Jonathan Licht: What broadcasters can do to ensure gender parity

Along with game-changing women in sport, The Game Changers features male allies and today’s guest is having a huge impact on the visibility of women's sport. 

Jonathan Licht is a managing director of Sky Sports. He originally joined Sky back in 1998 after starting his career at Eurosport, he was appointed managing director for Sky Sports in 2021 and is leading the business into its fourth decade of operation. 

During his career at Sky Johnathan has overseen a number of significant initiatives that have made a massive impact on the profile of women's sport, especially in cricket, netball, golf and football.

Jonathan shares his own journey as a male ally for women’s sport, and we explore what more broadcasters like Sky can do to ensure gender parity across the sector both in front of and behind the camera. 

A huge thank you to our partners, Sport England who are kindly supporting the next three series of The Game Changers podcast through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Jonathan Licht: What broadcasters can do to ensure gender parity

Sue Anstiss:

Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss. And this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazers in women's sport. Firstly, a big thank you to our partners, Sport England, who are kindly supporting the Game Changers through the National Lottery. Along with game-changing women in sport, I'm also talking to male allies and my guest today is having a huge impact on the visibility of women's sport. Jonathan Licht is a managing director of Sky Sports. He originally joined Sky back in 1998 after starting his career at Eurosport, he was appointed managing director for Sky Sports in 2021 and is leading the business into its fourth decade of operation.  During his career at Sky Johnathan has overseen a number of significant initiatives that have made a massive impact on the profile of women's sport, especially in cricket, netball and football. 

So Jonathan, with that in mind, can I start by setting the scene a little for women's sport at Sky today? What the kind of key sports rights and partnerships that you have in place at the moment?

Jonathan Licht:

Hi Sue. Thank you for having me. I’ve always gotta be careful in my role when I start getting into listing things that I, that I don't, that I don't miss out anything, whether that's sports, whether that's partners, whether that's people. So I'm very careful, so I get my apologies out there early, but look, you know, we are sort of, very happy and proud to say that the sort of our list of priority partners is, is very extensive in women's sports and we kind of think of our sports more and more as, as our kind of channels are,  lined up in our vertical. So if we kind of go through that and then we can think of it, obviously the WSL is one of our more recent deals, we're extremely proud of that, you know, doing what we said we would do to help partner with the sport to really sort of raise a visibility of I'm sure we’ll talk up a little bit more about that down the line. 

Cricket, obviously we've been very longstanding partners with the ECB. Our relationship on women's cricket is, is 25 years long and hopefully will be many, many years ahead. We're all enjoying the,  ICC World Cup Cricket if only it was on a bit of a better time, but I watched quite a bit of a it  on Saturday night and we're sort of very pleased during my disturbed sleep to, to see that we sort of managed to get that sort of a yeah, very dramatic win and, and we're sort of keep following it, hopefully gonna make the semifinals coming up later in the week.  There's golf very strong commitment there to the tours, to the majors, to the Solheim cup, which has been a sort of longstanding staple of Sky Sports and, you know, in, in any year, always an absolute highlight for our audiences. Motorsport watch this space! Hopefully there'll be, there'll be a bit more to say there.

Sue Anstiss:

Oh, that's exciting!

Jonathan Licht:

So we'll sort of hang fire on that. And then obviously then we have the sort of the, the collection of sports and netball would be, would be an absolute leader there very strong relationship, 15 years long.  We just announced the deal with the SunCorp league in Australia. So we'll be covering, I think it's 60 matches obviously lots of the England team play out there. So that's, that's kind of an exciting addition. So I saw WNBA, coverage from Super League. So, lots of sport, boxing clearly more and more, you know, they will not, or they would be very unusual for there to be a fight night that will go out on Sky Sport either domestically or from the US without a very high profile female fight. So, really sort of absolutely intrinsically with everything we're doing in, across, you know, the majority of our sports really, really strong, rightly so, representation and engagement with our sports and our audiences.

Sue Anstiss:

You did well there. I think you listed most. I'm very impressed. 

Jonathan Licht:

Oh gosh. Now I'm worried already. Yeah. So

Sue Anstiss:

Rugby be league. There was something that you've,

Jonathan Licht:

We said, I said, rugby, Don't try and catch….

Sue Anstiss:

You've worked at Sky for over 17 years. So what changes in women's sport have you witnessed through your career? And I guess how much is women's sport central to the output today in comparison to where you started in the early 2000s?

