Jodie Cunningham: Women leading the way in rugby league

Jodie Cunningham is one of Rugby League’s most recognisable stars playing for St Helens and England. 

She was named  Woman of Steel for her incredible form during Saint's treble winning season in 2021, and, having represented England in two world cups, she's now working towards her third as England compete in the Rugby League world cup on home soil this autumn.

A huge advocate for women's sport and equality in the UK, Jodie now works full-time at the RFL as a National Women's and Girls’ Development Manager and is also an ambassador for the Rugby League World Cup.

We explore why physical sports like Rugby League are becoming so appealing to young women, the impact of the Super League and TV coverage on the growth of the women’s game and what it will take for the sport to finally become professional so that the women can be paid to play in the same way as their male colleagues. 

Thanks to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Sue Anstiss:

Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss. And this is the podcast where you'll hear from the trailblazers in women's sport. 

These are the women who are literally changing the game, knocking down barriers to challenge the status quo for women and girls across society. 

I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners, Sport England, who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery. My guest today is St Helens and England Rugby League player, Jodie Cunningham. One of the Super League's most recognisable stars and a huge advocate for women's sport and equality in the UK. She was named Woman of Steel for her incredible form during Saint's treble winning season in 2021, and having represented England in two world cups, she's now working towards her third as England compete in the Rugby League world cup on home soil. Later this year, Jodie now works fulltime at the RFL as a National Women's and girls’ development manager, and is also an ambassador for the Rugby League World Cup.

Sue Anstiss:

Jodie you've had the most extraordinary career, but you have faced some setbacks too. And I wonder if we could start our discussion by exploring what happened to you back in 2017, just five months out from the rugby world cup.

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah. So 2017, it was, it was a huge year for women's rugby league. It was the first time that the women's world cup was gonna be ran alongside the men's world cup. And, you know, for me, I felt like I was in my prime playing really good club rugby. I had full focus really on, on making that world cup squad and, and hopefully doing England proud and yeah, five months out from the tournament stepped off my left leg. And it gave way and I knew it wasn't good news and I was hoping for the best fearing the worst. And when I finally got my scan results back, I'd torn my ACL. I'd partially torn my MCL and to my meniscus in two places with, with a bit of a bone fracture as well.

So yeah, I'd well, and truly, made a bit of a mess of my knee and the surgeon handed me the papers and said you need to get an operation and, and have a reconstruction on your, on your ACL to, to get back playing again. And it just felt like my world had fell apart in one moment. And I, I, I literally couldn't even compose myself to, to process what he was asking me to do. So I said, look, can I have a little bit of time to think about it and come back. And in that time decided that that World Cup was too big of an opportunity to miss and the, for more so, just for my own mental, mental state, I had to give it a go because my body had felt really good and quite a few, you know, physios had looked at my knee and said that it feels really stable and were hoping for the best when I was getting my scan results.

So, you know, I said, my body hasn't given up on me yet. And, and until it does, I, I need to keep going and keep trying for that world cup because, you know, if I had the reconstruction, it was a, a nine month to 12 months. So I would've completely been ruled out of that world cup. I, so yeah. Decided to rehab without an operation and with lots of support and my knee heavily strapped really luckily managed to get myself fit enough, and then also give the coaches enough confidence that I was worth taking, even despite the injury and, and managed to go to that world cup, which was a dream come true because of how, how far away the opportunity felt just a few months earlier.

So yeah, it was, it was a crazy year and England didn't do the best in that world cup you know, we, we were a bit under par, but for me personally, just getting there, being able to get through all the games and, and my knee held up. So yeah, a bit of a crazy year whirlwind year, but I think changed me and shaped me in lots of ways.

Sue Anstiss:

That's amazing isn't it to have gone on without that operation, my daughter had an ACL injury actually playing rugby union a few years ago and I saw what a horrible experience it was to come back from just in terms of how hard the rehab can be mentally and physically. So was there ever a point where you thought, and even when you came back and had the operation afterwards, was there ever a point when you thought, you know, maybe I should just walk away from this now?

Jodie Cunningham:

Oh. If I had a pound for every time, <laugh> I doubted myself, I'd be very rich <laugh> um, yeah, I think both before that world cup, uh, and after I think there was so many times where, you know, it all got on top of me and I just thought, why, why am I doing this? It's not possible. I'm not gonna make it because the surgeon gave me a 5% chance. That's what he said when I went back and had, the meeting with him and said, actually, I'm not gonna have the operation I'm gonna try and rehab myself to the world cup. He wasn't supportive at first and was like at that sort of level in a contact sport, like rugby it's not going to work.

