Sue Redfern: Breaking boundaries for cricket umpires

“The utopia of officiating should be that anybody, regardless of gender, can umpire any game”.

Sue Redfern is a much-celebrated cricket umpire and former England player.  Sue became the youngest ever female to play cricket for England when she started her career at just 16 and went on to represent her country for the next five years, including playing in the 1997 World Cup in India. Having retired from the game and moved away from cricket, Sue came back to work at the ECB and, in 2012, decided to give umpiring a go. 

Her impact over the following decade has been quite remarkable, and she's now a member of the professional umpire team for domestic cricket in England. She's also an international development panel umpire for the International Cricket Council and has umpired various international matches, including five World Cups. 

In 2018, Sue was awarded an MBE for her services to women's cricket, and last year, she became the first female to umpire in a men's first-class cricket match in England. 

I was fascinated to know what it’s like to be centre stage at some of the biggest cricket events in the world and how it’s possible to retain your focus in a sport that can last hours. 

We discuss Sue’s playing career and where we’ve seen the biggest changes in the women’s game over the past two decades as she reflects on what it was like to umpire a Women’s World Cup in 2017, having played in a World Cup 20 years before.

Sue talks candidly about how she deals with nerves before the biggest games and shares her thoughts on the disparity in payment for elite female umpires and what needs to change.

It’s exciting to learn more about the huge growth in women’s cricket for those playing and officiating from a woman who’s been such a trailblazer in the sport.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Sue Anstiss: 0:03

Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is a podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast through a national lottery award. My guest today is cricket umpire and former England player, Sue Redfern.

Sue Anstiss: 0:39

Sue became the youngest ever female to play cricket for England when she started her career at just 16 and went on to represent her country for the next five years, including playing in the 1997 World Cup in India. Being retired from the game and moved away from cricket, sue came back to work at the ECB and, in 2012, decided to give umpiring a go. Her impact over the following decade has been quite remarkable and she's now a member of the professional umpire team for domestic cricket in England. She's also an international development panel umpire for the International Cricket Council and has umpired various international matches, including five World Cups. In 2018, she was awarded an MBE for her services to women's cricket and last year became the first female to umpire in a men's first class cricket match in England. Sue, you're clearly now very well known for breaking barriers as a cricket umpire, but I'd like to start, if I can, with your playing career and how you initially found cricket.

Sue Redfern: 1:44

Yeah, thanks Sue. Yeah, I've been very lucky in my umpiring career, but I first got into cricket playing when I was a youngster. My family my father was a cricketer, played second 11 crickets and my brother, who's two years older than me, also played cricket. So it was inevitable I was going to get pulled in, sucked into it. It wasn't actually my first sport as a child, but eventually I saw the light and, yeah, took up cricket playing and it went from there really.

Sue Anstiss: 2:12

And did you see other girls playing?

Sue Redfern: 2:14

At the time. No, I didn't see other girls playing. It was very much. I played in my boys club in my brother's club for a local club in Nottingham shire called Eastwood Town and I went through their age group boys teams before there was a women's team which Mum and Dad identified over in Derbyshire. So I was very much playing boys cricket. I was very lucky that I was playing representative county cricket in the boys age groups and then at 13 Mum and Dad found a women's cricket club but there was no junior girls cricket. So again there was a big age group for me so I was playing alongside adults and there was a big age gap when I was playing senior women's cricket.

Sue Anstiss: 2:53

And you mentioned that you've played other sports as well. I believe you were rather good at badminton, so can I tell us about that and that opportunity that you had to play in the US?

Sue Redfern: 3:03

Yes, so I was very lucky that I played badminton locally and I played a little bit of county badminton and I entered some tournaments and at a tournament which I won when I was under 16 I was offered a scholarship to America to play scholarship badminton and try and progress badminton, but I chose to stay at home. I think I would have been a little bit homesick at that point. I didn't want to leave Mum and Dad and fly all the way to America and be on my own in America. So that was the end of my badminton. But it was my main sport growing up and it's a fantastic sport. I love it still. I enjoy watching it as well.

Sue Anstiss: 3:40

I sense a huge amount of humility here in talking to you already in the whole, I was just playing a little bit of badminton and then they invited me off to have a scholarship in the US.

