others but I knew that even at that age that I had to be doing a lot more training than I was able to do to play basketball.
Sue Anstiss:And quite a rapid rise. So you started at about 13, I think, and by 17 you were in the national team. Is that the case? It feels like it was right from the start. You knew that was your goal was it to represent the country.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah, my goal was to compete for GB and you know, I joined Bridgend Athletics Club.
Sue Anstiss:Had a great coach there called Roy Anthony who never coached a wheelchair user, but just learns. That's amazing. I didn't realize that when I read your background, I assumed that he was already training wheelchair athletes. That's fantastic, I mean he had?
Tanni Grey Thompson:he had a big squad of girls. I mean you look back now and think, wow, I mean he had about 30 hormonal teenagers. I mean, uh, he was ex-police officer that may be so helped and you know we used to.
Tanni Grey Thompson:We had a grass track in brigende and um we used to train in the multi-story car park, um, in the winter, used to sprint up and down the car park ramps and he was great and he just, he just learned and and was just keen and willing to do it. So the the atmosphere in brigende athletic club was fab because we had a a non-disabled runner, steve brace, who's one of the best marathon runners in the world at the time that was, he was part of the club and you know it was just.
Tanni Grey Thompson:It was a very friendly, open club. It wasn't an elitist club, even though we had Steve it was incredible.
Sue Anstiss:So it just felt a really nice place to be as a as a developing teenager and they must be excited too, as you went to your first Paralympics at Seoul in at 19. So I guess how did that feel as a teenager, still to be representing your country and getting that kit.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Oh, it was amazing. So I didn't expect to go to Seoul and I think I was one of the last on the team to be selected. So it was given to me, you know, as an opportunity to kind of step up. And I remember getting the letter. So I'd come home from university and you know, mum was there and she'd oh, there's a letter, you know, and it had the GB team logo on it. I remember opening it and just said it said dear Tani, congratulations. And I remember just like screaming so I've still got the letter, um, it's lovely, um, so that that was really amazing because I wasn't expecting, I thought I might if I was lucky, but it wasn't an expectation.
Sue Anstiss:It almost makes it more wonderful that it wasn't waiting, and waiting to hear from the selectors is a bit of a surprise.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah, well, I mean, if you don't get selected, they just don't tell you and it's only when you ring round to go oh, you've all had your selection letters, right? I haven't. So you know, and I think you know, going to Seoul, you know I'm sort of a million miles away from Cardiff where I was studying at Loughborough at that point. You know just the culture, everything was so different and the games were great. It was the first time we'd had sort of Paralympic Games in the same venues. We had a different village but you know you kind of felt that this was a real step up for the games, there'd been a real evolution. So Seoul felt Significant, yeah, yeah.
Tanni Grey Thompson:And also, you know, being youngsters sort of going around and you know I was studying politics and you know, looking at the cultural side and the history of Korea, I had some time off at the end and we sort of did a little bit of travelling around and seeing. You know there were a lot of protests against the American army that still had a really heavy presence there. So you know we went up to the demilitarised zone.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So there was a couple of athletes I dragged I'm not sure whether they really wanted to come with me or not, but I'm not going on my own um and and so just seeing the impact of sport, as well as the stuff that I always do, which is quite selfish, but the impact that sport had on the country and on people. Because before the seoul paralympics, you know a lot of disabled children were, you know, in homes or living on the street and you know they basically picked up a bunch of disabled children were, you know, in homes or living on the street and you know they basically picked up a bunch of young people, trained them up to be athletes and you know for them, if they won a medal in Seoul they got a flat and a pension. So you know that was huge motivation for those athletes.
Sue Anstiss:And you've mentioned a couple of times Loughborough obviously best university in the world. Delighted to be a fellow graduate of Loughborough.
Tanni Grey Thompson:How was university life for you? It was good. I mean, it was quite mixed, I think. At the time they didn't, you know, they didn't have many disabled athletes there. There was somebody who played basketball and there was me and um, so some of the training facilities weren't accessible.
