Donna Fraser: Changing the narrative about breast cancer

Donna Fraser is a 4-time Olympian who now specialises in Equality, Diversity and Inclusion in sport. 

Donna won medals at 400m at World and European Championships and the Commonwealth Games and reluctantly retired from Athletics in 2009 after a breast cancer diagnosis.

She went on to become UK Athletics’ first Equality, Diversity and Engagement Lead, working to champion ethnically diverse communities and inclusivity at all levels of the sport.  Following a role as D&I Lead for Birmingham 2022, Donna was appointed as the first director of equality, diversity and inclusion for the Professional Cricketers' Association.

An incredible sportswoman who’s gone on to deliver such powerful work around inclusion it’s little wonder that Donna was awarded an OBE in the 2020 New Year’s Honours List.

We talk about Donna’s incredible career & she reflects on being part of one of the greatest events in Olympic history, when Cathy Freeman won the 400m in Sydney 2000, why talking openly about her breast cancer diagnosis was so important and what more needs to change to ensure sport is inclusive for all. 

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Donna Fraser: Changing the narrative about breast cancer
Sue Anstiss:

Hello and welcome to The Game Changers Podcast, where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are doing so much to drive change and challenges status quo for women and girls across society. 

I'm Sue Anstiss, and I'd like to start by thanking our partners, Sport England, who support The Game Changers through a National Lottery award. 

Today I'm talking to Donna Fraser, a superb international athlete who now specialises in equality, diversity, and inclusion in sport. 

Donna competed at four Olympic games and won medals at World and European Championships and the Commonwealth Games. She reluctantly retired from athletics in 2009 after a breast cancer diagnosis, but went on to become UK Athletics first equality, diversity and engagement lead, working to champion ethnically diverse communities and inclusivity at all levels of the sport. 

Following a role as D&I lead for Birmingham 2022, it was recently announced that Donna's been appointed as the first director of equality, diversity, and inclusion for the Professional Cricketers Association. 

An incredible sportswoman who's gone on to deliver such powerful work around inclusion is little wonder that Donna was awarded an OBE in the 2020 New Year's Honors list, and if that wasn't enough, Donna, you've just run the London marathon after saying you never would!  Tell us about that experience.

Donna Fraser:

Hi Sue, yeah and it most certainly was an experience. My feet, if, if you could see me now, I've actually got a, a peppermint and tea tree sock thing going on, on my feet at the moment, but ah! It was agony, absolute agony. But the reason why I was doing it is what kept me going to be honest.

Sue Anstiss:

And I'm assuming that the training mindset and physical training was very, very different for that, than you done in the past. So how did you, how did you find that?

Donna Fraser 

Absolutely. I'm very much used to getting from A to B as quickly as possible and that's not the case. This is most certainly that term we use. This is a marathon, not a sprint Donna, and I was constantly reminding myself of that in training. I downloaded a beginner's program just to help me get through it. And in all honesty, I thought, Oh, this is not too bad. But then as the weeks progressed, the mileage increased and I was getting more and more tired. My feet were hurting more and more. I was aching more and more. But, yeah, it was definitely a journey that, that tested my resilience and my mindset, both as an athlete and as an individual as well.

Sue Anstiss:

And you are obviously very competitive historically, but did you find that hard not to, you know, not that you were gonna win it, but to be the fastest, you know, a different approach this, this time?

Donna Fraser:

I gave myself a good talking to, when I started the program, I was like, Donna, you cannot be competitive in this otherwise you will just fail miserably. You won't finish. So I listened to my own words and absolutely just did what I could and just wanted to get through the finish line no matter how I did it, whether it was on my knees, but just finish it and the time didn't matter and I didn't set a time goal for myself because I think that would've definitely, the hairs set the hairs going and thinking, right, I've gotta do this, I've gotta do that. But I didn't.

Sue Anstiss:

I ran the London Marathon actually just once back in 2001. And I think losing my toenails was the most shocking part. So I'm not sure what those socks are doing for your feet, if they're helping,

Donna Fraser:

Honestly, again, respect to any distance runner. Not that I disrespected them before, but all those elements of wearing the right trainers, even the right kit, drinking, taking on fluids, all of that's not as, straightforward as it looks.

