The Game Changers

Orla Chennaoui: The power of being authentic as a woman reporting sport

May 10, 2022 Sue Anstiss Season 10 Episode 5
The Game Changers
Orla Chennaoui: The power of being authentic as a woman reporting sport
Show Notes Transcript

Orla Chennaoui is an extraordinary woman who has many talents including being a multilingual TV sports presenter. 

Having worked at Sky News and Sky Sports, Orla is now a Lead Presenter for Eurosport, working across cycling, MotoGP and the Olympics.

With her background in hard-news and investigations, Orla has always had an open and frank approach to sports reporting whether that’s in front of the camera or hosting podcasts and writing regular columns for Rouleur magazine and the Metro newspaper.

Amongst her many accolades Orla’s also just been nominated as sports presenter of the year at the Sports Journalists Awards 2022.

In this fascinating episode we explore Orla’s work as a broadcaster, including her move from news to sports presenting, the perception of female broadcasters and why it’s been so important that she retains her authentic style on screen.

Ahead of a massive summer for women’s cycling with the Tour de France Femmes in July, we discuss the growth in coverage and whether cycling needs to be re-packaged to attract new audiences.

Orla talks openly about why she stopped drinking, as she, and podcast host Sue Anstiss, celebrate the huge positives of living a life without alcohol.

With thanks to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Orla Chennaoui: The power of being authentic as a woman reporting sport
 

Sue Anstiss:

Hello, and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport, what can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond.  Before I introduce my guest today, I'd like to say a really big thank you to our partners Sport England, who support The Game Changers through a national lottery award. Today, I'm talking to an extraordinary woman who has many talents, including being a multilingual TV sports presenter. Orla Chennaoui is now a lead presenter for Eurosport working across cycling, motor GP and the Olympics. Her background in hard news and investigations means that Orla always has an open and frank approach to sports reporting, whether that's in front of the camera or hosting podcasts and writing regular columns for a Rouleur magazine and the Metro newspaper. again Amongst her many accolades, Orla has also just been nominated as sports presenter of the year, a sports journalist awards, 2022. So congratulations there! Orla, when people think of you, they may think of you broadcasting, writing, podcasting and your love of cycling and the Olympics, but they may not think of you as a champion athlete, but you are, so can you, can you tell us a little bit more about that too?

Orla Chennaoui:

Certainly Sue, thank you so much of that introduction, I feel completely humbled. I should say. I don't think anybody ever thinks of me and certainly not as any kind of an athlete, never mind a champion athlete., I used to be a track and field athlete as a kid. It was such a huge part of my life growing up. And, and I think only now that I'm considerably older, I realise how formative it's been in my character, my strength and my discipline, I think. But yeah, I was track and field as a kid and a triple jumper randomly. And every time I say it people's eyes sort of pop outta their head because I think it's maybe one of the most random disciplines to do. But, yeah, I was twice All-Ireland Champion in triple jump, as great as my athletics career ever got. And I dreamt for years of, competing at the Olympic games and representing Ireland at the Olympic games and it never happened, but, it has led me into this beautiful career. That's been actually considerably more rewarding, So I'm very grateful for that, but, my athletic days are long behind me Sue!

Sue Anstiss:

And did you come from a very sport loving family too?

Orla Chennaoui:

I did. I did. Sport was a massive part of where I grew up really. It's a massive part of our culture. I grew up in Northern Ireland in rural, Northern Ireland and in a very Irish community, a very Catholic community. And so Gaelic sports were the heartbeat really of our entire village and our entire network of villages. And it was my mum and still is my mum in particular. My dad is a huge, Gaelic fan as well, but my mom in particular,  is obsessed with Gaelic football.  and so we, we would spend Sundays, any Sunday we could, we'd be following, especially Derry, around the place and all of their progress through the All-Ireland. As a family we'd pack into the car and we'd take our,  our flask and our sandwiches wrapped in tin foil, and we get to the football match and open the boot and sit in the boot and, and eat our sandwiches and drink our tea before we went into the match, with our flags and dress and red and white cause that's the color of Derry

So sport was a massive part of our family life. My, my siblings all played sport to, to varying degrees. But yeah, I think for me, because of that community element of it, and because it was such a connection between all of our villages, you know, I, I wasn't just from one village, I was from a network of villages that played against each other. So it's always been a really important, bond of, community and connection for me sport. And I think that's where that comes from just from my childhood experience of it.