Sue Anstiss:So like the track wasn't accessible, yeah, I was thinking that and student, but I was actually thinking about you at Loughborough as to how, how accessible it was and um, not great.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So I was in Towers as all a resident, so the bar was upstairs.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So, you just have to crawl up and down the stairs and you know to get to the track. So there's a really low wall which everyone could jump over except me. So trying to, you know, training was not easy, so a lot of the gyms weren't accessible. But actually what I learned quite early on is is actually, instead of trying to do my circuits with the athletics squad, I joined the mountaineering club. They were brilliant I mean just completely crazy bunch of guys, but really welcoming, really open. Their training was much more suited to what I needed. So, even though my experience at Loughborough was quite mixed in terms of accessibility, I found a way through and and I kind of thrived in spite of some of the access issues.
Sue Anstiss:And clearly you know you have this phenomenal career path of all those years. Are there any that are particularly that you look back now and think there are any that were the most significant in terms of world records broken or world championships and so on?
Tanni Grey Thompson:There's a few. I mean, some of the best races I ever did weren't races at major games. So I think I looked at success in lots of different ways and I think if someone says what's your top ten racer, they expect to be Paralympic finals For me. I just looked at it all in different ways.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I remember being in Gothenburg in 1995 and knowing on the start line that I was going to break the 400 world record. I think that's the only time it ever happened. You just I mean because of my training, where I was how I was pushing competition on the track and I remember just looking at the wind direction with the flags in the stadium and thinking this is, I've just got to go for it. So you don't get many days like that, I think, coming back after having my daughter Karis. You know there were lots of people who at that point thought I should retire.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Athens was a really difficult game for me, so I went from completely screwing up my 800 meter final, which was my strongest event, and coming back and winning the 100, which is my weakest. So you know, I still think that 100 is probably the best technical race I've ever done under that type of pressure, because you know there were people who thought I should have left the games, gone home, home, or, you know, just did lots of interviews where they're saying you're too old. Thanks for that. I think I was 30, I think I was 33.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So you know, it's stuff like that, so kind of mostly a lot of what you remember is just the other stuff that goes alongside it that people don't see. You know some of the camaraderie travelling with your mates or you know coming back on a team flight with 150 kit bags which are identical, which is a joy, you know. So it's that stuff. Where they go, you know, oh, sydney must have been amazing. Or I remember sitting looking at all these bags going, oh, mine's there somewhere, yeah, where's mine. And so, yeah, there's all this other stuff which is quite hard to articulate, and do you?
Sue Anstiss:think you had the chance to enjoy those wins. I mean, when I look at how prolific you've been in the gold and actually you've been in one championship winning two or three medals did you get the chance to enjoy that or were you always looking forward to the next medal and so on?
Tanni Grey Thompson:no, I don't think I enjoyed it really until I stopped, because I think I was always looking forward to the next. So it's yeah. I mean, if you're doing multi-events at games, you, you just have to. You know, if you win the first one, you have to go back, eat, sleep, drink, you know, yeah, water you know and refuel for the next. So you know pretty much I was competing throughout the whole of the games for most of the champs I went to.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So you know, I think Athens I was competing first day of athletics and my last race was my last but one event of the games. So you don't kind of get to. You know I wasn't there as a tourist, but I'm in Seoul, I think I was. But but that was a very different stage in my career. All the others I was there to to win or to do the best I could. So you know, and you come home and you have a couple of weeks off and then you're back into training. So for me I just, I think I always just knew I had this limited time and I competed for a long time in the end, but I didn't want to ever retire and think, oh, if only. So you know, for me it was. It was a lot of choice, but I didn't do. You know, I trained and competed and did other stuff around it, but competing was always and the next event was an important one, and obviously some disappointments along the way.
