This episode was originally released as part of Series 3 on April 7, 2020.
Widely regarded as one of the greatest-ever female players, Kelly Smith MBE is England women’s record goal scorer and four-time Women’s Premier League winner with Arsenal Women.
Kelly talks openly about how tough it was playing football as youngster and being kicked off two teams for being a girl, how England is now the best place for any young girl wanting to play professional football and why she feels it’s so important to now talk openly about her past struggles with alcohol to encourage others to open up and talk more openly about mental health.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
This episode was originally released as part of Series 3 on April 7, 2020.
Widely regarded as one of the greatest-ever female players, Kelly Smith MBE is England women’s record goal scorer and four-time Women’s Premier League winner with Arsenal Women.
Kelly talks openly about how tough it was playing football as youngster and being kicked off two teams for being a girl, how England is now the best place for any young girl wanting to play professional football and why she feels it’s so important to now talk openly about her past struggles with alcohol to encourage others to open up and talk more openly about mental health.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Hello, I'm Sue Anstos, the host of the Game Changers, with a quick message before this episode. As we've had thousands of new listeners in 2023, we thought we'd take this small break between series 15 and 16 to share some of our back catalogue. We've loved listening back to these earlier episodes and hope that you also enjoy hearing from these incredible leaders in women's sport. And while I'm here, don't forget that the whole of my book Game On the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport is also free to listen to. In series 13 of the podcast, every episode is me reading a chapter of the book. Now it's time for the Game Changers. Hello and welcome to the Game Changers podcast. I'm Sue Anstos, a founding trustee of the Women's Sport Trust and CEO of Promote, one of the UK's leading sports communications agencies. I am delighted to say that this series of the Game Changers is supported by Barclays and will focus on fearless women in football, reinforcing Barclays huge commitment to the beautiful game. In 2019, the bank announced the biggest ever sponsorship of women's sport in the UK, as the Barclays FA Women's Super League became Europe's first fully professional women's football league. A huge amount of their investment also went into establishing the girls football school partnerships with the aim of ensuring that all girls in England have equal access to football in schools and giving girls the same opportunities in football as boys is certainly something that's close to the hearts of all the fearless women I've talked to for this series.
Speaker 1:In this episode, you'll hear from the football legend that is Kelly Smith, mbe. Kelly is widely regarded as one of the world's greatest ever female players. Kelly scored a record 46 goals for England in 117 internationals before retiring after a 20-year career in 2015. Claim for Arsenal, kelly won the league title six times and the FA Cup five times. She played in three European Championships and two World Cups and represented Team GB at London 2012. Kelly also had a career in the US and in 2008 was awarded an MBE for her services to women's football. Kelly invited me to meet her in her beautiful home in North London, where I also got to meet Coda, her Boston Terrier, who sat happily with us throughout the interview. I started by asking Kelly if she could take me back to her life growing up in Watford and her earliest memories of playing football.
Speaker 2:Probably from the age of about six or seven, I was just in my back garden juggling the ball by myself, kicking it against the garage and enjoying myself with the football With my brother. In our front room we'd put the couches together and pretend that they were goals. A few times we'd break ornaments and my mum would get mad. So we weren't allowed a ball, so we'd use a tennis ball, and then more ornaments would get broken, so we'd actually end up using some socks that we'd wrapped up. So yeah, no, it was probably from around that age and I just loved having the ball at my feet.
Speaker 2:My brother played for Gaston Boys a few years after that and I wanted to play on his team. Obviously I was two years older than him, but I wasn't allowed because I was a girl. So I'd always go and watch him play and train over the local park and I'd collect the balls when the ball went down the hill and I'd dribble it back up and try and get seen by the coaches by just impressing them with my dribbling skills back up. I was hoping that one of them would ask me to come and play Were there other girls playing.
Speaker 1:Did you play with other girls at all at that time? Football?
Speaker 2:No, I was the only girl. In my whole school Most of the girls would be off doing hopscotch and jump rope and stuff like that, and every time the bell would ring for playtime. I was with the boys the only girl jumpers down for goal posts and just playing until the bell rung and then we have to go back in for class and as soon as school was over we were back out again on the playground and I'd actually come home just when it was starting to get dark for dinner, and then I couldn't wait to get back to school again to play football.