Jonathan Licht:

Yeah. Look, I'd be a bit careful with how I answered that because I think there's been a lot of, you know, there's a lot of people that have worked at Sky and at Sky Sports that, that have been passionate and been advocates for women’s sport for a very long time. And, and I think we have to be very careful ‘cause actually it was probably, you know, you used the word upfront about pioneers and trailblazers and those were the people that were really, you know, championing talking, driving forward at a time when lots, so people weren't. So actually to say that we've come a long way. I think you need to be a little bit careful that you're not sort of dismissing a lot of very important and strong work, but I, but I do think, you know, there has been a, um, a significant sea change at Sky Sports again, I'd be a little bit careful, but in my, in mind I can probably see that real sort of fundamental difference over the sort of last five to seven years.

Jonathan Licht:

And again, I talked about, um, the verticals of the channels and when we made that change, I think it became a lot clearer what we were and we weren't doing with certain sports. And I think at that point, our, and our responsibility to, to better reflect our audiences to better reflect the sporting landscape was, was much more in demand and you know, how we marketed ourselves, how we promoted ourselves, which just so a lot sort of more dedicated and, and central focus. So yeah, as I say, look, we do have very long-standing commitments for women sport. I think it would be difficult to argue that it was center-center, you know, all through our sort of 30 year history, but again, not to dismiss, you know, a, a lot of work that we, and again, these, you know, when I started one of the people that was most influential at Sky Sports was a lady called Sue Ashworth, who you may know, and she was a real champion for women's sport and she may have been around the senior table more of a, a lone voice, but that actually made her voice relatively more important.

And you know, and now when you look around the leadership team, there's no debate. There's no question it's, you know, it's just part of what we do. 

Sue Anstiss:

Brilliant. I'm ask you just quickly in terms of verticals, just explain that to an audience that might not be as familiar with…

Jonathan Licht:

I’ll explain it to myself as well. But we obviously, I, I, hopefully people are sort of, sort of at least loosely familiar with Sky Sports, the proposition and the channels. So we made a change a number of years ago, where we went from the numerical lineup of sky sports, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, where we moved to sort of genre based, dedicated destinations for certain sports and certain channels. We have a Premier League channel, a football channel, which where WSL, SPFL, AFL, we'll see it. We have a cricket channel, golf channel, Formula One. And then we have a couple of sort of, catch-all where we have a number of sports and we have a main event channel as well. So those are the verticals and really in sort of creating those homes, it was the opportunity for fans of a particular sport. So, you know, any time as a golf fan, I know where to go rather than thinking, well, is it, or is it going to be on 1, 2, 3 or four type thing?

Sue Anstiss:

And as a subscription business, fairly fan attitude and engagement is key. You've mentioned the fans there. So how have you seen that change? And have you seen that change in the last five to 10 years that we've talked about a shift there?

Jonathan Licht:

I think that was part of the reason that we made the change in the lineup you know, rather than presenting what we wanted to present. It was really we had to get a lot closer to what the customer wanted, how they wanted to engage. 

A sports fan doesn't look one particular way, so you've got to be, you've got to be multifaceted. So you've got to be able to sort of serve a super fan, give them very deep insights, keep going with the story, making sure that they can come in and access it whenever they want. And then, you know, as we look to be more accessible and inclusive, and I mean that in kind of sort of sporting terms, we perhaps need to think a, a little bit differently about how we present our sport and do it in a way where you can not necessarily be getting too deep to it, analytical, and perhaps in a more sort of broader,  entertaining, way.

Jonathan Licht:

And that, and that's something that particularly we, we are sort of facing into that question and that challenge at the moment, we've obviously all experienced this sort of a pretty unique couple of years where we, you know, it was a very operational heavy, for Sky Sports. We had more sport than we've ever had once it started back, having had no sport for the first time in our, in our careers and that was really challenging for the teams to, to deliver that. And there was a kind of a relentless pace about,  get it on the air, make sure it can happen safely, look after our people, make sure the environments are clean and safe and, and getting through that we're now hopefully, although maybe not fully, hopefully a little bit, you know, in, in a place, okay How do we move the story forward? how do we broaden our appeal? how do we get in front of more fans? So, so that's the challenge we're talking about. And, you know, I think people would, would sort of appreciate and know that we're sort of pretty synonymous with trying to really understand customers and fans and we are trying to do that and we really are,

Sue Anstiss:

And you talk positively about that kind of shift in who's around the board table and acceptance of women's sport across the business, but is it still a battle you’re fighting in some areas in terms of giving women's sport that, and that coverage?

