Meghan MacLaren: Fighting for gender parity in golf

Meghan MacLaren, is a hugely successful professional golfer, and significant voice in the sport, commenting on the game and the culture that surrounds it through her hugely popular blog and social media presence.

Meg graduated from Florida University in 2016 with a degree in English and Political Science, along with seven Division 1 College Golf victories. She was a member of the victorious 2016 Curtis Cup team, won two ladies European tour Access Events and in 2017 received the LET order of merit. She's a three-time winner on the Ladies European Tour, a winner on the LPGA Symetra tour in the US and is currently ranked sixth on the Ladies European Tour order of merit. 

Meg is incredibly passionate about gender parity in golf and women’s sport, which forms the basis of much of our conversation. We explore Meg’s path into professional golf and why the pay, coverage and opportunities for the women’s game are still so far behind men’s. 

Meg talks candidly about why she turned down the opportunity to play in a Saudi backed LET event last year and how the new LIV series could potentially impact the future of the game. We talk wider diversity in golf, changes at the LPGA and her plans for the future both as a professional player and beyond. 

Thanks to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

 Meghan MacLaren: Fighting for gender parity in golf

Sue Anstiss:

Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers, the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport, who are literally knocking down the barriers to challenge the status quo for women and girls across society. I'm Sue Anstiss, and I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners Sport England who support the Game Changers through the National Lottery. My guest today is professional golfer. Megan McLaren. As well as being a hugely successful golfer, Megan's also a significant voice in the sport commenting on the game and the culture that surrounds it through her hugely popular blog and social media presence.  Meg graduated from Florida University in 2016 with a degree in English and Political Science and seven division one college Golf victories. She was a member of the victorious 2016 Curtis cup team, won two ladies European tour access events. And in 2017 received the LET order of merit. She's a three time winner on the Ladies European tour, a winner on the LPGA Symetra tour in the US and is currently ranked six on the Ladies European tour order of merit. And as you'll hear Meg’s incredibly passionate about gender parity in golf. 

So Meg, it's been a pretty momentous last few weeks for women's golf. I wonder if I can start by asking you about what happened at the most recent European tour event in Sweden?

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah, I mean, we're recording this at a pretty incredible time actually, because they had, for anybody who doesn't know, the men's European Tour or DP World Tours, it's known now, had a joint tournament with the Ladies European tour. So basically the men and the women play the same tournament one trophy, so the prize money is whoever finishes first, you know, there's no split between the men and the women. And they just set it up so that there's a slight difference in tee positions to try and take account for obviously the biological differences, that the men have in terms of being stronger and more powerful. So we play off slightly forward tees. They've had maybe three or four of these tournaments over the last couple of years, and this was the first time that a female player has won one of them.

she didn't just win it either. She won it by I think by nine shots and she was 14 shots ahead of the next female. So it's a pretty extraordinary moment for, I think for golf as a whole, to be honest, not just for women's golf.

Sue Anstiss:

And you did comment, you went on Twitter that you'd begun to think it was just too hard to make the men /women balance work. So what did you mean by that?

Meghan McLaren:

Like I said, I've played a few of them now and I, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I have to say like playing with the men is really, really interesting, but it's incredible how are you hear some of the men think it's unfair against them, because obviously we're, we’re playing from forward tees and then the women think it's unfair for them because we don't think maybe there's enough difference sometimes. And there's also obviously other subtle differences, like the way the men spin the golf ball is different so they can access different pin positions. And obviously the tournament organisers do a hell of a job to try and to try and account for all those things. But it just, it feels like such a lot of work, you know, when you're still not gonna make everybody happy and on top of that, which I'm sure will go into, you have the, the kind of negative aspect of social media in a situation like that. So my personal preference would be you have the men and women in the same place, but you know, playing for the same amount of money in, in ID, in an ideal world, but for different, two different tournaments. But having said all of that, seeing what happened and the reaction to it just made me sit back and go, you know what, this is exactly why we needed something like this and, you know, fair play to the people who have made it happen.