Sue Redfern: 3:50

Yeah, I suppose. So it was all a bit of a surprise to me, to be honest, because I did enjoy my badminton. I particularly enjoyed playing singles and played a little bit of doubles as well with a really great partner. But yeah, it all came as very much as a surprise. Just very lucky really that I was sighted by a scout and they offered that opportunity.

Sue Anstiss: 4:12

You then got your call up for England in terms of cricket, when you were just 16, so how did that feel to be so young in that squad.

Sue Redfern: 4:21

Yes, it was quite a surprise that I was called up to the England winter training squad. The year before in 1993 I was actually watching the Women's World Cup final at Lords and watching all my heroes play and win that final against New Zealand and then the following winter here I was just 16 years old and actually taking part in the winter training alongside these amazing players who just recently won the World Cup. So, yeah, I couldn't believe it. To be perfectly honest, sue, that I was selected. Obviously I'd been alongside some of those players in my county team and played against all of the players in the county championship, which was a week-long tournament in those days where we played like Yorkshire and the other strong teams like the West Midlands as well. So, yeah, it was very much a surprise when I got into the winter training and then I went on my first tour to Ireland in the European Championship. So, yeah, I was very lucky.

Sue Anstiss: 5:20

Was that your first England debut? Was then Ireland, or when was your first proper big tour?

Sue Redfern: 5:25

Yeah, so my first tour was Ireland in the European Championship in 1995. We went over and played that's where I made my debut for One Day Internationals. And then, when I came back from that in July August, there was an opportunity for a winter tour, which was India, and I was lucky to be selected. I came back from Ireland injured, so it was a race against time to recover from an injury and ankle injury I had, but I managed to make the plane and have a seven week tour which involved Test Match Cricket where I made my debut in Test Matches and ODIs. So yeah, that was my first. I was just under 18 at that point, so I was very young and yeah, I was on tour for seven weeks to India.

Sue Anstiss: 6:09

And that must have been the most incredible experience just to be away from home, but in such a different culture and with those women who you've kind of been watching and, I imagine, not idealising as England players in the past.

Sue Redfern: 6:22

Yeah, very much. So I knew maybe four or five of the squad who played for my own county. So you know they were familiar with me. They'd know me since I was about 13 years old. But for the large part this was a new experience for me. I hadn't been around them overly socially. But for seven weeks in India they become your extended family, which is one of the parts about cricket is it takes so long. Sometimes you're away for a long period of time and they are your team, but they're also, they become your family when you're on tour. They're the people that you trust, the people that you rely on and the people that look after you. So you know, we've all got our own kind of like personalities and we all kind of like levitate towards people who we're more friendly with. But everybody was respectful and looked after each other and there were some laughs on tour and there were some you know challenges on tour as well. Seven weeks in India was a difficult tour back in the 1990s and we worked together as a team really.

Sue Anstiss: 7:22

And can you paint a bit of a picture of what it was like to represent your country as a woman playing cricket in the 90s and how much that's changed for today's players that might be heading out on tour?

Sue Redfern: 7:33

Yeah, there's so much that's changed in women's cricket over the last couple of decades. I mean, you know, I played in the 1990s. We were mostly funded at this point. Previously it would have been fully funded by the player themselves. I mean, we were lucky that we were. Everything was covered with the exception of maybe a little bit of clothing.

Sue Redfern: 7:50

But we weren't professional, we were amateur cricketers. So we all had different jobs. For me personally, I had three casual jobs to try and get a bit of an income outside of cricket playing so I could take time off to come and play. But you know, we trained regular, just like a professional team would. We trained as much as we could. We didn't have that specialist support. I think we had one coach with us, a manager and a physiotherapist when we went over in 1995. Whereas now, obviously there's a lot of specialisms, a lot of different people who are supporting the teams and obviously for us we did play Test Match cricket and that was the main bulk of the series. So we were away for a long amount of time because of, obviously, test Match cricket takes four days for each game. So yeah, it looks very different to us. It was the selection side of it, the professionalism, the individual support. It's totally different to how it was, I suppose to when we were touring in the 90s.

Sue Anstiss: 8:49

And there's obviously been much discussion recently around women's sports clothing. Even in the last couple of years and I know last year, finally, international hockey made changes to allow players to play in shorts as well as sports and skirts. Obviously, you started playing cricket in a skirt at that time, so can you really sort of think back to how those changes were received at the time?