Sue Anstiss:

And you studied Law and French at university, and I have to point out, I think you speak, is it six or seven languages? Uh,

Orla Chennaoui:

Ha! I'm really, I'm really, I'm not being falsely humble. I dabble in languages, but if you were to put me on the spot with anyone, I'd need a little second. So I speak fluent French cause my husband is French, Moroccan. I speak Dutch now, because I live in the Netherlands. I've gotten my German to level where I've been able to broadcast in it and I've done like live red carpet interviews in, in Portuguese and Italian. I could brush up on Spanish if I needed to. I can't remember any others, but I try, I just, I enjoy communicating. See, that's the thing. And so I don't care if I get language and grammar and syntax wrong. But I, yeah, I like learning languages. I find it just very satisfying. It's fun. Isn't it? I like having little secrets as well. I like, I like communicating with people in secret and other people don’t know what you're talking about. Sneaky!

Sue Anstiss:

I like that. It's especially impressive. I'm a 55 year old woman who just started speaking or learning Spanish on Duolingo last week, actually with my daughter. So I’m coming to it late, but…

Orla Chennaoui 

It's never too late though. Is it? It never is. Duolingo’s a great tool, I really enjoy it. I do that sometimes just for fun. If I, if I've got time to kill, I'll just go on Duolingo and pick a language, which is incredibly sad of me in my spare time

Sue Anstiss:

No – it’s good fun!  And was law ever a serious consideration as a career path for you?

Orla Chennaoui:

It sounds awful to say it was a bit of a backup. It was a bit of a safety net, really my dad wanted me to study law and I just thought, well, that's a good profession to have. I always did really want to be a journalist, but there were journalists that I admired who had studied law. And so I thought, well, maybe that's a good way into it. I didn't really know why. I know now why, when I, when I look back at the grounding that law gave me and the analytical ability that it gave me, but I also wanted to live in France for a year cause I thought that'd be really cool! And if you studied law with French, then you got to go to French university. If you studied French with something else and you had to go and teach in a French school and I didn't want to teach in a school, I wanted to be wholly irresponsible, so I thought, well, if I study law in French in France, then I can just do my own thing. So that was part of the reason as well, which is terrible for four years of study. But, I do love a good argument Sue and that's why I thought law would be good for me. I love a good debate. I love getting my head into, proper discussions and I thought a law degree would be a good way to win a few arguments. It hasn't really been, but that was my, my entire thinking on it.

Sue Anstiss:

And did you go straight from there, from law then to postgraduate in journalism? Was it that kind of natural progression? 

Orla Chennaoui:

Yeah, I went straight in, yeah, I didn't do any of these gap years or whatever.  I went it into a postgrad in journalism and then, then that was it. And then, knew I would fall in love with that,  industry and that craft and that trade. And I did. And haven't regretted it once.

Sue Anstiss:

And you were both in print and then broadcast journalism and you literally went up and down United Kingdom from Scotland to Southampton, but what eventually took you to Sky News?

Orla Chennaoui:

Oh! the opportunity to work at Sky news is what took me there really. As you say, I sort of travelled around and awful lot. I did my postgrad in Edinburgh and then, myself and my husband moved down to Berkshire. He had a placement year there, so I worked in radio down there. Then I worked at television in Southampton and then I moved back up to Edinburgh and worked in television there. And I just saw the job advertised for Ireland correspondent at Sky news. And I was just about to get married and we lived in Edinburgh and, and the job meant moving to Belfast. And so I applied for it thinking I wouldn't get it in a million years and I didn't want to think about getting it because obviously it would be, not the most conventional start, shall we say, to married life to leave your husband within two months, but I did get it. And that is what I did!  But it was really just, yeah, it was the opportunity to work at Sky News really. It was an honour and, and I knew it would be incredible grounding and the best that there is really. 

Sue Anstiss:

And, and where did the switch come into the sports journalism side?

Orla Chennaoui:

Well, as I say, I always wanted to be a journalist and I actually never thought about being a sports journalist, even with all my sporting background. I just never considered it. I wanted to be a war correspondent. That was my dream, I wanted to be Kate Adie and later Orla Guerin that was a path I was trying to go down, and news it's brutal. It's a, it's really, really, really difficult and not just the environment, but the stories that you're dealing with.

You can shut yourself off to the tragedy of humanity for a long time and you have to, if you're a news journalist and then it just felt a little bit too much for me really and I wanted something that was a bit more uplifting. And so the, London Olympics came along and my boss at the time, Simon Cole had gone to Beijing for the Olympic games and just fell in love with everything to do with the Olympic games and decided that we needed an Olympics correspondent at Sky News. And so I thought, well, that's right up my street, it's got the sport, but it's also got the politics and the finance and, it was much more than just a sports job. So I went for that and luckily got it. And then that was it. I started to do much more sport, alongside the, the politics and the finance. And, after the Olympic games, I just decided there, there's no way I'm going back to news. I'm going to work in sport, somehow or another and that's what I did. I just absolutely fell in love with everything to do with it really.