Sue Anstiss:You don't win everything without losing some too, and how do you think, as a person, you've dealt with that?
Tanni Grey Thompson:I think you know my first few years competing although I was improving and I knew I was and I could see my pbs getting better I didn't win a race until I think I was 16. So I've lost a lot of races and that's kind of part of it. I think my parents had a very balanced view of it was. You know, you, you go to the start line in the best shape you can be and you do the best you can and you might make a stupid mistake or the wrong decision or someone's better, and it's not great at the time, but it's how you. You step away from that and rebuild and come back. So you know, sometimes, when it's not always easy to deal with I mean it it it's easier to deal with than losing, but sometimes the pressure that puts you under that doesn't always help. Or people just expect you're going to turn up and it's going to be easy, or um. So I think I had a relatively balanced as much as you can balanced approach.
Sue Anstiss:But you know that everything's like a stepping stone to the next thing you're doing and obviously 30 world records across those years which aren't yours to keep, like the medals. And how has that felt as they I guess as the first one, second one as they've passed to other people. How does that? Interested to know how that feels, is there? So my 200 world record went, I think within about six weeks of me retiring.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Don't think about coming back to get back, and it happened when I was competing, I mean, I think for me when I retired. You know that's it, it's done. You know there's nothing, can't do anything about it, and it's funny as you see sort of athletes coming through and being hugely successful. So, like Dame Sarah Storick, they go oh, how do you?
Sue Anstiss:are you gutted? She's got more medals. I was delighted. I had the emotion when she won her 12th gold.
Tanni Grey Thompson:It was brilliant because it's like you know, if about it, actually I still would have been really pleased for her, but I can't do it. You know I can't do anything about. So, um, yeah, um, no, actually. So jess garley, american athlete, broke my 200 records. Um, I sent her an email and just said congratulations because, for me, I look it's. She was an athlete who had always sort of just sort of about been there but not quite and made it through and hadn't kind of quite got to a potential, and so to see her actually just push.
Tanni Grey Thompson:You know this, this world record time was was actually really it's progression, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss:it's it's life moving on and other athletes coming through.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah you don't want sport to be, you know yeah, or just you know world records in some athletic events. World records there for a long time for lots of different reasons. But you know you don't want it to be static, you want other people to come through.
Sue Anstiss:That's prior to that, and it's interesting that you competed until you were 35, which is quite a Well. You were married then and you had a child. So I guess, how do you feel that time in your sporting career was different to those early days?
Tanni Grey Thompson:Having Caris was. I'd never held a baby, so I was and know the conversation was like, oh, wow, you know, after Sydney it was like we've got Manchester Commonwealth Games in 2002 and wow, we need to have a child, kind of now, so if we're going to do it, so you know, luckily that kind of worked out. But I mean it was easy when she was little because you could just travel the world with a baby and stick it in a pram and I mean the great thing about wheelchair racing as a sport, you know loads and loads of people. So I had all sorts of people looking after caris when she was a baby and, um it, it got hard when she started school. But I do remember one race in bedford.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I was doing 400 meters so I was probably away from her, for actually I warmed up with her there, so I was probably only away from her for about quarter of an hour, I think she was probably about four and I came back and she had an ice cream and it's like where'd you get that? And she said, oh, john, and gave it to me and he was one of the officials. So I kind of went over and said, oh, thank you for, you know, buying her ice cream. But and he said, oh well, you know, we walked past her and she sat there and said mummy hasn't had time to buy me an ice cream, because she's really busy.
Sue Anstiss:She's a shrewd girl.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So I had to go around and all the officials go do not listen to my child, but there is a real family atmosphere. So that was lovely. So loads of people, kind of babysat Carys.
Sue Anstiss:And I guess your approach to training and competing over those 13 years. Do you think that changed significantly?