Sue Anstiss:

And you were running with the Her Spirit team who had just completed an awesome Lakes to London challenge. So can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Donna Fraser:

Yeah, Her Spirit, they're an amazing organization. Holly and Mel have done a, a tremendous job at trying to highlight the importance of activity for women. No matter what it is, it's just getting out there moving. They've got yoga on their app, they've got athletics running, everything you can possibly think of.  And, you cannot believe the challenge that they put to me, well, I wasn't doing their first bit. They swam 5K in Lake Windermere and then cycled down to London to meet me for the marathon. Crazy. I, I couldn't complain. I felt like a fraud, to be honest. Just…

Sue Anstiss :

…just doing a marathon. Yeah, <laugh>.

Donna Fraser :

Exactly. So I was like, wow. I mean, they're amazing. What they do, their commitment, their drive, they’re everything that you'd want to be, and, and they're great role models

Sue Anstiss:

And they've raised, I think I last looked, it was over 70,000 pounds that they've raised for Breast Cancer Now. So I'll put a link in, the show notes for the podcast too, cause  I know they've done an amazing job there. How much is running still part of your life generally? Not marathons necessarily, but just running.

Donna Fraser:

Definitely not at all. I've promised myself when I retired that I wouldn't step foot on a track because I know what I'm like it will draw me back in. Excuse me. Um, so I've stayed away on purpose, but I do go out for the odd run and when I say the odd run, it's 15 minutes, not five hours. <laugh>.

Sue Anstiss:

And your competitive distance, as you say, was a little bit shorter at two and, and 400 meters. So taking us back to the start, where did athletics start for you?

Donna Fraser:

Oh my goodness. Yeah, we're going way back now.  I started running, I think from the minute I was born. My parents say to me, it was really difficult to keep me still. The minute I could walk. I ran everywhere and my primary school, was just amazing. I went to an all girls primary school, which is extremely rare now, and had amazing female role models to look up to. All of the teachers were female, so I didn't know anything different. I, I was always surrounded by strong women. And my primary school teacher recognized the talent in me, we’re a sporting family. Anyway, my family loved cricket and it's quite ironic that I'll be working in cricket. My sister was a tracker field athlete, My dad was cross country runner. My mom says she just ran away from the boys, but you know, it, it sport was in our family, Saturday watching Big Daddy wrestling, horse racing, you name it, we watched it. So when my primary school teacher recognised that talent in me, she was just awesome and I didn’t see it then. And then I was tackled, I say tackled, by Croydon Harrier’s Club to come down and join. And it wasn't something my parents wanted me to do as such as a career because it wasn't a thing. It was just a hobby then. And then I joined the club and the rest is history. I've stayed with that club forever. I'm still a, a life member. I won't run for them though.

Sue Anstiss (<laugh>. How wonderful. And you started, I think you were about eight or so when you started running, but you were six times England school champions, such kind of young raw talent. So when you look back now, what was it that you love so much about athletics and about the sport itself?

Donna Fraser:

Well, I think I could run fast. I was good at something. I wasn't that bad at school, it was just sport in general.  making new friends coming together, aiming for that peak performance was just it for me. Aiming for excellence and traveling and learning different cultures, the places I traveled to and, and I guess this is why I got into the field of E D&I  cause that's exactly what sport does. It brings people together. You learn about different people, their temperaments, their behaviors, their cultures. And I just loved it. I just loved athletics. I loved winning,  of course who doesn't? And I felt good about myself. whenever I did compete, when I put that kit on, especially the team GB kit, you had that sense of pride, that you can't beat it. And I was always, obviously when I was at school as well, coming back to school, the praise, you'd get that lift, and that sense of achievement. You just can't beat it.

Sue Anstiss:

I love that. It's very honest of you, almost of the Yeah, it's lovely to get out there and win and to have that feedback and so on. I think often we think about the whole, being with other people and the camaraderie, which are obviously important too. But I love that actually that is, that is what drives so many, you know, great athletes, that needs to be there, doesn't it, to commit to it. And, and how much of your life, I guess growing up and teenage years was around, you know, making sacrifices to compete in athletics? We hear so much don't we about teenage girls dropping out of sport. Was that ever a consideration for you?