Sue Anstiss:

It's interesting isn't it, that feedback on the, where the tee should be?  I saw a chart that showed, where there was an advantage more to the females where there was more for the men. And actually it was very much in favor of the men, like there wasn't, overall across all of the tees, the women weren't advantaged anymore. In fact, they're less so than, than the men, it looked.

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah, because I think the thing that people seem to forget is,  we try and work it back from the green. So rather than it being a case of, okay, on average, the men hit it,  I don't know, 50 yards further than the woman. It's about what club you're hitting into the green, because if we both hit from 150 yards into the green, that's a completely different club for the men than it is for the woman. So how the golf ball comes off the club face, like I said before, how, how you can then access different pin positions is different. So the ideal solution is to have you hitting the same club into the green. So a guy hits a seven iron, then a girl hits a seven iron to try and balance things as much as you can,  but even then, you know, you've got different course layouts, it doesn't always allow for things like that to happen. And that's where I think you can maybe start to lose the essence of what a tournament should be, because you're, you're trying to manipulate things too much, but, you know, I would way rather they were trying to do something like this than not trying to do it, so.

Sue Anstiss:

Indeed. And I, I think as you said, it made so much noise and it certainly was. I saw it across social media and people talking about it say, from that perspective, it certainly had a huge impact.

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah. I'd like to think it, you know, it kind of cut through the golf barrier a little bit because there's not many other sports that could even attempt to do something like that. I think. And obviously there's been, been a fair bit of controversy recently with transgender athletes and, and how you kind of define, you know, the lines between what male sport is and what female sport is. And I think golf's in a really cool position to, to have slightly blurry lines because I don't, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Sue Anstiss:

Excellent. And golf was very much a part of your family growing up. So I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about your, you can life and, and how golf did play a part.

Meghan McLaren:

It's funny. It's one of those things that was just part of my life. Like as early as I remember, it never felt weird to me that I was the golfer, you know, it was just like my mom and dad both played, they worked in golf, both good golfers and both their families played as well. So it was just, it was just something I did from a young age and summer holidays were spent, being dropped off at the golf course in the morning and picked up on my parents' way home from work. Yeah, I played football as well, whenever I was a kid and they were just the two things that I loved to do and it was only as I got a little bit older and kind of went through the, the different pathways and kind of realised that I could be quite good at it that I maybe took it a bit more seriously, but, you know, for me, it's been a really cool part of my journey that it was just something that I enjoyed doing and did it because I wanted to, not because I was pushed into it.

Sue Anstiss:

And did you ever question it as you were growing up? Was it, or was it always assumed that that was gonna be the, the path for you?

Meghan McLaren:

I don't think it was assumed whenever I was young. Like I said, I think it was just something that I did and I was never like a superstar whenever I was young. I was just, I think gradually got better. So it was something that if you kind of just continue down this path and something might happen. There was a while there where I think I definitely preferred football, you know, I was a massive Newcastle United fan wanted to be like Alan Shearer And, I think my dad was probably a little bit savvy at the time and knew that there might be more money for me in golf, although obviously the way things have gone the last few years,  women's football’s really opened the doors. So, so no, it's, you know, it's all worked out better than I could have hoped really.

Sue Anstiss:

And when did you get onto that pathway in terms of international play?

Meghan McLaren:

I think I was probably in, in England they had like regional camps and things. So I was probably in that from 13 or 14 and then kind of, you know, was maybe moved around a little bit to start with before I really broke through to like the full national squad or the, the England Girls squad whenever I was maybe 16 or 17. So it all kind of fit together at a good time, you know, as I was kind of looking to my future, I was also getting better and being noticed a little bit more.

Sue Anstiss:

And I mentioned that you went to Florida on a university scholarship. So how does that recruiting process work for young golfers? Do you go looking for a place or do they come looking for athletes? 