Tanni Grey Thompson:Did you like training? I like training sort of 10 times a week. I'm not sure I like training 15 times a week but you have to you know.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So you know it was just what you have to do. So, no, I'd say, mostly I did like training, because it's also a means to an end, because you can't be on the start line, you can't get in the team unless you're, you know, in good shape. So my training changed quite a lot from being a young athlete, which you know developing slowly and learning and putting stuff together. We generally trained for 49, 50 weeks of the year and you'd have periods in that where you're dropping down or picking up a bit. But I think one of the things I was able to do was also train quite smart.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So you know we now call it prehab. There wasn't a word for it when I was competing, but it was basically looking after your body. So I was doing rotator cuff exercise, looking after my shoulders. You know from my early 20s. So you know my shoulders aren't great, my elbows aren't great, my there's lots of bits of me that aren't great now, but they're not as bad as they would have been. Because for me it's not just about doing the training, it's about your diet, it's about your chair, it's about all the other things about sleeping, yeah, um and I am quite focused, obsessive.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Uh, actually, not. Now I've stopped competing. I'm well, I'm still quite.
Sue Anstiss:But what was your family saying?
Tanni Grey Thompson:yeah, it's all a scam um, so you know, when I was competing, it was just that's.
Sue Anstiss:That's what you have to do and there's lots more talk now around transition and I feel like, especially in the last five, ten years even, of people recognizing that that is a process, with that organisations there to help athletes. So how was that for you, that transition from full-time professional athlete to the next stage of your life? Do you feel that was a smooth transition because you knew what you wanted to do?
Tanni Grey Thompson:I think it was okay. I mean I still think it's challenging. I mean my dad was always, you know, from being young, he was like, right, you can mess about being an athlete once you've got your degree, okay, and and they were hugely supportive. But you know, dad fairly regularly was saying to me so what you're going to do next? Like, well, I'm retired yet and so I think actually, um, that was helpful.
Tanni Grey Thompson:But I was thinking about other stuff. So you know, I sat on sport, wales and sport england and uk sport and did lots of other things while I was competing that fitted in with my competition schedule and the training. And I think that was important to have other skills because you never know when you're going to retire. So I'd pretty seriously planned my retirement for three and a bit years before I stopped. So what I thought would happen? Because I was just mentally and physically broken and tired and I just had enough and, if I'm honest, the sort of the final year I was a bit tired of people saying to me oh, you're that athlete, aren't you? And I remember thinking, right, when I stop competing, people are going to stop saying that to me and it's great, I don't have to be this athlete anymore and 12 years into retirement, people say you're that athlete, aren't you?
Sue Anstiss:and?
Tanni Grey Thompson:so there was about six months afterwards where it's like, oh, just get a grip, tanny, you know just, it's actually really nice and and I think I heard matt pinson talk about it and he said it took him some time to find some peace with himself and I think that's good and your sense of self, your your new self, was it were.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah and I think again, I was lucky because my family never I wasn't just an athlete to them, but to lots of other people you are just an athlete. So I think my family gave me a lot of sense of perspective. I remember I've been training in Australia for three and a half months and I came back and like family dinner and after about 10 minutes of me waxing lyrical about Australia and my dad was like right, you kind of rang home a couple of times a week, you wrote a couple of times a week. Um, you trained a lot. You went out on New Year's eve, did you do anything else?
Speaker 3:I was like well, not really, and you're like okay.
Tanni Grey Thompson:And then he said to me I said right now, how was your day at work? And and so that that was actually really good to have that kind of back. So yeah it was um, and I've kind of joked. You know, first time before christmas somebody stopped me in the street and said, um, oh, you're that politician aren't you, it's like yeah, but um no, but now it's, it's okay.
Tanni Grey Thompson:You know, someone else stopped me the other week and said you're the athlete and it's like I've retired. You went oh, have you? I hope so, because I don't think I look very athletic anymore. So no, but it's just. You know, people are generally lovely, so you just, I'm very privileged because of my life in sports, so you know, it's okay and you're obviously a post-athlete career.