Sue Redfern: 9:10

Yeah, so there was a big debate in the back in late 1990s about whether or not the game should continue in skirts or it would move to trousers. There was a very big split between the traditionalists and obviously the practical side as well, and for me personally, I really enjoyed playing in a skirt, but I saw the practicality and the danger of being able to be more dynamic and more athletic sliding and diving on surfaces. It did make sense to move to trousers, but I enjoyed my skirt playing days, I suppose.

Sue Anstiss: 9:50

And looking back on your cricketing career, your playing career, what are some of those most memorable moments for you?

Sue Redfern: 9:57

Yeah, I think making my ODI debut in Ireland and also making my test debut in India are obviously big highlights for me. We had a challenging period in the 1990s. Australia very similar to now really are very strong, are very dominant. India had a very dominant, strong side. So as a team after the World Cup victory in 1993, it was probably a rebuilding period. There were a lot of games there which were quite challenging to be part of. It was quite a difficult period. But for me personally I'm very proud particularly of the 97 series where I was player of the series, had a particularly good year with the ball and in my last year playing for England in 1999, I became quite dominant with the bats as well and was instrumental, I think, in helping the team win an ODI at Trent Bridge against India. I came up the order, more up the order than what I should have to bat and, yeah, I kind of hopefully changed the momentum of the game. So I'm particularly proud of those games.

Sue Anstiss: 11:04

Fantastic. You stopped playing cricket for England in 2000 and stepped away from the sport, but did you always plan to return in some way?

Sue Redfern: 11:12

No. So when I finished playing for England I continued playing in the domestic structure but I needed to really kind of think about a career and think about financially trying to support myself rather than rely on my parents. So I kind of drifted away from the game. I had no intent at that point to ever make this a career or think about it being a career For me personally. There wasn't really anything there which you could make a career from In those days. There was a little bit of coaching, but not a huge amount, and there weren't that many opportunities for women in the sport. So you know, for me personally I went off and pursued other things and it was only through chance that one of the clubs I joined had somebody who was working for ECB at the time and, yeah, kind of got me involved and got me back involved in the organisation.

Sue Anstiss: 12:03

And you then worked, as they say, at the ECB. So what were you doing there? What was your role day to day?

Sue Redfern: 12:09

Yeah, so when I first started working for ECB back in 2005, my job was to look after women's and girls' cricket in a particular region so the East and West Midlands trying to develop new clubs for girls' cricket and look after competitions and support the women's and girls' game and grow the game as much as possible. So that's where I started within ECB.

Sue Anstiss: 12:31

And when did you decide to become an umpire or to take that route?

Sue Redfern: 12:36

So I finished playing in 2012,. I decided that cricket playing was just too painful. I'd spend about a week recovering from each game. So I decided to hang up my boots and no longer play cricket. But I wanted to stay involved in a recreational perspective. I was obviously working in cricket, but it was really important to me that I wanted to stay involved from a volunteer perspective. So I thought about coaching but didn't think that was really my skill set, thought about scoring, but that didn't really appeal.

Sue Redfern: 13:07

So I was left with umpiring and it was something my dad had done previously. He umpired in the local leagues. So I picked up the phone to my dad and just said you know, look, I'm thinking about umpiring. What do you think? And he said give it a go. So I went along to in the winter of 2012, early 2013,. I went along to my local county association, warwickshire, and did the 13 week course then, which taught me all the laws of cricket, and I immediately learned that I actually didn't understand cricket at all and didn't know the laws as a player. And then, in the summer of 2013, I actually started umpiring, which was one of the most scariest experiences. I was very nervous in my first game. But yeah, took up umpiring from there and it's sort of spiralled from there really and I've been given opportunities from there.

Sue Anstiss: 14:01

It's interesting what you say, isn't it about the whole not really understanding all the laws as a player? So my daughters have all played netball and I know one of the things they do for young players is to encourage them all to officiate and to maybe think about coaching and almost to get a whistle in their hands so that they both add value to the game and also learn more around the rules and regulations too. I wonder if that's something cricket has done or might think to do in the future for young women playing the sport.