And you could cause yourself a lot more damage. And yeah, he gimme a 5% chance. And to be honest, when he said 5%, I was like, that's five in a hundred people. I've only got to be one of five in a hundred, which I felt sounded like quite good odds to be honest from where I, I felt like it was before the meeting. but yeah, throughout that time, it was really difficult. And I had to lean heavily on, on friends and family. because I did have so many moments which I doubted myself 

So yeah, they were brilliant. And I think our relationship grew with mine, with my mom and my dad particular because the way they had to support me through that, we, we found lots of different ways. You know, that one of the things my dad said was, can you start sharing the good news with me? Because it feels like every time you ring me it's oh, I had training today and it didn't feel very good or it's swollen up a little bit, or I don't think I'm gonna get picked the coach isn't gonna take a risk on me. It was always ringing for support and being upset or negative. And he said, you know, when good things happen, make sure you ring and tell us that because I don't wanna dread it every time the phone rings. So that's one of the things I always do now that, you know, after this podcast and, you know, do something nice, like this, I'll get the phone up, I'll ring.

My mom I'll ring my dad. And we just chat about really positive things on a regular basis. So that, you know, the times that always come about, I think, any, any sports person has the ups and downs in the career, no matter what it's about, whether it's selection, injury, or just having a bad day that, you know, they can be there to support me through the hard times, but also they get, they get the good times as well and they get to celebrate those good times. So yeah, a lot of good stuff came out of it as well. 

Sue Anstiss:

That's lovely. I think that's a good lesson for all young people and families to, to call with the positive stuff too. Isn't it? And you didn't have a, a typical start in the sport. So can you tell us a bit about your first experience of going to watch a game of rugby league?

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah, so I'm, I'm from Warrington, which is a massive rugby league town, Warrington Wolves being the professional team but it had never been anything that was on my radar really. I didn't watch rugby league. I didn't, I didn't play it at all as a, as a young girl, but my dad's just obviously with it being so prominent in Warrington said, you know, I'll take you down to a game. And I can't remember exactly how old I was seven or eight. And, I just remember having no clue what was going on, paying no attention. I think it was raining and it was freezing. And I was like, dad never take me to a rugby game ever again, which he does remind me of on a regular basis now!

It was then a couple of years until I really experienced rugby league again. And it feels like fate a little bit, ‘cause the year I started high school was the year they started the champion schools tournament for girls. So had great history, had been ran for many years for boys.  but this was the first time they were running it exclusively for the girls at secondary school. My best mate at the time, I'm still best mate now, Emily Rudge, she had played and loved it and was adamant we were gonna get a team to enter this competition.

So rallied around anyone that was remotely sporty in any way, to try and convince them to give rugby league a go. And I was really hesitant at first that the idea of running at people as hard as you can, while they run it, you as hard as they can and tackle you, it didn't sound like the most appealing thing in the world. And I was really sporty. I did, you know, I tried so many sports when I was younger and had loads on the go and I'd never really found that one sport I wanted to fully commit my time to and then the girls did really well in the competition. They were going out of school and like missing classes to go to these competitions and they were just having the best time. And I thought, well, I don't have to be the best 

So managed to convince myself despite being still quite terrified of not being good enough or getting hurt or whatever else might come along with trying a new sport. Um, but went down to the first training session. Absolutely loved it. And I think after playing my first game, I just knew it was like a, a switch had flicked and I just knew this was the sport for me. And I wanted to fully commit all my time to it and play it as much as I possibly could

Sue Anstiss:

And you talk about that switch flicking, but what was it about the game of rugby league that you love so much, you played other sports, what do you think it was? And I, I'm interested also that whole fear of, you know, running hard at people and tackling, but clearly once you'd done it, that wasn't the case. So in terms of how we bring other girls into a contact sport, what was it about that do you think that you loved so much?

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah, the physicality of it is actually my favourite part of it. And I think for me it was so empowering as a young girl to play what was deemed to be on masculine sport that boys play to play that do well, excel in it and enjoy it so much was really empowering for me and actually something that, you know, my family really loves the idea that I played this sport that, you know, my mom always says to me still now that I wish those opportunities were available for me when I was at school, I would've loved to have played rugby. but I definitely would never have sought it out outside of school.

It was only because of this opportunity to play with my friends where I felt comfortable, that I did manage to sort of overcome those hesitations and those fears a little bit to give it a go in the first place. Once I'd actually done it. So yeah, in the training session, probably in the first game as well, really hesitant to take the first ball in and not really knowing what's gonna happen. But I think the fear of the contact is so much worse than the actual contact is.