Meghan McLaren:

It's a little bit of both. Obviously it's, it's come on even further since I finished college. But I think we hired a company cause there's quite a lot of companies that, you know, recruit athletes to then help them search for the right fit for them because it's quite an overwhelming prospect whenever you're, you know, 16 or 17 and America seems like a very, very big place, you know, there's maybe 200 division one schools for golf, which, you know, you say you play at a division one school and you think, oh yeah, that's great. But you know, how'd you pick from 200 places? So,  I think that the sort of best ranked players will, will have coaches come after them obviously, and people get signed up from a scarily young age, but I didn't didn't really know what I was looking for and I was glad I had a bit of guidance but also knew enough people to have a little bit of an idea about the pros and cons of different things.

Sue Anstiss:

And why Florida? Why was that your choice?

Meghan McLaren:

Honestly, the, the sort of, not very subtle reason of the weather <laugh> I just was like, I feel the cold so badly and I was like, I really just wanted to be able to practice all year round. And I thought if, if I'm able to do that, how do I not get better was kind of my main philosophy back then. So probably still holds true now, but…<laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

Absolutely, yeah. And what's the progress then from after university, the process from, transitioning from an amateur golfer to being a, a full professional player?

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah. I mean, gosh, I could probably talk about that for a long time.  I think as I got into maybe my third year in college, so it's a four year, program, I think my third year was kind of the point where I was like, okay, you know, I'm definitely turning professional when I'm done with this. 

I think I treated myself as a professional from, from about that time and sort of all the decisions that I made were with golf in mind, with my performance in mind. So it felt like quite a natural progression, but equally having said that when I did graduate and the kind of the next steps didn't necessarily go how I wanted them to go cause I think I graduated in the May, and turned professional in the December of that year because there was a few, a few big amateur events that I wanted to play before I turned professional. But in that timeframe, I definitely had some doubts, you know, it had those, those moments that I think every professional athlete does where you just go, am I good enough for this?, Am I kidding myself? Is it gonna be completely different now that I'm out of a kind of quite protected environment? But eventually you just have to make the plunge I think otherwise you'll, you'll always find reasons not to do something.

Sue Anstiss:

And for those that don't necessarily follow golf, again, this could be another hour, but could you outline, the kind of current setup and structure for women playing golf in Europe and that ambition then to play on the LPGA.

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah. So there's two main tours in Europe. So there's the LET Access series, which is the feeder tour. And that's the one that I played first, for like a year. And then there's the main tour, which is the Ladies European Tour. So that's basically the primary tour for all, all female professional golfers in Europe, but obviously open to anybody around the world. And the schedule now the past couple of years has got a lot stronger. So there's probably 30, around 30 tournaments this year and they can be in Asia, they can be obviously in Europe, we've been to Australia. And then there's lots of other tours in, I mean all around the world, but the LPGA in America would be, what's considered the strongest tour where the majority of the best players in the world are.

So there's different ways to get to that tour. So last year, I think you mentioned, so I played on the LPJ symmetric tour. It was called then, which is the feeder tour. So the top 10 at the end of the year, get automatic promotion to the LPGA. So I just missed out on that. But there's also pathways through playing in Europe as well. There's, there's different ways of qualifying. So you just have to kind of figure out what the, what the best pathway for you is. And, and I guess as well, what you enjoy the most. I think that's important too.

Sue Anstiss:

And in terms of your career, I mentioned some of them in the introduction there, but as you look back so far, what are the big highlights for you?

Meghan McLaren:

Oh gosh. I think as, as an amateur winning the Curtis Cup was, you know, I, I'm not sure anything will ever top that.  It's every two years and it's Great Britain and Ireland against America and America have performed better, I would say, have been quite dominant  in recent years. And that was 2016 that we won and I don't think we've won it since and the team we had that year, you know, a lot of them have gone on to success as well. And it was just, you know, one of those environments that just golf doesn't have very much of that team, you know, everybody pulling together. So that was very, very special. And my, you know, each of my tournament victories that I've had since turning professional, they've all been special in their own right. The first one is obviously the most, probably the most special feeling, but then equally the longer you play for the more the more demons you have to fight and the more satisfying I think each victory is after that. So I've been very lucky to get those experiences.

