Ali Donnelly: The real story of women's rugby

Ali Donnelly is Executive Director of Digital, Marketing and Communications at Sport England.  

She is a former Senior Civil Servant, who worked at Downing Street where she was the Prime Minister's Deputy Official Spokesperson and the Head of News.

Ali was previously Head of Communications at Premiership Rugby club Wasps and has also worked in media and public affairs roles at the BBC have started her career as a journalist at the Evening Echo newspaper in Ireland. 

A passionate women's rugby fan and campaigner Ali also runs the award-winning website Scrumqueens and is Director of Women's Rugby at Teddington and a member of the RFU’s Rugby Growth Committee. Her new book is called:  'Scrum Queens - The History of Women's Rugby'. 

Along with exploring Ali’s career pathway in sport and business, we review the current state of play for women’s rugby and the potential with 2025 World Cup on the horizon in England. What more needs to change for equality in women’s sport and to ensure young women don’t stop being active in their teenage age years?

Thanks to Sport England who support The Game Changers through the National Lottery.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Transcript

Sue Anstiss:        Hello and welcome to the Game Changers, the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing womenin sport, who are literally knocking down barriers to challenge the status quo for women and girls across society. I'm Sue Anstiss and I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners Sport England, who support the Game Changers through the National Lottery and by way of lovely coincidence my guest today is from Sport England. Ali Donnelly is the executive director of digital marketing and communications having joined sport England in 2019. She's a former senior civil servant who worked at Downing Street where she was the Prime minister's deputy official spokesperson and the head of news. Ali was previously head of communications at premiership rugby club Wasps and has also worked in media and public affairs roles at the BBC, having started her career as a journalist at the Evening Echo newspaper in Ireland. As you'll hear, Ali is a passionate women's rugby fan and a campaigner and runs the award winning website, Scrum Queens. She's also director of women's rugby at her club Teddington and is a member of the RFU rugby growth committee. 

Sue Anstiss:        Ali, why rugby? Where did it all start for you?

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, so when I was growing up in, in Cork in Ireland, rugby was frankly seen by me and my five brothers as a, a posh sport who, you know, we didn't know anyone involved in it, deathly dull loads of stoppages, very boring. And what happened was I moved house. So we moved from a one village to the middle of nowhere, frankly, and the nearest town had had a women's rugby team, someone mentioned it to me and although I'd primarily been playing kind of Gaelic games up to that point, I felt, well, why not give it a go? I was about 15. And I think a lot of people describe this when they find their sport, but I just knew,  soon as I started playing immediately, this was, this was my sport. And it was, I guess, a combination of the physical nature of the sport, which suited the style of, sport I played, less skill more kind of contact and physical, the better for me. And then I also think what was great was I'd been playing sort of age band, Gaelic games. So, you know, under 14, under 15, under 16, and suddenly I was surrounded by women <laugh> who had lived lives, you know, mums, teachers, doctors, you know, people who had, you know, 10 to 15  years experience, I mean, in life and in sport. And I just absolutely loved that. And I think there was something that appealed to me too, about the way in which women's rugby was kind of viewed and perceived, at, you know, there was definitely a lot of stereotypical, behaviour in and around the game and so on in terms of how people saw the game. And I saw that as a, a handy and interesting challenge to tackle. 

Sue Anstiss:        And you mentioned the Gaelic games there. So what had you played in the past just to give us a bit of a, a background to that really?

Ali Donnelly:     Yeah, so I think outside of Ireland,  it's not as well known as it should be that Gaelic football, which is a kind of cross between, um, what we would call soccer I'm almost loathed to use that word in England, but what we would call soccer and, and handball, so you can carry the ball, you can pick it up and you can kick it. And then Hurling the female version of which is called camogie it's the same, ultimately, but it's with a stick. So I guess there's some similarities to hockey and most, young people in Ireland will play that with their village. It's a very tribal, patriotic kind of setup and it's absolutely brilliant, the sports are very fast paced. It's high skill level involved and you know, most schools, if not every school play it. And so I was playing that all the way through to my late teens. It tends to be a sport that people play, women until their early twenties. And then they kind of move on. I think that's in part because we start so young, but the skills are hugely transferable. If you look at the Irish  women's sevens team, a huge chunk of them in particular are from Gaelic football. And some of them actually go back into it later and, and, you know, play afterwards. So there's a lot of, you know, around the catching, the kicking, you know, there's just, just the general bowl skills are very transferable. So yeah, I, I, I stopped doing that when I started playing rugby, though, when I moved to London, found myself a Gaelic football team, just to re immerse myself and get to know some Irish people here. So I played at Fulham Irish for a few years, and that was great because you had Australians, you  know, English, women, girls coming to play and having to like teach them the rules from scratch was, was great fun. The Aussies tend to be very good at Gaelic football actually, it’s quite like Aussie rules.

Sue Anstiss:        Yeah. It's quite brutal. Isn't it? I did watch some, I say in preparing for this, I watched some more videos and some past games, and it really is say physical, as you say. Has that ever gone across into the US? I'm thinking of people moving abroad and so on? 

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, it does, Australia and the US are the two kind of markets for where people will go. So we've seen in the last  few years, a number of very, very talented, footballers, primarily going to Australia to play Aussie rules, or in the AFL there. So that there's a real crossover there. So Cora Staunton who would be one of our, one of the most well known women's footballers in Ireland ever, she went across and has made a real success of that. And, and that's a professional path for women now to look at. Yeah, there are leagues in the US, particularly around Chicago where there's a huge Irish expat, I mean, the London leagues are, are, are also popular. They  tend to be, um, primarily for the Irish kind of expat community. So I guess there's not as much focus. What's interesting I think, you know, my wife and will talk about this often when we go home and she's seen, for example, an All-Ireland final with women, you know, there's 60/ 70,000 people there, you know, blows her mind,  about the profile that the game has there for women and about, you know, just the, the general interest and, and how little is known about that. And I personally think we've got these like amazing athletes and imagine if we could get them all playing rugby, I think we'd be fairly, you know, we'd, we'd be certainly in the top four nations in the world consistently. 