Sue Anstiss:

And what was it like Sky Sports then for a young female broadcaster, especially as you arrived around the time of this kind of sexism scandal with Richard Keys and Andy Grey how was that experience for you at that time?

Orla Chennaoui:

Do you know what, Sky Sports and Sky Sports News where I primarily worked, I think it's had quite a bad rep over the years and I think the women are undervalued by the public sometimes, because there's a glamour to it and there's a look to it. And I, and I have never felt more supported than I did at Sky Sports News. I was entirely given every single tool I needed to do proper sports journalism, and I was always championed by my boss. My gender in that newsroom was never an issue. Andy Cairns who ran Sky Sports News at the time and Barney Francis who came in, at the time of that scandal and sort of swept it all clean to a certain extent, they were both just amazing champions of equality and everybody's got a different experience, so I can't speak for anybody else, but for me personally, I had every opportunity that I felt I deserved in there. 

 

And it was a fantastic environment to work in for me, it was absolutely fantastic. And I, and I wouldn't have a single bad word to say about Sky Sports and Sky Sports news. I felt they were, fantastically supportive and continue to be. So when I, I, and I do wish sometimes that the wider audience and maybe fellow journalists would, would look at the women, on television in particular, you know, on screen in there and give them the respect that they deserve, because they are excellent at what they do.

Sue Anstiss:

Fantastic and fantastic to hear you, you know, be so clear about that too.  Sky Sport's been a fantastic supporter of us and the Women's Sport Collective and all we're doing, so I think I, I perhaps had some of those perceptions myself historically, and as I've got to know them more and see more of their doing, I definitely changed my views even in the last year or so.

Orla Chennaoui:

Yeah, and I have to say, even Sue, , since I've left Sky Sports news, even it is the, it is my female colleagues who've been in touch to support primarily.  The guys as well and they're fantastic. The guys are all brilliant, but there is a.. I always felt  a sense of sisterhood in there and, and a connection with the other woman. And, and they've proven that by being so supportive of me in different, things, and you mentioned that I, that I was nominated for Sports presenter of the year and, and the number of messages I got from girlfriends in there, it was just brilliant and genuine and heartfelt and, and what women should be for each other, I think, in this industry. So I'm glad you've had that experience as well.

Sue Anstiss:

I've spoken to other female sports broadcasters on the podcast like Gabby Logan, and Elly Oldroyd and Laura Woods who talk about having to work harder than their male colleagues to prove themselves. Is that something you found through sport?

Orla Chennaoui :

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and I say, how, how wonderfully supportive the newsroom was, but the wider world isn't like that, you know, and I, I work primarily in cycling and cycling has changed a lot, even in the time that I've been in it, but it is a very traditional male, white European sport still. And when I started in cycling in particular, it was very challenging to be taken seriously and partly because I didn't want to change who I am to be able to fit in. And I would turn up to bike races in dresses and wedged heels while everybody else was in pedal pushers and polo shirts, you know, and obviously all the guys are in jeans and polo shirts, but I didn't, I, I didn't want to stand out. That's not why I was doing it, but I wanted to be me, but obviously then it meant that, I say, obviously it shouldn't be obvious at all, but it did mean that that people questioned my presence and my credibility and, and why I was there, you know, people would say, well, why are you into cycling and there's this assumption that you're there because you're trying to get a man, you know, or you're… whatever it might be. But I remember one of the team bosses who I have an awful lot of affection and respect for and he said this in, in a really respectful way at the time, but I was standing outside the team buses at the Giro D’Italia,  the Tour of Italy and we were in the mountains and it was a beautiful sunny day. And I was there again in a short dress and wedge heels. And he came laughing over to me and all the guys were standing around, waiting for an interview with him and he just made a beeline for me, came straight to me and laughed. And he said, ‘oh, Orla, you, you look like you're going to a party!’  And I laughed back. And I said, ‘I always dress, like, I'm going to a party because you never know when there's going to be one.’ And he laughed and he gave me the interview before everybody else, you know, so in the end, I've broken through and I know I've broken through, and I'm not going to pretend that I don't know that, but I… it's been harder work. And, and I've said before, I'm grateful really for having to work harder because it has made me better at what I do. And even now, I know there is no room for complacency. I just can't get things wrong. I just can't be good enough. And I, and I can't be as good as the men.

