Mo Hunt: The journey to professional rugby

“It was such a shock for me and it still is. I still don't understand it to this day. I actually didn't sleep that night because I didn't want to wake up and it be something I had to deal with again.”

Mo Hunt discussing her surprise exclusion from the Rugby World Cup squad in 2023

Ahead of this weekend’s start of the Guinness Women’s Six Nations, I’m thrilled to say that my guest today is Mo Hunt, a much-celebrated international rugby player who's represented her country for over 13 years. 

Mo was part of the England team that won the World Cup in 2014, won numerous Six Nations Championships and, as a Sevens player, has represented Team GB at the Olympics in 2016 and 2021 and England at the Commonwealth Games.

Mo is captain of Gloucester Hartpury, the PWR club that won the Premiership title in 2023 the same year that Mo helped England lift the inaugural WXV Trophy in New Zealand.

Mo’s now back in the England programme with a full-time contract as the team works towards a home World Cup in 2025.

It was fabulous to talk at length with Mo – one of the most popular players in today’s Red Roses squad.

We explore her route into rugby (spoiler alert: she was a high-level netballer) and her rapid progress into national representation and winning a World Cup.

Mo shares her experience of the journey from playing for England as an amateur to today’s fully professional era, the challenge of switching between playing 15s and rugby 7s for England and Team GB and the importance of female coaches in the game.

Mo is incredibly open about how she, and her family, were affected by her surprising exclusion from the Rugby World Cup squad in 2023 and how that decision has gone on to impact her life and her playing career today.

It’s such an exciting time for the game and players like Mo, as she reflects:
“I don't feel like I've ever really achieved my true ability in an England shirt, which is why I'm so excited by this new campaign and new coaches coming in…”

Get your tickets to watch Mo and the Red Roses play in this year’s Women’s Six Nations here: https://www.eticketing.co.uk/rfu/Events?preFilter=23

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Sue Anstiss: 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond. I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery Award. My guest today is Natasha Hunt, known to many as Mo, a much-celebrated international rugby player who's represented her country for over 13 years.

Sue Anstiss: 0:42

Mo was part of the England team that won the World Cup in 2014, won numerous six nations championships and, as a seventh player, has represented Team GB at the Olympics in 2016 and 2021 and England at the Commonwealth Games. Mo is now captain of Gloucester Hartbury, who, in 2023, won the Premiership title, before Mo helped England to lift the inaugural WXV trophy in New Zealand. She is now back in the England program with a full-time contract as a team works towards a home world Cup in 2025. So, Mo, before we start, I do realise that most people in rugby know you as Mo Hunt rather than Natasha Hunt. Can you tell us a bit about how you got that nickname.

Mo Hunt: 1:29

I think a lot of my friends are bored of hearing this story, to be fair. But as soon as I was born, apparently my dad held me and was like isn't she a little Mo? And it just stuck. And so I was just brought up as Mo, like the only time I was at ever Natasha, as if I was in a lot of trouble which wasn't very often with my mum. To be fair, even on the registers at school it was down as Natasha and I got called Mo, so we were just growing up with it really.

Sue Anstiss: 1:52

That's interesting, isn't it? I'd always assumed it was a rugby name and that I was going to ask you whether your family referred to you as Mo too, but it came from there first.

Mo Hunt: 2:00

Yeah, no, it came from there. So, like everyone in my family without doubt will call me Mo. It's quite strange like if I ever get called Natasha, it's taken me a while to actually react to it, because obviously the more you get older and adult life and all that like, sometimes I'll introduce myself so randomly I will be called Natasha or people that don't know me that well and I'm like is something like me? Like I'm really not sure, but yeah, very strange. Yeah, very strange.

Sue Anstiss: 2:24

And how did your journey into the sort of rugby style? How did that?

Mo Hunt: 2:27

begin. So I played a little bit when I was younger. So when I was around 14 for Dry Brook Rugby Club, which is where I was born, grew up, local, brilliant rugby club down there, like proper forest, heart of the forest when is that? In Dry Brook, in the forest of Dean, like where I grew up, yeah, and then played a little bit there like I had a little bit at school. I think we played a tag festival.

Mo Hunt: 2:50

I put Gloucester rugby there's like photos of us in massive shirts with blue and white stripes and stuff. And then netball was always my main sport, like I loved it. I played it four or five times a week poor Mum would like drive me into Gloucester all the time to take me training and stuff. And I just got to the point where I couldn't progress anymore like I was too short, I kept like missing out. I'd be invited to trials for England and stuff but because of my height it would always be, oh, you're too small to play there, whatever. So I wanted a new challenge and my PE teacher got me into rugby and sent me down to Malvern at the time and from there it just kind of took off. So I got into regional trials into England and the 20 trials and selected into that. So it all happened so quickly, like within a year of properly playing, and yeah, I just never really looked back. I loved it when I got involved properly.

Sue Anstiss: 3:38

And I'm assuming you were centre mid-court player for netball where did you play?

Mo Hunt: 3:43

was actually Goal Attack for a long time, Yeah, I was, yeah, I loved shooting, but then obviously the higher up you got, because I like to shoot from quite far out, like I just I just loved it because I used to always play in the garden and stuff, like I've always been super sporty, but obviously the better you are and the further you go, like, the more you get pushed into the centre. So it's, yeah, centre wing attack, wing defence towards the end, but no, I just I really enjoyed it. I loved it.

Sue Anstiss: 4:10

And what was it, as you looked back, that you particularly loved about rugby is that you talked about that kind of rapid progress that you had, but what was it about the sport that really resonated with you?