Donna Fraser:

Well, consider my parents didn't want me to do athletics.  I was adamant I'll prove them wrong, that I could do both. So I did study very hard at school. I worked hard and was able to still go training and compete at the weekends and to prove them wrong that I could do both. And I can understand, you know, that drop off, because there's a lot of peer pressure and, and I always say it now, I can count my good friends, my good friends on one hand because those are the ones that understood if they didn't see me for weeks on end and weekends when parties were happening and I couldn't go, they understood. And those who didn't that thought it was about them, they dropped by the wayside. But my family, my support network, kept me on the straight and narrow in terms of, you know, if they're your real friends, they will support you regardless of what you are doing.

And, and that's how it was. I was headstrong. I knew what I wanted, I knew what I wanted to do, what I wanted to achieve. And my dad had all girls, so he wasn't the kind of person to say, Oh you know, poor you. He really just toughened us all up and just, you know, if you want something girls, you go for it. Don't let anyone stand in your way. So poor him, he was the only male in the household, but a huge ally for me.

Sue Anstiss:

Like my husband, three daughters and me <laugh>, And having run a fair few, 400 meters myself over, over my younger years, but it's not the most pleasant of distances. So Did you prefer it to the 200 or were you just better at it than you were the 200? You're shaking your head there. 

Donna Fraser:

Oh, definitely not, no, I prefer the 200 any single day. I just happened to be better at the 400 meters. But in fact, once I started doing 400, my two hundreds improved as well. And in fact so did my hundred meters. So it's interesting how the, the body works and the training and, and your speed and your endurance. But yeah, you're so right. 400 is not an easy event. And it took a while. I wouldn't say I perfected it at all. I still a lot, had a lot to do and I ran out of time. But it's not an easy race. You really can just do something wrong. And I, I, I did that in Sydney and it can just blow things out of the water and it can go terribly wrong. So it's about pace, it's endurance, it's speed, it's a mix of everything and even the training partners I trained with who did eight hundreds dreaded doing four hundreds because the lactic acid is just not pleasant

Sue Anstiss:

<laugh>. And so I guess I've known you a bit historically and we've worked together with the Women's Sport Trust in the past too and in my head I always thought you were incredibly tall. And it's only in researching you that I realized you are tall, you are still tall, but you've got the most amazing long legs, which I hadn't really perceived in the past. If someone asked me, I'd just said, Oh yeah Donna, she must be well over six foot. But that actually isn't the case.

Donna Fraser:

It's not the case. And it's interesting, if I'm out at dinners or I'm in in a board room and I'm sat down, everyone thinks, oh yeah, we're all the same. Like I stand up and it's like, oh, you are tall, so I've got a tiny body and long legs, 36 inside leg and yeah, you can imagine that was a nightmare growing up trying to find trousers to fit me

Sue Anstiss:

And were long legs always an advantage for, for sprinting. I guess it's that maybe as the further you go more distance to  get that cadence moving.

Donna Fraser:

Yeah, it took my coach a while to really capitalise on my stride length. We worked really hard to lengthen it, so it was really supportive of the 400 meters, not ideal for a hundred meters, but then of course the great Usain Bolt came and blow blew that theory out of the window, because he, he was just phenomenal. He had everything and I, I just wished I had a little bit of his speed. I always wish would run out of track if I ran the hundred meters. But yeah, if, if you've got the right coach and, and you've got the right mechanics, absolutely it's possible. So I never saw it as a hindrance. Just definitely more as an advantage that I can open up and just gather ground in a race

Sue Anstiss:

Did you try four hurdles at all?

Donna Fraser:

I did. That was the plan. That was always the plan and then I broke my ankle, my first hurdles training setting. I broke my ankle, Not many people know this and then it was back to the drawing board and I literally had to try and learn to run again and it was, it was difficult. It really was. So, yeah, I, I never had the opportunity, cause I do believe that would've been my event. Yeah,

Sue Anstiss:

I was thinking actually I moved from four, to four hurdles. I was never ever level anywhere near your competing. But that was the natural progression. And I was thinking about your strike with that stride length. That could have been amazing in terms of you wouldn't have even noticed the hurdles would you with your stride length?