Sue Redfern: 14:30

Yeah, there's definitely more awareness now of trying to get existing players into different roles, getting them to give them a go, particularly at a young age. So the Dynamo's cricket program that ECB run I know that they do alongside the actual play in has introduced the scoring and the umpiring element as well, and there are young officials as well, which is fantastic. I'm part of a program where I'm supporting the professional women's teams in terms of just a bit more of a laws awareness, a regulations awareness. So we're trying to work together and trying to develop relationships as we move through to the start of the season to help build rapport, but to also raise awareness and understanding of the laws, because it's something I feel quite passionate about that if I'd have known the laws better as a player, I would have been able to use those laws and regulations better and I might have been a better cricketer, and I do feel quite strongly about that.

Sue Anstiss: 15:28

And did you feel welcomed as a female coming into that umpiring space when you first started out in 2012?

Sue Redfern: 15:35

Yeah, there was definitely a mixed reactions. First of all, for a long time and in some circles it's still assumed that I'm there as a scorer. Obviously there's a lot of history associated with maybe the perception of an official and cricketer is a very male dominated perception and that's something that the more we're visible, the more females are visible in the role, the better that becomes. And yeah, certainly there were mixed emotions and there were mixed reactions. People often ask me if I was treated any differently on the field being a female and it's hard to tell really whether or not actually I was being tested as a new umpire or I was being tested because I was female. But the one thing that I kind of do understand and I am aware of is there's probably an assumed knowledge if you're male, people just assume that you know the game, whereas as a female they probably don't assume you know the game. Obviously there's a little bit more education and a little bit more raising awareness to do really within the game.

Sue Anstiss: 16:38

And do you think being a woman has helped you in cases as an umpire, especially umpiring the men's game?

Sue Redfern: 16:46

Yeah, they're a very different umpire and men's and women's cricket is very different.

Sue Redfern: 16:50

But in terms of being a female in both environments, you know, I think it's a real positive because it just changes. You know, it changes that perception on the field and it changes the dynamics sometimes on the field. Maybe it changes over time, but people are a little bit more respectful and they're a little bit more aware that there's a female on the pitch when I'm in men's cricket which you know I don't really expect, but it's a kind of like counter positive almost in a way. So it does feel like the behaviour is a little bit better sometimes. So I do feel very fortunate there. But like I say, you know, the environments are very different and the skill sets in some ways can be different when you're umpiring men's cricket and umpiring women's cricket. So obviously for me personally I want to continue to progress umpiring in both formats, in the men's game and the women's game and obviously, you know, for me it's important I keep developing those skills, the softer skills, not just the technical skills as well. So it's a really important kind of aspect of the game.

Sue Anstiss: 17:47

I was going to ask you that, in terms of that, umpires and referees having different stars and the way they interact with players, I think we're both quite big fans of Nigel Owens, the recent retired rugby referee, so I wonder what kind of umpire are you? Would you describe yourself as an, and is your style changing as you get more experience over time?

Sue Redfern: 18:07

Yeah, I think you know every game is a learning curve for me. I'm relatively new. In some environments, particularly in the men's multi-day environment, I'm relatively new and you learn a lot about yourself, you learn about the game, you learn about the reactions of players and you know just those softer skills are the biggest things which you continue to learn and I hope I'm learning and I hope I'm adapting my style accordingly.

Sue Redfern: 18:29

One of the big changes I made in 2019 was somebody pointed out to me a good colleague of mine pointed out to me that I wasn't bringing my personality into my officiating. I was trying to be somebody else and that was a really big change for me in terms of just being able to be yourself on field and back yourself and just be your natural self and I think then it kind of like takes out all of the pressure because you're not having to overthink certain things. So, you know, I like I'm a naturally talkative person, I'm a naturally smiley person, I like to have a little bit of fun and if I get that opportunity on the field and if I can smile on the field, it makes me feel more comfortable and hopefully my style, you know, kind of like comes across and you know, hopefully I'm more approachable to the players and you know, hopefully I can make better decisions because I'm more relaxed.

Sue Anstiss: 19:18

I spoke to Sean Macielus, the professional football referee for the podcast, and she talked about how her job gives her the best seat in the house at football games. Is that how you feel?

Sue Redfern: 19:30

Yep, if only there was a seat I could sit on rather than stand for eight hours. But yeah, definitely, definitely, it's the best seat in the house in terms of watching some amazing crickets, some amazing cricketers, and just watching a game which you know, has shaped me throughout my whole life. You know, I've been involved in cricket since I was nine years old, so you know, to see it adapt and to see it transform and to see where the women's game is now in particular, for me is a really special thing, and to see some young talent coming through and some really exciting stuff. You know things, I was very much when I was batting. When I was a player, I was very much traditional, I was, I liked to hit it in certain areas, whereas now, you know, players hit it 360 and I'm not entirely sure how they get there, but it's fascinating to watch and I do have the best seat in the house. So, yeah, absolutely, it's an enjoyable place to be.