Jonathan Licht:

I'd like to think not, I guess that the, kind of the, the slightly different thing for us, when we look at, we, we look at the industry because we are Sky Sports within Sky, and, you know, we are, we are there lots of divisions at Sky. You know I've been here for a long time, and you know, when you're interfaced with the marketing team or the entertainment team or the legal team, or the finance, you know, they didn't necessarily look like the people that were turning up for a Sky Sports meeting. and there was a, there was a freshness, there was a modernity, with respect to my colleagues to the conversations, to the environment.

Jonathan Licht:

You know, I used to always be more excited to go and have those meetings because they would be a bit different to the ones that we would have with the same group of people in and outside Sky Sports in the industry. So there's been that dynamic going on. So Sky, I feel like has, has kind of pulled us along as well as the sort of people I've wanted to be on that, on that journey. And I, I think when you look out in the industry, there've also been people that are on, have been on that journey, but perhaps at different paces and, and, you know, they'll have, they'll have their reasons. And, you know, so look from my perspective, I whilst I, I still see lots more to do. I don't feel, and again, I I'd be, I'd be careful as me saying this and let other people say it. I don't feel that there are barriers to the conversations and there, there, there are barriers to progress, but clearly more needs to be done and more needs to be done at a pace.

Sue Anstiss:

And you are clearly a strong male ally for women's sport, but I know in some cases, and we talked just then about that kind of journey, it can be a journey. So was there a moment for you when you realised the role you could play for women's sport?

Jonathan Licht:

Yeah, I guess a little bit, look, I think, you know, as you get more senior, clearly, I've gone around for a long time saying, well, it's a real responsibility having a senior… but it's actually true. And because of the interactions that you have outside of, of your work as well, you do kind of understand that. And, you know, over the years, I, I certainly won't have claimed to, to sort of over indexed on my share of getting involved with school and stuff like that. But I always remember conversations with mothers, talking about how they were coming back to netball and how they'd been engaging with netball on Sky and it's something they could do with their friends. And it was also something they could do with their daughters. And I always thought, like, that's not a conversation I've had a lot over the last 20 years, but that's really good, I like to have that conversation. Thank goodness I've got something to talk about, so otherwise I'm really struggling!  I've got two kids, they’re… 16 year old son now, 13 year old daughter.  Didn't play huge amounts of sports growing up. Unfortunately they inherited my, my sporting talent, but just didn’t even have my enthusiasm for sport. But, but I, again, I remember with my daughter probably about six or seven years ago, watching her play football on Sunday morning and, and a really sort of great group that she was with, you know, some really good players, some mixed players, but actually it was just being done in a really nice way. The coach was excellent, the environment was good they got to spend, you know, all the things that I look for in sport, enjoying myself, being part of a team, being social, but actually, you know, playing and, you know, trying to score, trying to, not to, to defend all that, you know, seeing my daughter sort of running up and down in a Nottingham Forest kit, there was nothing. I've probably more enjoyed more than that in my life, I have to say. I'm not sure whether I've answered the question, but, but, but there's clearly moments in my life where I can see situations that didn't exist, you know, in the first 20, 25 years of, of my life. My mother was a sports fan. She played tennis, she's plays golf. We watched a lot of sports together. My sister didn't play sport. I, the girls, I knew when I was younger, didn't really play sport that much. And I'm not saying that's representative that that's just my experience. I always found you know going around at the weekends. It always used to make me smile when I see people in their sports kits coming from a game on a Saturday or a Sunday morning.

It's, it's just something I like to see, cuz I think it's a real positive influence. And if we could be a part of that, you know, we used to have this phrase ‘inspiration for participation’, you know, without taking ourselves too seriously, if we could be a part of that, you know, who, who wouldn't want to be a part of that? You know, kind of bringing it back now, I guess into my role there is a responsibility the fact that I've been around at Sky for a long time means that I understand probably more than a few people, how Sky works. So when we are looking at an opportunity in a rights conversation or something, I know how to manage a conversation, not to bring it up as a surprise and say, oh look, there's a tender next week.

And we need to bid X number of billion in pounds. Yes or no. That's not gonna play very well. But actually to say, there's an opportunity that's gonna come up. And here's a really good story about why we think it makes a lot of sense, how we can build something, how we could be part of something exciting. We'll come back to you in a couple of months’ time, we'll, we'll bring our partner along. We, you know, so that is how I can see why role within Sky now where actually can, you know, be part of, of really creating something, significant within, within sport because you know, we feel passionately about it. We think Sky can be a really good partner and, and, and you know, we want to bring those opportunities to the table within Sky. 