I always have to be better because otherwise you're seen as taking somebody else's place but I'm grateful that I have to work harder because I want to be better. I don't want to be as good as anyone else I want to be better. So, or at least not, not in compare in comparison with anyone else in comparison with myself, I want to be better I than I was before. And, um, having that fear of, of being brought down I guess, is, is a good, um, motivation in that respect really.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned, I guess, wearing dresses and so on to events, and you do get attention for what you wear on screen. So how important has it been you, to you to be more distinctive about your appearance as you appear?

Orla Chennaoui:

I don't know if it's important to be distinctive to me, it's important to be genuine and to be authentic.. And when I started on Euro Sport in particular, it is the home of cycling. And it is, it has been in the past at least very traditional and so wearing different clothes and funky hair and makeup was a big deal you know, and I got an awful lot of, negative attention and, and mainly people saying, why, why are you bothering? Why are you doing that? and Eurosport have always just been entirely supportive because they know I'm good at my job.

But it matters to me because I am a woman in sport. And, I've always wanted to see a version of me in sport to know that I belong. You know, I say how much I grew up with sport, but I grew up with it knowing it wasn't really my domain.  I was just carving a little place for myself in it, but I'd watch television coverage of football. And it was always the man talking. And so you feel like you are an invited guest in that rather than in someone who necessarily belongs. And so for me, I just want to be a representation of a different kind of sports fan, you know, and I want to show women in particular that you can care about how you look and you can love sport, and you can get sweaty and grimy and dirty and still want to put on some lipstick, you know, and it's not this exclusive to me, and it's not, it's not something that's either frivolous or too serious, you know?

And I feel like whenever I became a mother, I had, I think a lot of new moms in particular have a bit of an identity crisis and I had a massive identity crisis, which is linked in with, postnatal depression and all sorts. And I didn't know if I'd ever be me again, you know, I felt like all of a sudden, I went from being Orla to, as it was then, Eve's mom. So I'm, Eve's mom. I don't have my own name anymore and finding my sense of style again, as a mum was a really important part of that. And I, and I have found that with other mums, actually, that, you know, you are wearing pregnancy clothes for such a long time. And then afterwards you're like, well, what's the fashion now? How do I dress? And so for all of those reasons, you know, I want to show mums, you can dress how you, like, you know, mums in your forties dress, how you like dress like you're 20, because who cares, you know? 

Sue Anstiss:

I love that. I love that. And you talk about that women being stylish on screen, and we think about Gabby Logan and Denise Lewis, Alex Scott. So I think that is changing when you think about the women that we're now seeing presenting sport

Orla Chennaoui:

Massively. And I find, and I find that really powerful, you know, and I love Alex Scott in particular her, her Insta feed. I love that. And I'm so glad that she now exists and she's not doing that because it legitimises it. And, and I think, now we don't get so much of the shock and horror at dressing, how you like and being sassy as well as being intelligent. Because, you know, I do remember one boss saying to me once you know, we don't show knees, and in particular not you, you're supposed to be the serious one. You're supposed to give us credibility. And I laughed at the time and I wish I hadn't laughed. I kept wearing short skirts. but I, I should have said I can be credible and wear short skirts. It doesn't detract from my intelligence. If, if you've got an issue with that, that's your issue. It's not mine. You know, I still have my law degree. I still speak several languages. I've still, I've still proven myself in sport over and over again. And if I choose to have all of that in my armory and wear a short skirt in heels, then that's for me. So yeah, I do think it matters.

Sue Anstiss:

Very powerful, very powerful. I’m glad I put those questions in. That's really good. You moved to Amsterdam for your husband's job, I believe a few years ago. And, and I know you've become a cyclist too. I loved watching you with Laura Kenny, your first ride at the Velodrome, because I did it myself off a few years ago. And your video perfectly summed up how terrifying it is. So how was it for you and have you done it again since then? 

Orla Chennaoui:

No,I haven't done it again actually, but I would love to, I was absolutely terrified and here's the thing, right? I had an awful day that day. And I had a late night, the night before and I was developing these allergies and sometimes my face swells up, well, I woke up that morning, Sue with a face like a balloon, like, so somebody had stuck a pump in my mouth and, and just pumped my face up and so I was, I was trauma-  I didn't know what was going on. I looked like elephant woman. So anyway, but, but Laura had offered to give me a track session and I thought, well, I know this is going to be on camera. Like I looked like I've been to a plastic surgeon, you know, because my lips were massive and my face was massive. But I thought, but I can't, I, I can't let my vanity and ego at the fact, I look weird detract from the fact that Laura Kenny is gonna teach me how to ride a track bike. So I was like, oh, I've got to go and do it. And I'm so glad I did it. And I knew it would be such a privilege to have someone like her, the very first on the track. And she find it hilarious, of course, because she's so used to it and she's so badass and she's so brave. And there's me, like, I've never ridden a bike without breaks before, you know, and I've never I've never done it on a track, which is just terrifying. And so I had, my friend and co-presenter, Adam Blythe helping me, and he was holding up the saddle for me, so that I wouldn't wobble over before I even started. And I started going around the track and I was just screaming for most of the time and terrified. And then, and then I remember at one stage, she was trying to get me to go higher up the banking and I started to do it. And as I was screaming in terror, I suddenly realized how exhilarating it was and the scream turned to absolute joy.