Sue Anstiss: 20:23

Talking of football, we do see officials, especially female officials, that take quite a lot of abuse. I wonder is that something that you've experienced at all, or do we? It's not really like that in cricket. Is it very different to other sports?

Sue Redfern: 20:36

Yeah, I think whenever you bring sport into it, it's a passionate thing, isn't it? So you know, there's always going to be emotions, there's always going to be opinions on your decisions, and I think it's how you deal with that, how you react to that and whether or not escalates or not. I have been unfortunate that I've experienced some physical abuse on a cricket pitch many, many years ago in the recreational game. I was fully supported by my league at that point and it was fully dealt with. But it does remind you that you know there needs to be more work, more awareness done around, kind of like managing that and dealing with the small minority of people who unfortunately go a little bit too far.

Sue Anstiss: 21:19

Yeah, that's awful, isn't it we don't think about. It's funny how we have these perceptions of different sports, but you almost don't think about that. In cricket, don't you think there's a lot of emotions very lovely and charming, and not. You know that aggression and vitriol.

Sue Redfern: 21:31

We do say some people definitely have white line fever, so once they step over the boundary they become different personalities. So we do say that exists within cricket sometimes.

Sue Anstiss: 21:42

Yeah, absolutely. And how much has DRS changed the way you umpire? Has it made you better at your role, do you feel, and I wonder also, how do you improve? Is that helping you to kind of improve and develop your skills?

Sue Redfern: 21:54

Yeah. So I consider myself to be in a very fortunate position that most of my games are now on video. A lot of my games are DRS, which recreational cricket umpires don't have that opportunity in some cases. Video technology is brilliant because it means that we can review and look through how we, how our body posture is, how our decision making is. We can look at some of our decisions, we can look at some scenarios.

Sue Redfern: 22:20

Drs gives you as best as possible, you know, definitive answer to whether or not you're making errors or you're not making errors. So you can identify trends, you can identify areas where you need to develop on. So for me personally, it's great. In a game in particular, it's great.

Sue Redfern: 22:37

I like to know whether I'm right or wrong with the technology, even if it has or has not been reviewed, simply because I can use it as a marker and I can learn things from the decision making I've currently done in the game and hopefully make my decision making better throughout the game. But then at the end of the game as well, it's really important to review that decision making and, like I say, you can identify those trends, the odd decision the reality is as officials, the sooner you accept that you are going to make errors and how you deal with those errors is really important. We're just human, just like the players, make mistakes. But if I'm making the same mistake time and time again, that's something I can improve on. There's something wrong there, so I have to change how I'm doing things, and that's where DRS can help me with that. Video technology can help me with that. So for me personally, I think it's a really positive thing.

Sue Anstiss: 23:28

And what do you think it is that makes a great umpire?

Sue Redfern: 23:33

When I look at the people who I look up to as umpiring, I think I look at the ability to be very calm in all situations and to be able to react in a positive but consistent way. So for me, a great umpire is somebody who's very composed, very calm, who can deal with all situations and who can obviously diffuse situations, as well as players. So that player rapport, that communication and also as well that consistency, understanding of laws, regulations and being able to apply it at the right time. For me, that's the people that I look up to, who study the game, who then actually deliver in the game, as well as good communicators with both colleagues and players. So they're definitely the people that I look up to.

Sue Anstiss: 24:23

And I mentioned in the introduction about how you've umpired so many big games and world cups, and one of them was the 2017 Women's World Cup and how did that feel, having played in it yourself 20 years earlier, in 1997? I wonder what your reflections were around being back at a women's world cup, but in such different circumstances.

Sue Redfern: 24:44

Yeah, I mean, I'm so lucky to be given that opportunity second time round in a different role. If I'm being blunt and honest, was I ready? Was I experienced enough? An umpire Possibly not.