Speaker 1:That's interesting, isn't it? Because we talk a lot about that whole. If you can't see it, you can't be it, but you didn't really see anyone. Have you ever wondered why it was? You think that you had that passion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I never really had a female football role model because it wasn't really the thing to do back then. I didn't know that England had a women's football team. It was never on TV, it was never in the papers, but it was just something that I was really kind of comfortable with and good at and just wanted to do it every single day, and even when I was at school I would kick a stone home, all the way to my front door. From the moment I left school I would kick a stone down the pavement and just work on kicking it.
Speaker 2:It was just inbreding me from a very young age.
Speaker 1:I believe you were kicked off not one but two boys' teams for V&Girl. Why was that at the time?
Speaker 2:I played for Gaston Boys. I eventually got the call to go and play.
Speaker 1:The scouts saw you coming up the hill.
Speaker 2:I think my dad had a word with the coach of the upper age group, so I started playing with them and made loads of friends, which I still have today. I was just I'm a bit of a tomboy back then. I had quite short hair and looked like a boy, and word got out that there was this really good lad on the team scoring loads of goals. And it become a problem when the opposition's parents found out that I was a girl. You know they'd start shouting some nasty stuff at me on the sidelines. And, yeah, they said that they weren't going to field a team against me and my team because I was the wrong sex and that it was a boys sport and that I shouldn't be playing. I should be going and playing netball or hockey or something like that. So my dad sat me down and said look, you can't play anymore, we'll find you another team.
Speaker 2:And I was devastated because you know, I'm only eight or nine at this time and just wanted to do something that I was passionate about and good at, and being told that I couldn't do it was so destroying. So we found another team in the same town, heron's FC. Same thing happened again. I'd be scoring lots of goals per game. And then it was never my teammates or the boys I was playing against, it was the parents of the opposition that had a problem with it. I think they were a little bit embarrassed by, yeah, trounced, and a little bit made fun of by me taking the ball around them and scoring numerous goals.
Speaker 1:That's shocking really. What do you think about it? I say it must have been so devastating at the time, but did it change your attitude to the game? Did you think about going to play netball or other sports?
Speaker 2:No, not really. I think that kind of fuelled the fire in my belly kind of thing, because I didn't want anybody else to tell me that I couldn't do something that I was really good at and loved. I didn't understand it as a kid. You wouldn't. When you're being told that you can't do, this Doesn't seem right, even now, does it? No?
Speaker 1:so, yeah, I think that hunger and that desire to prove people wrong started from then really, I've seen that fabulous dads and daughters campaign with SSC a couple years ago and that supportive relationship who had had so clear? So was he a big influence in that, starting out of your career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, massively. He's always been my number one fan and advocate and followed me all over the world seeing me play in China and the tournaments that I've played in it was at the Olympics most every England home game. He would make not so much the away games, but yeah, he's always been there taking me to training and driven me up and down the country in tournaments. So, yeah, he's my number one fan and I love him so much for doing that, because if he wouldn't have done that then I probably wouldn't have reached the heights that I had.
Speaker 1:I love that element also of you and him in the car and that time talking and analysing. I think that's so important, isn't it? As parents of children that are playing sport? It's not just being on the sidelines, it's the valuable time that you get to share together.
Speaker 2:Yeah obviously the car journeys up and down the country. We talk, we chat, we connect. He would never really judge me and my football performance and he would just be supportive and encouraging, whereas a lot of parents now are kind of like quite aggressive on the sidelines and hard on their children. He was never really like that with me, don't get me wrong. He'd tell me when I did wrong or good in a positive way. But yeah, he was always very, very supportive. And you know my mother also has never really loved football or liked football. But she was supportive in a different way in terms of washing the kit and having the dinner ready on a Sunday afternoon when we come in. She hated coming to the games when it was cold. She didn't like to see me get fouled or injured, so I was quite lucky that I had two parents that were there for me and dinner ready when you got home.
Speaker 1:That's all good. It's very important, isn't it? And you've obviously dedicated so much time as a girl to football, so do you ever feel that you missed out? Or did you feel you missed out as a teenager on other stuff, when you were training so hard?