Sue Anstiss:

You write beautifully and if anyone hasn't already done, so I would absolutely recommend they find your blog and I'll share a link to it in the show notes.  That's actually how I first became aware of you in  a Twitter thread that I later shared, with your permission I think in the opening chapter of my book, and it was about the inequalities of pay and coverage  in women's golf. So what do you feel are the biggest challenges facing women's golf?

Meghan McLaren:

I think exposure is still the main one,  which is why I know we touched on it, but events like the mixed events are so important because it just gives a platform that isn't usually there. So I would never argue necessarily that we, as women in golf deserve exactly the same amount of money as the men when it comes to prize money, because I understand that there are a lot of factors that influence it and people aren't just gonna throw marketing and sponsorship dollars at a sport that doesn't receive the same amount of TV revenue, for example, as the men's game. But the bit that I've always tried to make the case for is that, that doesn't just become like that overnight men's sport, and this is obviously across multiple sports, you know, across the whole world really. They've been pushed for years and years,  for decades, and we're playing catch up in, in pretty much every area.

And I just think if we are given a chance that eventually it will catch up. So when people make the argument of supply and demand, I think the demand will be there, just as much as it is for the men's game. Certainly in golf, because women's golf actually has a lot of things going for it that men's golf doesn't always, but it just needs to be given, I think a similar opportunity to grow as the men's game has been. And then you can start to see, you know, prize funds increase and whether it has to come from the top down to filter into grassroots, or it needs to go from the bottom up. I'm not sure what the answers are, but I think at every single level, if more opportunities are given, then I think the revenue increases across the board.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned that kind of pushback that you hear from social media and others in terms of the women's game, doesn't deserve that same coverage, cause it doesn't have…or same funding, doesn't have the coverage in the viewers and so on. But how do you feel we can go about educating people to share what you've just stated there, the history that sits behind why women's golf is where it is in comparison to men's

Meghan McLaren:

I guess easiest way to answer people when they say that, is to kind of look at, if you look at one of the biggest men's events or even to be honest, any men's event that you watch at the weekend or the past US open, that's just finished. If you, if you put a woman's event straight into that production, I think it would be very, very different to what you actually do watch whenever you see it. And there's, you know, there's a ton of factors that bounce off that as well, in terms of the advertising that comes before or the storylines that are already created going into the event that all drive your interest, and all engage you before it actually starts. And if you kind of like put that perspective on it, I think it kind of, you know, it makes people realize that it's not just as black and white as they think it is because there's a whole range of factors that aren't just what, what the performers do on their stage.

You know, it's, it's about how that stage comes across to the viewer as well. 

Sue Anstiss:

You shared a very honest tweet at the beginning of the year, explaining how little you actually earn without sponsorship and it certainly created lots of debates, but how much are the women that play on the Ladies European tour, the LET, earning right now?

Meghan McLaren:

That answer's very varied. So I'll give you an example, the, the tournament that we were just talking about, the mixed event.  Lynn Grant won it. Who's, she's having an incredible year. So she won just over 300,000 euros for winning that tournament. She won two weeks before that, in another Ladies European tour event, obviously not a mixed event, just a standard Ladies European tour event. And she won 30,000 euros. So 10 times less. It's hard to kind of explain to people that yes, there are opportunities and the opportunities are getting better and better, but it's still not it's not like that across the board. So you can, you can have a really good year and earn maybe 70,000 pounds or $70,000, but your expenses are gonna be close to that for a year. And I think that's also the bit that people kind of, don't always grasp when you've also got your living costs on top of that we have to pay for rent and pay for fuel and groceries the same as everybody else. But the actual cost of being a professional golfer is probably a lot more than, than people realize.