As soon as you do you realise it doesn't really hurt you're introduced to it at quite a, a beginner's level and then develop that over time. And yeah, a hundred percent is the, the best thing for it, for me is that, that physical element, the team sport as well, for me, it always would ha have to be a team sport.

I did bits of gymnastics and cross country running, and it was always sort of netball that I, I loved and played bit a bit more of when I was younger. And then obviously rugby being a team sport is massive for me. That's, that's the, the huge appeal to it. We've become a family. Um, but I think as I've got older and reflected, I also see some of the aspects which I think apply across rugby union and rugby league is how inclusive it is. And as an environment for all girls, all women to take part in when actually they might look completely different ways. So I think for some sports, it's quite a stereotypical athlete look and actually, if you look at rugby league particular, you have every shape and size on that field and they all have a particular role and job to do.

So I was really, really skinny when I first started playing and probably thought I was too little and maybe other people made comments that I was too little at times. Um, and I found ways of making my, you know, the fact that I was slender an advantage of mine. And actually my tackle technique ended up developing much quicker because I had to cause, you know, most people had a weight advantage on me. So that side of it, I absolutely love that people of all shapes and sizes tall, small, big skinny can come to rugby league and Excel and find their confidence. And I see so many young girls now coming down to training and they're quite shy and you can tell that they're possibly a little bit low on confidence and they just shine and come out of their shell so much. So that's one of the things that looking back now, I really appreciate and think that I have such a healthy body image and I've never sort of struggled with, with weight issues. And I think a large part of that is playing a spotlight rugby league from such a young age.

Sue Anstiss:

And in terms of profile and funding, women's rugby league, doesn't always get the support we see for women's rugby union. And I know for many people, when we hear talk of women's rugby, they automatically think of, of rugby union and not rugby league. And I realise that's an issue in men's rugby league too, but that must be really frustrating for you and kind of fellow players.

Jodie Cunningham:

It can be frustrating. Yeah. And I think it's, it's difficult because when you come from an area where rugby league is massive. So some of the, the big heartlands of rugby league, like Warrington Wolves, you know, St Helens, who I play for now, big rugby league towns, Castleford, Wakefield,  rugby league's the center of the universe. And then you don't realize that actually, if you look at nationally, it's not maybe as, as quite highly known. So particularly down south, obviously there's lots of work going on to try and expand on the opportunities that are available in rugby league and get it, get it more well known. So it can be frustrating at times, but equally I think there's opportunities to gain from the exposure and the growth that that rugby union has I know we've developed a women's super league south so that, you know, the travel distances aren't too much, which again, adds on cost and barriers to, to compete. And we have a lot of rugby people who convert across and, and they play both. So obviously rugby league being a summer sport, rugby union, being a winter sport means that actually you can play both or at least partly play both. And you know, some people have a rugby union preference or a rugby league preference, but most of the time just enjoy playing rugby. So yeah, I think there's, it can be frustrating. And I think sometimes particularly the fact that people assume rugby union when rugby's mentioned means that we sometimes get overlooked a little bit, but also I think we have lots of opportunities, even more so in the women's game because of the reason that actually women's sport across the board is, is relatively new in its growth and its profile.

So we can have a seat at the table and we can get awareness and profile out there in a way that the men possibly can't because there's such a long history of, of rugby union being the, the dominant sport in terms of the rugby code. 

Sue Anstiss:

Yeah. I like that attitude. I, I do think within the men's I guess union, league, sometimes there's a lot of that kind of anger and shouts of betrayal when players move from league to union and back and back and forth. But it, it does feel that there isn't perhaps, uh, that same negativity within the codes on the women's side, would you say?

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah, completely agree. I think, you know, you'll have lots of, of the older generation of fans who will talk about the divide and, and, you know, when the codes split and yeah, there's lots of history around it, all to do with when the professional payments came into play around working class, players and, and that type of thing. And I think they are ingrained in that. Whereas women are often are the girls, particularly when they come into the game, it's just rugby. It's just this new sport that they're trying. They don't really have any exposure in regards to what that history is or why there are two codes that split. They just, I like playing rugby. I'm good at passing. I'm good at running. Okay, well, I'm good at this one. I'll try this one. Oh, well, I can do that one as well. And they don't really have any of that, um, issues with trying one or the other, or play in both sports, which I think is great. It allows us to, to contribute to each other much more and work together, uh, across the codes. We've got quite a few players who play rugby union,  and then come across and play rugby league in the summer at a really high level. and it's brilliant to see cause actually you can develop as a player in loads of different ways. Yeah, I, I completely agree with you that there's not quite that same attitude towards the, the different codes in the women's game. So it allows us more opportunities to, to collaborate and work together.