Sue Anstiss:People will know you from the broadcasting side but you, as you've mentioned, you've sat on so many boards and sports boards in england and wales and so on. So I guess how do you feel you go about choosing those roles? I'm sure you're approached a lot to get involved in things. What do you have to decide? What you take on?
Tanni Grey Thompson:I think I'm very privileged because for the vast majority of the time I get to work with people I like. So if I like people, that's a really, really, really privileged place to be in. You know, for me, uh, I'm really interested because my route into sport was via physical activity. You know sport well, elite sport kind of looks after itself. But if we don't have young people being active and everyone being active, so for me that's a part of a disability, right. So they all kind of intertwine and and I think my dad would I mean I did have a real job for a couple of years, a full-time job.
Speaker 3:What did you do? I worked at.
Tanni Grey Thompson:British Athletics as a development officer. So 96 to 99 or 2000. So you know. But my dad would always say I never had a real job. And when I actually came to the House of Lords he said well, it's still not a real job, is it OK? Thanks, dad, but no, I think it's I'm lucky, the stuff I get to do kind of mostly fits together.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, and you mentioned disability rights. Obviously, you're such a well-known campaigner and activist now really Do you think things are improving for people in the UK as we are here today?
Tanni Grey Thompson:It's really mixed. Some bits have got better, but I think some of the attitudes have got worse, and so I think you know a lot around the portrayal of disabled people is you're either a Paralympian, so you must be all lovely and warm and cuddly, or you know you're a benefit scrounger and there's not always a lot in between For your normal people.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, trying to live their lives, yeah and I think that's really difficult.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So in terms of you know, getting into education work, it is challenging. So I've had some of the worst discrimination I've experienced in the last four or five years than I had 30 years ago.
Sue Anstiss:Why do you think that is? I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? When you think about the elements of racism within football, you know it's a very sad side of society seems to be changing on the negative side.
Tanni Grey Thompson:It is because, you know, I remember thinking 30 years ago oh, in a couple of years racism from sport will be gone.
Sue Anstiss:And you go oh no, oh no.
Tanni Grey Thompson:And so I mean I think we do sort of have these sort of cycles, but it is quite worrying that I don't know. I mean you can't blame austerity for everything, but I think at times like that, people do turn in on themselves, you know. And the dreaded brexit, well, you know, I don't think that's helped anything. It's clouded out everything else we're not debating in politics, you know, we're not tackling issues in the nhs, universal credit, all these things, because brexit swamped everything. So I don't think that's helped. You know, the last three years we we've just not done some of the stuff we should be doing.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, the compassion and what can we do, I guess, as individuals? What could we be doing to help transform the discrimination, as it were, towards disabled people in society?
Tanni Grey Thompson:I think it's just sort of treat disabled people as people. Um, you know, there's a hashtag on social media which is ask, don't grab which? Uh, dr amy kavanagh started. She's visually impaired, and it started off as a bit of a joke. And then you know, as a visually impaired person, she's constantly walked across the road she doesn't want to walk across. Or the other joke is, because she happens to work near the RNIB, loads of people stop her every day and go are you going to the RNIB? And she's like no, we don't live there.
Tanni Grey Thompson:So it's things that I just kind of ask people, you know, don you know? Just, you know, don't just sort of assume, assume and or don't just assume that, uh, you, you can't do things. I think for me the biggest challenge is if someone asks do you want help, and I say no, I'm fine, thank you, but thank you for asking. Some people will still then help me. All right, I'll just still push, yeah, so I somebody can air you off. Asked you don't want any help, I said no, I'm fine, thank you. I mean the fact I had a rucksack on my back, went on my chair, my handbag on my knee, I was talking on my phone, so I probably looked like I wasn't very um you didn't know you needed it, but you need it and I said no.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I'm fine, I think, and she just carried on pushing me anyway and it's like I don't want to move. So some of that, I mean some of it's funny and some I'm quite resilient about a lot of that stuff.