Sue Anstiss:

Your blog talks very openly about the mental challenges of playing golf and competing at the kinda highest level of sport. What's the response been to your sharing content like that?

Meghan McLaren:

It's been amazing to be honest, I, I actually just played a ProAm yesterday and I played with a, a girl who's at college in America who I didn't know beforehand and both her and her mum said to me that they'd like read my blog, and sometimes her mum sends her something that she finds because she's like, you know, look it's okay. Like, just because you've had a bad round or you're having a bad spell it's, other people struggle too. And to be honest, that's the biggest reason that I've kept doing it is whenever I get players say things like that, because sometimes I feel like I'm talking to an empty void of like, I'm just sharing my thoughts, which helps me personally. But the reason I started doing it in the first place was because I was pretty sure other people felt the same way. And there isn't always a space to acknowledge that and just to share some of those struggles. That's kind of the most positive thing that, that has come out of a it for me.

Sue Anstiss:

I was thinking, as I read your blog, you’re a little bit like Adele in that you seem to write more when you're struggling with life and things…

Meghan McLaren:

<laugh> it is. Do you know what it's like? It's harder. I think the more I go, because sometimes I feel like I'm repeating myself and I'm probably more aware now that these things do go in cycles and I've kind of already answered a lot of my own questions. So I still maybe think the same things, but I think I, I get through them quicker. So I maybe don't always feel the need to write about them. Um, so yeah, I dunno if me not writing is, is a good thing or, you know, it's probably a good thing for me like professionally, but, you know, I dunno.

Sue Anstiss:

And have you always loved writing, was it something you always enjoyed?

Meghan McLaren:

I think so. Yeah. I remember writing like in school, I always enjoyed if we were asked to, you know, even creative writing, like I, I really enjoyed just using my imagination and I think I must have had kind of a skill for putting my thoughts into words from quite an early age. I didn't always enjoy writing at college. Like I didn't enjoy whenever I had a, a midnight, midnight deadline and a 10 page paper that I hadn't started at 11 o'clock, but, ….

Sue Anstiss:

Who does?

Meghan McLaren:

But yeah, well <laugh> my time management's not the best, but I think I've always enjoyed that process of just like making an argument through words or just making sense of things through, through writing, you know, and just getting from A to B is kind of, that's my way of doing it, I guess.

Sue Anstiss:

And will you do more of it in the future, do you think, is there, is there a book in you? Is it something you'll do in your career?

Meghan McLaren:

<laugh> I dunno people have asked me that. I dunno if I'd maybe just collate all of my blogs in one place, that would probably be my best, best way. I always think I don't have enough content to make a whole book, but, 

Sue Anstiss:

You'd be surprised!

Meghan McLaren:

<laugh> yeah, maybe once I start, I can't stop, but we'll see.

Sue Anstiss:

And you, you are being quite open on Twitter in terms of sharing thoughts and comments. So how do you deal with the negative comments you get, as you say, there is some of that out there on social media, has it ever led you to change your approach and the things that you share?

Meghan McLaren:

I don't think it's changed my approach to what I put out there, but it's made me more aware of when to engage and when not to, because it certainly affected me in the past. I wouldn't go as far to say I've had like mental health problems or anything like that, but, you know, sometimes you'll, you'll get into a bit of a back and forth with somebody and it'll even just be somebody that pops up completely out of the blue with a comment that, you know, like, I know there's no reflection on who I am or what I think, but then I'll be lying there in bed hours later. And it would just pop up in my head. And, you know, I think I got to a point where I knew that I didn't need that in my life and that wasn't affecting me positively. So I think I'm more aware of maybe what is worth taking a hit for and what isn't . I know when, when I'm not gonna achieve anything, say by, by posting something or sharing something. And I, I think I'm more aware of when, when I will maybe achieve something

Sue Anstiss:

In early 2020, you took a decision not to take part in an event in Saudi Arabia, a principled and brave choice, but can you tell us about that event and, and why you decided not to take part?