Donna Fraser:

I wouldn't have. That was the absolute plan. But you know, all these things get a spanner, gets thrown in the works and that's it. You have to change direction but deal with it the best you can.

Sue Anstiss:

Absolutely. And you took part in Four Olympics with your first in Atlanta in 1996. How old were you then?

Donna Fraser:

I was 23.

Sue Anstiss:

23. A youngster, <laugh>, I put you on the spot there. Didn't I? Could probably work that out myself!

Donna Fraser:

Add it up for me! 

Sue Anstiss:

And it was such a different time for British sport. So sadly the worst performance at summer games since 1952. We finished in 36th position with just one gold and only 15 medals overall. So what are your memories of that first Olympic games?

Donna Fraser:

Oh, so many. And, uh, we talk about it now because the eight girls that I shared, well, seven other girls I shared with we’re still friends today. And it was my first games and I always remember watching 84 in Los Angeles on TV. And that was the picture I had. That's the, that sea of colour and people having fun as well as performing of course.  And then when I got there, I was just in awe of everything. You know, being on the team with the likes of Linford Christy, Colin Jackson, Sally Gunnell, all the greats I'd seen on TV. I was like, Oh my goodness, this is just too much. I was overwhelmed, by it all, but I just embraced it and enjoyed the experience. And then of course back then it was four rounds of the 400 meters, and I only got to the second round. But I did leave with a personal best, so I'd given it my all my best shot. But the, the whole atmosphere and the dining room, the free McDonald's, which everyone always talks about it was just a fantasy. It was just amazing. I, I loved every minute.

Sue Anstiss:

And when you started out competing, and I guess when you went to the Olympics in 96 at that highest level athletics, it was pre national lottery funding and funding for athletes. So you worked full time, I believe, while you were training. How did you juggle that?

Donna Fraser:

I did.  I worked in the tourism industry and in fact, leading up to Atlanta, I wanted to go part-time with my employer, but it wasn't a done thing then.  so I had to make the choice of whether to leave, and just try and focus on my athletics in get into the game. So I opted for the latter, I was devastated cause I loved the tourism, sector. It was really great fun, especially cause I was working for tourist board that my parents are from that island of St Vincent in the Grenadines. So I had that little personal connection with the job. So yeah, I focused everything. I didn't have any funds, only my savings to, to get me through. So it was pretty tough knowing that I couldn't go shopping and had to really count my pennies. but at the same time I knew what my focus was was to get to the games. So when I got to the games, it was great. Did that season. And then luckily, and I'm really thankful to this very day that sponsorship came through, which was then Seaboard and now it's EDF Energy, to sponsor five athletes leading up to the 2000 Olympics, from the southeast. So they, they not only gave us funding, but they also offered the five of us a job. And I was the lucky one to get that part-time job. So I was able to do my athletics -  exactly what I wanted  - part-time, 20 hours a week, plus being able to do my athletics training. So it was a perfect mix and I just wished organizations would do more of that.

Sue Anstiss:

And you stayed with them for quite some time? I believe after that.

Donna Fraser:

18 years. Gosh, scary <laugh>.

Sue Anstiss:

And what difference did that make to you then as an athlete to have that funding and, you know, we then had the national lottery funding. We had UK sport funded as a body. So for athletes, generally for yourself and others, what difference do you think that did make to people's lives?

Donna Fraser:

Oh, a huge amount. It's one less thing to have to worry about.  I guess I come from the I where there was no lottery funding, so being able to manage my money, it wasn't such a, a big deal. So when the lottery did come in, it was like, wow, this is brilliant. This is an extra thing that I don't need to think about. But in terms of the physio support, all of those, services that are available to athletes are just really, really positive. And, and we all know, being an athlete in itself, it's a job. It's not just a hobby, it's not just a, a nice thing to do. It is actually, it's a profession. So when you've got other things, not having to worry about that, it, it's just one less thing to think about and, and it was a great thing to come into play.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned Sydney earlier, so obviously you were there competing in one of the greatest races in Olympic history when Kathy Freeman won the 400 meter finals in Sydney 2000. I do remember it very, very well. So can you tell us about going into it, so the leading up into that event in terms of your preparation?