Sue Anstiss:I guess at least that way people are trying. You know, they don't quite know, they're trying to question and, yeah, and give what's needed and I. It's interesting I talked about social media, but there's some fantastic stuff that you've shared. Some threads there was one a couple of weeks ago about a girl going out to trying to go with her friends to a nightclub anyway makes me well up now thinking about it. Just such powerful stuff. So I think the power of sharing those stories of social media to open people's minds to what it's like in terms of accessibility.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I tweet a lot about trains.
Sue Anstiss:Yes, a lot about trains.
Tanni Grey Thompson:And it's funny, one of the train operating companies said to me what will it take for you to go away? I was like, well, I just want the same miserable experience of commuting as everyone else, and I'm not there yet, so you know.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I don't want it to be perfect. You know that's not real, but I think sometimes the power of social media is quite good and, um, I mean the other thing is that you know being in the lords. If you write to a train operating company or someone on headed paper, they kind of have to reply, because if they don't, you know I'll go to the transport minister. So it's knowing how to work through that and find an effective way, because actually probably some of my campaign and I've been more effective and changing attitudes on social media. Yeah, yeah, and I have been sitting in those meetings.
Sue Anstiss:I've learned so much following the stuff you've shared and opened my mind to things that I wouldn't have thought before. So there is that power to reach millions through that too, isn't?
Tanni Grey Thompson:there, yeah, and it can be really useful. So, um, yeah, I have had a few people who've said to me they've stopped following me till I stopped tweeting about drones, like, yeah, it might be a while. Bye then Some of it's. I mean, I really some of the kind of the fight I really enjoy as well. So my sister said to me recently you're like a little mogwai or gremlin, you know, don't feed a tip water on her or talk about trains after midnight, because it just sets me up for it Maltesers.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah, and so you know, know it's some of that, because I just think I do have a platform and it's not always easy. But you know, I just think my dad sold me when I was really young that I was lucky, I had a really good education and really supportive parents, and he remember I was probably about 18, 19 saying that I had responsibility to make sure, to try and help make sure other people had the same life I had. And we're nowhere near that yet Does that stay with you.
Tanni Grey Thompson:That's kind of driver for you. Yeah, and apparently he told me when I was 21 I was going to end up in the House of Lords, which I do not remember the conversation at all, Because people say, oh well, that was that part. No, I don't remember. And the other thing, yeah, when I got here, dad was like well, I told you that. So my sister remembers.
Sue Anstiss:I don't remember at all, and has that been a positive experience for you in the House of Lords?
Tanni Grey Thompson:It's an amazing place. I mean, it's just, people are very open and very helpful and they want to beat you when you're good in the chamber. So you know, when you're in the chamber it's very equitable. So I've never felt patronised here. I've very equitable and very so I've never felt patronized here. I've never felt, uh, treated differently. You're, you're an equal and and that's that's an amazing place to be and people are here because they want to do at the end of the day.
Sue Anstiss:That's why that you know, for whatever reason, whether we agree or disagree, they're here because they want to make a difference and and do good yeah, because you don't have to be here.
Tanni Grey Thompson:You know, nothing makes you come, um, so, you know, except, you know, I firmly believe you accept the title. You should come, but, um, you know it's um. I found just some amazing people and I found really really helpful people. So, you know, when I was working on the welfare reform bill, I had government peers help me rewrite amendments to make them better. Uh, they didn't always vote with me, but you, you can find a lot of collaboration here. So actually a lot of the stuff I learned from sport transfers really well in terms of, you know, finding the people that that share a similar view. You know, just, it's almost like putting your training group around you.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, you, you, you find people that you work on similar issues and what are you most proud of in since you've been in this role and position, would you say?