Speaker 2:I missed out on like loads of birthday parties, social events, family events, weddings, you know, as I started taking it more seriously because I realised that I couldn't be out partying and doing that kind of thing, because I really wanted to focus on myself, getting them right around the sleep and in bed on time and waking up and feeling fresh. But I wouldn't change it for the world because I love my career. 20 odd years I got the chance to travel the world, obviously played in America professionally, played for England, travelled, played in two World Cups, for European Championships and Olympics. And looking back, now a few parties.
Speaker 2:Now I get that, those sacrifices that you made all those years ago. I can get that now because football is a short career and I wanted to throw my whole being into it, to be ready and focused, and I've got those parties and celebrations and weddings now, because I'm still young enough to do that and I'm at home now and retired.
Speaker 1:Excellent, and you were incredibly young. I've got teenage daughters now, just 16 when you went off to the US. How did that come about?
Speaker 2:I was playing in the Watford Football Festival, which is a tournament just close to my house, and we were playing against an American girl side in the final and I was playing for a team called Wembley at the time and I got noticed by a scout that was watching the game.
Speaker 2:And the scout got talking to my father on the sidelines and said your daughter's really good and would she be interested in pursuing a soccer scholarship out in America? And at that point in my being I was studying a BTEC sports degree for two years and not really knowing where my career was going women's football in this country I was only training two nights a week and I wanted to be training more and really focus on being a professional, and that couldn't have happened in England. So I was fortunate enough that time ins were right. But dad and myself sat down with the scout after and, you know, mapped out, you know put my, give my contact details out there and a few universities got in contact and I kind of pursued it that way, just via the phone, and then they flew me out to the university to have a look and yeah, it was all done pretty much soon after, you know, after a year of negotiations and getting me over there.
Speaker 1:Had it been on your radar the opportunity for scholarships at the time? Were you aware that other girls were?
Speaker 2:going out there. Yeah, I was aware of it because it was kind of like for me that was, you know, more like a professional setting because you're training every day whilst going to university and getting a degree, but you're training, you know, five, six days a week, whereas, as I said, in England we were only training two nights a week and it was it wasn't very popular at the time. So for me to get this opportunity, I jumped it. I was scared and, yeah, just really scared, because I was taking myself out of my comfort zone and taking myself to a country that I knew nothing about and a coach that I'd built up a kind of relationship with over the phone but didn't know anybody, and just thrown myself into that situation. But I was following a dream because for me that was a being a professional athlete training every day. There was no professional league there, but off the back of me going to university, the professional league started in 2001. So I had a dream that I couldn't see, but it happened. When I was out there it started to happen.
Speaker 1:It must have been I said quite overwhelming to have gone to New Jersey at 16, a lot to adjust to what we've talked about in your fabulous autobiography, the difference in the attitude of the game in the US then in the 90s to the UK and a difference in perhaps the fitness levels and so on of players. Do you think that still exists today?
Speaker 2:No, I think it's changed whole heartedly for 360 in terms of professionalism. I took myself to the US because I was unhappy with the way the game was developing in this country. And now I look how all the players now are on centralized contracts. You're getting paid to play. All the players are focused full time professionals in the league. It's just come full circle. And now when youngsters come to me and say, should I go to America on a soccer scholarship, I'm like well, you don't need to now. If you want to be a professional in this country, this is probably the best league in the world now, so you don't need to go to America like I did. You can stay here and if your dreams and ambitions are to play for England, play in the FAWSL, because it's a fantastically very competitive and everything's there for you now.
Speaker 1:Excellent. That's such good news, isn't it? And you've certainly handed across your career. Your first year of injuries, I think it's better to say I guess can you share how that feels at the time. So for non-athletes like me, you get injured and that's a bit of a bummer, but actually for you it's not. As a professional athlete, that's so much more so how does it feel when you are at the peak of your fitness and elite player?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very hard to deal with. Any player that's injured for a long period of time will tell you that it's very self-isolating, because you're obviously used to training with the team every day on the pitch, seeing them in the changing rooms, and then all of a sudden you're in a cast or you've had surgery and you're on crutches and you're unable to move and do certain things. You're just housebound for a few weeks and then you're in the rehab room by yourself. You're not out with the team, you see them going out and you want to be doing that and it's a very lonely place to be. So it's important that players in this day and age are able to speak to a sports psychologist just to offload what they're thinking and they're feeling, because it is all natural thoughts of just feeling sad and not poor me.