Mo Hunt: 4:20

I think just the people involved like obviously you've been involved for a long time now as well, but just there's a different breed of people that go into rugby. I think, whether they're coaching, like managers behind the scenes, like any involvement, or whether they're players, like they're just brilliant. I think everyone's values are very aligned, very similar, which really resonates with me like I've been brought from a family of very strong like morals and values, so I really like that aspect of it and just just the camaraderie. Like the girls are amazing, like there's so much fun, there's so much fun to flying about the place, but there's a real discipline element to everything you do and that's something I really enjoy, like that pushing and challenging yourself and yeah, I just loved it from the off. Like I think there's something very special about like putting your body on the line for somebody and then going into battle with somebody. It kind of just creates that bond that you don't even speak about and that's probably the main thing for me really.

Sue Anstiss: 5:13

It is interesting that that difference in the culture and the feel of the people around my sport. So I do really feel that in rugby and especially women's rugby, and it's sometimes hard to articulate that to other people that perhaps aren't as much a part of the sport.

Mo Hunt: 5:27

Yeah, no, massively. I think for me it genuinely comes down to that, like you are willing to run at somebody as hard as you can and also try and stop somebody as hard as you can, and when you look across the line, like especially playing the game, and you're in the changing room with the girls and you know that they would do absolutely everything and they'd just empty themselves to for that team, and for that moment you want to do everything you can yourself and it kind of like spurs you on and drives you on as well, and I think that's how you create that bond and that's how, like, good teams succeed, because you just know it's like that unwritten rule that you'll do everything for everyone. When you go into physical sport, into a contact sport, it's just a different level of like intensity that you have to uphold. So I think we don't talk about it, but obviously when you actually break it down, it is a crazy sport.

Sue Anstiss: 6:12

And your career progressed really rapidly from there. So how soon were you then getting national honours? And I can, I'm on that pathway.

Mo Hunt: 6:21

Yeah, it was pretty crazy, to be fair. So obviously I played a bit when I was younger. So when I was about 14, I think I played a little bit for dry brick, but netball was always my main sport, so I'd like go and play on a Sunday. Like managed to have a run up with my sisters as well, which was epic. But yeah, I got fully immersed in the sport and then within a year I was picked up for the England under 20 trials so I got pulled into super fours.

Mo Hunt: 6:43

It was back in the day I don't know if you know about that but basically, like four teams in England were made up and we used to go and just compete against each other and that was what the England trial was.

Mo Hunt: 6:53

You'd like play rugby, be put into teams of like random people from all over the place and then you just basically go into battle and it was really cool to be fair, but I was only 18 at the time so instead of being put forward for that, I went to England 20 trials instead and then Giselle selected me into that squad as a winger back in the day and then, yeah, I just never really looked back. Like playing for England and like representing my country was always something I wanted to do. I was so sporty growing up like I'd literally do anything and everything like tennis, football, golf and rugby, obviously like anything I could get my hands on. Netball was a big one, and then it was always a driver like I wanted to represent my country. So then when that opportunity came up to to go and trial for it, I was like, right, this is the, this is the sport. Like let's see where we can go with this you mentioned your sisters, so are they sporty too.

Mo Hunt: 7:43

You're sporty as a whole family yeah, so my mom always used to play netball when we were younger. Um, I remember going down and watching her a lot in Lydney when she used to play. Dad used to play rugby. We never got the chance to watch him, to my knowledge. That my memory is terrible, but I don't think we ever got the chance to watch him. But sisters grew up quite sporty as well like not quite the same driving level that I have, but I think that's quite ridiculous. That's on one end of the spectrum, um, but yeah, they were always loving stuff as well, like they're used to playing netball, like they'd always get stuck in at school and stuff and would do after school like Jess, my little sister only stopped playing rugby recently for dry brick, um, when she had a little boy.

Sue Anstiss: 8:21

So yeah, they've always been quite sporty excellent and you mentioned your kind of when you started and playing, but then you were in the World Cup in 2014. You played in the World Cup.

Mo Hunt: 8:33

I got transitioned into Scrum Half by Gary Street, so came into the set up as a winger and then he just saw something in me I think skill set, maybe like handling, probably because of the netball days and decided that he wanted to change me into Scrum Half which was obviously his position as well and just really relished the challenge. Like I was really excited to try something new. Like the fact that somebody's seen something in you that they want to go after. I think it's super cool. So I really jumped in like put everything into it and managed to get on the plane To France for 2014 in that role and play Scrum Half. And yeah, it was awesome.

Mo Hunt: 9:08

Like the group leading into it was amazing. Like we had some. It was sunny, so it was so nice because it was in England. We were training in Vest. I remember being at Sorry, sports Park and just running around with the girls and it was like, yeah, it was just awesome. Like the whole group was class Obviously, went out there. The bond was amazing, had a really cool set up in the hotel which kind of made us closer, and then it just kept going like we were just awesome that tournament and I think a lot can be said about, like, how we were bonded off field and probably why we performed so well on field. But yeah, it was class.

Sue Anstiss: 9:43

And did you ever think, wow, how did I get here from where you've been to so quickly be winning a World Cup?

Mo Hunt: 9:50

as well too. Do you know what? It never really hit me. I think the first time it hit me about everything I've done is when I kind of stepped back and had a little break from the sport. I think that was the first time that you actually have time to reflect, because, as a person like I'm so driven and I'm so focused on what I'm doing and trying to be the best and trying to do the best like for myself, but everyone around me that you don't really ever wait.

Mo Hunt: 10:14

I think quite a lot of athletes that have been at the top of their game for a while is literally like OK, you've achieved something. What's the next job? So, like we've won a World Cup, but the Olympics was around the corner, so it was like, right, well, I won a shot at the Olympics. And, like you never really like stop to consider what the impact is or what you've actually done. You're always just chasing that next high and what can you do next? And what's the next thing I can achieve in my career? That sort of thing.