Sue Anstiss:

And have you played rugby union yourself at all?

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah, so I, I played rugby union at university. I remember going, so I went to league university and uh, when they have the open days and, and all the different sports have their, their stalls and they're trying to recruit people for the season. Uh, I went over to the rugby league stall and I was like, I wanna sign up for the rugby league team. And they were like, oh, we don't have a women's rugby league team. I was like, can I play for the men? And they were like, no, you can't play for the men. So I wasn't really sure what I would do. I possibly wasn't gonna play a sport. And then the, there was a girl who'd played who was a predominantly a rugby union player, who'd played some rugby league who was one of the older girls at the, in the uni team. And she got in touch with me and said, oh, we'd love for you to play for the rugby union side. And I'll be honest, I'd never watched a game. I had no concept of the real differences. Really. I just knew it was a different sport that I'd never played. And she was like, it's fine. Play full back. They played virtually the same. So I literally turned up to play a game without even attending a training session. Got thrown right in the deep end, but absolutely loved it. One of the best decisions I ever made at university was, was playing for the rugby union side and I had so much fun. I made friends for life and hopefully contributed, um, to the growth of the rugby union team at, at the university ended up being captain ended up coach for a big chunk of it as well.

Cause we didn't really have a coach. So that was quite interesting when I didn't know the technicalities of the rucks and, and some of the line outs had to, definitely lean on some of my fellow players, quite a lot there.  But I absolutely loved it, and we did really well at uni and there was lots of opportunities and conversations around going and trying, playing rugby union outside of,  outside of university and going to some England trials,  but for me, my heart was always with rugby league as much as I enjoyed my time playing rugby union.

Sue Anstiss:

Brilliant. I love that. And we are beginning to see it's interesting, isn't it, it's almost that different to the men's game, but we're beginning to see women being paid to play rugby union with professional contracts for national sides and sort of semiprofessional, in the premier fifteens. And so what's the current situation in terms of professionalism within women's rugby league?

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah. So rugby union a little bit ahead of, of where we are at, obviously with those professional contracts currently in rugby league, none of the women are paid to play it's professionalized so much. So other than obviously paid contracts in terms of the level of support,  the staffing, the, the structures around it, are now so much more professional in year on year, those standards are raising,  I don't think payment is too far away. I think, you know, we're on that cost and it's gonna be a big couple of years ahead this year, particularly with the world cup at the end of the year and the exposure that that's gonna provide for the sport, It's gonna be huge. Um, the legacy off the back of that in terms of hopefully growing grassroots numbers of girls participating in the sport as well,  and then looking ahead to sort of 28, 24 and new broadcast deal, and hopefully the sport being ready to take hold of, of the broadcast deal, it's gonna happen with the men and, and hopefully have an opportunity for that with the women, which I think will be a big, big driving force in terms of creating those professional contracts. 

And I think these big strides this year as well in the fact that the rugby league world cup at the end of the year, there's equal participation fees for the, the female players, which is, which is huge, because you know, we don't play the game for money. That's, that's not why we start playing. We play the game cuz we absolutely love it. And we're really passionate about rugby league, but there should never be a barrier in the sense of that someone can't represent their country because they can't afford to take the three, four weeks off work that it might be required to play in a World Cup, which genuinely can be a real issue for a lot of the women that play the game.

You know, if you are a teacher for example, and you need to take three, four weeks off work in term time, then you're probably gonna lose out on a virtually a month's wage, which is really difficult to manage. So the fact that in these big tournaments, now that there's gonna be participation fees and prize money for the first time, it means that that's not a worry, nobody has to worry about sort of the financial implications of playing these tournaments, which is absolutely a start. And it means that we're on that journey to sort of becoming paid professionals, which will be really exciting. And yeah, it's, it's something that has been a long time coming, but the progress that's been made in the last couple of years has just been astonishing to get us there. I never thought I'd see it in my playing career and maybe it'll come to us the back end, which is, is fantastic!  

Sue Anstiss:

As the sport gains, more profile and coverage, do you think we need to be able to critique, the women's game more? Is that important?  