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah, it's, I mean, I guess it's still an ongoing thing and it's kind of come even to more prominence in golf this year  and it's quite an odd, um, it's quite an odd place to be, and I'm a Newcastle fan,  which is,

Sue Anstiss:

That was my follow up question, actually!

Meghan McLaren:

It's all, it's all quite difficult to process, but yeah, they have a the Ladies European tour had an event in, in Saudi Arabia. I think the first one was maybe 2020.  But Aramco, who are a Saudi based, or a side Saudi finance company, I think they've also sponsored quite a few events on the lady's European tour now. So when the first event in, in Saudi Arabia took place, I decided not to play because to me, from the information that I sort of read and the things that you see on the news, I felt like they were, you know, it was all part of a sports washing kind of set up an agenda and I just didn't feel comfortable being part of it. I didn't feel like I could kind of be the authentic version of myself that I want to portray and to be through everything I do, whether it's writing or social media or my golf performance, to me, they're all connected. And that's the bit that I struggled with separating. Okay. I can go there and play golf and I know I'm just there to play golf, but I've always, you know, that's the one thing that I've always tried to be true to, is, is connecting all of those versions of myself. And it just didn't make me comfortable to, to try and separate them.

Sue Anstiss:

Did others feel the same? 

Meghan McLaren:

Um, I think other people struggled with it. Yeah but I think most people would see it as too big of an opportunity financially to, you know, to hold them back, which I very much understand and may possibly find myself at a point at some time in my career. And if, you know, if I have to choose between going to a tournament that may affect my chance to get into a Solhome cup or to get onto the LPJ, that's, that's not gonna be a black and white decision for me. I know other people have struggled with it and other people have the perspective that it is a positive thing. And there's there's clinics for young Saudi women and maybe there's Saudi women attending the tournaments. You know, I understand those perspectives as well, but obviously everybody has their own opinions on what is really happening and what isn't really happening.

Sue Anstiss:

It leads us really into Live and the new men's golf tournament exhibition, funded by the Saudis and the first event took place at Hemel Hempstead last week, the players paid hundreds of millions of pounds just to take part. So I'm interested in your thoughts on that as it's kind of unfolded the story in the last few weeks.

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah, it's certainly, I mean, it's certainly a fascinating, like thing to watch unfold from, I mean sort of like, obviously, it's my sport, but I'm also on the outside cause it isn't something that affects me.  So it's a very strange time, but it's probably obvious from what I've already said. Like I don't like it. I don't like any of it. I don't like what's happening. but that's probably from a broader sense than just that it's happening in golf. The whole kind of principle of, of throwing lots and lots of money at people to promote your image when it doesn't seem like things are really changing, I don't like that. I understand that golf probably has things that it can be better at in terms of its its top product, which would be the PGA tour.

You know, there's things that people don't like and there's things that can be improved on, but I'm not sure that the purpose of the LIVE tour is really to do that. And that would be my, my main issue with it. And then you can obviously argue whether, you know, players should be loyal to, to how they've created their wealth up to now and what's given them their career and their profession, you know, that's maybe for each person to decide, but I think I've always taken the view that if you leave everybody else to make that decision, then you know, nobody ever does make the decision and nothing ever changes. So at some point you have to decide if you wanna be bigger than just yourself, I think,

Sue Anstiss:

But you can understand why a golfer could potentially sacrifice chance to play on future PGA tour events or the Ryder Cup in order, in theory, to make him enough money to, you know, rich for life for his children's lives, etcetera.