Donna Fraser:

Yeah, that was an amazing year. I thought I was training pretty well to be honest. but then my coach being rest his soul, quite an eccentric coach, really out there. Sometimes some unorthodox training, sessions that he'll give us. But we, I always said I was his Guinea pig, He'd try all sorts with us. But, he arranged for me to train with Cathy Freeman that summer because of course Cathy training in Australia would've been a huge burden on her, a lot of stress. So she removed herself to come and train here in the UK, which I didn't even know.  but Ayo my coach was able to set that up. So I was able to train with her that summer. She needed a training partner here. My coach's approach was and how Kathy's coach approach was to training 400 was very similar and it just worked out well. So I joined her during the summer and wow that it was an eye opener. I, I thought I was good, but I was not, I was way off. She was miles ahead of me in every single session. And it was a, it was a huge learning curve for me because it's so easy to get into your comfort zone when you are in front in your own training group and, and not quite pushing those boundaries. And to be world class, you need to push those boundaries. And, and that was the, the turning point for me.

Sue Anstiss:

And as you say, there was that huge pressure for her, wasn't there? I mean, she was the poster girl going into those games. And what was the atmosphere like on the night as an athlete down there on the track? I've watched the video back you know, ahead of talking to you, I've watched it again on YouTube. It's extraordinary.

Donna Fraser:

Oh, honestly, Sue,  I watch it now and, and get nervous every single time it’s ridiculous. But on the night I wasn't, I so wasn't nervous.  I remember as if you could hear a pin drop in the stadium, all I remember is the flashing light. I didn't hear the crowd at all.  And I was so much as we call it, in the zone, so much in the zone that I didn't realize I was in the Olympic final, hence why I didn't run the race I should have run. But anyway, that, that's a whole another episode, I think. So, um, in terms of, you know, mental state and just not changing the plan. But it, you know, I look back and I think, Oh wow, I was part of that. But you, I, I didn't realize it at the time, right. I just saw it as another 400 meters, which isn't a bad thing. It really isn't because you can just get overwhelmed and taken over and nervous. But at the same time, I wasn't present. I wasn't present in the moment. And being that self aware of what else was going on around me, that it felt as if I was just the only one on the track, which, which threw everything off completely for that race plan.

Sue Anstiss:

Cause you were, you were seventh I think, coming around the bend and then all of a sudden the home straight right up to fourth and almost third. It must have been so hard for you celebrating Cathy's success and every - that was such a special moment in history.  I say watching the video, you are the first to go over and, and congratulate her too. So, so hard to be celebrating that and then to have just missed out on a medal yourself.

Donna Fraser:

Absolutely. It was in that split second, a roller coaster of emotions to be honest and there's that photo of both of us looking up at the screen as the results are coming up. And I knew she had won and I knew what it meant to her and what we'd gone through on that journey through that summer. So 50% of me absolutely over the moon for her and the other 50% gutted for myself as the results came up. So it, it was a bittersweet moment, for me without a doubt. And, uh, it, again, it was such a learning curve and, and showing that resilience and knowing that in a few days time I had to pick myself up and get back on track for the relay for the girls, cause it's not just about me anymore. So yeah, it, it was a, it was a bitter pill to swallow. I was gutted, but at the same time breaking 50 seconds for the first time, being fourth best in the world. It could have been a different result had I run the race, I should have run.

Sue Anstiss:

And, and Cathy went on, you know, at that race to become the first aboriginal person to win gold and Olympics. So how much did that mean at the time for those, I guess that listen to this, that may not have been, you know, listening and watching in 2000?

Donna Fraser:

Oh my goodness, I honestly don't know how she was able to get through that year and, and the years leading up to it cause it didn't just start in 2000. You know, she's a huge, huge role model for her community. The face of the games as a whole. So, you know, both sides, the Australians and the aborigine community. It was more than just winning the Olympic games. It, it was a statement, it was something that you can achieve no matter what background you are from, just the opportunity. It will make that difference. And she had the opportunity to be a great athlete and, and she's, she is and was. So there were so many messages that came out of that, you know, the whole equality piece, equity. It, it was just amazing. And it's interesting, I didn't realise it at the time. I knew what it meant to her. But now working in the space of D&I, I really understand how how big a deal it was, and those conversations that probably hadn't been had leading up to the games, that collaboration between both communities, it, it changed the course of, of, of the perception of the indigenous people.