Mo Hunt: 10:40

So it's not something I've reflected on a lot, to be honest, Like more so since I've got older, actually stepped back and been like wow, OK, like this. I've had a pretty cool career and some of the stuff that I've done has been unbelievable and like to be doing it for so many years. I feel super privileged, especially to see the change in times. Obviously, from where I've come from to where the game is now is like unfathomable. It's crazy the amount that is changed and grown. So, yeah, it's something I like to do now, but not necessarily through my career.

Sue Anstiss: 11:11

It just feel like you've been right at the heart of that change of playing in the kind of very truly amateur to the professional and 2014,. Wasn't it when you first you were part of that group that got the first professional contracts in Women's Rugby, and that is mad to think. It feels like a long time ago, but it's only a decade ago that that actually happened. So can you remember how you felt at the time to be able to then focus on training and playing?

Mo Hunt: 11:35

Yeah, it was. It was incredible. So obviously we just won a World Cup. I remember I had to go back into school because I was a teacher a PE teacher at the time, so a qualified PE teacher and it was a little bit bit of sweet because I just had an awful lot of time off school to go and train for the World Cup because of the amount of training camps we had, and then obviously in the summer, so it wasn't too bad because we didn't have school anyway. But I remember I had to go back in for two weeks, I think it was, and it was like I'm back but I'm not back and I had to just wrap everything up and then I was kind of out of there and it was a bit sad because I absolutely adored the people that I worked with.

Mo Hunt: 12:12

The school was amazing, the kids were incredible and obviously you build that huge bond there, especially with my PE staff, because back then I was training three times a week, I was going to the gym, I was doing all this extra stuff trying to get myself fit for a World Cup but while also planning marking, like doing all of the teacher stuff after school, clubs, everything like that and it was like a really taxing thing and I think if you look right now, you're like, how did I ever do that? But obviously you always just get the job done. It's like being a mum, isn't it? Like you just have to, so you just do it. But yeah, it was crazy.

Mo Hunt: 12:48

And then to actually go down train full time, like we were all put in the same house I think it was a three bed house in Twickenham they are a few owned and there was eight or nine of us in there and it was like the tiniest kitchen we all had to like muck in. I was in the front lounge which was turned into a bedroom. So myself and Kay Wilson, we were teammates sorry, roommates the whole way through our careers because we got kept together in 2011. So, yeah, we were. We were roommates in there as well and we'd stay there Monday to Thursday to train for sevens, I'm pretty sure and then we'd go home and play club on the weekend. So we'd go back on a Thursday night train at club and we'd have to take all the sheets off, wash the sheets, basically empty the room allowed to leave anything there in case people were there over the weekend for the RFU and then come back in like it was mental it was it was such a surreal time, but yeah, it was awesome. It was really really cool.

Sue Anstiss: 13:45

Was there any doubt in your mind about giving up your career as a teacher to take that option, or did you always know immediately you would take the contract and move across?

Mo Hunt: 13:55

No, like no doubt at all. I think there's been a lot of talk obviously in women's sport and stuff about like how much we're paid and all that sort of stuff. And we were moving to London, I was taking a significant pay cut from my teacher role, but it's a dream job. Like never in my lifetime did I think I'd be able to be a full time professional athlete in rugby Like it wasn't a thing. Neither was the chance to go to an Olympic Games Like that wasn't on my radar because, like I was never. I would always have loved to, but I was never good enough at like athletics or something. And when you get into something like that, you know that you that's what you're striving for. So when that opportunity came knocking like this, there's no question about it we were all so excited about the opportunity. I don't think anyone turned down a contract and yeah, it was. It was something that we were all throwing ourselves into as you say so.

Sue Anstiss: 14:42

You then moved across and you were contracted as a as a sevens player ahead of Rio. Can you explain a little bit about the difference between 15s and 7s for those that might not be as familiar with the formats?

Mo Hunt: 14:54

Sevens is crazy. Basically, yeah, so full size pitch and you just have seven people on the pitch instead of 15. Instead of playing over 80 minutes, obviously, for a 15s match, it's played over seven minutes a half, and we used to have 10 minute finals as well. So not only were you like battering yourself for 14 minutes a day, which doesn't sound like a lot, but trust me, you're running at like 90 plus percent of your ability to run, pretty much for the whole seven minutes that you're on the field, or all of the time that you're on the field. So it's super high intensity. You're completely found out with your skill set, like if you can't tackle, then you get absolutely targeted and run out the whole time and step left, right, in centre. That sort of thing like breakdown is very exposed and obviously your skill set, your passing, your ability to run and and fizz the ball across the line, that sort of thing is really exposed as well. So it's kind of like it's like 15s, but another level of it.

Sue Anstiss: 15:51

And you seem to, from the outside anyway transition quite easily between 15 to 7s. You played then in a second World Cup final in 2017 at 15. So they went back to 7s for Commonwealth Games and you won bronze in 2018 and then Tokyo Games too. So is it easy to move between both formats?

Mo Hunt: 16:11

No.

Sue Anstiss: 16:12

I wouldn't have said so no.

Mo Hunt: 16:14

I think positionally it can be different for everyone and obviously my my skill set is pretty much getting to the breakdown and passing.

Mo Hunt: 16:23

So in season, a lot like I'd say 99.9% of my passes will be from the base.