Sue Anstiss:        And that is interesting, isn't it? That huge following around,  Gaelic sports that women's rugby hasn't had in Ireland. So why such a difference do you think? 

Ali Donnelly:       Yeah, look, Gaelic games are way out in front in terms of popularity, and participation numbers way ahead of rugby. I think football as in the soccer version,  is, is also ahead of rugby. So it's just got that tribal sort of, it's what you do. If you play sport as a child, and also there's something really special about playing for where you live. So, you know, I played for my local village and I wrote in the book, I've just,  it's just about to be published at the, at the start around this idea that you grew up with that suddenly  you know, bump into reality as an adult, that everybody really cares about girls sport, if you won, you know, your  county final as a 14 year old, I remember getting in cars and being, you know, driven in convoy  up and down the village, you know, people would be hanging out windows and medals would be held up and everybody would come out and cheer and clap for you. And that's sort of how I thought it was <laugh>. And then I suddenly started playing rugby, became an adult and realised of course women's sports. So, you know, unequal, unequal in so many ways. So it there's something lovely, I think about Gaelic games, that connection to where you live, the heritage that it brings. And that's why so many people play it over and above other sports, 

Sue Anstiss:        But how wonderful isn't it, that equality that's almost quite sad, isn't it? Then you move onto other sports and realise that isn't there in the way that it was when you were growing up?

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, I think it's, for me, that was a real eye opener. I think rugby brought that to me because it also had, you know, I mentioned up the top the battle was not about being treated equally actually, what I realised really quickly was the battle is about being taken seriously. And, you know, I was really surprised about that. Not everything is the under 14 team winning the county final, actually people, people sort of laughed at women's rugby and thought it was a novelty. And, and that was a real shock to the system. 

Sue Anstiss:        And how did your involvement in the game grow and, and transition from playing? 

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, so I joined the IWRFU, at the time they were the voluntary governing body for women's rugby in Ireland. So I, I went to university, wanted to become a journalist so started writing about women's rugby because I was playing, and then a great man who has sadly since passed away called Mark Andrews asked me, I mean, I was very young. I was about 17, 18. Would you come and sit on our board and do some writing, you know, turn up to the women's games and try and promote it. And I said,  yeah, you know, I was about to start university. Why not? So I, I got involved then in the governance side of the game and moved to London in 09, moved away from that. And I think for me at that point, what I was very frustrated about, was that the women's rugby world cup was coming to London in 2010, I'd moved to London. 

Ali Donnelly:      There was really very little coverage in the lead up. It, it obviously improved enormously as the competition came into focus. And I think, I thought, well, I, I was now a journalist. I had some experience in the governance of the game. I knew people around the world, involved in the game, maybe I should stop complaining about lack of coverage and do something about it. So I then set up scrumqueens.com in 2009, primarily to promote the women's rugby world cup, but it's still going. So <laugh>, haven't quite managed to end that. But, yeah, it, it all sort of happened fairly naturally for me to, you know, if you, I sort of think if you've got the skills, ability and interest in changing the thing that you're moaning about, you should, and, and I guess that's how what's kept me  involved. I think, as a, as an advocate 

Sue Anstiss:        And you worked in communications at Wasps 

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, I moved to London, started as a journalist and then, and move, I moved into communications actually quite quickly for the BBC and this opportunity came up to be the head of media at Wasps, t was the men's premiership team, did that for a few years. At that time, the women were very much part of the amateur setup, so we didn't have as much crossover with them, at all. So that's different now, of course, and they're starting to align and merge more carefully, but yeah, I think that was my first foray into sports communications. And, and I guess over the last 10 years, what I've done in my career is flip between the two things I really am passionate about, sort of government and politics and sport, and all my jobs have tended to, you know, flip between those two, I'm back in sport now, but who knows in the future may go back into government again. 

Sue Anstiss:        And do you miss journalism?  

Ali Donnelly:      I think that's the beauty of Scrum Queens, right? I get to write often, as much, or as little as I want about women's rugby. And I guess, because we've got a credibility as a, you know, an entity and an author, a voice in the women's game, I get asked to write lots for other places. So I've written in the last year for the Times, you know, the Guardian, hopefully the Telegraph to, to help promote the book, uh, and back in Ireland for the Examiner and the IT and so on. So I get to have a bit of both.   and that's fun. I, I definitely, you know, want to keep my hand in there and do that, but I guess my life is changing and it's, it's harder and harder. So if you can do it and pick it up and drop it as you please, that that seems to work for me. 

Sue Anstiss:        And just going back then to your career within politics, obviously there's lots going on in Downing Street right now. Whenever things kick off, I always think about that madness and how it affects the press teams behind the scenes. So obviously that's exactly where you were for many years. What's it like to be in, in the thick of it in months? Like we're experiencing? 

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, so I was at Downing Street for, three and a half, four years primarily during Teresa May’s time. I was a civil servant, but in, in a senior civil service role where I was a spokesperson for her and would sit in front of the media, most days speaking on her behalf you know, putting out the facts around what we were doing and, and talking about our priorities, I think probably the hardest job I'll ever do in some respects and communications. I think there aren’t many jobs where you're asked to, you know, sit in front of the political pack every day and, and defend the government's records, promote its work, and be able to think on your feet in way that, you know, no other coms job, I think, or sort of comes close to. 