Speaker 1:But it is hard to deal with because you can't do something that you have paid and love to do, and then, I guess, without the endorphins that sport and physical activity brings to you also, I found it very hard watching the team because I had to be out there as soon as your rehab was done.
Speaker 2:then you'd be out watching the team perform and that was like hammering you into the ground even more and then when you pull yourself away from it, then you're isolating yourself from the players. When you're in it and you're watching them, it's hard to take and it's hurtful. So it's important that you actually communicate and speak to someone about how you're feeling, which I didn't do at the time and that's why I got into my problems.
Speaker 1:I was going to move on to that. That's okay. So you've been really open which is fantastic about your struggles with alcohol when you were in the States. Can you just talk through how that difficult relationship began and I guess it's through injury really that started. That is it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I just felt like I lost my identity because I couldn't play anymore and I was quite I wasn't the most confident person off the football pitch.
Speaker 2:I communicated when I had the ball at my feet and was playing, so when I couldn't communicate on the pitch, I just felt like I was nothing and injured and self excluding myself. It just was a lonely place and alcohol made me feel better and I would kind of drink on a daily basis after my rehab sessions just to numb the pain that I was feeling and forget about the fact that I couldn't play football and that, yeah, that's kind of where it started. And then I had injury after injury. As soon as I get back from my first injury, another one would hit and it wouldn't be like a small muscle tear or something like that. That would be a couple of weeks. It would be like a long layoff again and I felt like I was just getting myself back and playing fit and healthy and then, bang, another injury would happen. I was right back to where I was when that first injury happened, just really low, and pulled myself away again.
Speaker 1:And away from home, and away from family and comforts as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and wasn't really speaking with my family that much when I was out there, because the time difference and Didn't have face time then no, not at all. Yeah, it was like we'd set a certain time on a Sunday to chat and then, when I wasn't feeling that well, I didn't want to talk. So I was even excluding myself and pulling myself away from my family and they didn't really know what was going on with me because I'm so far away. So I just kind of spiralled a little bit.
Speaker 1:And you've talked about that. You spent time at the sporting chance clinic, which is set up, obviously, by Arsenal and England captain Tony Adams. What was that experience like? In a? Obviously positively, we helped you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that was a second stint. I was actually in the priory for a few weeks before that and then didn't really complete the whole program. I pulled myself out of there. And then, yeah, tony Adams, it was more athlete related rehab, where you sit down on one-on-one with a counsellor and you talk about your demons and how you're feeling, and there was yoga sessions, gym sessions. It was just kind of getting you back on track and I still have rapport with Tony and people at the clinic now.
Speaker 1:I think addiction seems to be such a huge issue for people who have played sport at elite level, and not just alcohol. You know drugs, but gambling as well, and it feels like it's a bit more prevalent in football. Do you think that is the case in terms of professional footballers and so on, post career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know why it is. It's, you know, because you play at such a high level for so long and you get the buzz and the feeling, and then you know when that's taken away or you can't do that anymore. You've kind of looking for something else somewhere else. And when you get that through gambling or that buzz, then if you have that addictive personality like I do, then you get yourself in problems.
Speaker 1:And do you feel now people are more able to talk about those insecurities and how the mental health issue that they might have post game or around injury?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think in this day and age now it's important that we do talk about mental health. I think it's more acceptable in this day and age now. I think it's important that the Sport Enchants Clinic. All the football clubs know about it and they've done a lot of work within the clubs to promote themselves and if you are struggling, you know the phone numbers there or the emails there to get in contact with them. I like I did an appearance the other day with Prince William for the mind charity in terms of mental health and talking and opening up, and it's really prevalent in men, especially suicide. I'm very passionate about it because I've had my struggles in the past, so I will really want to be talking about it and that it's okay to talk. It helps, whereas when I was going through my problems I just shut down and didn't you know it was weak to talk, it was weak to have a problem, but it's the reverse of that. If everyone has problems, everyone's human.