Mo Hunt: 16:30

There's not many where I'm up and running, so that's a very, very different skill set that you need to have to go into 7s. So, yeah, there's like there's so many nuances to it. Is is a real tricky one, and I think for me, that was the reason when we got offered in 2019, I believe the opportunity to do 7s, to stay on that path or to come back to 15s is the reason that I chose to come back to 15s, because I felt that I let the team down a little bit in 2017, that I was not quite as sharp as I wanted to be, like not quite where I wanted to be as a player. So, yeah, a big reason for coming back to 15s was to give it the best shot I could to go and try and win the World Cup again with the girls, because it was something that kind of hung over me a little bit in terms of not feeling like I was at my best and at the races on that day in the final.

Sue Anstiss: 17:19

But do they help each other? You kind of assume what playing one and then playing the other, there must be elements that help each other as well too.

Mo Hunt: 17:26

I think the speed that you have to think in sevens would definitely help my game in 15s, because everything happens so quickly, like if you're in the breakdown, you need to be anticipating and assessing the defences, that sort of thing. So definitely from that respect. But my physical attributes, so the engine that I need for sevens is completely different from the engine that I need for 15s. Obviously, the aerobic base is there for both, but the repeatability that you need to be able to play sevens is definitely something that doesn't really help when I'm coming back to 15s, because I need to be able to sustain that for 80 minutes and you have what would you do in sevens? You'd have like two or three games a day at 14 minutes, so you'd be playing about 36 minutes of rugby. If my maths right, that was quick maths, so it might be terrible, but you know what I mean. So it's a completely different game. It is a completely different game and, yes, there's elements and obviously the girls are incredible in both, but the athletic ability that you need to play sevens is something that I think I never really had fully.

Mo Hunt: 18:37

I just kind of grafted and held on in there, whereas you see someone like a Joe Richardson. What more incredible athlete like Alice Richardson? What more incredible athlete like? The way that they could sustain that level and just the repeatability that they had, it just made them incredible athletes. So I think that's why they're smashing CrossFit out of the park at the minute. But I just don't think I've got that in me. Like it's a real struggle to try and get that. If that makes sense.

Sue Anstiss: 19:04

And if you had detergent freedom and both formats were held in exactly the same regard, same championships, which would you prefer? What would you prefer to play?

Mo Hunt: 19:13

I'm just super fortunate that I've been able to do both Like I love it is. I'll give you more now either. So no, I feel so fortunate that I've had the ability to do both, and to do both at the highest level, and to meet some unbelievable teammates like that 2020-2021 Olympic campaign. Never thought I'd get the opportunity to do that and some of the girls that I came across in there just amazing, like I was so fortunate to become their teammates in that, like Rona Lloyd, I kind of never crossed paths with her originally. She's lovely, yeah, and I genuinely think that she's one of the best humans out there.

Mo Hunt: 19:52

So also the sunshine like seeing the girls go to the buy recently. They're in Sydney at the moment and we're playing in like zero degrees. Like that was a real bonus. Like you got, you got away. You got to play in hot climates, but on the flip side of that, we were training in hail and snow and like trying to play this game where we'd go out into 30 degree heat and try and compete with countries that are used to that when we're training in minus degrees. It was really tough, like, and it was quite taxing at times. Like you'd want every single layer you could, on Sory Sports Park, back pitches and the wind was blowing a gale and then you'd go out to Dubai and it would be unbelievable and like 40 degree with the humid so it was. It was a real tough ask, but I love the tactical element of 15s, like. I think that came into fruition for me when it was COVID and our scrums got taken away, because that, for me, is the real nuance of the game, like where the scrum is what the backfield's doing, how we can attack that, how we can manipulate that backfield defence to be able to hit them somewhere else and like. I really enjoy that.

Mo Hunt: 20:57

And obviously in sevens, anything can happen, like a bounce of a ball and you could have an upset. So when we played in 2018 Rugby World Cup, it was a knockout for the first game and we lost to Ireland in that first game, like on a couple of decisions and a bounce of a ball, and that meant that we couldn't go and compete in the top tier. So the top that we could become was ninth, which I think we achieved. But it's just brutal because you train for four years some of the girls for us it was a couple to go and then get knocked out by like and you can't even come higher than ninth. It's crazy because, like on any other day, we'd probably be better than that team, if that makes sense Whereas in 15s I think you've got time to work it out and you've got time to be able to analyse and try and get on top of the game and get on top of what the refs decided and all that sort of stuff, whilst trying to achieve what your goal is.

Mo Hunt: 21:49

So, like. I genuinely love both. I've been so fortunate to be both. But, yeah, I don't think I've got a sevens body anymore, so it's definitely 15s from now on.

Sue Anstiss: 21:58

In and you joined Gloucester Heartbury in 2019 and also played in Six Nations Championships and you won the Grand Slam there. I just wondered how different it is in playing for your country versus playing for your team in the Premiership. How does it feel for you personally if you had to choose between those?

Mo Hunt: 22:16

Oh, choose between England and Gloucester Heartbury. I'm not going to say that, I'm not going to say how one or the other.

Sue Anstiss: 22:21

But what's the difference that you feel in representing those and playing in those teams?

Mo Hunt: 22:27

Oh, it is hugely different. I think I'm super fortunate. So when I came out of sevens in 2019, I had the opportunity because I decided to go 15. So I had to pick a club and I was gutted because obviously Lichfield, the club that I was associated with, got pulled out of the competition by the RFU when it got restructured into the Terrells Premier 15. So the club that I came from I no longer had the opportunity to go back to.