Tanni Grey Thompson:Probably. I mean, welfare reform was a really tough bill to do. I mean, I didn't win any votes, I changed some bits. It's much harder to articulate or to measure success these days. You know, as an athlete, because it's gold medals and silvers and bronzes only count if there's a tie for gold, as lovely as they are. But you know, you know where you are as an athlete it's much harder to do that. I mean, I think some of the work I'm doing around train access and that kind of the persistence I think you know we've now got. You know, train companies talk, but you know, again, I have loads of help on the outside. I have people on social media who engage with me, which gives me a way to have a discussion, you know. So it's not me. I've got loads and loads of other people around and about who help do that. So yeah, if we can make train travel better, that would be A huge thing and you obviously study politics.
Sue Anstiss:Has politics as in, not crossbench, been an option? There's a couple of leadership at the moment you throw your hat into the ring. There, I think you do an amazing job, a couple of leadership at the moment you throw your hat into the ring there.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I think you do an amazing job. Being a crossbench is quite nice. Actually, the best and the worst thing about being an independent is no one tells me how to vote. I love it. But there are days when you come in and there's a vote like oh what?
Sue Anstiss:what? What is that? Hang on a minute?
Tanni Grey Thompson:and so you know I I only vote on things if I can explain in five sentences why I voted on something. Yeah, and there's sometimes that you think I don't know which is best. So I think voting is massively important. I don't kind of throw away any of my votes.
Sue Anstiss:You haven't answered my question, have you? Might it be in the future. No, I'm quite happy.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I think, oh, I mean, if I jump to a party you can't go back. So I think I personally, I can do a lot more as an independent.
Sue Anstiss:I don't really like being told what to do, so I don't think I'd cope very well and you've spoken we've talked about a lot of the causes that you've gotten around, many in gender equality as well, and also the body issues facing young women and athletes, and so on. That's something you've been quite vocal about in the past.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah, I mean I think there's a huge challenge. Actually, I think for young women there's so much more pressure and increasingly young men. You know, I mean it used to be just girls who had to worry about their hair and makeup and all things like that, and it's much wider than that. I think you know there's huge pressure on to look a certain way, have the right handbag. You know you have the right handbag, you'll be happy. I mean I can't blame the Kardashians for everything, but I think For a bit yeah.
Tanni Grey Thompson:But there's this sort of unreal world out there and you know some of the pressure on girls. You know to be a size zero. It's the size of a 12-year-old girl. It's not possible in a balanced environment to have that.
Sue Anstiss:And what do you think we can do to change that?
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah, I mean, I think some of it you can't dial back on, you know, um god, I mean, have a look at some of my school photos. Wow, there's some interesting haircuts there. So you know, I wouldn't want to say to young women and boys, no, you shouldn't explore yourself.
Sue Anstiss:Yeah, you know you should, but.
Tanni Grey Thompson:But actually I think there's a lot more education around. You know photoshopping, things like that. You know if, if you can afford a professional makeup artist and they spend an hour doing your makeup and airbrushing it, I mean they can make anyone look amazing because that's their job. So I think it's just having that kind of reality check, yeah, which I think is is quite important.
Tanni Grey Thompson:But, um, I do worry and maybe you know I'm sure my parents worried about me. I worry about the pressure that's on young people, you know, to be on social media, to be on Instagram.
Sue Anstiss:You know the pictures, sort of the pouty pictures you see, I guess that's what we hope that sport might help and make a difference.
Tanni Grey Thompson:But I know many sporty girls who are still the other side of their life is still very much social media appearances, trying to aspire to conform to what's there and I think one of the challenges for female athletes it is can be still based on how you look absolutely, and you know sponsorship can still be very heavily based around that and I think it's interesting. You know, now you're seeing more face products for men. Liverpool football club advertised face products and hair products. You know what's happening is there's gonna be more pressure on young men to look and behave a certain way, and whether that's having lots of tattoos or your haircut, so I don't think the pressure is going to go down. I think it's maybe going to become more balanced.