I mean, my time there it's, it's obviously always high stress and the hours are brutal and, and that makes it really hard for women actually, particularly women who have families. You know, the first summer I worked there, we had several national tragedies. We had Grenfell Tower fire, we had the terror attacks in Manchester and London and all the while, you know, over the period, we also had the uncertainty around her, her premiership, because she'd had that difficult election and Brexit was obviously happening and in full force behind the scenes. So yeah, it, it was incredibly difficult to be honest. I, I loved it in lots of ways because I thrive on crisis and, you know, I guess that's what I would consider myself a specialist in crisis communications. 

And, you know, I, I, I think I'm a resilient person, which is, you know, why I can juggle a lot of balls, but I, I, I, in the end it really burns you out. You know, there were times, I mean, often I would get up at sort of 4. 30 and come home from work at 11:00 PM. I mean, that's unsustainable in the long run. And then I became a mum, through adoption. So I obviously was able to work right up to the point where we had a baby, but it became very difficult after that to sustain it. And it looked like Teresa May was on her way out and there was a new PM coming in, so I decided that was the time for me to move on. But yeah, I think when things like this happen recent months, I check in with my colleagues who are still there, the people who end up working there do tend to be pretty tough mentally because you have to be,  and it's hard to last there otherwise you know, your, your job and who you work with is on the front page of the newspaper every day, that's hard. But all that said it was a privilege to do it. It was a privilege to travel the world with a Prime Minister, particularly a female prime minister.  I learned a lot and then I came to Sport England and thought, well, now I have to test myself in a world that isn't always mired in crisis, then the pandemic happened <laugh>. And so, you know, all those skills, I think, were pretty handy. 

Sue Anstiss:        Oh yeah. You're bringing it with you, did you bring that across?

Ali Donnelly:      HaHa, yeah. I'm starting to wonder about that actually, but things have settled down quite a bit so hopefully not 

Sue Anstiss:        <laugh> and what's that transition been like from, from government, to Sport England?

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, I think there was a big personal transition for me because I was moving on to an executive team and helping to run an organization, and not having, I guess, the luxury of being able to just look at everything through the lens of comms and marketing and then saying, this is the bit I care about and now I'm moving on. So you, you can't do that when you sit on an executive team. And so now it's more about thinking about the strategy of the organization and what are the decisions that we make as a team, which helps shape how everyone does their job. I think that's been a real personal shift for me and, you know, I've got a really great coach. Who's helped me to make that transition and, you know, to stop being the person who has their finger in every single pie and actually take a step back. 

So that that's been really interesting. I'm sure there are loads of people listening. Who've made that transition and found it hard initially. I think then from a work perspective, obviously the pandemic meant we had to really shift what we were doing and we had to get investment and funding out to the places that needed it to stay alive, frankly, in terms of their organisations, and what they did to make sure they survived through the pandemic. And then the other was really interesting challenge for me was how do we keep people active and you know, how do we shift and support and motivate people and give them the confidence and tools to do that when everything's closed. And that's, you know, that's really difficult and obviously activity levels took a real plunge. What I think's been pleasing is that we're starting to recover. And the last set of statistics we have about activity levels show us that things like team sports have bounced back really, really well. And, and I hope that we've been able to play a big part in that, by helping those organisations who put those sports on to, to keep going and to be ready to kind of spring back into action straight away. So, yeah, it's been a, it's been an interesting transition. I really enjoyable but certainly not, you know, not, not easy, 

Sue Anstiss:        You mentioned you had a coach there, is that something you have personally or is that through the job that you do?

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah. Through, through the job, actually, I think, you know, I, I manage a big team and I, I lead obviously through, through the role I'm in and, and she's really helped me to, I guess, to sort of step out of the day to day. I think when you work in places like number 10 and I was the head of news at the treasury before that, you're just constantly kind of firefighting you know, news cycles and, and media, and you're traveling a lot and you're, you're, I guess what I needed some help with was thinking about strategic, bigger picture, and how I can accept that. I have to step out of being involved in absolutely everything my team is doing, that's actually not that helpful to them. <laugh> um, so she's been great. just a really good person to be able to bounce off my, my fears, I guess, and my weaknesses,] uh, and to be able to attack those in, in a way that helps my team and helps the organization to be kind of the best it can be. 

Sue Anstiss:        You've almost had, and you mentioned this sort of dual career because alongside the biggest of communication roles, you've run, Scrum Queens too. So you alluded a little to how that started, but I'm interested to know the beginning. I've heard you say that you didn't want to be just be a fan with a typewriter. So what initiated it in the first place, what was that approach?

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, like I think I just, as I said, I was complaining about something and I realised I could actually do something about that. And, you know, I, I feel confident in pushing back generally on people who moan about things who I can see are in a position to change that. I had the skills and ability in terms of writing and, and, and setting up a website. I had some time <laugh> and I definitely had the motivation. So, you know, that, that, that I think was it for me. And also I could see it making a difference because at that time, hardly anyone was writing about women's rugby outside of the major events. So you'd sort of see everybody pull up two months before a World Cup, throw themselves into it and then park up the vans and leave for four years. 