Speaker 1:I think it's as good as it is as a woman, as a female athlete as well as I think the men are talking about it and there's a lot of support around that, but it's been great to see you happy to step forward and talk about it too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's important that you talk, especially, you know I have a platform or profile from my playing days that you know I could have just pretended that everything was okay, and I started to do that the early part of my career. When I do interviews, they say how did you deal with your injury? And I've just brushed under the carpet, not really feeling comfortable talking about my addiction and how I really did deal with my injuries. And then, when I got a little bit older, I thought I need to be honest. It's hurting me to lie and I want to help other people have a really positive impact. Yeah, exactly so.
Speaker 1:I've looked back at lots of your interviews and your goals in preparing talking to you and it does feel, like you mentioned earlier, you almost have this different personality on the pitch to off the pitch. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say I'm kind of Jekyll and Hyde. When I was playing, as soon as I stepped on that pitch I was just, yeah, just shoulders back proud whether it be a Frasnore England and just really wanted to win and do everything I could to help my team in that situation. And I would kind of probably get into a few too many scraps in my day, but I was just so passionate about winning and performing and trying to get my teammates up for it. And then when I stepped off the pitch I was really quite not that person, quite shy, quite kept myself to myself and a little bit reserved. So when I was Kelly Smith the footballer, I was really confident. When I was Kelly Smith off the pitch, I was quite quiet.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I love the story of you hiding in the bathroom months rather than being there to make an acceptance speech at an award. And yet you know years on your studio pundit for Fox during the World Cup and BT Sport and Sky and so on. So how have you made that change? I guess what changed that must have taken something for you to put yourself out there.
Speaker 2:I think it's just growing up. You know, having a family, being comfortable within my own skin, yeah, just putting yourself in situations where you're not comfortable. I remember that day as clear as that time in America. I was just so shy. The thought of getting up and speaking in front of this whole banquet and accepting this award. I just felt like I could not do it. I froze and as soon as I knew that my name was going to be called, I was out the door. But now, yeah, I've come. You know, now I don't mind doing it. I did a speech the other day for the England youth team and I've just it's just talking about your experiences now and just being comfortable with who you are and do you feel the world's changed a lot in terms of female pundits?
Speaker 1:Obviously more commentators and pundits for both the men's and the women's games as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, massively over the past. I don't know, four or five years I've seen it. I think it's great to see females on there talking about the women's game and the men's game, especially the men's game, because it get more credibility about it, because there's male pundits and there's male coaches in the women's game, so why can't we transfer our skills into the men's game? We've got just as much experience playing football at tournaments and more so than some of the commentators.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Some of the men's pundits haven't played in half as many tournaments. As some of you know, my colleagues, such as anyola, alex Scott, rachel Brown, sue Smith, you know they've played in many, many tournaments across the number of years. So yeah it's. I think it's great to see, and I think it's also good that young boys and girls see female role models talking about football on TV.
Speaker 1:It's great, good, good to hear, and amongst your amazing football achievements, you also played. You mentioned earlier London 2012. So I guess, how did it, being part of an Olympic Games, compare to other championships?
Speaker 2:It was. I didn't know what to expect because the opportunity had never been there for the GB side. It was just the fact that it was in London that we was allowed this once off Great Britain side. So it was kind of put together all kind of last minute. But yeah, it was fantastic just to be in the athletes village it's something that you'd never experienced before and to see Usain Bolt and Mo.
Speaker 2:Farah, just walking about, yeah, in the big dinner hall, different athletes just going off and walking to their events. It was just unreal because when you're playing international football, you're so far removed from all that kind of thing. You're just in a hotel by yourself, with your team, on the training pitch and then back in and you just focus there for that one game, whereas this, this, was just a whole different experience, mixing with different athletes and going. You were allowed to go and watch other events. You know that would never really happen. When you're in tournament football, in a World Cup, you'll just be focused in your team hotel, recovering, eating the right foods, watching, you know, video of the team or how you can just perform and be better. But this the Olympics was just a whole different ballgame in terms of, yeah, just experiencing different things and being relaxed and having the freedom to go and out and watch other things.
Speaker 1:And in terms of games, because you almost kicked off the Olympics in terms of the first game at Cardiff. That was the first.