Sue Anstiss:

You mentioned netball there, which was interesting as I was going to come on to talk about netball and Sky's obviously been a massive supporter of netball across so many years and that relationship's really evolved. And from the outside, it may not have felt, felt the beginning that netball would be a sport that would've appealed to that typical Sky subscriber. So I’m just interested to know why it was a sport that you chose and, and what, and then also, I guess, what the secret's been to building that success and that audience for netball.

Jonathan Licht:

Yeah. So, so I think it it's well, it's probably 16 years now. So I think 2006 was, was our first partnership with, with English Netball. You know, again, there was a sport, I think, where we saw an opportunity cause at that time and unlike the other, other women's sports that we'd have been involved with golf, rugby union, cricket, this was a, predominantly a women's only sport. And that was a point of difference. And I think we felt, felt that was important. We have felt a challenge of bringing that audience to Sky Sports because they don't expect to go to Sky Sports for netball or they don't expect to see it on Sky Sports. So that's been something that we've really been working on, um, over the last few years and how we just distribute the content and where we distribute it. But I think again, you know, it, it, it follows the sort of a, a lot of the same lenses, you know, why netball? Well, why?

Because we felt there was an opportunity for us to bring excellent coverage and do everything that we do for other sports. We thought that there was a willing partner, someone that was open to working with us with someone that was gonna commit behind that. And, you know, they absolutely have done. We felt there was an opportunity for the sport to grow. And I think we've seen that through the participation figures, we've we, you know, we felt there's an opportunity for sort of, again, for this inspiration from elite level performance. And again, you know, we've absolutely seen that. So it was a sport that had and has a lot going for it. 

Again, ‘cause we are long standing partners we tend to stick with our partners as long as they're happy to stick with us. So we did a, a new deal, it’s all..kind of the years go quite quickly, but we're in the second year of our, of our, of our new deal with netball you know, we showed every game when crowds couldn't be there.

We're still showing a hell of a lot of games. Now the team do an excellent job. It's produced to a very high quality. You know, again, we were just walking around the studios on Monday evening here and you know, at 5.30, we've got teams of people working on live netball. That's, you know, there's not too many people that have that kind of level of commitment to, to sport around the world, but you know, we're absolutely, we're absolutely delighted to partner with netball. And again, you know, we want to be part of a growing story.

Sue Anstiss:

I realise you can't do everything, but I'm a massive fan of women's rugby and Premier 15s. So my personal question to you is why has rugby not been a sport you've chosen to support and the way you have those others and asking for a friend, is that something that might change in the future?

Jonathan Licht:

Yeah, we, we, we sort of get a version of that question around rugby quite a lot. And I, and I, and I'd be sort of be very open with you. You know, it's not a question of Sky Sports not choosing rugby. It, it might be the other way round a little bit we've shown virtually every form of rugby over the years. You know, we were, the home of the, the World Cup with us in, in, in 2014. That was on, that was on Sky Sports. We've shown Six Nations, the European cup, Prem Rug – I’m doing lists again, it's dangerous, I'm gonna jump out of that

and we've been part of lots of commercial processes around rugby. We just haven't necessarily been successful we just renewed our Sanzaar deal. It was important for us to stay in the sport cause we absolutely respect the sport, the size of the sport, the importance that it has in the UK, the opportunity, so again, look, we, we, we absolutely are not out of rugby. We always looking at the opportunity to be in sport. So, so hopefully those opportunities will come around. Look, rugby's doing a lot working on its calendar, working on how the, the women's game fits alongside, where's it played,  the venues, all that kind of stuff. And I, and I think there's, you know, there's a real opportunity, still ahead for rugby and, you know, absolutely hope there'll be an opportunity for us, for us to certainly look at it'll be part of a conversation going forward. 

Sue Anstiss:

Your relationship with BBC for both the FAWSL and the Hundred has been fantastic to see and hugely powerful in driving those new audiences. We saw that in the Women's Sport Trust recent, Visibility, Uncovered research. so I just wondered why it was important to you to forge that relationship with a free to air broadcaster around women's sport?