Sue Anstiss:

And that has changed a lot, hasn't it? You think 22 years on, we have seen significant changes, but stimulated at that time through, through her activity. You went on to compete at Athens and Beijing, but in 2009 things changed for you with a, a healthcare. Are you happy to talk about that and what happened there?

Donna Fraser:

Absolutely, absolutely. More than happy to. Yeah, it was a strange one because although I went to 2008, I, didn’t step foot on the track, so I can't technically say I'm a full time Olympian. I represented TeamGB at four games, I can say that. but yeah, it was, that was, tough for me to take, not even getting a chance to run in the heat, so I changed the course of what I was gonna do next and my coach and I sat down and I decided to do 400 meters indoors, which with these long legs is a big ask, oh my goodness, honestly, me and my bright ideas. but I wanted, I needed that challenge. I needed that lift, something to work towards and, and not just go through the motions. And it certainly did, I that came away from Europeans with a, a relay medal and it put me in good stead for the outdoor season.

And then of course I found the lump in my breast in May of 2009. But like most athletes, you're so body aware and, and you know, when things aren't quite right, but you still go and, you know, go through the course and get things checked out. And I did just that. And the GPs said, you know, regardless it needs to be removed. Um, and we'll send that off for a, for a biopsy. So I had a lumpectomy, got it sent off, and yeah, low and behold it came back as, um, early stages of breast cancer. So it was a, a curve ball I did not see coming, at all. No family history, of course fit and well,  I just did not see it coming whatsoever. So it was a, it was a huge blow, a real big blow for me. But I, I always say it, if it wasn't for sport and that whole mindset that I had, I probably wouldn't have come out the other end as I, as I did.

Sue Anstiss:

And you were just 36, I believe, at the time.  And you, at the time I only told your coach in your close family members. So had you intended to keep training if you could, and competing? Was that your initial plan?

Donna Fraser:

Absolutely. Again, it goes back to what I said at the beginning. My dad was very much, don't let anything stand in your way, just keep going. And my goal was to get to the world championships. So I continued to train. I told my coach and for obvious reasons and my close family, but that, that was it. I didn't, and everyone was just like, Oh my gosh, you know, you're still going. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was still hanging in there. And uh, it, it was tough to, cause I'd obviously had the lumpectomy and was still competing and the agony I was in, so no one really knew the backstory of it. And then when the results came, came back, that was when I made the decision that I, I need to press pause on, on my athletics career, and just really focus on my health and get, get well and just get back on the horse as it were.

So I didn't plan on coming out retirement, but you know, if you just feel I'm not done, I wanna finish on my terms, not just because of the breast cancer and then also the bigger message, around body awareness and breast cancer awareness. I just felt I needed to do more as a black woman as well because in our culture we don't talk about the C word that much. And more and more it's gotten better over the years. But if I could help save a life, I felt I, I needed to do something, despite my parents not wanting me to tell anyone else, keep it behind closed doors, but I was adamant that I needed to, to share my story. So that's why I came out of retirement in 2012. Not only just to make the games, but to also tell that story as to why I was returning.

Sue Anstiss:

That's so powerful, isn't it? And you've been an ambassador for Breast Cancer Now for well over a decade, so that's fascinating in terms of both, you are using the platform for women generally, but for for black women that it's not so talked about. I hadn't realised that.

Donna Fraser:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And and of course it's not just, a women's disease either. People think it is just impacts women and it is men get it as well. So, you know, we just need to spread that awareness and early detection is just so, so important. And I do think having been an athlete, being body aware helped so much. If it's not right, you know more than anybody else, just keep banging that door down with your GP if they send you home. And it's just so important to just stay on top of it. But yeah, I, I just felt I needed to do something. I can't have gone through this journey and not help in some shape or form. And the only way I thought I could was to a, get involved with a charity that was doing great work already. And then also telling my story because cancer doesn't discriminate and that people will see me as an Olympian, a fit person and how could this be? And it changed the narrative completely. It doesn't discriminate anyone can be impacted.