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah. It's one of those weird situations where everybody's so supportive of the women's game and everyone's so behind it and wants to see the growth and and can see the potential in it. So then as the media profile raises and we get more games live on, on television, we see people starting to then criticize the sport just as sports people, which no, it's hard to take sometimes when it's the first time you've, you've seen the exposure and the criticism around the game, but then at the same time, I also try and spin it and see it as a positive that they don't see it as a personal attack anymore because they see us as sports stars they're looking at it as a sports fan, as a rugby league fan and, and are now making the natural opinions and criticisms that they would, but any other men's or other women's sport.

Jodie Cunningham:

Um, so yeah, it it's a difficult one to take at times because it's probably the growth has been so accelerated in, in a short space of time that it sort of come all of a sudden this exposure in terms of social media, in terms of television, broadcast is, is so new to a lot of people still that actually that side of it is also quite new to us.But, you know, in order to get better, we probably need some of that criticism and we need to be able to analyse it as a, as a sporting asset rather than actually it's this new women's thing that everyone's protecting a little bit. So, yeah, interesting dynamic conversation I have on a, on a regular basis actually,

Sue Anstiss:

<laugh> I'm sure. And how important has the support of the Sky and the BBC been for that growth is in the last few years, especially

Jodie Cunningham:

I, I think it's just integral and, and Sky and BBC have both got behind women's rugby league so much and just their exposure and involvement has been massive, you know, June, Sky Sports, particularly who, who leads on all the rugby league elements. she actually offered me my first opportunity to do, uh, punditry on sky on the men's super league game. And I was the first female player to ever do it,  I was absolutely terrified. I don't think I realized what I was saying yes to when I said yes <laugh>,  and then sort a new, June from there. And, and she's been so heavily involved and, and just really keen to learn and understand how, how Sky can help us on our journey, you know, we don't have all the answers yet, we don't have all the puzzle pieces yet, but Sky Sport’s working with us to get those puzzle pieces together so that we are ready to have this quality products that people want to tune into and people want to see, and equally the BBC, you know, that BBC's gonna be covering all the, um, World Cup games at the end of this year, so that exposure on terrestrial TV is massive.. So that trophy meant the world, but the exposure off the back of it, because it was on BBC was massive. I couldn't believe how many people were talking to me about, about the game. 

And, and they have that awareness of it as a sport. And I just think it's absolutely brilliant and it is thanks to the likes of the BBC sky and some of the streaming broadcast partners that we have as well, who are getting quality footage out there. Because I say this all the time, you know, you watch the one camera,  grainy footage of, of a game.

And, and it, even if you watch the exact same skill on that, and then on live on the BBC or on Sky from multiple angles, it looks so much better. The level of skill looks better and we have to give elite quality top footage of the women's game in order for it to look like a product people want to see. And it's always a chicken and egg situation with women's sport, but it is the case. If you, if you show it at top quality and make it look like something people want to be part of, then they will get behind it, which is so exciting. And I think as a player drives you on so much more to wanna be part of those really big games, those finals, because it's not just about lifting a trophy, it's about the opportunities to, to be live on Sky, be live on the BBC that, that is opened up by getting to those finals.

So it's driving standards as well throughout the game. And I I'm seeing that in my own team and, and throughout the league as well.

Sue Anstiss:

That's really interesting reflection. I hadn't thought of that in terms of that aspiration play, to be in that team that then is televised. Yeah, really interesting. I was nodding vigorously as you talk about that quality of, of filming and production and the difference that makes in terms of the perception of the game two, that's just so true, isn't it? There's much discussion across women's sport about whether teams should be linked to their men's side. So sharing profile and the sponsorship packages, or whether it's better to be unbundled and exist away from the men's game. And obviously the growth of the women's super league in 2017 was very much aligned to the men's game. So how important do you think that has been for the success of the women's rugby league?

Jodie Cunningham:

I think it's the, the single biggest, momentum shift in, in rugby league for the women massively behind the concept of it. And I think there's a lot of people who would dubious as to whether it would work, whether, you know, you have a lot of people who possibly think that have the women aren't the right to wear a saints badge or aren't in badge because actually they're just community players and the being sprung into this system and people earn the right to wear that badge. Again, it's always a chicken and egg situation. Give them the opportunity to do that, make it a product that people want to be part of. And that is absolutely happening in the women's game. We have so many young girls who are now aspiring to pull on a Saints shirt, a Warrington shirt, a Wigan shirt.