Jonathan Licht:

Again a couple of answers to that. So firstly, that, that ultimately the rights holder decides how they want to split the rights and, and, and then the people have gotta get comfortable with it. And, and then those both instances that it was absolutely something that we felt would be beneficial to the partnership if we did it together with the BBC and I think that's been proven and we hope that that'll be continued to be proven. I think, I think there's a, there's kind of a bit of a change generally at, at Sky over the years is kind of okay, without wishing to sort of undermine any of the previous strategies or anything, but a maturity to how to, how Sky is operating as a business. You know that it doesn't all have to be in one place. There is, there is a way that actually you can get the benefits or of, you know, our platform, you know, the everything that we do around Sky Sports News, everything we're doing in the buildup, everything we're doing on digital, but actually we can complement that by doing something or having, having the content, shown more broadly, you know, there'll be other examples and things that you wouldn't necessarily have expected. And my boss always talks to the 2019 men's cricket world cup final. The fact that we showed that on Channel 4, he always talks about that as a kind of a confidence in our brand, you know, and, and I was, you know, I don't wanna give too much away cause everyone sort of talks about universally, what a good decision it was, but I wouldn't necessarily have been at the front of the queue saying less, absolutely do that. And I was like, well, where were these guys you know, when we were showing these games at three in the morning and England were getting knocked out in the group stages, no one was clamoring for anything then! So there's that con - internal dialogue. But I think we, we are sort of more comfortable. We, we, we understand the broader benefit.

We understand where there's moments of national importance. We understand what we can bring, but we also understand what other people can bring. And you know, whether it's BBC, whether it's Channel 4, whether it's ITV or whoever it is, you know, there, there are different things that the partners can bring. And I think, I, I think what we, you know, our, our basic view is, you know, we're, we're, we're open for business. We're open for a conversation. If you, if there's something that is mutually beneficial, we talk about, talked about this quite a lot over the years in sports and I've talked about is, you know, sport has so often, you know, instinct is to fight and defend rather than think what's the mutual benefit here? What can really, what are the victories for common sense? So, you know, that's, that's kind of how we want to paint ourselves more and more.

Sue Anstiss:

I love that. And the collaborative benefit for all that. Everybody benefits from that too. Yeah. Yeah. Um, can we move on to talk a little bit about social media? I loved a as a recent response on Twitter, when someone asked Sky Sports to create a separate account for women's football and the person handling your social media that day posted “We’re Sky Sports this is sport.  We’ll post whatever we like, which I loved…

Jonathan Licht:

I think the first response was give that person a pay rise. Wasn't it? That that's the bit that got forwarded onto me. Yeah!

Sue Anstiss:

So I wonder whether you are giving your team more freedom to respond in that way on social, you know, it's an interesting space, isn't it? 

Jonathan Licht:

Look again, I'm very comfortable to say that I, I am not the master of all the domain of, you know, use the word domain there so that we have an excellent, editorial team and an excellent team that, that, that, that are operating authentically in that space. And look again, it's back to this maturity point that the audiences that you engage with, they expect certain things now they expect an honesty they expect, you know, so, so if that's how people are reacting and acting on those platforms, then let's be that,  let's not pretend let's not sort of sit behind a very kind of corporate veneer, cause people will kind of sit through that. We have that, you know, we have that conversational all the time, whether it's, you know, how we talking press releases or how we're talking, you know, talk to people how you would expect them to be talked to, you know, is it a conversation you'd have in a bar or a restaurant or a pub rather than, you know what you're sitting across the table presenting PowerPoint in. So, we encourage our teams, obviously again, that's use that word. There is a profile and a responsibility to what we do, so it's not a free for all but we are comfortable certainly when they're sort of pushing back on on sort of certain, you know, attitudes that we just think you've got no place, sort of have never had a place, but certainly don't now they then absolutely, go for your lives. Yeah.

Sue Anstiss:

And moving on with that, I guess we talk a lot about racism in sport, especially football and, and that blocking and reporting followers who post racist comments in the Sky Sports stream. And as, as part of the Hate Won’t Win initiative, you and the BBC stated if we see it in our social feeds, we will call it out. So I wonder whether you think Sky Sports could be doing more around misogyny and, and sexist posts In this industry? 

ionathan Licht:

Yeah, definitely. It's something we are talking about and something that we're, try you know, it's, deeply, deeply depressing that this is it people's everyday realities. you know, anything that we can be doing to change that situation is something that we wanna be a part, you know, we, we had a new reporter starting this week. I, I won't name her, but saw she posted, you know, how proud she was to be, you know, continuing her career and, and you know, what she'd done and now how this was the next step. And she then posted what the first response is like, oh my - you know, but thankfully, then what comes in is 99% positive behind that, but you just don't need to have that whole piece, you know, it should, should, you know, just go without, you know, go without that kind of bump. So, yeah.