Sue Redfern: 24:56

It was a very steep learning curve. There were colleagues around in that particular tournament who were really supportive and helpful. It was a tournament where we didn't have DRS and didn't have video in each of the games, so there was a lot of learning to be done in there as well. But, yeah, I feel immensely proud that I've had the opportunity and I know that the work I've been doing, particularly since 2015 and beyond. I've worked hard to be given those opportunities and hopefully I can learn from each experience. But the 2017, obviously being a first world cup as an umpire, was a special thing. It, being in England, incredibly special to be part of that and, just like any fan at the end of the tournament, when my time was done at the end of the group stages, I become an England fan again, you know, and to see England do what they did in the final in 2017 was just incredible. It was a very special. I was in the stands watching the game just like any other supporter of England really.

Sue Anstiss: 25:55

Fabulous, I was there. It was amazing, amazing atmosphere, wasn't it?

Sue Redfern: 25:59

Unbelievable experience. Unbelievable experience.

Sue Anstiss: 26:03

I mentioned Nigel Owens earlier because I know I've heard you mentioned elsewhere that he admires his kind of style and the way that he deals with issues when he's playing. But I did interview him. I was lucky to interview him at the event once and he talked about how he often feels physically sick before those big games, like huge nerves, and I imagine there's pressure for you in the big games but also that extra pressure of knowing you're being watched often as the first woman to do something. So I wonder first of all do you get nervous before big matches and, if you do, how you deal with that?

Sue Redfern: 26:36

Yeah, get very nervous on every game I do.

Sue Redfern: 26:39

I do feel physically sick and there are occasions where I actually physically I'm shaking before a game and I like to just get my voice heard.

Sue Redfern: 26:50

So I like to call play or like to say something in the game, just to get into the game, because I just, you know, kind of get so nervous and so absorbed with you know those nerves and I've worked with with a sports psychologist over the last few years is to kind of like put those nerves into a positive way and how to deal with them, how to recognise that if I am under pressure in a game or I start to get nervous, I can do things where basically it can calm me down and it can distract me and it can bring me back into the moment, because part of the officiating is really not thinking about the past or not thinking about the future. You've got to be in the moment or you're going to continue to make errors. So one of the biggest things for me is off field is to kind of like, you know, work as hard as possible to get some techniques to really stay in the moment and just really deal with those nerves.

Sue Anstiss: 27:39

And it's hugely pressured, isn't it? I was thinking, even in preparing to talk to you, but those kind of moments when you've got to make really quick or what could be controversial decisions on the field, what that's going to techniques then to tune out what's around you, and also that pressure to remain focused for such a long time, to remain in the moment, because I can imagine I'd be drifting away and looking at what's going on elsewhere within the game itself.

Sue Redfern: 28:05

Yeah, so we talk a lot in cricket most of the formats you do have a lot of time to overthink things, so you do have to stay in the moment and you do have to do things that keep you in the moment.

Sue Redfern: 28:16

But, at the same time as well, you can't concentrate for eight hours just full on concentration, so you have to learn to switch up, switch down. So we talk a lot, like players, about switching up and switching down, when to do intense focus, when not to focus and when to look. And what you're looking at and you know part of that is about just you know, as I mentioned earlier is about being me. It's just about bringing my own personality onto the field, because you can't fake eight hours of a personality, because at some point there's going to be some breaking points. So you've got to be yourself and you've got to behave in your way to hopefully be the best you can be on the field. And, yeah, eight hours is a long time, concentration wise. So, and then, obviously, if you make errors, even if it's perceived or known errors, what's important is you stay in that moment and you get yourself back to the next ball, because that's the most important thing, what's happening right now. So it is important that you practice that and you have techniques to do that.

Sue Anstiss: 29:14

Does it frustrate you when you're being celebrated as the first woman for unparrying what might be lower level men's games, say in the county championship, when you've already un-pired women's World Cups, international World Cups and so on?

Sue Redfern: 29:29

Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of like debate really and thought process from my perspective. What I've achieved in the women's game I'm immensely proud of and you know the level and the standard international cricket I've been very fortunate to be involved in a Commonwealth Games final and also World Cup final. Now is TV Empire and semi-finals on field for different tournaments. So you know that's massive and the crowds are massive and the women's game is ever developing and you know, in terms of the skill sets, in terms of the qualities and the empire, it's exactly the same as un-piring any other game. But you know that's a really big achievement which I'm immensely proud of.

Sue Redfern: 30:12

In relation to the men's game, I think what's really important and it's understanding what my role is in that game, because it is something that you know the population isn't used to seeing female umpires, female officials in those environments and is getting better now with the rugby and the football and other sports that are moving into this area faster sometimes than cricket.