Ali Donnelly:      Now that doesn't happen anymore.  and there were some exceptions, I always mentioned Stephen Jones with Sunday Times who has had a longstanding kind of supporting role in covering women's rugby. And, and I, I suspect, I don't know this to be true, but I suspect he's had to do that in the face of probable opposition from, you know, even, even, you know, his own editors and so on because he was doing it as far back as 91. So I think it was that for me. And then as it's gone on Scrum Queens, you know, there'll be people I guess, listening who know nothing about Scrum Queens or women's rugby, but I think we have a unique voice in the game. we know the players well, and we've been on the journey. <laugh>, you know, we've been campaigning and calling out inequality and celebrating success for a long time. And so I think when we speak or when I speak, I, I do think, you know, we do get a bit of benefit of the doubt that, you know, these people kind of know what they're talking about sometimes a lot of the, what we do with Scrum Queens is not visible. So it's picking the phone up to people saying, look, this is a disgrace I don't wanna call you out because it's embarrassing, but you've made a massive error here. Can you sort it out? And people tend to be quite receptive to that but sometimes you do have to do that, you know, and I've done that to World Rugby in particular, a lot in the last 10, 12 years, where I think something is wrong for example, until fairly recently, there were no women in the Hall of Fame and we wrote about that constantly. We wrote open letters and we said, here are the women who should be in it by the way and then lo and behold, we had an announcement that women were in it. And most of the people we put on the list were on there. Now I'm sure they would deny you <laugh> that there was a copy and paste there, cause there was never any recognition of, we didn't even get a reply to the letter, frankly, but I don't care. You know, I'm not in it to make money out of writing about women's rugby or campaigning on it, that's, I think helpful in some ways for me. I really respect people like Fi Thomas who writes about women's rugby full time but that's not, for me. I'm not good enough anyway, you know, she's much, much better at that. There are loads of people doing this, by the way, I look at the Euros and there are some really great websites, podcasts who I, you know, people who I suspect are not yet making loads of money, but might in the future, but are making a really big difference to the ecosystem. Women's rugby is not as far advanced as women's football, I think on that front. There still aren't like ten Scrum Queens but there are lots of others. There are great podcasts. There are people like you who are involved in loads of women's sport, but have a real interest in women's rugby, doing your bit too. So yeah, it's been great to see that growth. 

Sue Anstiss:        And it's interesting. Isn't you talk about the coverage in the past? I was thinking back just to even 2015 when the Six Nations that all the games were at the same time and it's mad to think of that now isn't it?  But it's so recent that they broadcast all the games at the same time

Ali Donnelly:      I know, I look, I think the momentum has built so much that people who run the game have had to think about women's rugby as its own standalone entity and for example, the way the Six Nations has moved to its own window, you know, I think on Scrum Queens, we've probably been asking for that or calling for that for about six or seven years. We, we sort of saw ages ago. That would be a good thing for the game, rather be knocking up against men's game in the under twenties. And now it's here. How great's that it's and it's worked. So, you know, the more the game starts to sort of stand on its own two feet and show that it's got promise as a sustainable kind of commercial entity with great interest from the public, the better. 

Ali Donnelly:      And, um, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't underestimate in England what the Women's Euros will do for rugby too. We've got the women's rugby world cup coming in 2025. The format will be different. There are longer gaps between games because of the rest period you need for rugby. The venues will be different and all the rest of it. But I think what they've done so well is shown the major events interest in women's sport. Like if you go to the games, I've been to a few games, it's not a football crowd to my mind, nor is it a women's football crowd in some ways, there is, there are women's football fans there, it's a major events crowd, and that's [00:25:00] different. And I think what they've shown is that you can kind of sustain that through a tournament. And, that's what we've gotta go after in 2025, I think. 

Sue Anstiss:        And any thoughts on how they take that? Cause clearly we are experiencing that with Euros now, but into the regular week to week games of women's games. Cause that is the big challenge, especially for football isn’t it?

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah. Really difficult. And I know that, you know, you can go to WSL games and there's still only a few thousand people there. I mean, I think it's about, you know, there is some leveraging you can do off major events, obviously it's about making  sure you've got all the structures in place to capture the data. So everyone has come through the door is targeted really hard. Geo targeted. Look I live in South-west London,  I'd be disappointed if I didn't have some kind of contact from Chelsea, who are only up the road in Norbiton,  Kingston. You know, those, those sorts of like smart techniques around knowing who your audience is, where there's potential for growth, et cetera,  all those sorts of strategies they'll be looking at, right? The FA are smart but it's hard. You know, we've got Premier 15s league in rugby, you know, hundreds of people turning up to games currently, we've gotta, I guess, and make sure that as that league progresses, there's investment in the marketing capability of the clubs, you know, the RFU are only be able to do so much, they don't live in the places the clubs are based. So it's about, I guess, making sure there's some investments in those clubs. I hope that doesn't get forgotten, the marking, the kind of customer segmentation, audience data, the stuff that sounds boring, um, but is really important. You can't get people through the door without it. 

Sue Anstiss:        I was gonna ask you about Prem 15. So obviously they've just released their new plans for the future last month and clearly lots of investment going into the new kind of format, new structure, but how much do you think it is about aligning it to the men's game and how much does it need to stand alone on its own? 