Sue Anstiss:

And what do you do in that case then? So what does…,  can Sky block, or is there anything you can do to take more action to show….?

Jonathan Licht:

Look I think…yeah, look there, there's what, there's what we can do and what we are doing, but actually at the level, the volume of interactions, the amount that people are posting, the amount that's coming back, it is when I say it's, it's more than a full-time job, it's multiple people's full-time jobs. And I think what we, what we're looking at is, you know, is their tech that help, that can help us in this, you know, but, but again, that's, that has certain limitations. So look, it's def - it's definitely a space that we're active in. And again, it's, it's, it's, it's just, it's part of, it's part of the, the journey and the story that we want to, we want to tell that, you know, this is not acceptable. We are going to be part of something that's more positive. We're gonna be part of something that's gonna make a change and ensure that, you know, let's not a big deal out of it,use this is just sort of basic standards and expectations that people should have about how they're going about their lives, that they shouldn't have to deal with this nonsense, but again, it's not my reality, but, but I'm, I'm, I'm very aware that unfortunately it's, it's a lot of people's realities and just not acceptable.

Sue Anstiss:

And you gave that one instance of the female presenter, but terms of women presenting and covering male games in all sports, is there less backlash, do you think from an audience than there used to be in the past?

Jonathan Licht:

I can answer that question, but I'll turn it back to you. You, I mean, I have to believe that that is absolutely the case. Clearly there are gonna be voices, but the voices that we are trying ignore, you know, that will always just be out there hating or whatever you're doing. You know, again at Sky Sports, we're kind of comfortable that people don't come on social media to tell us we're doing a wonderful job.  - be nice if they did, but, but, but we, but we are kind of, we are kind of over that. That's not the case. So you’re kind of sort of blocking out that. But, but, but we just know with the caliber of people that we are employing, you know, we, we are fortunate enough to, to, to show some of the most significant global sports rights there are. And you know, how we present that I think is as good power for pound, as anyone in the world. And that's always been something that we've been very proud of and how we've evolved, the people that are presenting it and making them representative. I, I actually think, you know, there aren't questions in my mind about the quality of, of the people that we are engaging across the board, everyone that is on Sky Sports is on because they're excellent and they're deserving of that opportunity. And they demonstrate that every time they go on air, but I mean, I'd be interested in, in, in your take on that.

Sue Anstiss:

Well, you've obviously had many women, we've seen fantastic women in front of camera, which we're talking about there in recent years, but in terms of that pipeline of where they come from, I've seen some really quite shocking stats. So I think it's only 10% of students on sports journalism courses are women. So I just wondered in terms of recruitment and that pipeline of journalists coming through. Yeah. How you are finding that at the moment and what you can do. If there is anything you can do to help with that.

Jonathan Licht:

I I'm happy to talk about that again. You know, it, it's not my day in day out expertise in what I'm doing, but you know, again, we, we've spent a lot of time over the last couple of years, looking at the pipeline, looking at how we recruit, we recruit things like the language when we are recruiting,  the networks that we're using, you know, things that lots of other businesses and companies are doing and things that people will rightly say that we should have been doing 20, 30 years ago. but we're doing it and we are seeing the benefit of what we're doing it. I think, again, the example that you give around the, um, the journalists and qualification, you know, a little bit of a change, and this is something I talked to to, um, Mark Alford, who, who runs Sky Sports news and, and Steve Smith, who's our executive director of content and they were talking about, actually, let's get the people in Sky Sports then help them get the qualification. And I think that will be a way that we can sort of open ourselves up more than rather say, let's put the bar a bit higher and then be drawing down potentially unfortunately on a, on a smaller pool. So I think that's a difference that we can make to, to, to open up those opportunities. So look we are clearly having some success and we are bringing more people in to Sky Sport that represent our audience is better than have traditionally done.

Sue Anstiss:

Excellent. That's good news. You and I talk a lot about the importance of women working across sport. And I know internally at Sky, you've been a big champion for Sky Sports’ support of the Women's Sport Collective, so I thank you for that. And the collective’s ambition’s obviously to create more of a gender equal sports society. So I wonder, are you happy with the gender balance across the whole of Sky Sports organisation at present?