And that's because they are linked to a club which has so much prestige, so much history that they stood on the terraces supported since they were a little girl And now they genuinely the opportunity to wear that badge. The growth that we've seen, you know, in, in four years, we, you, we went up four, fold the number of girls and women playing the game. And I do believe that's off the back of the exposure that being linked to a club like that provides, it's like a ready, made fan base of people already behind you and wanting to succeed, which is brilliant and, and the sort of pressure that comes with it as well, which, cause people love and give so much to a club that they support. And now you are wearing that badge and you've gotta do that badge proud as well,  which is a nice feeling as well. I think it makes us all strive to be better and just the support systems that come along with it. So as much as we aren't paid to play at these clubs, the fact that we have access to the facilities, you know, the strength and conditioners, the physios, the medical staff, which were just non-existent in the game before.

Jodie Cunningham:

So actually in order to make a better product on field for us to get to the point where we wanna get to, we need to have that support because the girls need to be educated. They need to know how to use a gym, to get more robust, to stop injuries. 

You need to have all the infrastructure in place to allow those things to happen. If you're setting up as a separate entity, I think that's really difficult casue you've got so many more barriers and hurdles to get over.

But yeah, it's, it's been fantastic for the women's game. And particularly again around, I think that that similar question is, can be asked around the World Cup. The world cup is men's women's and wheelchair running together. I think it's again the best thing to happen to international rugby league. Um, the opportunity to grow from each other equally, just as much as we, we are utilising the, the profile and visibility that the men's players and the men's nations have already they're equally benefiting off the fact that some of the commercial sponsors that involved in the rugby league world cup this year brand new to rugby league biggest sponsorship deals that they've ever been at an international level. And that's because in my opinion, it's an inclusive tournament that offers much more than just the top men's players going head to head. Yep. Great. Well that you're gonna get that from any world cup.

Actually this world cup now offers you that different experience of having women, having wheelchair athletes It just gives such a whole, all round holistic approach of new people to target and new people to go at. I can't wait for final whistle to go at the world cup, appreciate the hard work that's gone into that, but also have the excitement of how many young girls have sat and watched this for the first time and turned around to the mom, the dad, the grandparents, and said, I wanna do that. How do I go about going to a team and playing this sport, cause that will happen. And there'll be so many people will be inspired just by that moment of watching an incredible long range, try by Amy Hardcastle, live on the BBC. You know, we are gonna see that and it'll be, be brilliant to see these young girls go through the system and pathway and go on to be professional players in years to come.

Sue Anstiss:

I used to run a sports PR agency and  the RFL were one of our clients and they were one of the nicest governing bodies we ever work with. So inclusive and so supportive. So is that something, I think I know the answer to this, but you see within rugby league as a sport as an entire sport.

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah, I do. And we, we talk about it a lot, but it's like the rugby league family and it sounds like such a cheesy term, but it's so true. I think no matter what your entry is into rugby league, whether it's as a player as, as a young girl or a boy or, or whether it's as a coach, a volunteer or someone at the governing body, I think once you, once you become part of rugby league in one way or another, you're in it for life, it is sort of a real family feel and that is because it is so open and inclusive for everyone. And for what is deemed or has this stereotype of being a real masculine, physical, aggressive sport? No, we have so many amazing people who are involved, who are creating opportunities for every person, from every background and walk life. You know, we've got the learning disability rugby league, which is brilliant and community integrated care have been integral to getting that set up as, as a social care charity, working with the RFL, but I've watched it and I've worked with some of the, the, the individuals who play that sport. And also some of the projects that have come off the back of it with an inclusive volunteering program, that's gonna be part of the World Cup and it's just amazing to see these individuals who have probably had so many barriers in their life to playing things. And so many people telling them they can't do things. And yet they played a festival at Anfield as part of the Magic Weekend and you know, tens of thousands of fans cheering for them. You know, that's an incredible experience that's been provided through an opportunity to, to put a variant of the sport on that allows these people to excel and do things that everyone tells 'em they can't do. And we've got the same with the physical disability rugby league, the wheelchair rugby league, which, you know, men's, women's disabled, nondisabled together on one pitch is, is pretty incredible. So yeah, I absolutely, I, I agree with everything you say, I've, I've worked at the governing body now for, for six months there's lots of really great people who are working really hard to make sure that the sport looks after the people who are involved, not just on the field, but with all the great social impact work that's going on alongside it.

A big difference with rugby league and rugby union is that rugby leagues played a lot in real working class areas. A lot of areas are high, high deprivation, and you know, those people who probably have really low expectations of themselves in life and what they can do and the opportunities that are available to them and rugby league opened so many doors and allowed them to do things they never thought possible. So yeah, for me, it is pretty incredible, but, uh, you know, I'm a little bit biased <laugh>

Sue Anstiss:

And rugby league’s traditionally had a high percentage of, of female fans too. I think about 40% of fans of the game are, are female. Does that gender parity translate into the women's game and the fans that you are finding there?