And I thought, oh, I'm doing, I'm doing it!  And I looked back and I was maybe two centimeters above the line, but I thought I was on top of the world!  And you know, what, what was wonderful about it was, it is, it gave me that feeling again of conquering fears. And that's why I love doing sports and doing new sports or doing all sports in different ways because you take on some sort of fear and you have to leave your ego aside because you're not gonna be very good at it. You're not gonna be able to do it, but you're going to give it a go. And I'd such fun that afternoon. And I'm so glad I did it. And I would do it again, but I haven't yet. So it's easy to say I would do it again, but I'll just, I'll just say it's cause I'm too busy, but it was wonderful.

Sue Anstiss:

We’ll do it together at, at some point in the future, we’ll give it another go.

Orla Chennaoui:

Oh lets do that Sue! And we can scream together. You probably won’t scream. You'd be much braver than me.

Sue Anstiss:

I did scream! Going back to your move to the Netherlands, how was that transition? Did you have any concerns about your career at the time in terms of being in a different city?

Orla Chennaoui:

Massive concerns.  Of course, because I didn't know any in the Netherlands and I was losing and leaving behind my entire network of professional and personal contacts. I lived in London for, goodness, 12 years or something and you know, London is still the center of, of media sports media, but at the same time I was ready for a change and I wanted to spread my wings and I wanted to do more of my own thing. So I was pregnant at the time with my second child. And so I took an early maternity leave from Sky, knowing that was my safety net. And knowing that if it didn't work out, I'd find a way to go back again because my job was still open for me. And in the end, I love the life here so much. I love the lifestyle and the community and the sense of peace it gives me to live in Amsterdam. I love it so deeply that everything else just works out. It is much harder than if I lived in the UK in terms of work, because I still have to travel to the UK an awful lot for my work and that means leaving my young kids and that's really difficult for them and for my daughter in particular but it's all about balance. And you have to decide what you're going to sacrifice in return for what you get and the life that we have here and the community that we, that we've become a part of here makes it all worth it. And, and it also makes me enjoy my work so much, it's literally a holiday every time I go away for work now, because I get to leave all the responsibility at home and just go and have fun chatting about sport. 

Sue Anstiss: 

And, and clearly from your career's perspective, it wasn't really a massive issue. Cause in 2019 you were appointed as the first ever woman to present the Grand Tours as a lead presenter for cycling coverage on Euro sport. How did that feel. It's gonna be a massive summer for women cycling with the second Paris Roubaix Femme and the Tour de France Femme too. So how important is it that young women and men can finally see female role models on bikes in the biggest global races?

Orla Chennaoui:

It's just crucial.  It's so belated and it makes me sad at the same time as excited that it's taken such a long time and that we're still so far off it, ‘it’ being equality and parity. but it is so important and I feel that for myself, but I see it through my daughter I've had the opportunity in the last couple of years of sitting down with her and her two little friends and watching women's bike racing together. And I cannot tell you how full that makes my heart because each one of them, every time chooses somebody different that they're going to support. And so, for example Anna Van der Breggen,  who was the world champion. And so she wears a jersey with the rainbow bands on it. And so my daughter's little friend Mahalouisa had chose Anna Van der Breggen van as her rider because she likes unicorns and she thought, well, she's, she's got a unicorn Jersey on

Then we had, her little friend, Seren who, supported Mariana Voss because Voss rides for Jumbo Visma and Jumbo  is a supermarket in the Netherlands and it's Seren’s favourite supermarket, so she wanted to support Jumbo Visma. And then, Eve was supporting Lizzy Deignan, because Eve was born in London, so she sees herself as being English and Lizzy is English and I've talked to her a lot about the things that Lizzie has done and so each one of those was cheering their own rider in the race and it was beautiful. And then the next week we sat down to watch a man's race and my daughter said, oh, is the woman's race coming next then? And there was no woman's race coming next. And she couldn't understand why there wasn't. And when I tried to explain to my daughter why they're still inequality, it makes it real. And it makes the injustice of it so much more stark because we accept this don't we, we accept it like we should. But when you tell a seven year old, yeah, but the world's not fair and women still don't have the same opportunities as men. They literally cannot get their heads around it. And, and neither should we, frankly. But having this opportunity to watch the second women's Paris Roubaix in a few weeks, and the first Tour de France Femme will be phenomenal. And I'm really proud to be a part of a broadcast platform through Discovery and Eurosport and GCN, that, that shows more women's racing than anyone else, more women's racing than ever before, because these things will make a difference.