Jonathan Licht:

No, not happy. No. because we are not, we are not where we would want to be. Sky, you know, Sky as an organisation at, we, we always talk about targets and whether targets is the right, sets the right set of behaviors or whether it's, you know, and actually, you know, we do have certain targets, but actually really what we're we're about is, is, is having the right culture and inclusive culture.  There is not the parity amongst the team, you know, around the leadership table is not as balanced as I would like, like it to be, you know, going through the organisation. I would say there's probably more, uh, there's stronger representation. There are no longer areas in Sky Sports where maybe 10 years ago you'd go in and there'd be no women - that doesn't exist. But, but I, I still think, well, I not, I think I know that there's not enough, senior representation for women in Sky Sport.

And that's something that we will continue to be focused on and, and being part of the Collective, having, the opportunity for our teams to be networked, to show Sky Sports  to the industry, to, to again, you know, something I'm very conscious of that,  whether you say the industry isn't big or it is big, I don't really know what your take on it,  again, it depends where you kind of are in it, but people will have a view on Sky Sports and Sky Sports is, you know, through one lens, it's kind of been a leader and it's been, this it's been that, but for through other lenses, it's kind of been this big beast and how accessible has it been and how available has it been? And, and, you know, maybe you had an experience a number of years ago or so, and, and really, you know, whether that experience was representative good or bad, let let's see, but actually, you know, take the opportunity to, to engage again with us, understand what we're trying to do and the direction that we say, I hope the credentials are there for people that aren't in Sky Sports to see what we're trying to do and certainly if you're, if you're in the building, hopefully it's kind of, it's beyond doubt.  

Sue Anstiss:

And whilst I am clearly a massive fan of sky and all you doing in women's sport, the lack of female representation on the Sky Sports app and the homepage of the website can be frustrating. And I think when I put these questions together, there wasn't a female sports story on the homepage that day, it is much better today, I have checked. But I guess what needs to change for that to change. Cause there's only one element, but it's quite a public facing side, isn't it?

Jonathan Licht:

Yeah, no, look, I, I, I, I take that on board, and I do know, I, I, I would like to think today, we'd be talking about the WSL game that we've got tonight, obviously the big story in the world of tennis that broke overnight, the Cricket World Cup. So there will be, but - 

Sue Anstiss:

Six Nations is on there, I have checked, it’s all there.

Jonathan Licht:

Six Nations? OK, good. We're happy that Six Nations is getting the coverage that, that it deserves here. So look, I, I get it. I get the question. It's a challenge that, that we will always set the team. I think we cover a lot of sport.  To be 50 50 to be representative, I think it's still quite a journey from where we are, but it doesn't have to be 50 50. It could be 90:10…  

Sue Anstiss 

I'll take 30. Yeah.

Jonathan Licht:

OK. Exactly. Well, look, I think we get it. We understand, the challenge is there with our team. I I'd like to think that people can see progress. I'd like to think that people can see that, you know, we are committed to women's sport and that, and that's gonna be a big part. You know, our digital audience is big. Our digital audience, you know, to your point is actually more male skewed than our linear audience. That is a challenge for us, ‘cause actually we talk about younger audiences a lot and lots of our younger, a volume of our younger audiences come in through digital. So again, if that pipeline is being skewed, more male, that doesn't bode particularly well for our ability to bring in, you know, broader and wider audiences to Sky Sports over the longer term. So look, it's so we're very conscious of, we, we kind of, we, we sort of take that on the chin and, and, and we, you know, we are always trying to do our best

Sue Anstiss:

And a male audience is not a female…not an audience for female sport

Jonathan Licht:

No, it’s not, sorry.  When I talk about that, I talk about in our, we spend a lot of time talking about ‘women's sport’. We spend a lot of time at Sky Sports thinking from the broad female sports fans and the opportunity for us to broaden our appeal, whether that's watching Formula One or watching netball or watching the WSL or the premier league for us, you know, we, we, we don't really make the distinction, but we want to have more sports fans generally. Yeah.

Sue Anstiss:

And I guess, have you ever considered taking bold action, or publicly stating that every day you might have 30% of coverage of women's sport on your homepage or it, it does that occur to you to almost set something like that to lead the way?

Jonathan Licht:

Look again, we talked a little bit earlier about targets and, and how that can draw behaviors and change. So look again, we think about that, we take on when of that brings the, you know, we do have to, we have to serve our audiences. We have to develop our audiences as well and make sure that they're, you know, open and engaging with everything. Again, in volume terms, I would like to think we are offering more women sport than anyone.  Proportionally. I accept that we are not at that level that perhaps our ambition should be.

Sue Anstiss:

And I had a really interesting chat with Ugo Monye on the podcast about the slight dilemma of putting well known male sports broadcasters on screen to report on women's sport. And whilst it helps with profile and can bring credibility to women's sport, especially in the eyes of other men, it sometimes maybe that those female presenters then get sidelined. I wonder what you think, what your approach would be there?