Sue Anstiss:

I'm gonna move on to   your kind of working career post your athletics career, but in 2017 you became the E D&I lead at UK Athletics and, and many of us may think of athletics as being a fairly inclusive sport in terms of ethnicity, but also gender, disability. But what did you find needed to change there

Donna Fraser:

You are right, you hit the nail right in the head there Sue.  I always say athletics is probably the most diverse and inclusive sport and most people can get a pair of trainers and just go out and run, but at the same time they recognise they needed someone to come in and drive those messages through the organization and get people thinking differently and not just rest on our laurels as being the most diverse sport. We could lead the way in sport with this. So it was great that they recognised that, I was lucky enough to get the role. We did a huge amount, in the organization. Just that whole awareness and understanding what does D&I really mean to athletics and there's still a lot of work to be done. You know, we're not, not the best, we still have a lot of things to do, but it was a great starting point and they, they took that step forward. We were the first sport to have an LGBTQ plus network, the first to have an a, an ethnically diverse network as well. And, that's just bringing people together from any part of athletics, whether you're an athlete, an official, an employee just coming together and just sharing those experiences to make the sport better.

Sue Anstiss:

And what did you learn from your time in that role that might be useful to others now in terms of shifting that diversity, especially as you've mentioned there for officials and, and volunteers? Cause I think we think of athletics as very representative from a participation point of view, but it is about the workings, isn't it? The people that are working within the sport too?

Donna Fraser:

Absolutely. I think the, the most important thing, and the first thing I started to do was just having those open and frank conversations. The power of conversation, you can't beat it. I spent a lot of time speaking to people how they felt. Do they feel like they belong in athletics and not just being an official and measuring the jumps into the sand pit, Do they feel part of that athletics family? And you know, I'd like to think that I am approachable, that if something isn't quite right, then people can come to me and talk to me about it and I'll do my best to put things right. But a huge turning curve was,  you know, the George Floyd murder  and when we did the whole Let's Talk about Race series, that just blew my mind because I didn't, I thought I'm very much a person rather than running away from the walls, let's go to the walls, and we'd never done anything like that before where it was a open forum for anyone in the sport to come together and tell their truth. So creating that environment that people felt comfortable to do that and it wouldn't go any further, but we just needed to listen as a sport. And, and it was just amazing. It was both emotional, it was enlightening, it was empowering. I, I just couldn't believe we ran 17 sessions, and in those sessions there were 10 to 15 people in each. It was, it was just phenomenal. I thought we'd have three at the most, but again, being able to be heard and I think that that's the key with, with any part of D&I is being heard, being valued of what people are saying and then having action after.

Sue Anstiss:

And you moved on then to go to work at the Commonwealth Games at Birmingham 2022. So, what was your role there and, and also how was Birmingham different to previous games? In terms of ED&I?

Donna Fraser:

So I started, um, at Birmingham 2022 heading up their inclusion engagement team. And it was interesting because I came quite late to the party. Of course, Birmingham 2022 didn't have as much time as any other commonwealth games. That time was really cut short. So my role came into play quite late. But when I did come in, they'd already set out their EDI priorities and one of them was, well their vision was for the games to be the most inclusive and accessible games ever. And that was almost music to my ears because they recognised that that's so, so important. With Birmingham being so diverse, we had to capitalise on that as much as possible and really shine the light on Birmingham. So I'd say half of my job was done in terms of leadership recognised this is what we wanted to do, we just needed to deliver it.

But it goes back to the power of conversation, you know, connecting with communities. Community engagement sat within my remit and so did safeguarding as well. And safeguarding, as we all know, is just so important in sport. It was the first of its kind to have this role in place. We were the first games for many games of doing a lot of new firsts, you know, new sports in play, more middles for women. again, the whole focus on sustainability, social value, there were so many firsts that really encompass D&I as a whole and, and we also worked well together to drive those messages, in no matter what we were delivering. But it was an interesting time. It really was.

Sue Anstiss:

It's fantastic to have been involved in something. Yeah, you say so groundbreaking and, and moving on then last week you were appointed, it's been announced to be the new director of equality, diversity and inclusion at the Professional Cricketers Association. So can you tell us a little bit more about the PCA and the role it plays within Cricket for those that might not know?