Mo Hunt: 22:53

So I looked around like I went to Loughborough, I went to Worcester, I went to Bristol and I went to Gloucester all for varying reasons. So I was just trying to work out like make the best decision for me, and I knew that I wanted to coach as well, because I wanted something else alongside the rugby. But when I came up to Gloucester, susie Appleby was the coach. She was my coach in sevens, had a good relationship with her. I went home, saw my grandma and granddad went into Heartbury. There's like my shirt on the wall because I was there for college Ironically in the Netball Academy, not the rugby, yeah. So I just went back then it just felt right, like it just felt a little bit like home, like I knew that it would be super easy for my family to come and watch. And another thing was I really wanted to get on the property ladder. Like that was big for me, because I just hated the fact that I'd wasted so much money renting in London and stuff like that. So there was loads of factors that I considered and, yeah, going to Gloucester was like huge for me. And then, since I've been there, no one's really left Like we've had a few girls come in, like obviously a massive recruitment drive in 2013. But the girls have been there a long time and a lot of them have been there since they started the club and it came into the Tireless Premier 15s and I think it was six years ago now, five or six years ago. So there was just such a nice feeling, like such a nice bond between everyone there and because you've gone through some real tough times, it kind of gels you even more. So, playing for Gloucester I think there's definitely more of that like family feel, like a huge amount of care and admiration for everyone in the setup Not to say that that's not for England, but England's a very elite environment.

Mo Hunt: 24:27

So you go there, you're competing with the best against the best and there's just that. Like we are very fortunate with the player pool we have, it's always on front foot rugby, so as a scrum half, sometimes playing for Gloucester has been really tough because you're trying to work things out and you're on the back foot. You're on the back foot Not the case anymore. That's why we're flying so high, because our forwards are unbelievable. But it was a very different kind of experience. Whereas with England, whenever you play for England, you've got Burner making 40-meter line breaks. You're just sitting pretty behind that trying to fizz the ball out to a 10 who's got an unbelievable skill set and can kick, run, pass and you're just constantly on top of teams. So it's hugely different, but there's the same drive and there's the same want to be the best you can in everything. It comes in different ways, but I think that's the thing that I love about Gloucester and I love about England is both a hugely competitive environment, that you've got some really cool people that are part of.

Sue Anstiss: 25:27

I think that's the difference. I know that Bird was a coach at Gloucester Heartbury too, wasn't she? I was at Laughborough with Bird yeah, it's a long long time ago and I know that you've also, as you said, you went there to coach, and you've coached the Bucks team there to great success as well too. So how important do you think it is that we do see more female coaches and officials in the game?

Mo Hunt: 25:48

Yeah, I think it's massive. I think there's a lot to be said about how a female brain works, in my opinion. I think I've not had a lot of experience with coaching males or coaching guys or anything, so obviously I'm speaking from my experience. I don't know if that's the same from a male perspective, but for me a lot of what we do is about mindset and about feeding the girls to feel confident and to back themselves, because it's almost like the fear of failing that stops and hinders a lot of these youngsters coming through. And that's definitely something that I've got hold of and tried to really go after in my coaching career.

Mo Hunt: 26:27

I think one of my biggest things I always say to them is if you're not making mistakes, then I'm not pushing you hard enough. Like if it's that easy that you don't make a mistake, then you're doing it wrong. Like we're not trying hard enough, we're not throwing the ball around enough, that sort of thing. So it is something that I think is really important, but that's not to say that I don't think some guys get it really right. I think it's a lot easier as a female to kind of look especially like.

Mo Hunt: 26:53

So for myself I'd say I'm quite an empathetic person Like I try to read people and read a room quite well and stuff like that. So if I think someone's struggling, that's something I've always tried to do is just that arm round, like whatever role I'm in, whether I'm just a teammate, whether I'm a coach, whether I'm the co-captain, whatever it is but I think some guys work really hard for that as well, and some male coaches that I've had have been very good in that aspect too. So, yeah, I think it's hugely important, but I also think if people are working hard at it, then that's also commendable as well.

Sue Anstiss: 27:25

We've obviously talked about that huge success that you've had through World Cup, commonwealth Games, lymphic Games, but moving on, I guess, nearer in time, sadly, things didn't progress for you as you'd anticipated for the World Cup in 2023. Are you happy to talk about?

Mo Hunt: 27:39

that a little bit yeah.

Sue Anstiss: 27:40

So I guess from the outside, for a rugby fan like me all, that you were set to go and in camp. So can you tell us a little bit about what happened in your journey there?

Mo Hunt: 27:50

To be honest, I don't really know. Obviously we were training like I felt like I was in good form, obviously got the nod in the first warm-up game and then didn't get another shot. So we had two warm-up games. I had 40 minutes against USA, got pulled off but luckily Pax was on water that day while he pack her and she was like mate, it was a plan sub. It was a plan sub like I've heard them say oh, ok, fine, so haven't messed up too bad. And then we didn't go back into camp. I think we went into camp to prepare the girls for the game against Wales and then I was dropped for that game or rotated, however you want to look at it and so left camp and then that was the last time I was in there. I just remember my phone ringing and then we knew that the phone calls coming between 6.30 and 7. And I went to pick up one of my housemates from Gloucester because she was in a boot and I was like, oh my God, mids is ringing. And even when he was ringing I thought it was just going to be like a bit of a kick up the ass or he was going to say something and then just said like oh, this isn't the news you want. And I was just in shock, to be honest, like I didn't deal with it well at all. I just went underground Like I didn't understand. So I didn't know what to say to anyone, had no words for anyone and I just wanted to hide under a rock Like obviously my whole life, like I love this sport so much, I care so much about rugby and I put so much into it and obviously I commentate, we do the podcast, all of that sort of stuff. So a lot of what I do is involved and invested in the game. Loads of my really really close friends are in the game across different teams and stuff, and I just felt quite empty, like I didn't really know what to do or how to be. So I just shut off to the world, didn't really follow the games at all, like didn't kind of acted as if there wasn't a World Cup going on.