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, it's a really interesting point. I feel like inevitably there's, there's gonna be mirroring it's happening in women's football too. I think if you look at the Prem fifteens as a standalone though, like if you wanna bid to get into that league, it obviously helps if you already have existing infrastructure, whether that's physical, like a stadium or it's resource, like the team around you to support that team. So naturally some of the new teams you've emerged have had strong connections to the men's game, like Exeter Chiefs, for example. And I think we're gonna see a bit more of this. So London Irish, Ealing Trailfinders, these are teams and clubs that we know wanna get a much stronger foothold at the top of the game. So some of that's inevitable and broadly, maybe that's acceptable. I think I would say the challenge is to make sure that the women's programs within those setups are not sort of viewed as, as watered down or mini versions of what the men's program is in that club, because reality, the women's game, you know, needs in the long term, it's its own identity. And it's only gonna be able to do that if it's developed on its own merit and the system and structure around it is based on a game for women.  and you know, you don't always get that if you are suddenly kind of a popup version of the, of the structure that happens in the men's. And I I'd worry a little bit about that and in the speed to get things up and running and the speed to invest, to get players, Exeter again, is a good example of that, the speed to get players to come down there, I hope those sorts of things don't get overlooked because actually, you know, there, there is something so interesting if you take the time to look at leagues women's leagues that are further ahead of us. 

So I'm like obsessed with the WNBA for example, and what they have done in, in 25 years. We're obviously at the start of that journey, but they have managed, I think, to balance those two things. It's obviously a it's, it's sort of like a version of the NBA, but with their own franchises. And you know, that league has got its a really strong identity and it stands for things, they are really front footed about social justice issues, for example and they do things much differently to the NBA. And actually sometimes I think the NBA looks to them, and how they campaign and how they represent themselves. So I hope that doesn't get lost, in this kind of rush to, to set teams up and to get bids in that, meet the operating standards and so on. Cause I think that'd be a massive shame and actually we'll probably spend the next 10 years unwinding it if we can't 

Sue Anstiss:       What made me think about that was your talk about that marketing geo marketing, creating that fan base. Cause the fan base doesn't need to be the same as the fan base for the men's team too. And I think that's the danger as we just go after the fans that are already fans of the men’s team.

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah. And you know that that requires investment, right? You've gotta invest to find out it's the same thing at Sport England when we do, you know, large scale behaviour change campaigns or smaller ones, we invest time and resources in finding out who are these people, where do they live? What, what motivates them, what will interest them? And I guess for women's rugby, it might be accepting that it's gonna take quite a bit of time. There's a lot of games in a season. You, can have up to 20 games it's hard to get people coming over the winter the men's premiership finds that difficult. So I suppose it's about thinking smartly about bundling up games creating hype around formats and so on and so forth. But it's certainly gonna be fascinating to watch. 

Sue Anstiss:       Are you hopeful and excited for Prem 15s for the future? 

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah. cause I think the RFU have, you know, grabbed the bull by the horns and, and have set out, you know, a draft initial vision. There's more to come, I think on that. It will not be easy and there'll be loads of bumps in the road and they'll probably come in for lots of criticism and they'll get things wrong. Of course, they will, but no one else is doing it. And I think what we saw in 2019, when the RFU said, let's turn our England test fifteens team professional first country to do it, suddenly everyone's scrambling to catch up with them. And again, they're not all doing it in, in a way that I, I think is, um, potentially right or sustainable, but England have, you know, flicked over that domino piece. And I think they'll do that too at Prem 15s and we need trailblazers and, and there's no surprise that one of the most senior people at the RFU is an ex player, Sue Day you know, she's not the only person there, Alex Teasdale and many other people involved in this, but I think her role can't be underestimated and that's, and we might not touch on governance and leadership now, but you know, having people in these posts, uh, who understand the sport, who've been in it, whether as a player or administrator or a coach or whatever, uh, is really important and I, and I wouldn't underestimate the role that she's played there in getting this off the ground. 

Sue Anstiss:        And you mentioned there, I guess that juggling of Scrum Queens with other jobs and you also have a young family. So any advice for people that might be looking to take on other challenges like that alongside jobs, how do you make that work?

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, that's a great question. And, and to be Frank it's, it's like when people ask me, how do you find the time for this? I don't know the answer because I only know what I do. And  I'm not an expert in this stuff. I think it's about though. You'll never be able to give to something fully as a volunteer or as an advocate or on side, if you don't really, really care about it. I think what you find is the interest will drop away. So never do something that you think's just good for your CV because you'll never look in the mirror and say, I'm really giving my all to this and that feels rubbish. So I think it's about finding something that you really care about, and thinking what skills do I have to make a difference to this? 

Ali Donnelly:         You know, life's short, right? You wanna be able to look back and say, I actually made a bit of a difference thing to the thing I really cared about. So I think that for me would be it.

Sue Anstiss:        Brilliant. I love that. Yeah. You always find the time.  and as if you didn't have enough on your plate already, you've also, <laugh> written a book Scrum Queens, the story of women's rugby B, which is released next week where it'll be out by the time this podcast comes out, it'll be there and published. And I was very lucky to read an early copy and it is excellent. I learned so much when I did. So I just wonder, you've almost answered that, but, but why you decided to write it.