And if it's just making a difference to show little girls that they can do what the boys do, that they fall down and get back up again get dirty and get grimy and get gritty, and then still look amazing on the podium. Then that in itself is enough, because even when, as I was growing up, that's part of the reason I loved track and field because I got to see women competing on the same level as men. And I didn't realize that at the time, but that's why I loved it. And now we get to show that through cycling and we will keep being able to do that more and more through cycling. And it really matters in all sports, in all sports.

Sue Anstiss:

And do you think we need to package women's sport and women's cycling differently to men's or is it just about giving it equal air time?

Orla Chennaoui:

I don't think we need to package it differently, at all actually, unless we're packaging, the men's cycling differently, which I think we could, I think we could do it all better. I, I think there is a danger in, uh, women's cycling in particular following the same format as the man's racing, because if you were to invent cycling as a, as a sport, as an elite sport, now in 2022, you would never decide that three Grand Tours, three weeks of racing, 21 stages in a row was a good idea. And you would never have this jumbled confused calendar that we have in men's racing.  And women's teams don't yet have the, the numbers and the depth to be able to accommodate all of that women's racing could do with being different. I think the coverage though has to be the same.

Because once you start making it different, then unfortunately still, I, it seemed to be different because it's not as good or because it needs X, Y, or Z, but if you give it the same platform, we're saying, yeah, but it's just as good. 

Sue Anstiss:

I have so much I could talk to you about, but one of the areas I am fascinated to explore with you is the fact that you stopped drinking four years ago as I also quit last June. So almost a year now. And it's been the most extraordinary, positive, joyful experience. So, why did you stop?  

Orla Chennaoui:

Uh, congratulations, first of all, I'm delighted that you find it so positive. It's amazing. I actually stopped … it's longer than that… six and a half years ago, I think.

Sue Anstiss:

Oh, wow. Okay. 

Orla Chennaoui:

No, I think so. I think it is. Let me think, something like that anyway, I stopped because I drank too much for a start and that was fun for a long time, you know, and I lived in central London, I lived in Notting hill and I had a carefree existence and I had no kids and I had lots of people to go out and have fun with. And when it stops being fun, you don't realise, you know, and you keep trying to get the fun back again. And you think that that alcohol was your doorway into the fun. So if you keep, if you keep opening that door and going through that door, the fun will come back and you don't realise that actually that is becoming the block to having fun. So I drank too much and, uh, when my daughter came along, it was, essentially then impossible to be every version of myself that I wanted to be.

I wanted to still be the fun one, you know, and the party girl, but I couldn't do that and be a good mom and work as hard as I want to work. And so something had to go and that's a really sanitised version really of what it was. It was, it was a lot more brutal than that. And, and I had to face up to a lot of home truths that were very difficult. But I decided that I didn't want my life to be that. And I didn't want to, suffer hangovers with a young child because it's really hard. And I thought I'm losing out in time with her. I'm not gaining time through having fun. I'm just having alcohol and then losing out with her. So I took the very difficult decision and it was difficult cause I'd actually wanted to stop drinking for a long time before I did. And I almost always knew I would stop because I thought I can't sustain this and in the times that it wasn't fun, I knew it would have to end. And that's what I did. And I just decided that's it. I just can't drink. And I actually, I was gonna say, I can never drink again, that wasn't the thinking it was, I have to stop now. And then I'll see, I'll see what tomorrow is. And I'll see what the, what tomorrow's tomorrow is and I was going on a girl's holiday to Ibiza four days after I stopped drinking. And my husband was like, mm, do you wanna reconsider the girls Ibiza trip? But I thought, well, no, because if I, if I stopped drinking, I don't wanna stop living. The point is I need to stop drinking to live properly again and going to these girls to Ibiza,  will be awesome fun and I want to do that. And so I did, and I'm really glad I did because we had the most amazing time and it was a wonderful place to disconnect from real life as well, and just concentrate on not drinking and why I wasn't drinking and so, yeah, it was just a, it was just a slow process of reforming habits. That's what was really hard. There's so much connected to alcohol, especially in our society. There is the, fact that you walk into a supermarket and there is alcohol everywhere. So you've got to break the habit of just picking up a bottle of wine to have with your dinner. Then there is the habit that you form of celebrating with a glass of wine commiserating with a glass of wine, congratulating yourself for getting through another day with a glass of wine and working out how you do all of that without alcohol, but also then realising what a load of rubbish, all of that is congratulating yourself with a last of wine, giving yourself a sore head as congratulations, come on!