Mo Hunt: 29:34

And probably like the hardest thing for me was my mum actually retired from her job to go and watch. So she was a head teacher of a local primary school. Yeah, she was a head teacher of a local primary school, dad, self-employed, so that was fine. But my auntie, who's like massive supporter as well. Mum and dad really wanted to go out and they were like, well, if you'll pick, like there's no way we're going to miss it. And unfortunately, like governors were, I'm in an aisle about whether to let mum have the time, and so she was like, look, this isn't an automaton, but I'm going to go. And if that means I hand in my notice and that's the decision I have to make, then like, so be it, that's what's going to have to happen. And yeah, they didn't get back to her in time, so she handed in a notice and then so mum, dad and auntie were actually out at the World Cup, as was a lot of my big support system.

Mo Hunt: 30:25

So, yeah, it was tough, it was really tough, I'm not going to lie, but I think it's driven me one to get amongst a lot of the girls. So, naturally, when you're on international camp, the girls that are at home competing in the Prem Cup and holding the fort down are like the real quality club girls, like the ones that have been there the whole time and like I love them to pieces. I know loads of the girls and I'll sit down for a coffee with absolutely anyone on my team, like they're amazing. But I've never I've not had the opportunity to play a lot with a lot of the girls, so that bonding for me was huge, the way that the girls went about it.

Mo Hunt: 31:02

Obviously, having Sarah Beckett come to club as well, it was really nice that I could support her in it because she was going through the same thing I was, but having just moved club and uprooted her support system as well, so there was a lot of real heartache and like I didn't deal with it. Well, I think I shut out from like scars and stunts and people like that as well, which was, I think, tough for them the other side of it competing in a World Cup and just wanting to make sure I was okay. But I just did what I thought was the right thing for me at the time and I can't thank the girls enough. I think it made me so much tighter to a lot of the girls here, so much closer as a unit and, yeah, like it just made me play some of my best rugby. So maybe it was meant to be.

Sue Anstiss: 31:44

It's interesting, isn't it? Like I was going to say, just to give a bit of background to the, to what a shock it was, I think, to the rugby community and I just consider myself just a fan of the game, but it's one of those few times and I remember seeing it on the BBC or something like oh my God, and I remember texting my husband, but it was like it had become a how can this possibly be? And everybody wanted to know how it was. I think that did you sense, that I guess you then, as you say, you kind of almost hit yourself away. But that shock that reverberated across the fan base and how people were so sad, so disappointed, so angry, so the people feeling that on your behalf just couldn't understand how it could be. And it came out ahead of the general announcement as well too, didn't it? So I think that was almost added to the shock of it. It wasn't like you were looking down to see names.

Mo Hunt: 32:28

Yeah, that was the worst for me and I'm not sure how that happened or why it happened, but I just remember I'm going to get emotional, oh no sorry, I didn't, I just remember like no, no, it's fine, it's fine Honestly, it's fine and I've not cried about it in a long time, so it's probably due.

Mo Hunt: 32:46

But no, I just remember Sarah Hunter actually came down to see me. So when the when I got the call from Mids, I text Gaza, text Sons, and then I turn my phone, like obviously text my mum, and turn my phone off because I was like I just knew that the girls would, because it was such a shock for me. And it still is, like I still just don't understand it to this day and like whatever happened, I like I don't, I don't want to have conversations about it. I made that decision when I went back in for the Six Nations. Like there's nothing they can say to me that's going to make me feel better about that decision that was made. So there's no point in opening it up and having a conversation, and whether I get truth or not, like as well, you just don't know. So I just I don't want to cross that bridge. Yeah, so I just text them and then turn my phone off because I just didn't really want to have to deal with any of it. I actually didn't sleep that night because I didn't want to go to sleep and wake up and it'd be something I had to deal with again.

Mo Hunt: 33:41

But I was sat for food with Sarah Hunter and I just I couldn't really eat, like I hadn't really eaten because I was just so sad Like I just kept crying all the time and stuff, and I like I got a meal and I was just about to like try and force them down and then the story dropped. Like I had a couple of miscores from my sister and my mum and they'll ring me once and I'm a bit rubbish on my phone and after they've rung me once like I'll get back to them when I can. But because it was like a few calls, I was like oh, something's not right. So rang my little sister back and was just like you all right? And she was just like are you on your phone? And they're quite, they're quite blunt, Like my family don't really beat around the bush, which I love them for and I was like no, why? And she was just like mate, like it's out, it's out. And I was like what do you mean it's out? And obviously like the story had been leaked.

Mo Hunt: 34:32

But I was kind of prepared for Tuesday, like I knew that a lot of that stuff would have been said about me. Because of how shocked I was, how shocked I knew the girls would be, I wasn't prepared at all for it to come like like that on the Saturday, like I was kind of like bearing my head in my sound, try and be as normal as possible, and yeah, that really hit hard, because I don't think in women's rugby we've ever had something that's gone like kind of that viral and obviously like everything was so nice and everything was so lovely. That was said about me. But I think because I didn't understand and I had no answer to it and I didn't really know how to work through it or what to do about it, because I couldn't change the outcome, like I just I just didn't want to like deal with any of it.

Mo Hunt: 35:16

And then, yeah, my blooming mum. She'd like start emailing me. She found out like some podcasts and stuff and then she'd send it me on email. I'm like mum, I'm avoiding like, I'm off Twitter, I'm off Instagram, like what are you doing, pepper, in my emails. But she just cared so much and she was so sad, like because of how her eye works, but also about the situation, that she was just doing everything she could to make me feel better about it, because obviously everyone was saying such nice things. But yeah, when that broke, that was really really tough.

Sue Anstiss: 35:49

Did you think about stopping all together ever?