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, well firstly, there wasn't one. So nobody has published anything bar academic research, which is great, but not always accessible on the history of women's rugby. And I just kind of found that ridiculous. I kept sort of assuming someone else would do it, Interestingly, I know of two other women's rugby books being written right now, which is brilliant. So I like to think I, I maybe started a trend or I was a catalyst for more So I think, yeah, there wasn't one again. I was like, well, I mean I could do this, so maybe I should. So I, you know, it's been hard, I would say like history books are really, I mean I have such admiration for historians now <laugh> um, and also with the, you know, the same thing is true for other women's sports, a lot of the history is lost. Wasn't written down is, you know, spread all over the world in terms of like genuine like people's attics, scrap books club, you know, histories S and so on, um, newspaper archives. So the task of starting in the 1880s and getting to 2020, uh <laugh> was, was not easy. There's a whole bit in the middle. That's sort of missing the, the sort of forties, fifties, sixties, where I really couldn't find that much evidence of the game. And so hopefully somebody else will do that bit. Um, but yeah, it was great. And you know, I got to speak to some amazing people and got to know, I mean, some, you know, people ask me, what did you learn writing the book? And I'm like, well, you know, a lot!  Like how do you like distil that down? Like, it's a history book. I learned loads, but also I think just my admiration for these women, there were men too. But particularly these women who in the sixties to nineties just got on with things, you know, they just sort of did it all in fairly good grace, you know, really they really didn't have to the setting up of the, RFUW or the decision they took to run a test match, they just met up said, right, let's have a test match. And then, you know, Carol Isherwood tells this great story about  how they were like, yeah, let's just do it. And then they spent the rest of the meeting, designing the shirt, you know, it's like, um, that, that's kind of like, you know, they're just these amazing can do women who, whose stories are only really just being told. I mean, I think Carol's had a fair bit of profile cause she's still involved in the game, but there are others who people just kind of forgot about and they're just, they're just great women. They still are, you know, I've got to speak to loads of them and you know, and the same in New Zealand, you know, all these amazing women who were told you can't go to the 94 world cup, sorry. You know, like some of the best players in the world at the time. And they just got on with it and never, they did complain probably. But, um, I suspect we complain more now probably because we can make more of a difference, but, um, yeah, they're just, they're just great. And so I was, it was a privilege to tell their story. 

Sue Anstiss:        I love the idea of your telling the story and, and writing a book and then others coming others following. When I decided to write mine, I spoke to actually, I spoke to Anna Castle's agent and I did say to him, I'm a bit concerned.  I don't wanna be seen to be writing a book about women's sport, like Anna's and he said, it's okay. We can have more than one book about women's sport. It's like, oh my God, that's so true. And it's the same for you. I love the fact that people are now, you know, it's opened up for others to all feel that 

Ali Donnelly:      Oh, totally. And there's so many stories to be told. I mean, Alice Soper, who's amazing advocate in New Zealand. You know, she, she read it and said, well, I was gonna start giving you thoughts on things. You could, you know, flesh out a bit, but there were like hundreds. So, you know, maybe there's hundreds  of books.  you know, I skim over whole decades because like you just, can't, it's 120,000 word book. And there's like, there are whole years where I just sort of like throw a line in. Um, so I, there, you know, there'll be more to come. Definitely. And I'm excited about that. 

Sue Anstiss:        I was just going to comment on Alice Soper and I love the joys of social media and I don't know her, but I feel, I know her through Twitter and, and uh, yeah, through social media, so fantastic. Her connects women's sport in that way. 

Ali Donnelly:       Absolutely. Yeah.

Sue Anstiss:        And and what hopes do you have for the book? What are your ambitions for it?

Ali Donnelly:      Well, I'm absolutely useless at like, PRing it, which is ironic. Cause I work in communications and PR, because I feel a sort of slightly mortified that I'm PRing myself. I think if you are interested in women's rugby, clearly it tells the story of our sport and it fills in a lot of gaps for people around where, you know, where, where we've come from. And, you know, I really strongly believe that edict that, you know, you, you can't really celebrate your present and know where you're going if  you don't know your past. But also I think there's a lot of correlation, other women's sport. I've read loads of other women's sports, history, books and cricket, you know, hockey, football, all of us face similar challenges. And so there's loads of interesting crossover. And I think that that's kind of interesting for, for people to read about.  And, and there are some stories I haven't been told in there. There's a great story about my friend Lynn Cantwell, Ireland's most cap player absolute legend. I dunno if she's listened to this. Maybe I'll send it on to her. So she knows I said that, but she, you know, she played the 2014 world cup, having broken a couple of bones in her back, not so long before the tournament now she was, she was passed fit to play and that's the tournament. They of course beat New Zealand and blew the whole thing open and you know, created history. And she didn't tell anyone, she told one teammate and just stories like that, you know, the sacrifices people make to represent their country and the things that they go through and the rehab and all the rest of it. So there's stories like that just about tournaments, which I think are, are interesting. And, and then I think also what's happened in the game. So like where sevens has emerged from how women played such an integral role sevens had two rejections into the Olympics before I think the then IRB thought, okay, well we're gonna have to get women. It was for men only, right. The first two bids, um, and women were kind of shut out from the sport. So there's all of that. So if you're interested in that, yeah, pick it up, order it online borrow it off someone 

Sue Anstiss:        Buy it, buy it, don't borrow it, buy it. We'll put details in the show notes. I think the thing for me that I've found so fascinating was the similarities you say to other sports that knowing, seeing that women rugby has gone through exactly that same journey that other sports had done too, like disappointing and yet quite enlightening too

Ali Donnelly:      And, and in way it had it worse, right. Because the game was so physical and considered. So un-women's like, I’m inverting comments here.  You know, and that, and that prevailed right through the nineties, you know, until, until fairly recently. So it's had extra stigma, I think, unfair stigma to, to battle through and, and, um, hopefully the players of the modern era don't have that. 

Sue Anstiss:        And do you ever get frustrated when you see, we talked about the profile of the Euros and women's football, when you see the investment in that sport, or do you feel it's, that's just all good football women's sport, with your rugby hat on.

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah. I, I sort of accept. I think there are some sports further along the journey and football is definitely one of them. We, we should be learning that's much hoovering up the knowledge that they've got, particularly in England, you know, they've, they've run, they're running a pro league. They've now just done a massive event. That's been a huge success. So, no, I don't, I don't feel like I don't feel that at all. I think women's rugby hasn't always had the best support and representation from rugby. Not that long ago most women's rugby was being run by volunteers before it emerged and, you know, the RFU didn't get involved in women's rugby properly till 2007. I mean, that's not that long ago. So I think that that's where I get frustrated that we're playing catch up on a level that's hard to quantify, and that's not just because of the sport and where we're at. It's because often the people running it also kind of excluded and shunned us. And that frustrates me. 