And then there's a, there's a, there's a network of friends, you know, I lost quite a lot of friends, through my not drinking. I felt the responsibility to be the life and soul of the party. I felt the responsibility always to, to be the one, to get things going and to make sure everyone was having fun. And I thought I can't do that without alcohol. But the friends that stuck around are so, so, so dear to me, and I want to mention one of them just because he died this week. And I, I really just want to say his name out loud because, um, there aren't, there aren't many people like him. And so Richard Meer, my friend was one of the friends who, um, wouldn't have realized he, it easier because he kept dancing with me and he kept going out with me and he kept having fun and he never once asked me why I felt the need to stop drinking. He just accepted it because he knew it was best for me. And he didn't ever… lots of friends. If you try to stop drinking, will project yourself on themselves onto you and their issues with alcohol onto you. And they will, um, be afraid that you walking away from alcohol is leaving them alone with it and he just never did that. You know, he never, he never tried to like drag me along into the booze party. He just kept me at the party. And that was really, really important. I thanked him for a lot in his life and I didn't, I didn't ever think to thank him for that because he was always going to be my friend and he was always going to be there and now he is not, but I'm so incredibly grateful to him and other good friends who helped you through these things.  And my life is so, so, so, so much better with that alcohol. And it makes me sad to look back and think of all the years that I did drink really, and that I didn't embrace this fullness of life earlier, but it's also okay, because you have to learn your lessons and you have to do it your way. But one of the joys of stopping drinking and having to form these new habits is that every new habit that you make to replace the alcohol is something that's good for you, which is wonderful. So I started meditation and I started yoga and I paddleboard and I go cold water swimming, and I still need kicks. You know, I still need that intensity of feeling alive, but I do it in a way that opens my lungs and my heart and my soul and my eyes to the world. And that's a wonderful, wonderful gift. And it's not something that everybody needs to do but it's something that I needed to do. And I'm very grateful that I did

Sue Anstiss:

Fantastic. I'm nodding vigorously here, it's podcast, but I, yeah, completely, agree with so much of, so many of your thoughts there. I love the realism in your Instagram bio, where you say you're a sports broadcaster, podcaster, columnist, and writer, lover of cycling, Olympics athletics. And my two kids balls may drop. And I'm, I'm always wary of asking women about bringing up children as it's not something we would necessarily ask men in the same position, but your bio does also say you are a full-time mom. So how have you balanced life, especially when you're, you're traveling so much for those big events?

Orla Chennaoui:

Um, it's… I was gonna say it's a hard question because sometimes I feel like I don't balance it very well and often I don't but, but principally how I do it is with incredible support from my husband, firstly, who, um, understands entirely what my work means to me and, and what my mission is in life, but all also from in particular, our two mothers. 

And we have a, a babysitter who also is a massive, massive help. So I, I don't do it by myself. I don't it all. and I couldn't do it by myself but it's really difficult. And, and I sometimes feel guilty about projecting an image of the possibility of doing it and I also don't want it to sound like it's impossible, cause obviously you can. But sometimes when it's really hard and people say, oh, it's wonderful that you do this. And I'm really glad that you show that you can do it. And I want to reply don't believe it! Don't believe it because there's a reason most people do it because it's really bloody hard and, and, and maybe doing the wrong things. So don't take my example as the way to do it!

Sue Anstiss:

You've spoken and written very publicly about mental health,  e that postnatal depression and, and anxiety, and even in 2022, it does take some courage to be so open. Was that a difficult decision? I think having spoken to you today, I can, I can understand the why, but I wonder how, how people have reacted to that honesty and, and openness.