Jonathan Licht:

I, I always very happy to listen to his views on anything and every time I hear him, I just have this sort of overwhelming feel of, of jealousy that we don't engage him, or we don't have the opportunity to engage him. So look, I, I understand. I think again, I, I think we're sort of comfortable that there's the right balance. That there's the right editorial relevance. I don't, I, don't think there's a, there's a right or a wrong answer here. I think again, I think you look at the opportunities and you look at the programming, you look at the content and you think, you know, what is going to be additive to the audience? Who's going to be insightful. Who's going to help you tell the stories?  Who's going to bring attention promotion to what you're doing. So, so look, I, I I'm, I would be comfortable that there's a blend, but also conscious that you don't want to be reducing opportunities. So I absolutely trust our teams that they've got the right mindset, it to be challenging themselves and thinking about what the right questions and what, what it is that the audiences are looking for in each, in each circumstance. So I think again, I'd like to think we, we kind of get that one right more often than not.

Sue Anstiss:

 And Ugo, and actually Ian Wright before him told me how powerful it can be for well-established male presenters and pundits to actively support the lesser-known female colleagues on social media. So retweeting and quote tweeting helps to increase their profiles and, and confirm their expertise, again, often in the eyes of male sports fans. So is something you ever discuss with your high profile male presenters at Sky, or would you encourage them to do more of that?

Jonathan Licht:

Look, we absolutely would. I think, I guess there's a bit of a dynamic that we have going on in, within our team is that the, you know, that there isn't probably the crosspollination across the sports because, because each sport is so busy with its own sports, but football within football, cricket within cricket, I think there's, I think there's absolutely the respect between all of our talent that cover the sports. They understand that there's a reason why that they're at Sky Sports and that's because they've got a lot to offer. And everything I observe is that the teams more and more than ever get, get this idea of supporters, collaborative allies, and can see some of the challenges that, that some of our other colleagues are facing and are probably more, can be not always, but sometimes more confident in the space carrying a, a bigger voice in terms of just the numbers of people that are engaging with them. And, and absolutely yeah. Would would be looked to be, um, supporting of their colleagues. Absolutely.  I see that and, and I would definitely encourage you as well.

Sue Anstiss:

You're clearly a fantastic male ally for women's sport, but I wonder how you personally keep learning and evolving in this space.

Jonathan Licht:

I don't wanna overclaim anything at this stage. But what I will, what I will be very comfortable saying is I'm open mind and I'm, I'm absolutely ambitious to, to take the opportunity. Again, my bosses talk, you know, talk to us and say, you know, what do you want to be famous for as a team? Who wouldn't wanna be famous for bringing positive change to sport in this country? You know, who wouldn't want to be famous for bringing, you know, making sport more accessible for encouraging more people to engage, to watch, to attend and kind of when you talk about it, the like that it, it does become a bit of a no brainer. You know, I am pretty confident in the, the leadership team at Sky Sports that people are coming about it for the right reasons, because they want to be part of something positive. Cause they see the opportunity because it's the right thing for us to be doing. And I can genuinely say it is something that we are talking about almost constantly, you know, what more can we be doing? How can we be supportive? And I know for some people that's can be quite difficult to believe because they say, okay, where's the action what's, you know, and, and there is action, but there can always be more action. So, you know, we, we take it very seriously personally and collectively, and we see it as a really big opportunity and, and we, we are not going to be taking backwards steps. So, you know I hope people can see that. I hope some want to be a part of that. And, and, you know, to, some of the ground that, that we've covered, you know, collaborate, partner, engage, come and see us, invite us in let's kind of, let's do it all. Let’s  act collectively as an industry and let's encourage each other and kind of bring each other along.

Sue Anstiss:

Thanks to Jonathan for taking the time to talk to me for the podcast. You can head to our website at fearlesswomen.co.uk to hear more from other male allies, including Ian Wright and Ugo Monye. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective a free network for all women working in sport, that's kindly supported by Sky Sports. You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport. And there's also more about my book Game On! The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport. Thank you once again, to Sport England for backing The Game Changers through the National Lottery, Sam Walker, who does a great job as our executive producer, along with Rory Auskerry on sound production. Finally, thank you to my brilliant colleague, Kate Hannon who does so much with me at Fearless Women.  Do come and say hello on social media, where you will find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook @SueAnstiss.  The Game Changers, fearless women in sport.