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that some things that I find really difficult, and we've had conversations about it, you know, with, with my friends on tour, like, would you do it if, if an opportunity like that came your way and it's very hard to look past them. The immediacy of, okay, I know next week I'm gonna take home, whatever it might be, $40 million at a minimum, you know, I, I completely understand why some people would turn around and go, well, I can't say no to that. Whatever happens next because I dunno if I'm gonna get an opportunity to earn that money again.  And it's a very, very difficult position to be in regardless of, of whether you question the source of the money or not just the whole kind of thing that has unfolded with the PGA tour, conflicting with, the Live tour, you know, it's a tough spot to be in and I don't envy those players, even though they're, you know, gonna be a lot richer than I am. It's it's not a nice thing to have to deal with either.

Sue Anstiss:

And it's interesting that no women were included. I think the organisers said they had spoken some of the female players who didn't feel it was right for them at the moment. So I, I dunno what your thoughts are there, or if they had approached you with their 40 million, you know, it's a, I guess it's a different conversation to be had isn't there?

Meghan McLaren:

It is. Yeah. It's um, I mean, it's, like I said, it's a difficult one because you know, obviously no, as far as I know, no women were invited to play or no women did play, but equally Saudi money has financed a lot, a lot of golf, female golf over the last couple of years, and there's a lot of players sponsored by Saudi golf and you have to look at other companies and go, why are you not doing that? But it's, you know, it's a very complicated web. And like I said, with football, you know, Newcastle United as a team that I've supported since I, before I could walk. And like I am so passionate about, and we've waited a long time to have sort of an injection of, of kind of energy and positivity in our club. So on the one hand, I think that's incredibly exciting, but then obviously there's, there's conflict there with, with what I believe. So it's can you enjoy, enjoy one thing and acknowledge that you're uncomfortable, you know, with another?

Sue Anstiss:

It's a quite big, deep, profound conversation, isn't it for <laugh> for a Monday evening. Diversity in golf is a long debated issue and it's been fascinating to see Korean Thai, Japanese players all in the women's top 10, yet the men's top 10 feels far less diverse. I wonder why there is that disparity between the men's, women's game when it comes to diversity?

Meghan McLaren:

Yeah, that's an interesting question, the LPJ obviously over the last 20 years has become incredibly diverse, and a big part of that is sort of the influx of, of Korean golfers, who a lot of whom were kind of inspired by Suri Pac winning the, I think it was the US open.  Golf just took off massively over there. And the, the kind of pathways I think that have developed have really just produced a wealth of talent and there's sort of Korean tours as well, that just produce superstar after superstar and funny enough, I think that's kind of a good parallel to draw with what could happen to women's golf, if, you know, on the whole, if you kind of have opportunities like that, that all of a sudden, a whole, you know, a whole country got behind golf as a sport and saw it as a viable career.

And it, you know, it creates, creates a generation of, of talent and of wealth as well and I think maybe in, in the men's game, America has just kind of dominated that those pathways for longer than has maybe happened in the women's game. And I think you're gonna start to see over the next 10 years, an influx of players from all over the world on the PGA tour. I think it's already starting to shift. If you look at the world rankings, there's a lot of Europeans in the top 10, there’s Australians, you know, it's, it's certainly a global game.  and I think as you kind of alluded to diversity, hasn't been its strongest point, you know, so it can only go forward from here as well.

Sue Anstiss:

And the PGA's worked hard. It seems to be like facing the issue in terms of its staff and they publish figures about gender and ethnic diversity, those working in golf, just before the pandemic. But do you feel enough is being done in terms of making golf more accessible to those from, and not just ethnic, different ethnic backgrounds, but socioeconomic backgrounds, you know, whether that's in Europe or across the world?

Meghan McLaren:

There's always more that that can be done always. I think golf is, is definitely waking up a little bit,  over the past five or so years, and I know Martin Sumbers at the RNA has, has done a lot to push kind of opening golfs, golfs barriers, really, and kind of trying to build those, inclusivity agendas into what he does, and not, not to have people see it as such a rich white man sport, because that probably still is the association with golf. And I still have to take a step back sometimes and go, you know, the, the clause for the PGA Tour membership that that stated it was white only, you know, that that existed until I don't wanna put a date on it because I might be wrong, but it's a lot more recent than you would imagine.