Speaker 2:We actually missed the opening ceremony. We didn't get a chance to be in that because we had to be in Cardiff. It was weird because we were wearing a different kit. You know the blue was a blue and red kit, so it was just a different feeling about it and we had obviously different nationalities Kim Lyttle from Scotland, james Ross Ify from Scotland. So it was just different but really, really enjoyable.
Speaker 1:And the Brazil game at Wembley and obviously we've broken some of those records. Now about the time to have that many people come into watch women's football in the UK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 75,000 at Wembley. You know you remember walking out at Wembley. For me it's always been the best stadium that I've ever played, in terms of what it means to be from England and play at the national stadium and the grass and just the seats everything about.
Speaker 2:It is just phenomenal. You walk out and you're just like wow, and then to see all the people there, you know, nearly a full house. I remember we scored quite early and, yeah, the nerves were settled and it was just built up because Marta was one of the big names at the time, yeah, and we obviously won the game but then got knocked out in the quarterfinals against Canada. It wasn't meant to be.
Speaker 1:But fantastic experience, and we've talked a lot about how sport builds resilience over time, and it certainly seemed like something you've got in spades over time. So, having overcome so many injuries and challenges, did you think about giving up during your career? Were there times when you thought this is it, I need to stop now, or did you always know you were gonna keep on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there were times when I was really low and depressed and sad. You know, two knee surgeries, two broken legs, three ligaments ripped off my ankle. I think after each injury it just makes you stronger and more hungry to get back and prove people wrong, because after you know a serious injury like that, people start doubting you and you hear that and it just adds fire in your belly and makes you think I wanna come back fit or faster and stronger and prove people wrong. And I always knew that I could come back from an injury because I had that positive mindset in terms of pushing myself to be back. But yeah, there were times when I wanted to quit, when I was really low, but I didn't, and that's what I'm most proud of, because there were some really dark times.
Speaker 2:But yeah, my resilience really shone through in that I'm not gonna lie. There were times when I just wanted to say enough, now I need to focus on a different career. But there was just something in me you have a couple of days at rehab where it'd be really tough and really hard and emotional and then the next day you'd feel really good and you'd see progress. So that was those days where you see progress but really uplifting, and I use those more than the negative days to push me through Excellent and you retired in 2017?
Speaker 1:2015,. It was just before the World Cup that obviously it's always a tough decision, but was it a particularly tough decision, or did it just feel like the right time for you there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just felt like the right time. I had an injury just before that and I wanted to come back from that. I tore those three ligaments off my ankle bone and I knew I wasn't done. Then I still knew I had a lot to give and I knew I could get back from that. So I managed to play for Arsenal for that. One season won the FA Cup and for me that was just the final goodbye, because it was at Wembley and that was. I had so much drive and energy to perform in that game and, lucky enough, we won the trophy. And then that season I knew it in the back of my mind. I wanted to hang my boots up because I wanted to start a family too and my age was pushing on and my body clock was ticking and I felt like I'd done everything in my career. I retired from England to focus on that. One year left playing at Arsenal. And, yeah, I was lucky enough that as soon as I retired I got pregnant straight away.
Speaker 1:So I was quite lucky, and it was on your terms as well, wasn't it? I guess that's the thing. Psychologically. It helps you. Not in control, you had made that decision rather than it being.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I was fortunate enough that, like you're right, I got to choose when I retired. Some players, some athletes don't. They have to retire through injury or whatever. So yeah, I was lucky enough that it was all on my terms and I had that final say.
Speaker 1:Going on to start a family. It's kind of fabulous next stage of your life. But what was the hardest part? Have you missed elements of giving up playing competitively? What's the bits that you miss, moe?
Speaker 2:I miss seeing all my teammates on a daily basis, having the banter in the changing rooms and going away on the team bus and connecting with everyone there, and I miss putting the shirt on and playing on a Sunday. They're the main bits, but I really the two kids now. I don't get chance to miss it too much, but when I see games on TV, especially the England games, I think I would like to do that again, obviously.
Speaker 1:Do you miss the ball at your feet? Do you miss the physical feeling of playing football?