Sue Redfern: 30:35

And what's really important is I know I've got a role that you know I'm very fortunate to be given this position, very privileged, and it's really important that that visibility is there in the men's game. So I get that. You know, for the large proportion of sports fans they've not seen this before and it's maybe a big thing. But for me personally it is because it's a new environment and it's an elite environment, just like the women's game. But for me personally it has its own different priority. For me and it is important that you know, I get that there's that awareness around, kind of like in that visibility. But in terms of the skill sets, you know, like I said earlier, umpiring the women's game in some ways is harder than umpiring in men's environments. They have their own challenges in the men's game in terms of how to umpire those environments, but for me personally, for different reasons, they're equally as challenging.

Sue Anstiss: 31:32

And I was going to say how lovely it was that Billie Jean King celebrated your groundbreaking role in men's county cricket in a post on Twitter last September. So how did that feel? I remember being thinking, oh my God, that's fabulous.

Sue Redfern: 31:43

at the time, yeah, it's not very often so I'm speechless, but what a legend she is. And for her to pick up something I'm doing, yeah, just speechless, just blown away, to be honest.

Sue Anstiss: 31:56

A couple of years ago you became a full time umpire, so one of the 34 employed by the CB, which is fantastic news but also slightly disappointing that you are the only woman amongst those individuals. So I just wonder what the numbers are generally female umpires across cricket right now and do you feel it is kind of changing and we're moving in the right direction?

Sue Redfern: 32:19

Yeah, you know I would like to see the growth of more female officials. More I would like more in the game. I think what I've seen over the last five or six years in particular accelerated over the last few years with the introduction of the women's professional game, having a women's pathway that is trying to support the growth of more female officials. Your likes of Anna Harris coming through that program, jasmine Naim and Sophie McKellen making a test debut as well. You know that's great and what I am seeing is there is definitely a raised awareness and there are more females umpiring.

Sue Redfern: 32:57

But we need to accelerate that. We need more opportunities and I know that the ECB have implemented a new umpiring course which looks at introduction to umpiring which hopefully is more appealing for different sections of the community who don't have as much experience of cricket playing as maybe historically what was probably people perceived they would need before they took up umpiring. So hopefully we can make it easier and more accessible for more females and more umpires, just in general, to take up umpiring. But I've definitely seen the opportunities changing the International Cricket Council as well. They're really positive with women's growth in both match referee roles and umpiring roles and they've been incredibly supportive as to have the ECB with the women's pathway, like I say, over those last three or four years.

Sue Anstiss: 33:46

It's good to see and good to hear, as you say, similar conversations going on in rugby and cricket and other such sports and whether there's a need for a female-only pathway and whether you can have success in that route or actually you can keep getting pushed back into the men's pathway to have success before you succeed in the female sector too. But I guess we need more of those female games taking place to umpire.

Sue Redfern: 34:09

Yeah, I think we absolutely the utopia of officiating should be that anybody, regardless of gender, can on fire any game.

Sue Redfern: 34:18

That's the end goal and I think that's really important that you know we look at that and it becomes normal that men on fire women, women on fire men. It becomes normal thing. But in the interim, you know, maybe we need to be a bit more positive action to try and encourage as many females as possible, particularly in the female women's environment, and then transfer into the men's environment as well. So you know, for me personally, when I was on firing in the recreational game, it was a given that I to progress, I had to on fire men's cricket, whereas now that's not the case and that's a really important change to encourage more females to get involved in the game. Definitely, definitely the utopia would be to have it's regardless of the gender. You just on fire, the level which you're capable of on firing out and the skillsets are there that you on fire. You've got the right skill sets for the men's game, you've got the right skill sets for the women's game and if you, if you good enough, then you should just do whichever game is suited.

Sue Anstiss: 35:17

Nothing surprises me much in women's sport these days, but I was genuinely shocked last year when I read that the umpires were paid three times more for the men's hundred games than the women's, and the umpire three I think for the women's final was a thousand pound where the men's was two thousand five hundred, and obviously this impacts women far more than the men because, as you've said, we talked about those contracts and more of those men are on the full time contracts to what we are seeing similar issues I know in in sports that will be in cricket. So I do wonder, without putting you on the spot on that specific issue, but if you were in charge of the entire program, what changes could we be making? Do you think they've obviously got a pathway, but Are there any things you'd love to come have given you the opportunity? What any? Any things you particularly like to change?