Mo Hunt: 35:52

Love me did Part of me did, because so, literally like a week after this had happened, like I've still barely eaten and not really slept because of how sad I was about the whole thing, my S&C was like right, we need to do the 1200 so that we can get your times for your fitness, like for your running. And I was thinking I do all this and like the end game. Obviously clubs are so important to me, but I've always been so driven by playing for my country and by not being selected for like the biggest accolade that you can do and not being able to go and like help the girls try and win that title. I was like what am I doing? Like if I I don't know if I've still got the mentality to push myself this hard if the outcome that and like the reason that I'm doing it and the real drive for playing for my country, representing my country and ultimately like winning the World Cup, isn't going to be achievable because they don't want me as part of that team.

Mo Hunt: 36:46

So, yeah, there were times where I stood on that line, like on the on the tri-line, like have I got this in me?

Mo Hunt: 36:53

But I think, just knowing that like the girls wanted me there.

Mo Hunt: 36:57

I think that was huge and knowing that like people in the squad really cared about what I was doing and cared about me drove me onto it, and then it kind of just flipped. Like one day I was like, nah, like I'm not done, Like I want to prove to you that actually I've got more than this and I don't feel like I've ever really achieved like my true ability in an England shirt which is probably why I'm so excited by this new campaign and new coaches coming in, because one of the biggest things is like take the hand, break off, like let's see what you've got, let's see what you can do, and that's how I want to play the game, Like I want to play faster, want to throw the ball around and try and keep get the fences napping and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I'm super glad that I didn't, like I'm super glad that the fight and the drive of in me is stronger than how sad I was and I've come out the other side of that for sure.

Sue Anstiss: 37:47

And it does feel like. It does feel like I say, I say I'm watching, but it's almost been this masterclass in resilience and proving people wrong that you came back to play and lost to Heartbury. You had the amazing season. I can remember watching it and like I'm sure, like many others, like fuck, it's just played. An amazing, amazing season. And then to go on and win the Premiership last year as well to the first team outside of London to do that too. So what do you remember from that amazing day? I love that they named Kingsholm Greensholm for the day, didn't they as well too, to kind of celebrate the occasion. But what are your memories of that, that special day?

Mo Hunt: 38:25

Limited after the night. We had to be fat, large, occasionally. It was just incredible. It was the cherry on top of the cake from probably my biggest low in my sport and career to one of the biggest highs. Like, obviously, world Cup was incredible.

Mo Hunt: 38:41

But that group was thrown together for like a couple of years and then we went and we achieved that. Obviously, some of those girls were there the whole time, like they'd been there for three World Cups, some girls had just come in that year and it's a very different atmosphere, whereas for us at Gloss, like we'd been the early team for a long time, like we'd been on the end of some really tough results for quite a while. Like, obviously, with that leadership role as well, you take quite a lot of responsibility. Like big shout out to Zoe Ulcroff like co-captain. She's unbelievable. I've learned so much from her and I think that I just really enjoy working with her.

Mo Hunt: 39:15

I think we make a good team, but to be able to go out there and it just felt right, like the fact that it landed at Kingsholm, queensholm for the day, which was Nicole she's another incredible woman in sport. Yeah, it was just awesome, like obviously, to have so many of my family and friends there. The sun was shining. It was a beautiful day. We had about 10,000 there I think it was A lot of that home support cheering on. Like the Chiefs fans were loud as well, so the atmosphere was incredible and just like the whole night was just amazing. We had like a good few days after as well, which was just incredible, and because we did it with that group, that means so so much to me. It was just unbelievable and will stay as one of my like lifetime best memories, for sure.

Sue Anstiss: 40:01

That's so lovely, so lovely to hear. And obviously, after that success of the Premiership, you've been played in the inaugural WXV tournament in New Zealand and then last tournament announced that you've now back into the kind of full time contract set up with England. So how does that feel? Is it a different environment? As you mentioned, there's new coaches coming in. Does it feel like it's a different place as you're stepping back into that now?

Mo Hunt: 40:24

Yeah for sure. Like I think for me it feels safe. Like obviously you've got like one of my best mates, Sarah Hunter. She has been for a long time, so obviously different that she's now in that coaching role, but I think she's been brilliant for the transition. Like she's so close to the girls and to playing that she knows what we want and how we want it and it's been class in my opinion in that you've got Lou who's come in, who gets the like human element. So we had some really nice conversations when she first came in, just about how tough it had been.

Mo Hunt: 40:55

But also, Charlie Hater, like some real honest conversations with me about why I wasn't initially offered a contract at the start, which was hard to hear. But also you just appreciate that honesty because that's all I've ever wanted is like the honest conversation. Or like tell me why or what I need to do to be starting for you or to be playing more minutes, or what you need from me. So to have those real honest conversations at the start means a lot. Like I would do absolutely anything for anyone. Like it's my dream to pledge. You know what I mean, but I need to know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it and that's never changed. And then obviously Deeks has been awesome. Like I've got so much time for him. He's one we don't really speak about a lot, but the girls absolutely love him. He really cares, His mannerisms and everything about him is awesome. Like everyone really resonates with him and the support staff around it as well. Like everyone in that environment is class.

Mo Hunt: 41:49

And then obviously everyone was a bit nervous about Mitch coming in, but he was brilliant. Like we've had some really good conversations. Like one of the first things he said to me was why are you not backing yourself? Like we are committed to you, Just go out there and do it. And that really resonated with me because I've never felt like I've had the backing of like the head coach or like a coach like that so quickly.