Jodie Cunningham:

Absolutely in, in the women's game, it's the same. We have, we have quite an equal split. We've got lots of fans that have transitioned from being fans in the men's game that are now fans, and follow one of the women's teams as well, but we have a lot of women who get involved like the environment that's, that's provided at women's games. It is a really, welcoming environment, even as, as a fan spectator in regards to, you know, sometimes in football, there can be a little bit of, you know, not, not too nice environments where fans have to be separated and you couldn't possibly mix the same fans together.

And actually, would you wanna take a young kid to certain games in certain environments, especially if possibly you, you add a ticket that might be in the opposing fans area, whereas rugby leagues, just not like that at all, it's very much open access. So where we have the Magic Weekend, where every team plays each other over a two day weekend and all the fans are integrated and, and are all together and they have so much banter together and it's the same across the women's game now we just, we just see so many people in so many walks of life, men, women, young, young fans as well, which is really important for us. I think that's a huge priority is making sure that we've got young fans who want to come and and get involved in the game as well. So seeing it more and more, and definitely particularly from a young girl perspective, the amount of fans that we get showing up who are copying hairstyles, just anything like, obviously turning up with the women's names on the back is massive.

The first time I saw that, honestly, I welled up, it was like one of those pinch me moments. You just can't believe someone's gone and paid to buy a shirt and put your name on the back. It's just mental,  but yeah, we've got young girls now who show up and some of the girls who have quite unique hairstyles and like to play with like matching ribbons, the dyno plait,  Paige Travis in my team in particular has this dyno plait and it looked brilliant and little girls are turning up with their own dyno plait and have even made special ribbons that they've given to Paige at the end of game saying, can you wear my ribbon and your in your dyno plat? And I just think, wow, like if you look at influence, like you've genuinely created a role model there for a young girl who can see a fierce woman like Paige, who's absolutely killing it on the pitch, but also if she wants to, can look really feminine and have matching bubbles and bowls and stuff like that, that's, that's absolutely how Paige likes to express herself on the pitch.

And there's young girls there who feel the same way and can relate to that and absolutely have that role model in place. Equally. We have some of the girls who like to shave their head, don't wear any makeup, wear scrum hat, and we've got young girls who show up and feel exactly the same way and they'll have matching scrum hats. And I just think, you know, the whatever role model, whatever character, whatever personality you are, there's somebody that you can relate to on the pitch. And, you know, like I said before, I just think there's, there's somebody from every shape size and walk life on that pitch that everybody can relate to. And we're seeing that in the fans that come to watch as well,

Sue Anstiss:

I can completely understand why you're brilliant in your new role. Can you <laugh>, can you tell us about your new role at the RFL?

Jodie Cunningham:

Yeah. So new role is, uh, national women and girls development manager. I sort of had a bit of experience of working behind the scenes in an administrative capacity. never really considered it. It's crazy ‘cause when I was at university and coming outta the university and deciding what I wanted to do, my family always said, you need to find a time where you're gonna actually put your career first.

You can't always put rugby league first and they always said, rugby league, won't be your job. So you, you know, you need to focus on, on everything else and you appreciate it's your passion. And I genuinely never considered working in the sport outside of playing. It just hadn't crossed my mind really. And this opportunity came up because of all the growth that we've seen in the women and girls game, it needed a sole focus of somebody who's looking at the development and how the women and girls game possibly needs to be different. We're not little men. We are capable of doing incredible things, but sometimes the path to get there needs to look a little bit different.

So yeah, it's, it's not a blueprint copy and paste job of, of the men's game and the systems that we have in place there it's looking at, okay, well what are the challenges? What are the barriers? How can we take some of those away and, and address the pathway so that it works for the women, and the girls who play the game and allows them to you know, there's so many people doing great work, but at the end of the day, when you've got that lived experience, you can speak from, um, from your own experience, like one example, which I'm sure they won't mind me sharing was at a Challenge Cup final. I went to use the toilets and realized that there was no sanitary bins. Now it hadn't been something that I'd particularly needed at that time, but realised that actually there's more than likely in a team of 20 odd to 30 women who are there on the day. There's, there's likely somebody who's going to need that at that time. And I checked every toilet and there wasn't one.