And that's quite a scary thought that people are listening to that in their lifetime, that clause would've still existed. which I think shows that golf has had a lot of catching up to do in terms of changing its image. And I do think it's starting to get more into schools and kind of trying to pull more people into, into it from, from less wealthy backgrounds, especially with COVID because it, it really kind of made people appreciate this is a way to be outside and to be safe. So I hope that golf can really kind of draw on the things it does have going for it and pull more people in because it's, you know, it's a fantastic sport in my opinion.

Sue Anstiss:

And you mentioned, whether the change happens from a top down or grassroots up, but great news this year that the US open, women's US open has a new sponsor and the subsequent prize purse of $10 million, I think so not, you know, not reached the men's, but moving in the right direction there. So I guess, how excited were you for that news and what does that mean more broadly for, for the game?

Meghan McLaren:

I think it's brilliant. I, I was shocked in the best possible way at that announcement but I think seeing things like that just makes you sit back and go, wow, like they're serious about this. It's not just saying the right things to please the right people. And that's always been the kind of balancing act of, you know, the things that get said versus the things that actually get done. And I think as players, it really makes us feel respected and to really go, you know, what, like people are starting to appreciate that we are professional athletes.

We put in exactly the same thing as the men do, as our, you know, male counterparts do. So why should we be valued less, when everything that goes in is the same and everything that comes out is the same in terms of entertainment and skill level. The only thing that's different is the distance that, that the men can hit it. There's a lot more similarities than differences between the men's and the women's game. So I think just as players to, to kind of see that recognised will really help push us on, you know, as, as a profession as well. And like I said before, hopefully that has a knock on effect to the people who are watching, you know, the young girls at home who all of a sudden can see you on TV and go, oh my God, she's just won $2 million. You know, how exciting is that? So I think it's all a cycle one thing affects another affects another. So hopefully it's, it's moving in the right direction.

Sue Anstiss:

And you've obviously had an incredibly successful career, with major wins every year. But I wonder what's your long term ambition for your game? That $2 million pound prize, I imagine

Meghan McLaren:

<laugh>, yeah, I wouldn't say no to that. But yeah, I wanna be, I think I wanna be competing in majors in the major championships and, and to really test myself against the best in the world. I wanna see kind of just how far my, my potential can take me, I guess, and I don't think I'll be satisfied until, until I really see that or feel like I've, I've kind of maxed out, you know, so as long as I can keep pushing myself forward, that's, that's what I'm gonna do,

Sue Anstiss:

Hopefully you'll have many more years ahead as a professional golfer, but what, what plans do you have once you leave golf from a competitive point of view?

Meghan McLaren:

I don't think I could leave the game completely. I'm too obsessed with it. You know, there's so many things about it that fascinate me that I don't think I could do something different. So whether it would be working in the media in some capacity or writing about it in some capacity, but I would like to to leave golf better than it was whenever I came to it. So whatever that looks like, you know, I would like to a part of

Sue Anstiss:

Great to talk to Meg about her career and to hear all she's doing to help drive gender equality in golf. If you'd like to hear about other women driving change across sport, do visit fearless women.co.uk, where there are details of all of my guests from this and the previous series. 

You can also listen to all the podcasts on the website and find out more about the Women's Sport, Collective, a free network for all women working in sport. 

You can also sign up for Changing the Game, our weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport. And there's more about my book Game On, the unstoppable rise of women's sport. Thanks again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker, who does a great job as our executive producer, along with Rory Auskerry on sound production. 

Finally, thanks to my brilliant colleague, Kate Hannon at Fearless Women.  Do come and say hello on social media, where you’ll find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook @SueAnstiss. And if you've got a couple of minutes, it would be great if you could rate or review the podcast, as it does make a big difference to help us reach new audiences.

The Game Changers, fearless women in sport.