Donna Fraser:

Yeah, so it, it's a, a membership or looking after the players, both male and female players and their welfare, giving them that support. So I guess I'm probably in a good position that I understand the athletes’ needs, although I've never been a cricketer, it's not about that. it's just about individuals and their needs and wants. And then the flip side of that, my work with D&I, so of course Cricket has gone through some turbulent times of late talking about this topic D&I. So having someone, it's the first time it's kind as well in cricket to help drive that and give that guidance and support and really galvanise that conversation that some counties probably are having some difficulties with that. Players probably as well, don't feel that they've, they've had that support. So I'll be coming in. It's really very much focused on education.

It's about educating and having those uncomfortable conversations where needed rather than ignoring them and sweeping them under the carpet because then they just come back twice as hard and bite you,  where you don't want to be bitten basically. But yeah, it's gonna be an interesting role. I think the fact that it's the, the first time it's kind, I can make it my own um, and really drive it, but I've got huge support from the senior leadership and they know the will is there, which is half the battle one, just need to really engage with the players and understand what the issues are, what are the barriers and, and also as the wider PCA as well so I can have a better understanding and start driving that agenda.

Sue Anstiss:

I should have said congratulations cause it's a fantastic role where, you know, as you say in a sport that that needs some help and assistance here and now and those players too. But it's not just about race, is it in cricket there's also the challenges to get a level playing field in terms of gender and class and and disability. So will that be,  come within that role as well?

Donna Fraser:

Absolutely, Absolutely. And, and every protected characteristic in fact, I think it, it is so easy when we talk about diversity, just talk about the ethnicity, but there's such a broader conversation. So that, that will be really, really interesting for me as well. And the dynamics from coming from a multisport organisation with Birmingham 2022 and what we did there and how we can keep that going through into cricket. Of course we had the, the T 20 cricket for women at Birmingham. So that was an eyeopener in itself and so many spectators were saying, wow, I didn't know it was that great. So again, you know, the, the interest is there, but we just need to raise that, which is of course the work you've been doing for years Sue, is to try and elevate women's sport as much as possible cause they deserve it.

Sue Anstiss:

And I loved, at Birmingham, the female officials and there's signage to say that there was all female officials during the T20 games too. So it's great to see that spread, as you say, from the participants to those, working in the sport too. So just as we close, you've obviously had a long career across sport. I just wonder in terms of gender equality, what are those changes that you've seen, during your career and, and whether there are big issues that you feel still need to be addressed in terms of gender equality in sport?

Donna Fraser:

Well, I always say Sue, my aim is to make myself redundant. Because if everything was equal and equitable then you wouldn't need people like me in such roles. There is a lot of work to be done, but I always say let's not end on a, on a negative. Where we are now compared to 10 years ago, we've had, and we’re probably a pigeon step forward. So it's going in the right direction, probably at snails pace. I think the fundamental difference is the visibility. It has increased, but there's still much more. We really need to find that plateau where everything is just as equal as possible where possible. And, and I know in terms of disability, the dynamics of setting up, uh, uh, uh, competitions, can be quite, logistically tough. However, having said that, for example, at Birmingham, 2022, we had an integrated program.

So it's possible rather than focused on what's not possible, focus on what is possible. So I think the visibility has been a…it's improved considerably, but we still need more. And having the Lionesses win, I mean that in itself, it shouldn't have taken that win for people to be talking about them. But I'll take that. I think, you know, they fully deserve all the accolades and the praise that they've received, but it's got to continue. It shouldn't just stop there. Even if they do badly in the future, still elevate them cause they're still great players.

Sue Anstiss:

Thanks again to Donna for taking the time to talk to me today. And we wish her well in the new role at the Professional Cricketers Association. 

Head over to fearlesswomen.co.uk to find out more about all of the incredible Game Changers I've spoken to you for the podcast. If track and field athletics is your passion, then do go back and listen to previous episodes with the likes of Jess Ennis Hill, Sarah Storey, Denise Lewis, Tanni Gray Thompson, Holly Bradshaw, Katerina Johnson Thompson, and Hannah Cockcroft. 

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