Sue Anstiss:But in the wrong way.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah, yeah and all coming down, yeah. So I think that's pretty tough. But you know, we have a lack of female coaches, lack of women in leadership roles in sport, lack of female agents, and the cycle can perpetuate.
Sue Anstiss:Do you?
Tanni Grey Thompson:feel we're moving in a positive direction. Do you think things are changing there? I do think, yeah. I mean I speak to more women who want to come into sport, into, you know, the admin side. I think sometimes it's hard to get your foot in the door and it's hard to challenge some of the stereotypes that exist. But this is where I think you know sport shouldn't be, shouldn't think of itself as different. If businesses have to have 50 50 representation on the board, sport should be the same. Yeah, and I take quite a harsh view, you know, governing bodies. I've had a long time, yeah, to do that so just a lot of public money, lots of, and just just do it.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Yeah, you know, um. And so I still occasionally hear, oh well, there are not enough good women. So so my response is, yeah, no, there are loads of good women. They just don't want to work with you, um, so, um, no, I think it's good, but we, we do need to do more to have more women in leadership yeah, just and calling it out.
Sue Anstiss:I guess that's the thing as well as make't it, counting the numbers and raising awareness.
Tanni Grey Thompson:It's a positive on social that at least we can spread the word more, perhaps make some more noise around it too, and I think you know, for a lot of female athletes, for a lot of athletes, it's hard to know what to do in transition and I think there's just more we can do around giving everyone and young women, helping them to get some more of those skills, so when they transition out they do have options and not just coaching, because just because you've been a good athlete doesn't make you a good coach. I'm sorry, I know that from experience, so you know it's because I don't want to be kind of looking around boardrooms. I don't want to ever be the only disabled person in the room or the only disabled woman or the only woman, and that has changed in, but I just like it to be a bit quicker.
Sue Anstiss:So now the final couple of questions. That's okay. So the podcast is called the game changer. So trailblazing, extraordinary, fearless women in sport tick lots of those boxes as you look back, I guess, in another 30 years, what would you like your, your legacy to be? Oh gosh, that's hard.
Tanni Grey Thompson:Hopefully it's not just what I did on the track, because that for me, was quite a personal thing and quite a selfish thing and it's what I wanted to do for me, um, so hopefully it's beyond that.
Tanni Grey Thompson:I'd love it. If you know, we have loads of women who think sport and physical activity on lots of different levels is something. But that's for them and and they feel part of it and I'd love to be able to, you know, whatever I'm working on have 40 women's numbers that I can ring to ask for help, instead of 40 men and five women, you know that way. So you know that would be the ideal, not easy to measure, but I spend some time with young athletes, women who are coming close to retirement, just trying to give them. But I spend some time with young athletes, women who are coming close to retirement, just trying to give them. I had people who just gave me a step up and who gave me the chance. So you know, in my mid-20s I sat on the National Disability Council which oversaw the implementation of the Disability Discrimination Act, and so for me it's trying to help young women have some of those opportunities to learn and develop.
Sue Anstiss:A huge thank you to Tanni for being so generous with her time. It was a real privilege to hear her talk about her life with so much openness. It's easy to see why she's had such a huge impact both on and off the track. I'd love to hear what you think about the Game Changers podcast, so please do leave a review or give us a rating. It makes a massive difference and will also help us to spread the word about these amazing women in sport. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe to the Game Changers and you can find out more about all our guests at promoteprcom slash Game Changers. Next week you'll hear from the utterly extraordinary four times Ironman world champion, chrissie Wellington. It's a fascinating conversation where she talks very openly about the highs and lows in her incredible career.
Speaker 3:Sport, if we're pushing ourselves, is about learning to endure discomfort and self-doubt and pain. Yeah, I experienced that in all of the different races and challenges that I've I've done, but definitely over the course of an Ironman. It lasts a lot longer.