Sue Anstiss:        And talking of frustration, it's been a pretty tumultuous few years for women’s Rugby in Ireland. I wonder <laugh> how long's the podcast, but maybe tell us a little bit about that, and I guess from a positive, do you feel they're in a better place now moving forward?

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah. I mean, look, the ultimate issue in Ireland was that women weren't being listened to and their voices weren't being heard and the system wasn't set up for their voice to be heard. And there was a kind of prevailing sense, not by everyone, but by many people, involved in running the game in Ireland, that they were essentially quite lucky to be there.  and, and Ireland for all its progress.  it, it can be a bit behind in terms of attitudes towards women. And so I think what happened in the end was the players just got enormously frustrated with that. They obviously experienced failure. They didn't qualify for the World Cup. And although they held their hands up and said, we weren't good enough. They also were saying, well, hang on a minute. We've been trying to say for years here that there are significant problems, and no one has listened to us. And so they wrote that letter, published. It became, you know, a huge story in Ireland. They, they, they went over the heads to their union and wrote to the government and said, we have no trust and faith in our union. I mean, that was a fairly seismic moment, I think, for women's sport, for, and, and brave. I think they were really brave, the players who signed that, and there are some players who didn't I get that, but those who did I think, and then I think what happened in the end was we had a new chief exec of the RFU and it aligned well, I think he, obviously, I think he's genuine and means it, but also it was a very good, it was kind of good timing, right. He needed, he could come in and be seen to be part of the new broom and fix that. 

But ultimately, it's the same problem women's sport often has, which is things when they, when, when  these big moments emerge negative moments, it's often because women have just been ignored or, or they've been sort of like, and we talked earlier about mirroring men's programs and that was happening in Ireland too. And it just doesn't work you've gotta kind of be open to understanding firstly, you know, some biological differences,  and in terms of structure and set up and, and second, some human behavior difference and then also things like your life, you know, if you are a mom you know, we've seen some really interesting stuff around white shorts and periods, for example, I mean the England women's rugby team often wear white shorts.  I was laughing because when that story emerged my club in Cork, we had red shorts because it was part of the kit that part of the colour we, we, we were ahead of the ahead of the time. We didn't know that. But it did make a difference, right? Like I never had to worry about that. So yeah, the situation Ireland is immensely frustrating and sometimes success can be the worst thing that happens because they were successful for a few years and everyone just thought, well, we don’t need to do anything more there. They're fine, things are changing, but you know, let's see where we get to. 

Sue Anstiss:        That was interesting. Cause as you say that, I remember watching one of the six nation games and I was like, come on Ireland. I can't remember who they're playing. And my husband said, but do you really want to do well because that doesn't give them the not ammunition, but, and I thought, oh my God, that's so true but I really do want them to win!

Ali Donnelly:      I had such an interesting example. I went to the Ireland England game at Leicester where they lost, I can't, I can't actually remember the score line, but it was something like 69 nil I think. And they held them to a couple of scores by halftime. And I was actually a VIP guest. And there were lots of people there from the RFU and someone on the RFU committee who, you know, I've been very critical of the silence of that committee, I wrote a fairly damning piece on RT, which was, you know, I don't think well that well received by <laugh> the RFU committee, but, you know, just telling the truth, I think as I saw it, and one of them said to me in half time, you know, I had written in the lead up that this could be, you know, when Ireland's worst result, we, the previous worst result, I think we had was 79 also against England. And this person took great delight in seeking me out at halftime and saying, well, you know, we're only two scores down. And of course the game ends, you know, almost the record score, and they dodge me after it's just this like slightly childish, you know, way of dealing with things. Instead of saying you know, actually you're right. You know, this isn't ideal. We're coming here. We're gonna get hammered. It's not really fair on the players. Why is that?  Instead of sort of this kind of game playing nonsense, you know, and I just thought that was very indicative of some of the attitudes we see in the game there, which are, I think changing, but not as quickly as I'd like, 

Sue Anstiss:        And how much is having senior women in those leadership roles, in those organisations important for those decisions? 

Ali Donnelly:      It's absolutely massive. You know, not just for the obvious reasons, like they bring the perspective of women but also because we've got loads of evidence to tell us that women on boards,  women in governance positions,  you know, that diversity helps organisations make better and more profitable decisions. We know that, right?  We've got evidence to say that. But I also think like one of the things I've learned at Sport England is around, we're doing a lot of work say with teenage girls and addressing drop offs and activity. And what we've learned is that actually you gotta co-create solutions with teenage girls. You can't just sort of top down do things. And we've got some really good examples of that, where things have worked in pilot ways and so on. And the same, I think is true of, of running sport generally, you gotta kind of co-create the sport with the people who either know it, or have a perspective that is very relevant to the audience, in this case, women, you don't have to be an ex player. You don't have to be an ex-coach, but you know, being a woman is probably helpful. You know, I'm quite proud of sport England of the work we've done on the sports governance code and in really working with governing bodies across England or in funded partners and making sure there's a strong, representation of women on boards, also looking at disability and, um, you know, culturally diverse communities too, but w women in particular. You know, we've got the evidence that says it will make us all be better at our job, so why aren't we doing it? But yeah, and the Sue Day example earlier is, is a, is a good one I think.