Mo Hunt: 42:11

And yeah, I think the whole, the whole setup is brilliant. I've just been in camp now for the last three days and the atmosphere is awesome. We had some youngsters coming in and like they're just throwing themselves into it, they're trying things and like it's just class to be part of. I think this England team has never really reached the heights that it's capable of. Like you, look at the skill set of some of our forwards like they handle an ability ability to run, to tackle and then the silkiness of some of our backs. I don't think that's ever really been unlocked. And it feels like it's going to be unlocked and it feels like we're on this journey and it's just super exciting to be part of. To be honest, Fantastic.

Sue Anstiss: 42:49

I love you to hear and to. We can see it. You can see it from the outside, but it's something to hear from someone that's right in amongst it all. As you mentioned earlier, you've obviously been a commentator and pundit for various games in the last few years and you're co-host of the hugely successful podcast, the Good, the Scouts and the Rugby, which is absolutely one of my favourites. So I can say that, without you know, very happy to promote that on this podcast because it's amazing, an amazing listen. And what's that activity been like? Do you really enjoy that being that side of the media and involved with the media?

Mo Hunt: 43:20

I love it, like I've always really, really enjoyed rugby. I think that's quite clear and quite evident. Like I love the tactical bit of it, like why things happen, how you can try and change that, all of that. So to be paid to talk about it is pretty much dream job, isn't it Like, let alone so obviously playing as well unbelievable dream job to do that. But to also have that element of it as well, I love. I feel very fortunate because I know a lot of people would love to get involved in that.

Mo Hunt: 43:48

But yeah, it's been something that I've worked super hard on. I think I started back in 2012. So I've kind of had like grafted at it for a long time. Yeah, I've done it for a long, long time. It's just a privilege to be bringing people stories. Like I know you think the same, but when you hear people speak and how inspiring and insightful people are in what they do, to be able to sit there listening and to bring people those kind of stories and that kind of insight into everything, it is incredible and would you like to do more in the future?

Sue Anstiss: 44:18

You mentioned coaching the media side. We'd like to play forever, but obviously you can't play forever. But what are you thinking beyond your career?

Mo Hunt: 44:26

Yeah, I think obviously I've got my coach into full back on. So looking at hopefully doing my level four sometime soon, just to be able to give me that next level, in case that's a door only doors that ever open there. But I just really enjoy it, Like I love the coaching side. I really enjoy the mentoring, the commentary, something that I love. I'll definitely stay in the sport. I don't think going back to PE teachings for me now. I think I definitely want to stay within rugby, however that looks. But yeah, I'll definitely be around the game for a long, long time I imagine.

Sue Anstiss: 44:57

Excellent as the media coverage and public recognition. We've seen a big shift in women's rugby across your own career even the last 15 years or so, so what do you hope we might see in terms of the development of the women's game in the next 15 years? What do you kind of hope for there?

Mo Hunt: 45:12

I just hope that we don't have to talk about it Like that. We don't have to make a point of being like, oh, this tournament or springboard and we don't like, let's make sure we get on the back of it Like I hope that it becomes a level that is sustainable across. To get in 58,000 at Twickenham was incredible. I don't even got another game there Stand Alone. I'd love that to start being the norm. We play some really exciting, unbelievable rugby and also our fan base is class. We have a very different fan base, I think, to the men and I love that. Let's celebrate that.

Mo Hunt: 45:43

The fact that it's young girls, boys, families that come and it's accessible, that's huge for me. I think that's class. So yeah, I just hope that it's more and more accessible. There's more and more games shown. I love the fact that it's on TNT and it's the same as across the guys and like Sarah being on it and stuff like that is class. But we also don't get to watch all of the games now. So let's get more and more games on. Let's make sure that people can actually see the product that we're putting on the field, because we work so hard to be able to produce it, and I think the levels only getting better and better. So, yeah, it's a super exciting time to be part of it, but let's make sure that we don't have to keep saying, oh, let's keep getting on the back of this, like, let's have the back of this be a normal and just keep pushing for more.

Sue Anstiss: 46:31

Excellent. And like it's April 20th, isn't it? The game is ticking in this year, so I put a little link for tickets in the show notes as well too, should people want to come and watch England Island at Tickin'em. And just finally, obviously we've talked a lot about rugby, but what are your interests outside of the game? Do you have interests outside of the game? So what did you do to switch off from the game Candlelit?

Mo Hunt: 46:51

bath and the glass of red. That is my go-to. I really enjoy spending time with my family. So I've got a young niece and two young nephews and obviously live quite close to my nephews. My niece is a bit further away but comes back quite a lot so I love going to see them. Like seeing grandma and granddad, like parents, that sort of thing. Yeah, coffee cake, all of that, all of the classic things that happen when you're an athlete. I think I really enjoy that. And just spending time with the girls, like going and hanging out on a normal level, socialising with everyone, that sort of thing is what I really enjoy. I do like baking, but I never actually get time to do that. But yeah, that sort of thing, just switch off and relax and not talk. Rugby is a big one for me.

Sue Anstiss: 47:44

Thank you so much, timo, for taking the time to talk to me and for being so open and honest about her extraordinary career. If you enjoyed the podcast, there are over 170 episodes featuring conversations with women's sport trailblazers that are all free to listen to on podcast platforms or on our website at fearlesswomencouk. Previous England rugby players I've spoken to on the podcast include Sarah Hunter, sue Day, maggie Alfonzi, shauna Brown, emma Mitchell and Jodie Ansley. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. The whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of Series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book.

Sue Anstiss: 48:42

Thanks again to Sport England for backing the game changes through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker at What Goes On Media, who does such an incredible job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannon. You can find the game changes on all podcast platforms. Do follow us so you don't miss out on future episodes, and if you have a moment to leave a rating or a review. It would be fantastic, as it really does help us to reach new audiences. Do come and say hello on social media or you'll find me on LinkedIn, instagram and Twitter @ Sueanstiss, The Game Changers. Fearless Women in Sport.