Sue Redfern: 36:04

Yeah, I think what's important is we recognize how quickly women's cricket is growing and how fast pace that growth is and what opportunity that you know exist with the commercial side of the women's game. For me personally, like I say you know, there's no difference in my opinion. It's just my personal opinion. You know I'm an umpire that the game is different, slightly different in terms of the skill sets needed, but it's still elite, professional sport. So the utopia is absolutely there shouldn't be any difference in that Parity and it's important that we move towards that and the ICC recently have announced that that's exactly what they're going to do. They're going to move towards that pay parity, which is fantastic and it's recognized that. Ultimately, you know, as an umpire I have certain roles that I have to do and they're exactly the same in the men's game and in the women's game. There's no difference there and that's really important that we we continue to move forward as the games progress and the elitism progresses within the games itself.

Sue Anstiss: 37:08

If a young woman told you today that she'd like to be a cricket umpire in the future, what sort of advice would you be giving to her?

Sue Redfern: 37:15

Yep, probably three pieces of advice. I might get this wrong I'm not very good at counting, which is not great for cricket umpiring, but my three pieces of ice would be first of all, find yourself people who will help you and will, you know, show you how to umpire and learn from those people. It's also, then, about enjoying yourself. You know that that's the biggest thing really is just enjoy it. Things will happen if you enjoy it and you surround yourself with the right people and, ultimately then, if you work on the right skills.

Sue Redfern: 37:46

So you know, for me personally as an as an official, one thing that's an absolute given that's expected of you as an official is that you know the regulations and the laws, you know their things that you can do, which aren't relevant on the on field at the time, you can do in the winter and you can work towards in the winter. So you know if you work hard and study and train and understand your field craft, if you enjoy it and if you also learn from others. Because ultimately, as a cricket umpire, I've not I've not introduced anything different to what previous umpires have done. I've just used what previous umpires of use, what are right for me and my style. So that's all through learning from my colleagues.

Sue Anstiss: 38:30

Lovely and finally, why your goals and aspirations looking ahead, is there still much more that you want to go on to achieve in your career as an umpire?

Sue Redfern: 38:40

Yeah, absolutely I want to. Being full time now as a professional umpire gives me the opportunity to be the best version of me I can be. I can really focus my time on either recovering, resting or preparing to be a better umpire. So, you know, for me, absolutely my aspiration is to consolidate what, what I've achieved so far, to recognize and you know I should really celebrate what I've achieved but, you know, to consolidate that and to keep performing in those environments but ultimately to be given the opportunity to, to work in new environments. So in new, you know, obviously in different pathways and in higher level matches in terms of the men's game, obviously the women's game. It's consolidation at the highest level and making sure I can be the best version of me I can be. So I'm always going to have aspirations.

Sue Redfern: 39:34

For me personally, I want to play and officiate multi-day cricket more. For me, that's my most liked version of cricket. I love test match cricket, I love multi-day cricket. It's just a different dynamic. I'm very traditional in that outlook. So, yeah, for me, that's my aspiration is to do that consolidation, but that learning in new environments as well.

Sue Anstiss: 40:02

I followed Sue's career for a long time. What a pleasure it was to finally speak to her in person. If you enjoyed the podcast, there are over 160 episodes featuring trailblazing women in sport and they're all free to listen to on most podcast platforms or on our website at fearless women. Dot co dot UK. Previous cricketing guests include Claire Connor and Ebony Rainford Brent.

Sue Anstiss: 40:28

The whole of my book game on the unstoppable rise of women's sport is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book. The website is also where you can find out more about the women's sport collective, which is our free, inclusive community for all women working in sport. We now have over six and a half thousand members from 89 countries who meet online and in person events and benefit from a very engaged LinkedIn group, regular newsletters, regional hubs and opportunities to attend key industry events.

Sue Anstiss: 41:08

Thank you once again to sport England, who back the game changes through a national lottery award, and to Sam Walker at what goes on media, who does such a great job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my brilliant colleague at fearless women, kate Cannon. Do follow us so you don't miss out on future episodes and if you have a moment to leave a lovely five star rating or review, that would be great, as it really does help us to reach new audiences. Come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on LinkedIn, instagram and Twitter. At Sue and Stis, the game changes. Fearless women in sport.