Sue Anstiss:        And you mentioned there, the work that you're doing in terms of teenage girls and, and that drop off out of sport, some of the stats recently were really shocking in terms of where we are with that. So I wonder what you feel needs to change, you know, a lot of the work I do is in that space of elite role models to inspire the next generation, et cetera. But is that having the impact as we're seeing the increase in, in profile, but not necessarily participation. 

Ali Donnelly:      Yeah, I think, I think in terms of participation, yes, it has, but not as much as people believe, frankly. I think what, what our evidence tells us is that so major events, elite events, you know, that, that sort of side of the house, it tends in terms of participation to help people who are already active or who have been active or maybe play one sport might, might try another. It isn't, there's not always the strong link between you know, moving people out of in activity, but obviously it does have other impacts and it, it is, you know, in other ways, it is motivating and it gives visibility and so on and so forth. I mean, we've been discussing legacy a lot at Sport England recently, we've got the 2012 anniversary coming up, Commonwealth games, the Euros, these are all things we have or are investing in. But I, I kind of personally think, we've gotta tell that story a little bit better. You know, visibility, enrolment is very important for sports that are not always given a mainstream platform, you've gotta really make, take your moment. So, you know, disability sport, for example, in 2012, women's sport now. But I think,  the truth is though [00:49:30] if you wanna actually turn that into participation gains, that only really happens when, you know, we describe this model of kind of confidence, opportunity, motivation, all those things have to come together and that's what we're focused on. So a major event might give you the motivation or the opportunity to do something, but not the confidence. That's what This Girl Can was about. For example, helping women kind of overcome their own fears and, and so on and so forth. So, so there's, so there's that side of the house. I think the other bit is about teenage girls. So, you know, really tricky picture to solve. I think we're starting to kind of, everybody does recognise that attitudes are shaped from a really young age.  and we've gotta be thinking about how we can improve and support kind of better experiences for girls, whether that's in school or out of school. One thing I mentioned is about co-creation. So we've got this product called Studio You it's a, a kind of Netflix style PE accompaniment for teenage girls. It's in one in four schools already. And we had this really terrible insight, which, you know, you've mentioned some of it, but we also knew that I think it's 49% of, of girls told us that they were not confident to take part in PE compared to 72% of boys. And they told us why, you know, they felt self-conscious, they felt shy, they lacked in confidence. So we spent a lot of time working with teenage girls. You know, we, we, we sort of did proper deep dives into their lives, their experiences, the practicality on the teacher side of what it's like delivering sessions. And I think this process allowed us to come up with a product that really spoke to them. So one of its USPs is offering kind of different disciplines, which are not kind of traditionally PE,  so dance, pilates, yoga, et cetera, delivered alongside, you know, the more kind of competitive traditional stuff. So it's still in our early days, but the take ups been high. Like I said, it's in one in four schools already and we’ll continue to push it out. And I think it's just about making sure we, we're not kind of top down delivering things I'm 39. I don't know what 15 year olds you know, are interested in. Just to wrap this point up, you know, it's not enough to imagine this sort of like link between big events, elite visibility, and participation. Other great magical things do happen, the country comes together, there's loads of focus and visibility. You can suddenly see a path for those who are playing. But if you're really talking about participation, particularly amongst teenage girls, a lot more work, needs to happen in the middle for those two things to link up. 

Sue Anstiss:        You've clearly been a real game changer in terms of impact you've had in women's sport, but what advice would you give to other people who are looking to drive change.

Ali Donnelly:      Like without sounding a bit Nike-esque, I think it's that anything is possible. I think it can often be overwhelming to look at a problem or an issue and think I don't have the capability to change this. You probably do. You might not on your own, you might, that' part of a networking group. You might, as part of a campaign you might join or, or whatever it is. and that's the way to look at it. I used to work with this woman at the treasury, I won't name, and she made impossible things happen sometimes, partly through a style, which I wouldn't endorse, but also she just believed that anything was possible. And it was like such a great reminder to me, not to just see barriers all the time. And, you know, I work for an arms-length body of government, and sometimes <laugh> things can feel really hard, you know, it's like, oh, we can’t do that. Well, why can't we?  Of course, we can we'll find a way to do it. And inevitably we do. And I think that's just true too. If you see, it might be, you look at a match and say, there's no one there. Why is no one there? Well, why aren't you going? You know, you can actually make a difference in, in lots of ways. It can be small. It can be turning up at a match, tweeting your support, encouraging your children to play, whatever it might be doing, what I'm doing, setting up a website, writing a book. It doesn't matter. You can actually affect change through small, small steps. And, you know, if you believe that it's possible to change something, it is 

Sue Anstiss:        Thanks so much to Ali for talking to me today, what an incredible woman doing so much for women's sport and more broadly for the sport sector. 

If you’d like to hear more about other women driving change across sport, do visit fearlesswomen.co.uk, where there are details of all of my guests from this and the previous series. You can also listen to all the podcasts on the website and you'll find out about the Women's Sport Collective a network for all women working in sport. You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in women's sport. And there's more about my book Game On, the unstoppable rise of women's sport. 

Thanks again to Sport England for backing the Game Changers through the National Lottery and to our production team at What Goes on Media, including executive producer, Sam Walker, and Rory Auskerry. Finally, thank you to my brilliant colleague, Kate Hannon at Fearless Women 

Sue Anstiss:        Do come and say hello on social media, where you’ll find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook @SueAnstiss. And if you have a couple of minutes, it would be great if you could rate and review the podcast, as it does make a big difference to help us reach new audiences. 

The Game Changers, fearless women in sport.