Speaker 2:I don't right now, especially the last two years, but when I'd play in a charity game, I would think like that, like I played in Switzerland for a FIFA Legends game a couple of years back and, yeah, I trained a little bit for it and then when I was on that pitch I was like, oh my God, I want to come back and I want to come out of retirement and do that.
Speaker 2:but do you know what? I paid 60 minutes and then for a week later I couldn't actually move my knee swelled up, my ankle swelled, my hamstrings it hurt to sit on the toilet. Yeah, when I was playing for those 60 minutes I was like I'm coming back, I'm doing it, but for a week literally I was in bits, so there's no way I could.
Speaker 1:And do you think it has been done now to help female footballers to prepare for that retirement life after football?
Speaker 2:No, I don't think there is. Maybe that's a gap in the market. I think it's very difficult for a number of players when they've dedicated their whole life to playing football and then you don't know how to be after, because you're not that footballer anymore, that identity that you have.
Speaker 1:And almost professionalism almost makes it harder and that becomes all absorbing. You are able just to have that as your career. Many more women will be able to do that in the future, but they're not juggling studying or another career alongside playing.
Speaker 2:I think it's important that the last couple of years that you come into the end that you start looking and assessing and getting those coaching qualifications or whatever interests that you have in the afterlife of football. But it is kind of a worrying time when you don't have those qualifications and all you've done is play football. You kind of start thinking what am I going to do next? But yeah, there's a few players that have had problems coming to the end.
Speaker 1:You seem incredibly modest about your achievements, but how does it feel when people talk about you as being a trailblazer for the women's game?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got a little bit embarrassed by it, if I'm honest, because you just feel like you're just normal and just had a great career. But there's a number of us, not just me and my generation. There's Faye White, casey Stoney, Rachel Yankee, and even players that come before me Hope Powell, mo Mali.
Speaker 2:I can list a load of other females that have helped progress the women's game along the way and made it where it is today, and I think that's important that the youngsters know that the way the game is right now it's not been like that forever. We had to fight for so much to get paid, to have better pitches, to have better changing rooms, and obviously now St George's Park is there for all the senior side, for the England side, and we didn't have that. We were training on really crappy pitches. I try and make it known that the women's game is in a fantastic place now and it's going to reach more, better heights, but it hasn't been like that for a number of years. So for us to help that game along the way, I feel quite proud to be named as a trailblazer, as you say.
Speaker 1:Excellent, and before you have the children you were coaching at Arsenal, so is that something you'd like to return to?
Speaker 2:Right now You're heads above the words. Yeah, I'm just literally raising these two little rug rats that I have on a daily basis has all my focus, all my attention. It's not to say that I won't get back into coaching, but right now, the next few years, I'm just going to focus on them until they're at school and then see what options are out there. I would like to get back eventually. Enjoy the coaching. Yeah, I wouldn't say it comes naturally to me. I think football, I mean the ball's at your feet. I was loving it and enjoying my career so much. But I have to really practice and get the hours coaching, because it's a difficult thing to do. I'm not going to lie, managing a team and a group of players, but I have to be fully committed to it, Like I was as a player. I just throw everything into it and right now I can't do that. But, yeah, never say never.
Speaker 1:And at the height of your career, I think you're only about 25 grand a year or so, almost a fraction of what some of the male professional players are doing in a week. How did that make you feel at the time?
Speaker 2:It never really bothered me. I never really took that as a negative. I think the way the game was.
Speaker 1:You had something almost progressing.
Speaker 2:It was like small, little movements within the game. A lot of my teammates before that were losing money to play for England and club football. We're only getting paid minimum wage just to play. So yeah, when I was making that amount of money, I was just pleased to be earning the salary and living off of that, because a lot of my other teammates were struggling. I wasn't struggling, fortunately.
Speaker 1:And do you think there'll come a time when women are commanding similar salaries to the male professional players?
Speaker 2:What the highest end I'm not sure about that.
Speaker 2:I think little improvements each year. I think it's great that now the whole league in this country is full-time professional. That's a massive progression because when I was playing it was only a couple of teams that professional and getting paid, so the parity within the league wasn't very fair. Now the competition's there. A lot of the top international players want to come over and perform in this league. They're realizing that it's very competitive and they see that's great and that's where America used to be. All the top international players used to go over to the States. Now they come into England. There's so many nationalities now in the FAWSL and all the you know the spectators get to see top-level players within our country.