Orla Chennaoui:

I've had such an overwhelming reaction to, starting to post a little bit more about anxiety and, and it's why I keep doing it really. And I don't, I, I also don't want to be just that, you know, so I have to be careful that I'm, that I'm also posting things that I celebrate and things that I love,  but I, I do think it's important to post about anxiety and, and my post natal depression as it was,  because depression is horrific and anybody who ever goes through it, it is so suffocating. And when I was going through it, that's all you can think about,  is yourself and your pain and, the darkness and the fact that there is simply no way out,  there is no way out you're, you're in a straight jacket and you're bashing into walls and there's, there's no door, there's no window, there's nothing and then when I came through it I forgot that other people would maybe see the image that I like to project as being all of me. I don't mean that to sound sort of, egotistical or, self focused. I mean more that, I like to be a happy person and I, and I forget that people don't realise that your happiness isn't inevitable and it's, it's not without its hard work. So whenever I, whenever I posted the first time I about suffering postnatal depression, I remember a colleague at work getting in touch and saying, you're the last person I would've expected to suffer postnatal depression. And that really shocked me. I thought, who do you expect to suffer from postnatal depression then? You know, because me being a happy person and a joyful person has got nothing to do with suffering depression. and so that was a little glimmer of it, but I've sort of kept it, not private, just not thought it was something that needed to be shared

 but I realised when I started to post a little bit about anxiety, how much it was connecting with people and how some of the messages that I get from people are absolutely heartbreaking that I don't even know where to start and made me realise that it is also important to show that even though my job involves me being on television and, um, being on television as a woman means getting your hair and makeup done. And I love to wear smart clothes and look a certain part. And I think it's really important to show that that that doesn't mean for anybody watching at home, they're looking at someone whose life is perfect. You can look at anybody and have no idea what's going on with them. So if you're suffering know that you're not alone, know that you're not the only one, know that not everyone else has this perfect existence. You're the only one who's going mad, you know? And so I find that just really important to share with other people that, that we're, we're not on it together. We're not in it together because everybody's is so entirely different. But if we're not connecting with each other and, and helping and reaching out, then what is the point? You know, what is the point

Sue Anstiss:

I love the, the piece you mentioned around connecting and people reaching out to you. Cause I, I shared a couple of posts about stopping drinking, I shared something on LinkedIn actually, which wasn't a normal place to share stuff, but I had so many direct messages from people who were thinking about stopping and wanting to, you know, it's like all, everything came out and that was kinda lovely to be able to, as you say, be very public and open about it. Things aren't always, as they appear on, on the surface, are they people too. You've clearly achieved so much in, in so many different ways across life. So just finally I wonder in terms of future ambitions are huge summer ahead and, and so much in terms of sport and cycling, but what, what are your kind of ambitions for the future?

Orla Chennaoui:

I have future ambitions and I'm glad I do actually now Sue, because I didn't for a while I felt like whenever I got my dream job, I felt ..what next? I've done it. Like I've done what I wanted to do, but thanks fully. I'm incredibly restless. And I do now have ambitions that I want to achieve and, and one of them is a book that I'm hoping to write, that, that will matter to me a lot. And, there's a, there's a documentary series that I would really love to get off the ground that I'm working very hard on. And if that happens, it will be something that's so personal and meaningful to me and, um, hopefully will connect with a lot of people. But I think my ambitions really are those with meaning now, you know,  because I wanted to, to achieve what I've achieved so far for me and that's wonderful and, and you have to do it for you, but then now I want to use the tiny platform that I have to reach out and to do things not necessarily for other people, but with other people, well, yeah, for other people, I guess, and with other people and, and I want to strengthen connections through writing and through, more substantial broadcast and podcasting is a massive part of that. We're sharing stories that I feel really matter. And we've had a few conversations for so far, which have been, they've just blown me over and I think as well, you know, so see, and I'm going off on a tangent here, but I find that the more honest and vulnerable you are with people, the more they give you that in return. And that's been an absolute privilege of the last couple of years, being a bit more open with people has meant I've gotten that back again. And so some of the stories that I've been able to share, or we will be able to share on our podcast, that I'm doing with Greg Rutherford. We've had some beautiful conversations that, that hopefully will really matter to people and strike a chord with people. And that's really, really, really deeply satisfying. 

 

Sue Anstiss:

Wow, what a woman, I absolutely loved talking to Orla and I wish her well for future projects.

If you’d like to listen to other female trailblazers in sport, then head to fearlesswomen.co.uk, where you’ll find details of all of my guests from this and previous series and if you’d like to hear fro other women working as sports broadcasters, you’ll find episodes where I talk in depth with Clare Balding, Laura Woods, Gabby Logan, Jessica Creighton, Ebony Rainford-Brent and Kelly Cates, along with many sports pundits, such as Denise Lewis, Eni Oluko, Kelly Smith and Maggie Alphonsi.

And as well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free network for all women working in sport. You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in global sport. And there's also more about my book Game On! The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport. 

Thanks once again, to Sport England for backing The Game Changers through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker, who does a such a great job as our executive producer, along with Rory Auskerry on sound production. Finally, thank you to my brilliant colleague, Kate Hannon who does so much to support the podcast at Fearless Women. 

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