Jodie Cunningham:

And the reason being is cause we were using a men's stadium with men's changing rooms. Now nobody had intentionally forgot to do that. Just nobody had considered it ever because why would they? It's just little things like that. That's the, a tiny, small example of saying we have this event plan, which is used for men's finals. There needs to be a couple of little different things that are considered for the women, that being one of them. And now it's on event plans to make sure that in every changing room that are used, that's something that's checked beforehand. Um, so yeah, you know, that, that's just an example really, in terms of looking at things a little bit differently from right from the top where we're looking at events to looking at, okay, well what's right for young girls playing at the minute, we've got up to 11 year olds playing mixed rugby league with the boys.

but is that always right? Do we need a girls offer actually a younger age group because if we do some great work and we inspire a 10 year old to want to go and play rugby league and they have to go and play in a local boys team, whether they're the only girl and they've possibly played for three or four years and are really experienced and don't pass to her, is that the experience that's right to get her into the game or actually can we start to offer girls only rugby league younger so that they're coming in at the right entry route where everybody's quite new to it and they can go with the friends and they feel comfortable in that environment. So it's just looking at things a little bit differently and not, not trying to do it exactly how it's always been done and yeah, we it's been eyeopening and incredible and I doubt myself on a regular basis. And so I'm capable of doing it, but also know that I it'd be hard to find anyone as passionate as I am about making it work. So no matter what I have to do, I'll, you know, I'll, I'll find a way of making it happen because I just wanna make sure that young girls have the opportunity to, to do what I've done and million times more because the potentials huge for the growth of this game. And, and I just know that women and girls can contribute to the growth of rugby league as a whole. So yeah, really passionate about it. Can I do my absolute best alongside hopefully getting picked for the world cup this year? Um, so balancing the tune, not, not, not too easy, but absolutely something that, you know, I'll live and breathe it, so hopefully can, can make a success out of it.

So looking ahead to, the rugby world cup for those that don't kind follow the sport as closely, how do England women rank in the world right now?

Jodie Cunningham:

So England are ranked third in the world right now. So you quite similar to rugby union in, in certain aspects, some of the nations, but it's very other side of the world dominated with Australia and New Zealand. They, between them have won every women's World Cups that they've been in rugby league so far, which is tough one to take, but they are quality sides and actually are professional slash semi-professional,  in Australia. So their domestic competition, they are paid to play which is tough. You know, obviously balancing that we're getting closer and closer and you know, I, I, I keep saying that, you know, when people ask me the question, the passion that you have to have to commit everything you do when you're not paid a penny and you balancing it along work is more than you can possibly imagine.

And I think that drive and that passion will pay us dividends when it comes to the World Cup because we're all gonna fight tooth and nail because of everything we sacrifice to get there, not to say that that's not the case of many of the other nations, but for us as a team, I see what, we've, what we've sacrificed over the last couple of years, particularly with the pandemic and all the challenges that that brought as well. So yeah, we're third ranked third in the world, Australia, New Zealand being the top two. Um, but yeah, hoping to change that at the back end of this year.

Sue Anstiss:

And just finally, in terms of your future career path, do you think you'll always work somewhere in rugby league cause ironic isn't your family thinking there wasn't a career there for you. It clearly has been, but is that, do you think that's where you'll stay

Jodie Cunningham:

For me? Yeah. I see, I see my future being in rugby league and, and just constantly helping towards the growth of the sport and making it better and even more inclusive,  and removing those barriers that there are for participating across the board. So yeah, I think so,  that's where I see my future, but definitely 100% in sports development. You know, it's a cliche, isn't it. But if you love what you do, then you'll never work a day in your life. And it genuinely does feel like that, that I would do all this for free. I just wish I had two of me or more days in the week to get it done, but I genuinely would do it for free because I love it that much and really passionate about it. So yeah, it's, it's definitely where I see my future.

Sue Anstiss:

Thanks so much to Jodie for talking to me today. I'm so excited for the Rugby League World Cup later this year, it all kicks off on October the 15th and I'll share details for ticket sales in the show notes.

If you'd like to hear about other women driving change across sport, do visit fearlesswomen.co.uk, where there are details of all of my guests from this and the previous series. You can also listen to all of the podcasts on the website and find out about the Women's Sport Collective a free network for all women working in sport. You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport. And there's more about my book Game On! the unstoppable rise of Women's Sport. Thanks again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers through the National Lottery and to our production team at What Goes on Media, including executive producer, Sam Walker, and Rory Auskerry.

Finally, thanks to my brilliant colleague. Kate Hannon at Fearless Women.  

Do come and say hello on social media where you'll find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook @SueAnstiss. And if you have a couple of minutes, it would be great. If you could rate or review the podcast, as it makes a big difference to help us reach new audiences.

The Game Changers,  fearless women in sport.