Speaker 1:Another element to the men's game that you wouldn't want to see, replicating the women's game as it grows and develops.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, don't worry, start. Yeah. No, all the troubles along with that right now, that's a big topic. No, I just like the way the women's game is. It's very pure. There's no real diving or antics to try and get people sent off. I think there's way too much of that in the men's game and I don't see the women's game going that way. I love the fact that the women's players spend time with the fans after and engage them and take photographs and autographs and communicate with them after and build that rapport. I love that within the women's game. I don't see that at all in the men's game. As soon as they the final whistle, they're off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks. It's really good to hear and hopefully that can continue, and I know that you're an ambassador with Barclays and working with them around the FA Schools partnership. What was that involved and why you decided to get involved with that?
Speaker 2:I just think it's important that we get into schools and try and get as many girls interested in football as possible, because that is the drop-off rate when, whether it's senior school or primary school, they lose interest. So, if I can get in and take some sessions and share my story, barclays have put a lot of money into the game to help promote it and that's just one of the small aspects of me being an ambassador and going into these schools and encouraging girls to play and that there is a career in it now, not just if they want to play football. There's that you can be a referee, you can be a coach, you can be a journalist Anything you can within the football game now a pundit or, as a good few years ago, the opportunities probably weren't there.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love the idea of it. Actually, it's not just about playing and whatever. There are so many different options.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's good for self-confidence, resilience, leadership. It's not just about playing. It can bring you so many other aspects to growing up as a young individual in a school setting. I think it's important that there's a role model there for them. Like I said before, there was no role model for me, a female role model so if I can go in and just ignite or do something to a few female players out there, then it's great.
Speaker 1:And finally, we've seen so many incredible developments that we alluded to in women's football in the last few years, but obviously we've still got a long way to go. So if I could wave a magic wand and you were sort of head of the FA for a month or so, what are the first things you'd like to change in the women's games? Do you think it's a very very broad question.
Speaker 2:You need to ask.
Speaker 1:Sue Campbell that I just speak to her too, actually.
Speaker 2:I don't use that answer. She's the figurehead of that. I don't really know. I think we're heading in the right direction in terms of product. I think the product on the pitch is probably the best it's ever been. The resources now the FA of so many people In positions, marketing comms, the games on TV, accessibility to the general public I think the players now are household names, which is important because then you have an identity.
Speaker 2:You can follow that female. I don't know, it's just obviously tendencies. We still want to get more bums on seats and keep them coming back and the attendances are up every year. The pure fact that the England team have done well over the last couple of years and they have had that accessibility on TV, it really really helps so people can tune in and watch and follow. But yeah, I'm not sure I'm actually fully qualified to move the game forward in that way. It's going in the right direction. Oh, yeah, massively. I just pinched myself because from when I first started playing we were playing in big baggy kits. The ankle sock bit, I remember, was up to my calf. So now they have their own England female fitted kit. That's just a small part of it. You know they just get so much now from when I first started playing. There's youth teams now in school teams and it's just brilliant to see from when I first started to nothing to where the game is now.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much to Kelly for her incredible openness and honesty. What a truly delightful person she is and so humble about her amazing achievements. I'm hugely grateful to Barclays for their support with the Game Changers, which enables us to take the stories of these incredible women in football to a huge new audience. I'd love to hear what you think about the Game Changers podcast, so please, if you could take a moment to leave a review or give us a rating. It really does make a big difference To make sure you don't miss out on future new episodes. Please subscribe to the Game Changers and you can find out more about all my guests at promoteprcom. Next week I'll be talking to Jackie Oatley MBE. Jackie is a hugely respected sports presenter, hosting football and dance for ITV and best known for being the first female commentator on BBC's Match of the Day. She recently took over as the first female host of Sky Sport Sunday Supplement and we explore the reactions to this high profile role on the podcast.
Speaker 2:You think I have no idea what I'm talking about, don't you? Because I'm a lass. What on earth would she know?
Speaker 1:I bet she doesn't know about our team. Bet she couldn't have that passion. I've actually heard these things which are hilarious the Game Changers, Fearless women in football.